Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Dear Rasikas,

I am starting a new thread devoted to value-assessment of OVK's works, since this thread is not appropriate for such a huge subject.

Ravikiran

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

MODS:
You may consider locking this thread.

vidya
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:26

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vidya »

Just wanted to place this on the record here.

1.Prof.SRJ said he was aware of manuscripts ending with the name "ArNava" such as RAgArNava etc in the Saraswati Mahal library. He says he has not perused the
contents of this particular Kannada work, "svarArNava". He says he has seen some references to these in Dr.V.Raghavan's, "Later Sangita Literature"
He however feels that the Narada-Tyagaraja legend is mythology.

2.He is also of the opinion that the Sangraha cUdAmani cannot be earlier than 1750 based on its musical contents.

As for the period of Oothukkadu Venkatakavi he has not opined either way :)
Last edited by vidya on 09 May 2011, 01:47, edited 1 time in total.

musicfan_4201
Posts: 199
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:34

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by musicfan_4201 »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: Read your own post!
Please follow your own direction! Stick to the topic.

As for the questions unanswered by you, please go through the posts. You will find several of them. Finding them may not be a difficult task.

Very unusal of your normal tone.
Perhaps gratuating to become a mod here :)

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

musicfan_4201, carrying a grudge long term, as evidenced by your being a pest about it in unrelated threads, in not good for your health :)

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Mr Shastry,

1. Again I would recommend that you read Shri Ravikiran's book "Oottukkadu Venkata Kavi - Life and Contributions". It will give you answers for all the points you have posted in post no. 70

2. One striking point that I wanted to clarify immediately was at how you have jumped at making shallow points even without analysing and understanding the words used by the composer and instead presumed the meaning yourself.

You have clearly gotten confused between the words 'bodha' and 'bodhana' and given the wrong meaning for the phrase 'shreevidyOpAsana bOdhakara' in Shree Ganeshwara

bOdha is not the same as bOdhana.

Here are some interpretations of the word 'bOdha' for your understanding. I hope this will help you understand that OVK has not meant that Ganeshwara is preaching Srividya upasana

(H2) बोध [p= 734,2] [L=145794] mfn. knowing , understanding Asht2a1vS. (cf. g. ज्वला*दि)
(H2B) बोध [L=145795] m. waking , becoming or being awake , consciousness AV. MBh. &c

3. Pls read Shri Ravikiran's informative and point-perfect new thread "Value of OVK's contributions" in which he has answered your points on Shree Ganeshwara

4. I would also like you to answer so many questions about svararnava that were asked in earlier posts. You have not yet answered any of them

I wonder who ghost-wrote your latest post because many of the akshara bhangas(spelling errors) and lakshana bhangas (grammatical errors) that are usually present, seem to be missing !!!!! :grin: :)

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

Hamsa,your name is a ultimate one. 'para nindana' should not be there. You are calling whom as ghost? :devil: . it is in you :devil: :devil: don't use such words, which will lead you to the same. 'Yam yam vaapi smaran bhaavam tyajatyam kalevaram/tam tamevaiti kounteya sadaa tad bhaavitah//(one who has good or bad thoughts in his mind,ultimately he will attain the same.)'Iam not an english scholar;I even dont have computer knowledge also.(languages are only the means of communication;I am not writing any compositions here;If there is any grammatical mistake ,kindly rectify &read it. mine may be 'a baala bhaasha' having spelling mistakes;but remember,'Sarva bhaashaamayee Saraswati'.I know that Srividyabhagavathi is with me;she is only inspiring me to do this to unearth the truth.You asked a ragas list in swararnavam;It will be posted soon.For every word several meanings will be there in dictionaries.Bodha is such one;here it is used as I had quoted before. here Panchayatana nayaka is not Ganeshwara.Please keep the sahitya beside you & then you only can observe that, the 'dwiteeyaaksara praasas' are incorrect. May the blessings of Srividya bhagavathi be on you.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Dear sirs/madams, while thanking all the active participants for their exhaustive debate, I would like to express my following opinions :- 1) While sri Ravikiran has given wide range of works on OVK ( i even attended one of his OVK aaraadhana at BGSamaja couple of years back wherein, a madhyamavathi kruthi dominated the show for the saahithya and its meaning which was also so similar to old mysore veelya jaanapada geethe, sung during daughters' send off to in laws place ) , very little is done towards the detailed analysis of his kruthis, some of which has been exposed by Sri Shasthri, as regards to elementary errors in dwitheeya akshara prasaas, which rises doubt about his actual time. Does OVK composed these after trinity's period or is it the handiwork of someone else ?

2) More and more kruthis of ovk should be analysed in similar manner so that the credit due to his should be in its place and not an iota of doubt about the original compositions should arise. Analysis of several kruthis is the only answer as to time and place ( desha and kaala ) of the poet. I re-iterate Sri Shasthris words that these are and should not be aimed at discrediting the legend or insulting anyone. But to bring out the best learn more truths and realities of OVK. ( I wonder whether OVKs decedents are there now ?)

3) I request dear Hamsa to confine to comments or opinions on the topic or discussion alone, which are good right now. Commenting on the language or grammatical errors of musicologist is in poor taste. Hamsa ksheera nyaaya should be followed!! . we should not try to cold splash anyone on these lines. Only waste knowledge or analytical skills of musicologists should be taken and not the level of expression. It is logical if an english professor from Oxford commits g_errors and not musicologists.

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

Now that shri Ravi kiran in his post 74 has summed up the final conclusion and driven the nails firmly and as the initiator of the thread in his latest posting has not added anything pertinent to the point, let us say
May shri OVK's BODY rest in peace in his pre trinity grave away from ghosts.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

I too made some errors , which may give wrong signals . Please read, ... credit due to HIM (instead of HIS) and VAST knowledge instead of WASTE knowledge at appropriate place. Hamsaa, please pardon me for the errors.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

But ghosts are already there with their viththanda vaadas , nails are driven only on coffins and not on truths

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

sri ponbhairavi, if ravikiran summedup&stopped writing without clarifications about ovks mistakes,didnot means that this is the end ;ovk willnot be in pre trinity grave because, he was not born at that time Pl. don't kill ovk before his 'janmam'.

Enna_Solven
Posts: 827
Joined: 18 Jan 2008, 02:45

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Enna_Solven »

srikanthamshastry wrote:sri ponbhairavi, if ravikiran summedup&stopped writing without clarifications about ovks mistakes,didnot means that this is the end ;ovk willnot be in pre trinity grave because, he was not born at that time Pl. don't kill ovk before his 'janmam'.
1. Your post #1: "Since the very purpose of any inquiry or questioning is to find truth ,I hope these queries lead to a meaningful discussion and if possible to a logical conclusion ."

I say this again: You came in with a conclusion but concealed it with words that sounded as if you had an open mind for discussion. Taking others for granted is not polite.

2. There are two people writing under the id: "srikanthamshastry". I don't know if it is against the forum rules but it is not polite either.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

srikanthamshastry wrote:sri ponbhairavi, if ravikiran summedup&stopped writing without clarifications about ovks mistakes,didnot means that this is the end
I can understand that it is hard to keep all the various lines of the arguments straight. But you have not addressed or accepted or provided counter arguments to many of the clarifications Sri. Ravikiran had already provided. Instead you started a new line of arguments about OVK's lyrical and prAsA mistakes. if we go back to the initial posts, it started with a few well stated points from your side which Sri. Ravikiran had addressed more than once. There was also another link posted which addresses many of the issues you had raised.

Let us first wrap those lines of arguments of the debate : either agree or provide your counter points or agree to disagree and move on. Rest of the members here can judge for themselves based on the quality of the arguments presented. Let us do that, if necessary, before we go on in new directions that do not serve any purpose in establishing the time period of OVK.

It will be useful if you also provided your hypothesis/theory about the period of OVK and your well researched reasons for that.

Our members are interested in looking at both sides of the issue. It is normal in a debate involving two sides to talk up their side and point faults in the arguments of the other side. But debaters normally acknowledge any fair points made by the other side. So please acknowledge if any of your points have been adequately addressed by Sri. Ravikiran. We owe him at least that.

P.S. ghost-writing simply means that one is writing on another person's behalf. Stating it here so we do not start a discussion on that distraction. Please refrain from ghost-writing, if that is indeed the case here.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Even though the questions raised in this thread have been completely addressed by me and I have moved on to another thread, I am compelled to address some misinformation that I came across. My interest is to ensure that people are not misled.

1)
Stanzas or padams should not have odd number of lines excluding one, ie, it can have one line, two lines or four lines etc.
These are opinions written as guidelines by theoreticians of various eras based on what they studied and/or believed in. Practical music, which combines melody, rhythm and lyrics in various interesting ways is an infinitely bigger subject. Numerous examples of what have been claimed as doshas can be cited here. These are not doshas at all. These are the very beauty of our great system which is constantly expanded by brilliant minds through processes of evolution or revolution. Tradition, as GNB often said, is not a frozen thing but a constant dynamic process.

1. One of the most well known songs will establish this beyond contest.

Mahaganapatim - Nattai - Muttuswami Dikshitar (MD) - Chaturashra Ekam.

How many cycles of tala does this have in Pallavi? Three.

What is the 2nd syllable in the opening line? hA (mahA) What is the 2nd syllable in the madhyamakala in Pallavi? si. (VasiShTa vAmadEvAdi)

Perhaps, the poster is not familiar with this song?

2. Now, an example from the song the poster has himself mentioned - Saraswati Manohari (which I had the privilege of learning from the inimitable Brindamma).

How many lines does anupallavi have? Three.

3. Another well known song: Vatapi - AP = 3 cycles.

4. Moving on to Tyagaraja, how many lines do Shree manini (Poornashadjam) and Evarichira (Madhyamavati) have? Three again...

I can give hundreds more. But my point is not that. It is more that these are all not doshas if seen in the works of mega composers with proven track record such as Dikshitar, Tyagaraja, SS or OVK level composers. They sought to expand and explore newer frontiers, keeping one thing uppermost in their inspired and scholarly minds - their personal artistic visions. [/i]

However, if composers of lesser merit employ such things, they would no doubt be viewed as flaws.
But there is one prasa which is a must in literary works, dwitiyakshara prasa. In this, the second letter of the first word in every should be the same.
Again, incorrect. The poster would do well to study literature from North India, South India and learn more about this. Does the poster know, for instance that Kalidasa or Valmiki have not employed much of dwitiyakshara prasa? Does the poster know the reason behind use of dwitiyakshara prasa seen in some Sanskrit literature? Since that is not in context here, I will not bore readers with this. Suffice to say that another 'dosha' has been negated.

Also, note that the number of lines is 3 in pallavi which is odd both mathematically and literally. It is avartha bhangam. In other words, a stanza is not allowed to have odd number of lines. The same trend is followed in anu-pallavi and charanam by having 6 avartanams and 12 avartanams instead of 4 and 8 or 16.

The other thread covers this point but let me share a common sense perspective of it here. Cycle count of madhyamakalas are obviously half of what they would be in normal speed, since they are rendered at twice the speed.

2 cycles of normal speed + 1 cycle of double speed = 4 cycles of everything in normal speed.

Any student practising sarali varishais would be aware of this. Yet, the poster does not? Again, at surface level, it seems like a big point but it cannot hold water even with someone at a sarali varishai level.

To sum it up, reading a few books and quoting selectively does not add up to erudition. It is not even knowledge. It is just random pieces of improperly digested information. Music is about observing realities from various sources, listening, learning, contemplating extensively, analysing deeply, gaining vast experience and then evaluating carefully. Sometimes, the process can take years. It needs tons of patience, objectivity and humility. Hasty studies with wrong intent and negative mindsets about great people is not research. It can be dangerous and self-defeating.

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Thank you Ravikiran ji for another point-perfect and informative post!

Mr Shastry,

1. I would like to add 2 more examples to Shri Ravikiran's list of Dikshitar krtis that have odd number of avartanams in the pallavi.

a. Shree guruguha - Devakriya - Roopakam (Pallavi has 5 avartanams)
b. Amba neelAyatAkshi - Neelambari - Adi (Pallavi has 3 avaratanams)

So this proves that you know as little about Dikshitar as you know about OVK

2.
For every word several meanings will be there in dictionaries.Bodha is such one;here it is used as I had quoted before.
I wonder whether OVK himself preached the meaning to you for that phrase, through the invoked blessings of Srividya Bhagavati?


3.
brindaraka sena nayaka (sena nayaka of the devas).
Again, wrong lyrics. Correct one is nAyaka vara brndAraka which means Lord of the devas, not commander of Devas

4. You seem to be so kind to yourself about your bhangas, but so hasty and happy to scavenge for other people's mistakes!

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

..
Last edited by Ponbhairavi on 10 May 2011, 10:27, edited 1 time in total.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Sirs I am saddened by the way this debate is going on. I think most people are possessive and try to stick to their views without giving scant respect to the views of the other. In this manner the very purpose and spirit of the discussion is lost. For the first time i feel Ravikiran has erred in replying politely in his post no.90. Mentioning or citing examples of sarale varse to a musicologist or musician of repute will only discredit one's stature. It will be like spitting on sun. nothing short of it. If on expresses his or her opinion it is individual. who are we to make statement or jump to conclusion on selfless vaggeyakaras on who's creations many are making a living or millions have derived pleasure ? Statement without essence will hardly make difference and there can not be any buyers. Any way I am waiting for Sri Shasthris reply and reaction. I hope for the difference in approach while answering.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

OK, let us avoid off-hand remarks that may belittle the messengers in the debate. For 99% of the debate, it has been kept that way and it is healthy. Let us stick to the main topic. In fact, all of this could have been avoided if the topic of OVK-vs-Trinity and the evaluation of OVK krithis based on lakshana and lakshaya was not brought into the mix. ( the latter aspect has been moved to a different thread )

There is no need to hurry and wrap up this conversation as a few people have indicated. As long as it is civil even when it is contentious, that should be OK.

satyabalu
Posts: 915
Joined: 28 Mar 2010, 11:07

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by satyabalu »

*came to know of his composition "Sundara Natarajam" Karaharapriya.(see another thread of Ravikiran.
*Has anyone rendered this -available as link?Ravikiran can provide?
*TVG may help with his enthusiastic downloads in virtual time!

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

satyabalu

Here is a vocal rendition of Sundara natarajam by Chitravina Shri Ravikiran from a live recording of an OVK special concert at Carnatica's sahityanubhava fest

Accompanists : R K Sriramkumar - violin
Guruvayoor Dorai - Mrdangam

http://carnatica.net/shopping/product_i ... cts_id/103

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sureshvv »

mannari wrote:Sirs I am saddened by the way this debate is going on <snip> Mentioning or citing examples of sarale varse to a musicologist or musician of repute will only discredit one's stature.
Please don't be saddened. Sometimes Professors in Physics have to be reminded of Newton's laws. This does not diminish their stature in anyway. Just makes them more human.

sampath
Posts: 3
Joined: 08 May 2011, 10:47

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sampath »

I am referring to the post number 90, where Ravikiran sir makes a remark saying that shastry sir does not know saralai varshai!! I feel a musician of his kind should not make a remark about another musician this way. If he feels some point is invalid or not answered, he may point it out, but making such harsh statements insults!! I believe that this is not the intention of the discussion. Only when knowledge is accompanied with politeness and courteousness, it will glitter. I hope such things don't happen repeatedly. It will simply change the direction in which the discussion is heading!!

sampath
Posts: 3
Joined: 08 May 2011, 10:47

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sampath »

Again in post 91, the way hamsaa has replied to shastry sir is ridiculous. If you have great respect for Ravikiran sir, its good! Absolutely fine. But showing disrespect to another musician is shameful. You try to decide what shastry sir knows and what he does not know in your post. Let me remind you, this discussion is about OVK and not about how much Shastry sir or Ravikiran sir knows. Its better if you make not of this. You further make a point that shastry sir is trying to scavenge mistakes. Ofcourse, that is the whole point. One is trying to find the possible mistakes in others and trying to convey the actual meaning, with a good intent and to arrive at an appropriate conclusion. It is not to humiliate others. If you are not willing to take any of these and discuss, please back off.. this is not the place for you. You can contact Ravikiran sir later and ask what conclusion they have arrived at!!!

Singer_USA
Posts: 38
Joined: 21 Jul 2008, 09:26

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Singer_USA »

Mannari,

People making a big deal out of doshas and bhangas of divine composers should not cry foul when their own doshas and bhangas are pointed out. Shri.Ravikiran has already made it clear that there is nothing personal in it. To be able to compare songs of Trinity and OVK, one must have studied several compositions in both categories carefully. Readers would agree that Mr.Shastri has not demonstrated that. Any one who has learnt singing basic lessons in multiple speeds would be able to figure out that OVK has composed pallavi lines in multiples speeds and it not wrong. If he has clear understanding, Mr.Shastri would not have said that OVK wrongly composed 3 lines in pallavi.

While MD has employed such techniques in the simple but popular composition Mahaganapatim, and Mr.Shastri claims that Trinity has not done such things, what do you understand?

It does not sound like Mr.Shastri has studied compositions of Trinity and OVK well enough to draw comparisons.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

dear sureshvv , i think you got me totally wrong in your post # 97, when you said " Sometimes Professors in Physics have to be reminded of Newton's laws" I was referring the other way. It does not bring credit to the person who makes impolite comments on other person irrespective of what the other person is ' let alone a person of stature. "Yes master" attitude will not bring the facts out. on the other hand , one will be giving wrong signal to a person who is thriving hard to prove a point or two !

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Let me hasten to make it clear that my posts are about issues. And I have endeavoured to focus on the issues and clarified every one of them, as best as possible.

The issue in this instance is that anyone who claims erudition enough to 'prove bhangas and doshas' of mahAnubhAvas and misses such a fundamental fact like speeds and tala counts and repeatedly lists it as a mistake of the composer, leaves himself/herself wide open for credentials to be questioned. This is nothing against any individual.

Composers of the stature of Trinity or OVK are oceans of nectar and beauty. They cannot be measured with or by teaspoons in a lifetime - I include myself in the spoon category. We can approach them with humility and get to savour their works and enrich ourselves...

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

Sirs, when i read post 90 of a great vidwan trying to remind me the basics when i pointed out the doshas of OVK 's composition, if someone says: "These are the very beauty of our great system " i do not know how to react to say the least ! I am again trying to clarify this for the last time , in the interest of our heritage and music, not to convince someone having obstinate ideas. I am not going to react any further for i am convinced it is futile to explain over and again for the same points . Instead I will try to give the analyses of more OVK's composition , certainly not to defame or insult a musician ( like i was insulted repeatedly for trying to bring out the truth) as often as possible . I furnish the following details again for any fair people to decide as they deem fit and appropriate.

* On odd avartha topic few references are given in post 90 and obviously seconded without a thought in post 91 citing two more kruthis. They are " Mahaganapathim, Vathapi, Saraswathi Manohari etc.,. The three avarthas so practiced is the contribution of musicians after the trinities for which composers are not responsible !. The proper methodology of singing these odd avrthas should be done by singing in madhyama kala once, then the same sahithya should be sung in keeulkaala next. ie, exactly similar to the sarale varase : once in 1st kaala, twice in second kaala and 4 times in 3 rd kaala. The solution so given by sri Purandaradasa in bala pata should be known to musical prodigy , i am sure. { in mahaganapathim , what i mean as correct method is : " Vasista vaama devadi vanditha should first be sung in madhyama kala and same in Keelkala and again in Madhyama kala so that odd avarthas do not occur.) It is the responsibility of the singers and one who scripts sahithya with notation , to ensure this . Whether any significant work has been done to avoid these odd avarthas in OVK's compositions by the prodigy who cites saralevarse for wrong reasons ?

* Since the truth is always bitter, if anyone points out these odd avarthana mistakes committed by famous vidwans, the person indicating these will always be ridiculed for what some people do will become a law by itself even if it is wrong as per paddhathi. The post proudly says that Saraswathi Manohari kruthi was learnt from a legend. Very good. But no one noticed , including child prodigy, the error in method of singing the portion " Saraseehuraakshi in 1st kaala and Murahara Sodari in madhyama kaala thus creating odd avartha , which is a blunder. Agreed that same has been printed in several books , preached and practiced in similar ways including true legends. The actual and correct method of tackling this is : the entire portion from sarasihurakhi to murahara sodari , should either be sung in madhyama kaala ot do the thrikaala of the same as in sarale varse ( for which i thank the poster for reminding me ). The reward i get for mentioning this truth is the polite remarks as in post 90 like
" reading a few books and quoting selectively does not add up to erudition. It is not even knowledge. It is just random pieces of improperly digested information " I wonder who is in need of the same !.

* Thanks for the free advice and teaching liberally. Sorry sirs. i may not accept the same for my ancestors in Chintalapally Parampara, having over 800 years of documented history , is just not a couple of generations . My ancestors learnt from accepted great personalities like " Valajpet VRB, Pallavi Sheshayya, Mysore Sadashiva Rao, Karur Ramaswamappa, Ponniah Pilley, Palghat Anantha rama bhagavatar, Panju Iyyer etc, Many of my earlier ancestors like Sangeetha Raya Thimmanna, even received award from AdilShaw of Bahamani kingdom got award in 1610, OVK was not even born ! My immediate heads of two generations , My great grand father Chintala palli Venkata Rao and my Grand father Chitala palli Ramachandra Rao donned 'aasthana vidwan in several royal courts including Mysore , with whom this writer had the reasonably lengthier period of learning the several traditional finer aspects of music including on how to tackle odd avarthas. I am willing to demonstrate this to anyone on any forum

* At another instance , the same poster says Subbarama Dixitar was unaware of Annamacharya ! This proves that SSP has not been read properly. Because SDixitar has clearly refers "Pedda and Chinna Thirumalacharya and Thalapakkam Composers. Persons who spends more time on latching on somebody's grammatical errors like limpets should at least question the person instead of nodding for everything. OVK was not a Bhaskara raya's pupil at all. when this was proved irrefutably why no one questions the person who stated the otherwise ?

* Regarding dwithiyaakshara Prasa, It is the wonderful innovation and invention of South Indian literature . Valmikhi, Kalidasa, Dandi, Bhasa et al, belong to North India and hence followed NI culture which concentrate more on AnthyaPrasa , Anuprasa etc., BUT almost all our South Indian poets like " Kamba ( Tamil), Nannaya (Telugu) , Pampa and Kumaravyasa (Kannada ) , Eluthachchan ( Malayalam) etc, who were inspired by these great works of NI poets and either created their own poetry or translated, have compulsorily followed dwithiyaakshara prasa in their works. Also 'Kurul and Vennba' in Tamil, Haridasa Sahithya in Kannada, Badrachala Ramadasa and even Trinities in Telugu and Sanskrit have followed this as Sacrosanct . Our time greats like upto Dr BalamuraliKrishna have not violated this rule either , If OVK 's compositions contains these errors, it is there for every one to see where OVK 's order is . Can he be compared with trinities ?. What can one say about people who give examples of North Indian poets as examples for south Indian niceties ? They must study south indian literature right from basics thoroughly or ratherThey should read post 90 and follow what they preach others. Neither the Praasa, nor meaning should be at fault along with appropriate chandas to be a good vaggeyakaaras like trinities. I finally reiterate that OVK's parts of the kruthis do contain some errors , which are found in abundance with modern composers . Therefore these errors keep reflecting the fact that OVK is NOT a pretrinity composer nor possessed the standards of trinity. Hence forth all my reply ( if at all i decide to react ) will only pertain to the topic in the interest of our heritage not as reply to some impertinent or rude questions.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

On odd avartha topic - The three avarthas so practiced is the contribution of musicians after the trinities for which composers are not responsible
If so, how is it a dOSha of only OVK?!!
The proper methodology of singing these odd avrthas should be done by singing in madhyama kala once, then the same sahithya should be sung in keeulkaala next. ie, exactly similar to the sarale varase : once in 1st kaala, twice in second kaala and 4 times in 3 rd kaala.
This argument is absolutely with no authority. It is contrary to all practices of our great system. The proof of the flaw of this statement is obvious - not even the trinities' disciples have followed this, going by the well known fact that their versions have been handed down faithfully till date. Can the poster show a single disciple who has rendered in the way the poster prescribes above? Can the poster show a single treatise which says Madhyamakalas should be rendered thus?
The solution so given by sri Purandaradasa in bala pata should be known to musical prodigy
Indeed, yes! And it was not given for songs with Madhyamakalas! It was for varishais. Songs with odd avartanas are just that. And I repeat, they are not dOShas - whether it is MD, OVK or Tyagaraja.
" Saraseehuraakshi in 1st kaala and Murahara Sodari in madhyama kaala thus creating odd avartha"
The poster has omitted the examples of Shree Manini and Evarichira of Tyagaraja with 3 avartanas, which are not in Madhyamakala!!!.
Regarding dwithiyaakshara Prasa
I have addressed OVK's brilliant command of not only South Indian but also North Indian prAsa rules in the other thread. I refer the poster to kindly go over those.
If OVK 's compositions contains these errors, it is there for every one to see where OVK 's order is . Can he be compared with trinities ?.
We have to be consistent and take our pick. Examples have been given to prove that both OVK and Trinity have done this. Either
(a) everyone is breaking rules now and then (b) everyone has shown they know the rules but have chosen expanded the system.

Readers can make their own conclusions...

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Dear sirs, with post # 102 , sri Ravikiran is back with what is needed. More of subject and politeness. But sri Shastry appears to vent out all that he has unjustly taken, with so many details, it will take quite a bit of time for a commoner or simple music lovers to know and come in terms of the complicity involved. I feel sri Shastry could have been more diplomatic and polite in narration. In the next post Sri Ravikiran 's analyses to furious and harsh comments on OVK hurled, is to the point and polite. This is the hall mark of all learned ones and liked by all. Now that it is squared and a tie, in next T20 arguements can we expect more precise and healthy debate ?. My conclusion is USA has erred in not appointing these two analysts. They would have easily traced Osama much earlier with all the details with comparisions with their skill and knowledge alone !

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Sampath ji
If you are not willing to take any of these and discuss, please back off.. this is not the place for you. You can contact Ravikiran sir later and ask what conclusion they have arrived at!!!
Till I last checked, I was not aware that you had been freshly appointed as the moderator of this forum !!! If you are scared, learn to face them, dear Sir!! ;)
If you have great respect for Ravikiran sir, its good! Absolutely fine. But showing disrespect to another musician is shameful. You try to decide what shastry sir knows and what he does not know in your post. Let me remind you, this discussion is about OVK and not about how much Shastry sir or Ravikiran sir knows.
I would like to remind the same to you too. This discusssion is not about Mr Shastry's achievements, knowledge or vidvat nor about his lineage. It is about OVK. So lets focus on all the counter-points given by Shri Ravikiran that clearly answers and clarifies all the questions raised by Mr Shastry, including post no 104.

Enna_Solven
Posts: 827
Joined: 18 Jan 2008, 02:45

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Enna_Solven »

[edit] deleted comments.
Last edited by Enna_Solven on 11 May 2011, 08:25, edited 1 time in total.

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Mr Shastry,
On odd avartha topic few references are given in post 90 and obviously seconded without a thought in post 91 citing two more kruthis. They are " Mahaganapathim, Vathapi, Saraswathi Manohari etc.,.
In post 91, I had mentioned ‘amba neelayatakshi’ too that has 3 avartanams and does not have a madhyama kalam. So would be offering a weird solution for this too?!!
The proper methodology of singing these odd avrthas should be done by singing in madhyama kala once, then the same sahithya should be sung in keeulkaala next. ie, exactly similar to the sarale varase : once in 1st kaala, twice in second kaala and 4 times in 3 rd kaala. The solution so given by sri Purandaradasa in bala pata should be known to musical prodigy , i am sure. { in mahaganapathim , what i mean as correct method is : " Vasista vaama devadi vanditha should first be sung in madhyama kala and same in Keelkala and again in Madhyama kala so that odd avarthas do not occur.)
I am not even a prodigy but even I know that we repeat Sarali varishai only if it finishes in half avartanam. Shastry has again conclusively proved further ignorance about Sarali varishai !!! :grin: :grin:
Agreed that same has been printed in several books , preached and practiced in similar ways including true legends. The actual and correct method of tackling this is : the entire portion from sarasihurakhi to murahara sodari , should either be sung in madhyama kaala ot do the thrikaala of the same as in sarale varse


Any book of Dikshitar and other composers will underline sections in Madhyamakala which means that they should be sung only in double speed !!!!
Rendering a madhyakala section in slow speed as Shastry says is equivalent to murdering the composer’s work. This means that Shastry cannot read notation !!
Agreed that same has been printed in several books , preached and practiced in similar ways including true legends.


Do you mean to say that says all the legends who have been rendering this way and all the books published are wrong !!!??
Regarding dwithiyaakshara Prasa, It is the wonderful innovation and invention of South Indian literature . Valmikhi, Kalidasa, Dandi, Bhasa et al, belong to North India and hence followed NI culture which concentrate more on AnthyaPrasa , Anuprasa etc.,
Is there any stated rule in any book that stops a South Indian composer from using North Indian prAsa rules?
Also 'Kurul and Vennba' in Tamil, Haridasa Sahithya in Kannada, Badrachala Ramadasa and even Trinities in Telugu and Sanskrit have followed this as Sacrosanct .
This clearly shows that you have not followed post # 90 of Shri Ravikiran where 'Maha ganapatim' has been quoted as an example where the dwiteeyakshara prasa has been broken in the pallavi itself.

Yet another ghost-post from Shastry !

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

srikanthamshastry wrote: ... Hence forth all my reply ( if at all i decide to react ) will only pertain to the topic ...
Thanks.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

People: Why don't we let Sri. Ravikiran and Sri. Sasthri debate this in the manner they choose? These two are adults who can take care of themselves without defense from others. There have been rough patches but otherwise it has been quite informative. All these side commentaries with the personal putdowns and ridicule are getting to be annoying. Yes, one side would say they are reacting to the other side's ridicule. There is no end to it. Just stop that please. Of course, everyone can pitch in about points raised in the debate, ask further questions, provide a summary etc. but do that without bringing down the debaters.

Now back to the debate.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sureshvv »

@hamsaa: You make great points and these may stand out even better if you omit the mild ribbing which seems to distract Shastry ji from making his points clearly without anger.

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

deciding the period of a composer from some "doshas " is full of pitfalls. Hundreds of Rasikas who are watching this thread have an arduous job.I wish to put them on guards by citing an example of false syllogism which i read somewhere.I would put it this way:
" there are prasa doshas in OVKs compositions
similar doshas are found in modern composers
So O V K is a modern composer."
compare this with the following:
Socrates is mortal
any cat is mortal
So Socrates is a cat.
Shri Ravikiran has given many examples showing such doshas exist in Thyagaraja , MD , etc...
So these composers are also modern and POST TRINITY.!!

satyabalu
Posts: 915
Joined: 28 Mar 2010, 11:07

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by satyabalu »

Shri Ravikiran has given many examples showing such doshas exist in Thyagaraja , MD , etc...
can we say" kritis attributed to Thiagaraja,MD .". in lieu of what is quoted above?

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Of course!

doyoucare
Posts: 46
Joined: 07 Jan 2009, 23:11

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by doyoucare »

vasanthakokilam wrote:People: Why don't we let Sri. Ravikiran and Sri. Sasthri debate this in the manner they choose? These two are adults who can take care of themselves without defense from others. There have been rough patches but otherwise it has been quite informative. All these side commentaries with the personal putdowns and ridicule are getting to be annoying. Yes, one side would say they are reacting to the other side's ridicule. There is no end to it. Just stop that please. Of course, everyone can pitch in about points raised in the debate, ask further questions, provide a summary etc. but do that without bringing down the debaters.

Now back to the debate.
VK - Amen to that :D I would probably put the word 'annoying' in bold!

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

There does not seem to be any doubt about the authenticity of the krtis under discussion like Evarichira, Mahaganapatim, Amba neelayatakshi and others

As far as I can see from the above posts, Shri Ravikiran’s contention seems to be that these are not even doshas, but developments which have made our system one of the most popular in the world.

I feel that over reliance on books, however authentic, will imprison Carnatic Music to the confines of libraries.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Sirs again more noise is heard which are beyond topic. A comment like this will not bring to anybody when hamsa says "I am not even a prodigy but even I know that we repeat Sarali varishai only if it finishes in half avartanam. Shastry has again conclusively proved further ignorance about Sarali varishai !!! '' Obviously it is the beyond the capacity of hamsa to understand what sri Ravikiran or Sri Shasthry are saying on " odd avarthas " . A comment like that only proves one point.: The age old saying " yathaa raaja thathaa prajaa "

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Sirs please read in my above post "A comment like this will not bring CREDIT to anybody" instead of "A comment like this will not bring to anybody"

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Sirs I totally agree with post no #115 - doyoucare , what he says. It is high time we should leave the two learned ones alone for obviously they have their lot of their good time and put in a very very hard work to achieve such degree of knowledge. Sri OVK was unheard by many except by vidhwans of the caliber, before sri RK conducted workshops and demonstrations of his kruthis in aradhanas etc., Similarly what Sri Shasthry or sri MSA saying or their input is too good. Let us not give cold splash to anyone so as to drive one to disgust about the whole topic, who's main switch is MUSIC !!

satyabalu
Posts: 915
Joined: 28 Mar 2010, 11:07

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by satyabalu »

"Sri OVK was unheard by many except by vidhwans of the caliber, before sri RK conducted workshops and demonstrations of his kruthis in aradhanas etc., "!!!

* AS far back as 1960-64 ,NKB used to stay in Madurai months together &conduct kathakalakshebam in Thallakulam temple ,Madurai..
*We used to go &learn during his leisure @the place of his stay -I remember for a moderate fees of Rs.10/-per song including" Bhajanamruta -Nattai-One of the Suptaretnas" &one in Jayanthsri (NERADASAMA NEELAKRISHANA)-The raga I first came to know of through that Kriti.
*Ramnad Sri. Sankara Sivam permitted OVK songs to be rendered even during Thiagaraja Aradhana (of course at a later part of the prog).
*I have also heard doyens like TNS used to clarify with one elderly professor woman in Trivandrum those days on rare ones of OVK.She still has a lot of rare thillanas to teach I am told.
*I also understand that Sri. Tiruvengadu Jayaraman knew all the Saptaretnas.*Popular songs like Thaye yeshoda(MMI famous neraval in Kalinil silambu-those days this neraval used to be imitated by even uninitiated in places like Virudunager near madurai&,Alaipayude were doing the rounds in dance circles.

punnagavrali1024
Posts: 3
Joined: 12 May 2011, 08:55

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by punnagavrali1024 »

To be quite honest, the empirical evidence set aside, it is highly improbable that OVK was a post trinity composer. Considering that Sri Tyagaraja himself lived past the eras of both sri Dikshitar and sri Syama Syastri (approx. until 1847) and to think that a composer would compose almost 400 or so KNOWN krithis (each a diamond to be admired) and most of them be lost and then later discovered post Thyagaraja seems to be a tale of a stubborn skeptic. OVK's style of sanskrit in his compositions, as well as tributes/references to composers such as in Padmavati Ramanam and Bhajanamruta suggest a much earlier life span. Furthermore, it would be pure common sense to think that if OVK lived after the time of the trinity, there would be more reference/popularity/knowing of him in the music circle by a wide variety of scholars and musicians (considering the wide variety of masterpieces he composed), however we see the opposite when in fact most of the knowledge of him in the 20th century was confined to a select group of people.

Furthermore dealing with the odd number of avarthanams, in Sri Dikshitar's Ahiri Navavarnam, in the pallavi, specifically the line "sripura bindu madhyasta..." the avarthanam count for rupakam comes out to be 7. I think such "inconsistencies" can be attributed to the greatness of these respective composers and the artistic licences they can take in order to bring out the true essence of the ragam or portray bhavam.

It is a subjective argument to try and prove that OVK is not on par with the trinity. It is highly opinionated and cannot be proven with fact. In my opinion it is the higher route for all musicians to respect the great musicians, vageyakkaras, and composers of the past without belittling their achievements over petty arguments about the _____, ______, and _______ being better. Ravikiran sir said it perfectly when he stated how composers should be evaluated in terms of quality and substance. We should not be biased against non trinity composers because of insecure beliefs that no one before the trinity could be on par with them in terms of scholarship, complexity, or accomplishments. Carnatic Music was not spontaneous and I would strongly argue that the trinity did not see themselves as the patron saints of our great music. Our music has evolved over time. If this is true then why is it hard for anyone to conceive the possibility that OVK achieve the greatest of accomplishments attributed to the trinity, before the trinity?

Every great composer is a god given gift meant to keep our music refreshed and ever evolving. To stubbornly argue that one composer is lesser than others, without providing objective and accurate facts seems to be counterproductive.

musicfan_4201
Posts: 199
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:34

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by musicfan_4201 »

Scratching History beyond a point/limit is akin to velai illatha ambattan poonai mudiyai sarachan :) What difference does it make if OVK lived in the 1st century or the 22nd century!
Let us enjoy the beauty of the compositions be it OVK, Trinity, ST, or others and carry on >>......

Ravikiran has done a wonderful job on this and the efforts on popularising OVK kritis is indeed laudable. So does Srikantham Sastry who has vast knowledge. Lets take out the best and move on ....

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

you said it musicfan ! i second it. the observation on " what difference.... " is bothering me also. Hope we will have more informative and healthy discussion !

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

I completely agree with many of you. In absolute terms, the value of OVK, Trinity, PD, Annamacharya, Kshetragna and several other greats are beyond time-space contexts. Being primarily a student of beauty and quality, I have focussed over 90% of my energies on sharing only those with respect to OVK, over the last 20-25 years - be it concerts/lectures/courses/books/articles.

However, in the context of this thread, we can definitely say that the primary evidence - which is luckily available to us in the form of the descendants of OVK's brother's family as well as OVK's own works, assumes significance. Family records - in a country like India - can be accurate only to a certain extent but they cannot be off by more than a few decades. Even though Needamangalam Krishnamurthy Bhagavatar arrived at 1680s as the possible birth period OVK, my studies so far have not been able to take this conclusion at par.

Weighing all the available facts and corraborations I have shared in this thread as well as evidence from his prolific works, we can unhesitatingly conclude that

(a) the period of OVK's birth could be anywhere in the earlier part of the 18th cent.
(b) he was not and could never have been a recent or modern composer.

I will update rasikas as and when I unearth any more pertinent information. Meantime, I will share further examples to illustrate his multi-dimensional genius, which will enable all of us appreciate not only his distinct style but also the magnitude of his definitive contributions.

anoopnm007
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Jun 2010, 09:48

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by anoopnm007 »

Dear sirs,

it is indeed a ground breaking discussion going on here. As a keen music student, i found that certain points were left in between due to some distractions...

A major one is that Mr. Shastry conclusively tells that OVK is not a disciple of bhaskara raya. Assuming tht is true, since nobody proved otherwise, then whose disciple was OVK, or was he a srividya upasaka at all? if not, then what is the significance of his navavaranas?

Another interesting point is about attributing the number 9 to sankirna which was also lost midway. When was no. 9 given to sankirna and where is it mentioned? We know that trinities have composed in all 7 suladi talas which has everything except sankirnam. That again leaves room for confusion, i feel...

The third unconcluded point was regarding ragas like jayanthasri etc. for which we, common people, think the lakshya and lakshana were given by tyagaraja. But compositions like neeradasama again remains as an irony in which case is it possible that someone retuned the compositions like what is done for purandara dasa or annamacharya compositions...

In my humble opinion, I feel that the discussion would be incomplete without attending to these points...

Regards
Anoop.

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