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Fixating on the Trinity

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
sankark
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Fixating on the Trinity

Post by sankark » 28 Jan 2017, 20:07

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOPz_fQjm9w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSDtCUZuUqM

At the outset, no doubt that the Trinity (SS, MD, T) were masters of the domain and have contributed immensely and immeasurably.

There is a atAnA opener in the first link (gOpakumArA) & a bEgadA number #2 (innum pArAmugam EnO) in the second link and they are not any way less to the other masterpieces of the trinity. Just picked two songs that I haven't heard before today, but that struck me as grand compositions.

So my question - what is up with the fixation on Trinity and they are the be-all-end-all for CM? Genuine curiosity.

Rsachi
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by Rsachi » 28 Jan 2017, 23:44

Sankark
I heard both pieces.
These youngsters are putting their best effort to showcase the krithis, as well as their own musical prowess. Very good.


We are not fixated on the Trinity. We are simply paying their due. This does not mean there are no other great compositions of merit through the ages.

I personally feel very attracted to compositions of Sivan, as also some works of ST and MV.

I feel starting a discussion asking why we are "fixated on the Trinity" is pretty much begging the question. Quite simply, the Carnatic music as we know it today is constructed on the solid musical platform created by the Trinity. Their compositions have been the warp and woof of all musical training and musical expression that we call Carnatic music. Quite likely that OV Kavi (Athana) or Duraiswamy Kaviyar (Begada) would readily say the same thing if they were speaking about our CM. To that extent, all other compositions we see in our CM are, I think, in one way or other inspired by the works of the Trinity. The sahitya may be conveying ideas taken from scriptures like the Bhagavata and Bhagavadgita and Ramayana, but pretty much the musical adornment takes a lot from the Trinity.

Listening to the two compositions, I could see a lot of this Trinity influence effect.

varsha
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by varsha » 29 Jan 2017, 12:34

Fixation can be understood only in the contexts of "Pre-trinity" and "Post-trinity" domains.

With Pre Trinity as guides - How on earth did these three conjure up these gems ?
With Trinity as guides - wonder how much of Post Trinity would have existed in the absence of Trinity's works.

sankark
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by sankark » 29 Jan 2017, 15:34

varsha wrote:Fixation can be understood only in the contexts of "Pre-trinity" and "Post-trinity" domains.

With Pre Trinity as guides - How on earth did these three conjure up these gems ?
My thoughts/queries.

I think except for 2 - 3 varNams by MD (sriranjani, thOdi?) & SS (Anandabhairavi), the rest were later day or earlier period (the ever green viribOni bhairavi predates the trinity period and there were also other varNams from before Trinity. Is that correct?). So the varNams are something that originated earlier and tradition is still kept alive but with minimal Trinity contribution.

padams - believe these also predate Trinity and I am not sure if there are any padam's by the Trinity

jAvalis, tillAnAs - later than trinity with no equivalent by trinity?

the kIrtanams (utsava sampradAya variety) that are of the pallavi (also perhaps anupallavi?) followed by many charaNams, as I understand PD and other dAsars have employed that format before T's time.

MD's s'bharanam nOttuswara songs - again the influence seem to be Western band music that MD's genius adapted to create a variety.

RTP - believe these have been in vogue since before Trinity and there aren't anecdotes of them performing much RTP's (or) authoring pallavi's (a la Chingelpet Ranganathan or TRS or RKSK)

Talams - Arunagiri seems to have been an adept at this and layam whereas the Trinity has mainly stuck to the sulAdi tAla genre, mostly c rUpakam, c/t triputai, k/m cApu, Ekam (MD mostly?) and rarely others.

So that leaves kriti's with p/ap/charanam and a trove of them. And even here, OVK seems to measure up/surpass in ragams handled, vaious tALams and gaits employed, spread of subject matter, except for the sorting out of pre/post trinity period issue. And if even someone by that name existed, which if proven to be not, brings us the next conundrum on who actually authored them then?

swarajatis - to me they appear similar to be padavarNams minus muktAyi/charanam. And more # of chittaiswara passages. For that matter, what exactly is the difference between SS's swarajatis & T's pancharatnams except for a lot of swarAkshara prayOgams in swarajatis. I recall posing this in an earlier discussion too. Did padavarNams exist before Trinity?

Is that a reasonable understanding/reading?

varsha
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by varsha » 30 Jan 2017, 08:52

what is up with the fixation on Trinity and they are the be-all-end-all for CM?
You will have to enlarge on
fixation on Trinity - whose fixation - when , where , how ...

they are the be-all-end-all for CM?
who said so ? I have never understood it that way .
May be you are trying to say something else , I dont know.
I am developing a love for the Quartet these days , for example, Jolly good fellows. :)

sureshvv
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by sureshvv » 30 Jan 2017, 09:02

There is an even worse disease. Fixating on a handful of trinity compositions. People insist that only one these "weighty" compositions be awarded that main or submain status. Sadly this precludes an entire volume of other very creative work.

Human beings are funny!

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by bhakthim dehi » 01 Feb 2017, 22:23

Fixating on Trinity is mainly due to the fact that the major corpus of present day compositions only belong to these three.

This issue can be addressed as follows:

1. Post -Trinity compositions were modeled based on the compositions of Trinity, be it sahitya aspect or the melodic beauty. With few exceptions, nothing is new in the compositions of Post Trinity composers.

2. Majority of the works or contributions of Pre- Trinity composers were lost unfortunately. How many of the forumites or the present day musicians were aware of the composers like Akkil Svami, Svayamprakasha Yateendra, Upanishad Brahmendra, Vaikunta Sastri and Kuppusamayya? How many of them will atleast be willing to know about these composers? Without even knowing the composers, how can we ever try to trace their compositions? when that is not possible, why should we blame the Trinity?

3. Not only due to their number of compositions, its also due to their versatiloity and ablity to innovate, their compositions are time tested and we are discussing about them.

4.
the kIrtanams (utsava sampradAya variety) that are of the pallavi (also perhaps anupallavi?) followed by many charaNams, as I understand PD and other dAsars have employed that format before T's time.
I swill proceed saying the variety brought about by Saint Thyagaraja with respect to the krithi format. His krithis can be classified into the following types:

1. krithi with pallavi, anupallavi and multiple charanams.
2. krithis with pallavi, anupallavi and single charanam; last two lines of the charanam resembling anupallavi.I think he was the first or one of the foremost to try a single charanam format.
3. krithis with pallavi and multiple charanams (with a tune different from that of pallavi).
4. krithis with pallavi and multiple charanams with the same tune.
5. krithis with pallavi, anupallavi and multiple charanam. Here pallavi and anupallavi will be having different tunes. Charanams can have 2 avarthanams with first avarthanam resembling pallavi and second avarthanam resembling anupallavi.
6. krithis with pallavi, anupallavi and a single charanam spanning for 4 or 8 avarthanams; each line with different tune in contrast to type 2.
7. krithis with pallavi, anupallavi and multiple charanam, each charanam having a separate tune. Pancharatnams and few other krithis like brochevarevare, rama daivama belong to this category.

This is the real innovation. No where, he has violated the rules of chandas or prosody.

5.
MD's s'bharanam nOttuswara songs - again the influence seem to be Western band music that MD's genius adapted to create a variety.
He didnt stop with this. I will now tell the innovations done by him.

1. krithis with pallavi, anupalavi and charanam.
2. krithis with pallavi anupallavi alone.
3. krithis with pallavi, anupallavi and chittasvaram.
4. Introduction of madhyamakala sahityam.
To my knowledge, he was the first one to employ the second and third type. In one krithi he has also composed 2 chittasvarams, one following pallavi and the aother one following charanam!

Is this not sufficient for us to fixate on the compositions of Trinity?

6.
So that leaves kriti's with p/ap/charanam and a trove of them. And even here, OVK seems to measure up/surpass in ragams handled, vaious tALams and gaits employed, spread of subject matter,
As mentioned by you, lot of ambiguity exist with respect to OVK. we can never keep him as a benchmark for comparison. Even if we believe those were his compositions, we can never compare the melodic beauty,as I have mentioned in another post, the compositions of OVK were greatly changed (this is also true for the compositions of trinity).


7.
what exactly is the difference between SS's swarajatis & T's pancharatnams
The difference is the former is a svarajati and the latter is a krithi! The later need not and should not be sung in a svara sahitya format.

8.
Talams - Arunagiri seems to have been an adept at this and layam whereas the Trinity has mainly stuck to the sulAdi tAla genre, mostly c rUpakam, c/t triputai, k/m cApu, Ekam (MD mostly?) and rarely others.
Thirupugazh were composed in chandas; i other words, they are meters. They are different from talams that we reckon. Both are not to be confused.
Last edited by bhakthim dehi on 02 Feb 2017, 10:33, edited 1 time in total.

Sachi_R
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by Sachi_R » 02 Feb 2017, 09:13

Bhaktim Dehi! Thank you.

sankark
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by sankark » 02 Feb 2017, 13:37

bhakthim dehi wrote:
01 Feb 2017, 22:23
why should we blame the Trinity?
No one is blaming the trinity, certainly not me.

SrinathK
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by SrinathK » 06 Feb 2017, 10:12

Greetings everyone! It has been a long time and my fingers have been very patient until now. But I have been coming and going, and very glad to see the site fully restored after that unholy hacking mess.

As far as I am aware of, the padam, javali, varnam, swarajathi and thillana in their current forms are all imports from dance. Their integration into CM's modern kutcheri oriented form has been an ongoing process since the late 19th century.

When it comes to krithis, we do have a fixation with the trinity, and for good reason. The most significant stat is that they have about 1300 known compositions between them itself -- it's a vast repertoire and even decades seasoned concert goers can still be surprised with numbers that they haven't heard earlier. It has taken quite some time into the 20th century even for Dikshitar's compositions to get as popular as they are today. The trinity simply put, came to the 19th century first. Their disciples popularized their compositions throughout the past 150 years, more than anyone else.

Other composers -- most notably OVK, Purandaradasa, Swathi Tirunal, Arunagirinathar, Andal, Arunachala Kavi, and Annamacharya are rediscoveries in the 20th century that got integrated into mainstream CM. OVK's integration is still an ongoing process. Papanasam Sivan is a 20th century composer, as are many others. And many of these 20th century composers have modelled themselves on the styles set by the trinity. The original music of most pre-trinity composers is long lost to legend, and they have been re-tuned and presented in what we may called the modern trinity based style as well. A completely new style of presentation, like a Carnatic concerto or so, hasn't gone beyond vadhya vrindas.

And that is the second most significant stat -- the original music of older composers is mostly lost and has since been retuned very recently.

The third factor is that the current explosion of CM repertoire and it's conversion into a composition oriented style of presentation happened mainly in the past century. As MMI once put it, it can take a decade for even one number to become popular and become the signature piece of a particular artiste.

The fourth and rather significant factor is the rasika. The average CM rasika who comes to a concert is a significant cause of what I term "musical inertia" -- they both sustain the music on the one hand, and apply the brakes on it's exploration on the other. The average listener has to take a lot of initiative to go outside one's comfort zone to familiarize oneself with new repertoire and musical styles, or else they end up demanding the same numbers every concert. Film music has successfully found the answer to this doing the exact opposite of what MMI proposed. It simply makes a new set of hit songs with every film (and most of which are forgotten just as quickly), while with CM it takes way more time as the music can't become popular without a lot of repeating old numbers. CM is not use and throw music.

The fifth is technology. Only now has the music of so many composers been available at the click of a button. It wasn't like that even 20 years ago. A handful of very proactive enthusiasts are responsible for all this music available so easily today. And you couldn't store large collections so easily as you can do today. So now you gave guys like me, who find out all this info in mere minutes, what took decades to know and create before the information explosion.

A couple of hundred years ago, CM meant Ragam, Tanam, Pallavi and Manodharma. Neraval originated from RTP and made it's way into krithis in the 19th century, first as improvised sangathis, then as full fledged improvisation. Now it's more composition oriented, more like Trinity composition oriented. CM has been changing all the time, and is still evolving and trying new things.

Now there has been a massive change in the raga system of CM in the 19th century, thanks to which a lot of Thyagaraja's music may have changed dramatically, and this effect has not spared any other composer either. OVK's tunes are also more or less modernized like Thyagaraja's while studies of his manuscripts indicated that originally his music had also followed the traditional system of ragas and phrases of his period. But that topic is for another day.

shankarank
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by shankarank » 07 Feb 2017, 03:37

I would ask a different question. Why the fixation on tunes as the basis on which we decide the state of a musical system.?

Tunes have never retained their integral form even within the span of somewhat tightly controlled musical dissemination ( golden period into current time).

Even layam ( being the strict fatherly thing that is) itself has not retained its sense the same way across known recorded history.

What differentiates composers of different era is more the sAhitya's laya than anything else. Arunagiri's compositions prove that you can paste a tune and make it live and select tunes that are evocative for the era in question!

rAgas structures are too specific ( too detailed and intricate) and too much subject to random variations over a large timescale of 100s of years.

If sculpture is not shiny enough you can expose it in various ways, different chAyams can be poured. Different dravyams can be poured on it!

shankarank
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by shankarank » 07 Feb 2017, 03:58

That said the tuning of tiruppAvai and certain tiruppugazh done by experienced musicians seem to indicate their deep awareness of the metrical structure (chandas) of the rAga phrasings ( short-longs) to select and match against the metrical structure (chandas) of the sAhitya at critical points of entry , take off etc.

The rasa bhava also played into it definitely and when that happens that is a magic.

There may also be more than one solution possible, but they did stay within the known appealing set.

E.g: Ongi ulagalanda in Arabhi ( vIra or adbhuta rasa matches), vanGa kaDal kadainta in suruTTi.

marukulaviya - pUrvi kalyaNi - chandas match for the take off.

shankarank
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by shankarank » 12 Feb 2017, 11:40

bhakthim dehi wrote:
01 Feb 2017, 22:23

6.
So that leaves kriti's with p/ap/charanam and a trove of them. And even here, OVK seems to measure up/surpass in ragams handled, vaious tALams and gaits employed, spread of subject matter,
As mentioned by you, lot of ambiguity exist with respect to OVK. we can never keep him as a benchmark for comparison. Even if we believe those were his compositions, we can never compare the melodic beauty,as I have mentioned in another post, the compositions of OVK were greatly changed (this is also true for the compositions of trinity).
Historicity of OVK - we should not make it an issue. Just the sheer themes and grandeur of words should convince us to the greatness of the sAhitya. It should not matter to a culture, which treats scriptures as apaurushEya, if there are suspected interpolations and additions to a great body of work. All great works do ( TNS: idai cerukal illAta maha kAvyam illai)!

If one were to critique OVK's composition as performed today in terms of music, with the hindsight gained from not just Trinity's compositions, but also the experience and musical development on them through few generations there are things one can point out.

We have to refer to SIksha valli of taitriyOpanishad first anuvaka. vaRNa svarah | mAtra balam | sAma santanah. And then use this with a lakshyArta for musical context. OVK is mahAn for us and if anything upaniShadic sages can offer a critique on him. Here again lakshyArta that we impute to these adages is our own hind-sight gained from experiencing the music of Trinity, not just the pATantara, but also how they are performed in all their aspects of manOdharma as well. The latter part has our imprint and will be controversial nevertheless.

Looking from point of view of the Trinity, OVK conforms to all the components of the siksha in musical terms, except sAma which is taken as uniformity in pronunciation for vEdic context. For musical we take some liberties and impute the idea of uniformity in laya or kArvais, proportionality in longs and shorts. The aTAna kriti alternates between two speeds in between. So even if the rhythmic structure is well assembled, this creates hurdles for sAma the music.

A Mridangist is bound to notice the texture and flair differences in playing for OVK kriti and a Trinity one. In short in terms of laya, Trinity brought the vaRna/svara/mAtra/balam from prabhanda sAhitya together with the sAma (music) of varnams and padams, pallavis to form an integral unity.

You may ask what about the faster passages in MD kritis. MD's are self similar ( structure of the fast passages in terms of yati/viSranti similar to lower kala anupallavi or charaNam) to their slower ones and occur at the end - and reflect an intuitive progression from slow to fast.

bhakthim dehi wrote:
01 Feb 2017, 22:23
8.
Talams - Arunagiri seems to have been an adept at this and layam whereas the Trinity has mainly stuck to the sulAdi tAla genre, mostly c rUpakam, c/t triputai, k/m cApu, Ekam (MD mostly?) and rarely others.
Thirupugazh were composed in chandas; i other words, they are meters. They are different from talams that we reckon. Both are not to be confused.
Thirupugazh has scope to be taken and longs elongated , eduppus adjusted to fit into sapta tAlas. This should be done for vistaraNa. Sanjay has done pallavis with them - there is that cakravAkam CD of Charsur with apakAra nindai - and he may not be the first one to do this.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by bhakthim dehi » 12 Feb 2017, 13:42

Historicity of OVK - we should not make it an issue. Just the sheer themes and grandeur of words should convince us to the greatness of the sAhitya. It should not matter to a culture, which treats scriptures as apaurushEya, if there are suspected interpolations and additions to a great body of work. All great works do ( TNS: idai cerukal illAta maha kAvyam illai)!

I have placed everything on the table. My aim was not to raise a query on his historicity. My idea was just to say his compositions were mutilated.

sankark
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by sankark » 16 Feb 2017, 22:01

bhakthim dehi wrote:
01 Feb 2017, 22:23
1. Post -Trinity compositions were modeled based on the compositions of Trinity, be it sahitya aspect or the melodic beauty. With few exceptions, nothing is new in the compositions of Post Trinity composers.
Pretty broad stroke to diminish the stature of those composers and the compositions. Isn't it?
bhakthim dehi wrote:
01 Feb 2017, 22:23
2. Majority of the works or contributions of Pre- Trinity composers were lost unfortunately. How many of the forumites or the present day musicians were aware of the composers like Akkil Svami, Svayamprakasha Yateendra, Upanishad Brahmendra, Vaikunta Sastri and Kuppusamayya? How many of them will atleast be willing to know about these composers? Without even knowing the composers, how can we ever try to trace their compositions? when that is not possible, why should we blame the Trinity?
Something we should collectively grieve over, to have lost the information. Our oral tradition, while it has preserved vEdam recitation since time immemorial albeit with variations and differences, adapted to the gandharva vEdam seems to have failed spectacularly
bhakthim dehi wrote:
01 Feb 2017, 22:23
3. Not only due to their number of compositions, its also due to their versatiloity and ablity to innovate, their compositions are time tested and we are discussing about them.
If others aren't circulated in the concert platform and given more space, how are they going to be "time tested"?
bhakthim dehi wrote:
01 Feb 2017, 22:23
I swill proceed saying the variety brought about by Saint Thyagaraja with respect to the krithi format. His krithis can be classified into the following types:

1. krithi with pallavi, anupallavi and multiple charanams.
2. krithis with pallavi, anupallavi and single charanam; last two lines of the charanam resembling anupallavi.I think he was the first or one of the foremost to try a single charanam format.
3. krithis with pallavi and multiple charanams (with a tune different from that of pallavi).
4. krithis with pallavi and multiple charanams with the same tune.
5. krithis with pallavi, anupallavi and multiple charanam. Here pallavi and anupallavi will be having different tunes. Charanams can have 2 avarthanams with first avarthanam resembling pallavi and second avarthanam resembling anupallavi.
6. krithis with pallavi, anupallavi and a single charanam spanning for 4 or 8 avarthanams; each line with different tune in contrast to type 2.
7. krithis with pallavi, anupallavi and multiple charanam, each charanam having a separate tune. Pancharatnams and few other krithis like brochevarevare, rama daivama belong to this category.

He didnt stop with this. I will now tell the innovations done by him.

1. krithis with pallavi, anupalavi and charanam.
2. krithis with pallavi anupallavi alone.
3. krithis with pallavi, anupallavi and chittasvaram.
4. Introduction of madhyamakala sahityam.
To my knowledge, he was the first one to employ the second and third type. In one krithi he has also composed 2 chittasvarams, one following pallavi and the aother one following charanam!

Is this not sufficient for us to fixate on the compositions of Trinity?
This isn't innovation per se, IMO; but variations of a major theme (p/ap/(chittaiswaram - rarely original but added later?)/charanam(s).
bhakthim dehi wrote:
01 Feb 2017, 22:23
7. The difference is the former is a svarajati and the latter is a krithi! The later need not and should not be sung in a svara sahitya format.
Both are krithi - as in composed/chiselled/architected. So please bear me with me and throw some light on that cryptic (to me) point.
bhakthim dehi wrote:
01 Feb 2017, 22:23
7. The difference is the former is a svarajati and the latter is a krithi! The later need not and should not be sung in a svara sahitya format.
Is the "should not be" an common injunction or personal pref? Going by that the entire performing community is in violation of the injunction. If an injunction - why?

sureshvv
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by sureshvv » 17 Feb 2017, 10:11

sankark wrote:
16 Feb 2017, 22:01
bhakthim dehi wrote:
01 Feb 2017, 22:23
1. Post -Trinity compositions were modeled based on the compositions of Trinity, be it sahitya aspect or the melodic beauty. With few exceptions, nothing is new in the compositions of Post Trinity composers.
Pretty broad stroke to diminish the stature of those composers and the compositions. Isn't it?
Yep. Speak of "fixation".

sankark
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by sankark » 18 Feb 2017, 17:09

http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/pretrinity.txt
A few centuries later came four great composers in the 16-18th
centuries - muttutANDavar (16 century), pApanAsa mudaliAr (1650-1725),
aruNAcala kavi (1711-1779) and mArimuttA piLLai (1712-1787).

muttutANDavar was one of the architects of the kriti format as we know
it today - i.e. a piece with pallavi, anupallavi and caraNam. While
much has been said about later composers like mArgadarsi sEsha iyengAr
and their contribution to the development of this structure, the
contribution of muttutANDavar goes largely unmentioned.
Unsubstantiated opinion or has this been reasonably researched? Any pointers?

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by bhakthim dehi » 18 Feb 2017, 21:39

This isn't innovation per se, IMO; but variations of a major theme (p/ap/(chittaiswaram - rarely original but added later?)/charanam(s).
We are in an era where just jumbling up various genre of compositions is considered to be an innovation. So, I very well expected this will not be accepted as an innovation by many. But, if you consider the period in which the composer lived, you wont even ask his question.

Many unnecessary confusions can be avoided if you can read my posts carefully. those are not loose statements; rather an careful analysis of the compositions of Trinity. I mentioned the presence of chittasvarams only for the compositions of Deekshithar. If you had taken pain to refer to authentic sources of Deekshithar krithis, you will never get a doubt regarding the authenticity of those chittasvaras. They were indeed original.
I am aware of the fact that certain Thyagarajar krithis are presented with chittasvaras. I purposefully didnt mention them as they were all (excluding probably one) composed by his disciples.
If others aren't circulated in the concert platform and given more space, how are they going to be "time tested"?
It is the duty of a musician to search those songs and present.
Both are krithi - as in composed/chiselled/architected. So please bear me with me and throw some light on that cryptic (to me) point.
There are various music grammar books which give definition for these various genre of muscial compositions. You can refer to those. In short, svarajatis will be seen with a pallavi and multiple charanams, whereas a krithi will be having a pallavi, anupallavi and charanam (in general and not talking about those innovations). Also, svarajathi might have a jathi. Now, I hope you can understand my statement well.
Is the "should not be" an common injunction or personal pref? Going by that the entire performing community is in violation of the injunction. If an injunction - why?
Without adequate records, I cannot prove my statement. But, if you read the definitions for the various genre of musical compositions, my statement will definitely makes sense. Even SSI has admitted that the pancharatna krithis were modified to suit group singing. But, what are the modifications? No one knows.
Pretty broad stroke to diminish the stature of those composers and the compositions. Isn't it?
I dont think I have tarnished or demeaned the image of Post-Trinity composers by using the word "no new". This statement just tries to say not all of them have contributed something new than from the corpus contributed by the Trinity. Truth is not sweet always. Also, I have not generalised the statement. Read properly, you can find the phrase "with few exceptions". I think it will be of use if you can identify those composers who have innovated or contributed something new.

sankark
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Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by sankark » 18 Feb 2017, 23:52

bhakthim dehi wrote:
18 Feb 2017, 21:39
If others aren't circulated in the concert platform and given more space, how are they going to be "time tested"?
It is the duty of a musician to search those songs and present.
Precisely what I mean by "not fixating". Willingness of musicians and listeners alike to believe there could be as-good or better things off the reserve too and try. Ofcourse, it is ones prerogative to run back to the reserve if what one finds out of the reserve isn't to ones liking.

vilomachapu
Posts: 74
Joined: 06 Jan 2016, 17:20

Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by vilomachapu » 19 Feb 2017, 19:00

I have listened to almost all compostions of the post Trinity composers and none of them can even hold a candle to the compositions of the Trinity either in the sangeeta aspect or sahitya aspect. This includes Mysore Sadasiva Rao, Vasudevachar, Patnam, Poochi, Papanasam and all the other newbies. Fixating with the Trinity is not a crime in fact it is most realistic and proper. Take any raga and compare. Of course the Trinity have not composed in new fangled, light ragas like Tilang, Desh, Jonpuri, Misra Peelu etc. That is perhaps a crime for this generation of "rasikas".

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by sureshvv » 19 Feb 2017, 20:08

Like the rest of society, we have rasikas who just want to be "devotees" (See the "amma" madness all around). They don't realize that the trinity kritis are what they are because of the refinement & polish added by successive generations of vidwans. This is another opportunity for them to genuflect.

shankarank
Posts: 802
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by shankarank » 20 Feb 2017, 09:32

sureshvv wrote:
19 Feb 2017, 20:08
They don't realize that the trinity kritis are what they are because of the refinement & polish added by successive generations of vidwans.
The musicians' cleverness has not worked with lots of others - where are the nambi keTTavarilavu and anjikkin yAda kaiya!. You are giving the same "CM is just 100/150 years" statement - having a biblical bias. We have also named it Carnatic music in the Macaulay-an syllabus. You are looking for a prophet who should have defined everything in stone at a certain point of time in the past. Especially it can be called classical ( in the prevalent terminology) only if it was all created and known and recorded and notated before 1000 AD! No "sA"dhana permitted! And that is the real issue with word classical huh?! Ignore the fact that classical subtly means it is dead, and now ready to be post-mortem-ed in the mortuaries called Universities to now record and publish what was an oral living tradition and file patents also and become citation sources!

And sepoys proudly join the firing squad! http://guftugu.in/2017/02/thinking-and- ... cal-india/

The refinement/polish you talk about is actually the outcome of sAdhana in a guru Sishya parampara - and many times the guru many not be one physical person. Even the self taught musicians have to hear it first (Sruti - not read a notation) from the eco-system!

And it is not just you - sureshvv - lot of those who are defending Trinity here in fact look upon them as some kind of prophets! - while you don't seem to find one and hence take a different view from the former!

The clever people who "create" music dot all the pop-arts - and I don't know why we did not import them and declare them classical - like the Ilayarajas and Rahmans! - especially since we accept that the generations of musicians were OK to change the "original" biblical dogmas!

Devotee is still better than a sinner! But GB himself made nandanAr a sinner though - was he affected by biblical bias? - we ought to change that!

Nick H
Posts: 8170
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by Nick H » 20 Feb 2017, 14:18

I didn't know that Suresh had a biblical bias. I shall have to me more careful what I say about gourds!

sureshvv
Posts: 3420
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by sureshvv » 20 Feb 2017, 14:42

The one thing to look for in shankarank's posts are the links. They are very interesting/informative.

vilomachapu
Posts: 74
Joined: 06 Jan 2016, 17:20

Re: Fixating on the Trinity

Post by vilomachapu » 20 Feb 2017, 19:24

They don't realize that the trinity kritis are what they are because of the refinement & polish added by successive generations of vidwans.
Funny. What most vidvans have done is to mutilate and destroy the originality of most of the compositions. Adding unnnecessary sangatis, brigas, caring a damn for the mood of the particular raga or song, caring two hoots for the mood of the sahitya etc. And this crime was committed by all the vidvans starting from Ariyakkudi. In fact we have it on record that even Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer changed the way songs were rendered. That included vAtApi gaNapatim, chintayamAkanda and others. It was just the inadequacy and the weakness of the vidvans that they could not really understand the actual, true intentions of the Trinity. And we rasikas were misled into believing that the vidvans did a great job at bringing us and "polishing" the kritis, as if the trinity were mediocre musicians. When what the vidvans actually did was to destroy the music of the Trinity. This is also borne out by the few recordings we have of the Thillaistanam disciples who have kept the original meTTus and style of T's songs. Also borne out by the notations of the SSP which are quite different from the rantings of musicians and the Dikshitar repertoire and Shyama Sastri repertoire of the Dhanamma family.

It is time for rasikas to stop running behind vidvans and hailing them as "saviours", in short getting duped by them and those rasikas who are saved from the duplicity of the musicians should try to learn from the SSP, Thillaistanam notations and from the Dhanamma family recordings. Reports of T centred lecdems at the MA in this months Sruti magazine reveals a lot about this matter.

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