Value of OVK's contributions

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by rshankar »

cmlover wrote:1. Apparently refers to Anjaneya thinking (manamODu) the Sun (kadiravan) for a fruit (kani) and trying to catch it (piDittAn). The story is wellknown...
Sri tulsidAs uses a variant of the same construct - his verse goes,
'bAl samay ravi bhakshi liyO tab tInahu lOk bhayO andhiyArO
tAhi sO trAs bhayO jag kO yeh saMkaT kAhu sO jAt na TArO
dEvan Ani karI binatI tab chAD diyO ravi kashTh nivArO
kO nahi jAnat hai jag mein kapi saMkaT mOcan nAm tihArO' In this version, hanumAn himself lets go of the sun at the request of the gods.

In either version, the conclusion is that the gods decide that he should develop amnesia for his extraordinary prowess - that is why, when he hesitates before crossing the sea to lankA, wondering if he'll be able to jump across, it needs jAmbavAn to rekindle his memories, and reaffirm his faith in his abilities.

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by rshankar »

Ponbhairavi wrote:The lone exception is ashtapathi 19(Mukhari) where the signature is Padmavathi ramana jeya deva kavirajagopalan-
Whose composition is the viruttam (starting with SrI gOpAla vilAsinIm...)that Smt. MSS sings before 'praLayapayOdhi jalE', which ends with the salutation, 'tam vandE jayadEva satgurum aham, padmAvatI vallabham'?

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by cmlover »

I thought the shlokas are part of Gita Govindam, all composed by Jayadeva..

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by Ponbhairavi »

rshankar, CML,
In bhajanai sampradaya before starting to sing the 24 ashtapathis of jeyadeva , the dhyana slokas( dhyanam about Jeyadevar) are sung. in common practice there are 3 dhyana slokas for jeyadevar of 4 lines each. the first dhyana sloka starts with;yadgopi vadanendu... which we find in OVK's composition. the second one starts with rAdha manOrama ramA and third one starts with sri gOpAlavilAsinI. Pralayapajyothi jale is the first ashtapathi. In keeping with the tradition, MSS before starting to sing the first ashtapathi starts with the dhyana sloka sri gopala vilasini. The dyana slokas are not the composiiton of jeyadeva and are not part of the ashtapathis Gita govindam). You can notice that the 11th stanza of the first ashtapathi ends with sri jeyadeva kave which is his signature.There is no Padmavathi mention here.
rajagopalan

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by cmlover »

Thx Ponbhairavi for the clarifications...

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

Namaste,

I have seen the padmavati ramaNam composition in a bhajan book published in the early 18th century by the Upanishad brahma mutt. I don’t remember if it had other OVK compositions. But the book predates Sri Krishnamurthy bhagavatar for sure :)

Let’s look at the composition for a sec. I might be stating the obvious here, but it might be of some value to revisit even the obvious.

Say you belong to an era a few hundred years ago, a basic veda adhyana and Sanskrit study at the bachelor’s level is expected out of you. Then you have the option to study one or more disciplines in detail. Vyakarana, Sahitya, Vedanta, Mimamsa, ,Tarka, Dharma Sastras, Agamas etc. Most pundits would have been VyakaraNa and Vedanta experts, may be along with pUrva mImAmsa. This is what would put you in the main stream even today.

Venkata kavi displays a very good grasp of all the mentioned shastras. But he should have specialized in sahitya, kavya and naTaka for sure. Probably that is why you see him adore Valmiki and Jayadeva. This in itself points to a very unique caliber of OVK. To admire Valmiki you need to be a kavi yourself, like kalisada. Valmiki is the Adi kavi form whom sahitya, al~nkara and other shastras emerge.

Jayadeva was not just a kavi, but he was an expert in natya/sangita/al~nkara/kama shastra as well. Which explains why OVK had high regards for him. OVK must have enjoyed singing Gita govind mahakavya often, in fact every line in the padmavati ramaNam points to the kavya itself.

We normally sing it from anupallavi, so let me explore it that way.

yad gOpi vadanEndu maNDala ramitam tad gOvinda pada candra cakOram shrI -

gOvinda pada candra cakOram - Jayadeva is like a chakora bird to the moon like Govinda’s feet.

Who is that Govinda ?
yad gOpi vadanEndu maNDala ramitam tad gOvinda - the one who is delighted by the moon like face of the Gopi.

Notice a few things here.

The anupallavi skillfully used the “yadgopi vadadendu maNdana” verse. Gita govinda maha kavya starts with “meghair medhuramambharam” as the first shloka. The first verse summaries the entire kavya. But “yadgopivadendu” is the magaLAcharaNa, which is considered as a part of Gita govinda kavya.

Krishna is qualified as the one who is delighted by the moon like face of the Gopi(Radha). Jayadeva uses this metaphor in multiple places.

shrImukha chandra chakora jaya jayadeva hare – 2nd Ashtapadi

rAdhA vadana vilokana vikasita vividha vikAra vibhaN^gam – 22nd Ashtapadi. This is traditionally the Kalyana Ashtapadi. Notice that there is no tying of the knot or any such ritual, but Krishna looking at Radha’s face and being delighted is the samyoga sUchana here. Now you can appreciate why OVK’s Krishna here is gOpi vadanEndu maNDala ramita.

Also the two reference to moon in the anupallavi are done with two different words. indu and Chandra.

Pallavi:

padmAvati ramaNam
jayadEva kavirAja
bhOja dEva suta
padmapAda smaraNam kuru mAnasa

At the beginning of a kavya or a naTaka the author is expected to say a few words about himself. Sri Thyagaraja swamy does this in Prahlada bhakti vijaya and Nauka charitamu. (rAmasvarUpuDanatagu rAma brahmArya sutuDu, ragarahituDu…. kAkarlAmbudhi chandruDu.. (Sorry if it isn’t exact. I’m quoting from memory. )

Here is what Jayadeva has to say about himself,

vAgdevatA charita chitrita chittasadmA
padmAvatI charaNa chAraNa chakravartI .
shrIvAsudeva ratikeli kathA sametaM
etaM karoti jayadevakaviH prabandham.h .. 2..

The first qualification he puts for himself is he is ‘padmAvatI charaNa chAraNa chakravartI” – The emperor who guides the foot of Padmavati. Jayadeva and padmavati were supposed to have been mate for each other. Jayadeva sang and Padmavati danced. Krishna is said to have given darshan to Padmavati and written the verse ‘“smaragaralakhaNDanaM mama shirasi maNDanaM dehi padapallavamudAram” verse. Jayadeva acknowledges this in the same song, “jayati padmAvatI ramaNa jayadevakavi bhAratI bhaNitam ati shAtam”

After this incident Jayadeva kavi puts padmavati in front of his name.

“vihita padmAvatI sukha samAje bhaNati jayadevakavirAje”

Notice how Venkatakavi starts the song with the phrase “padmavati ramaNam".


bhojadeva suta – the son of bhojadeva

Jayadeva himself mentions his father’s name

“shrIbhojadevaprabhavasya rAmAdevIsutashrIjayadevakasya” - This song gita govindam is the rendering of poet Jayadeva who is the offspring of shrii bhojadeva and ramAdevi.

jayadEva kavirAja padmapAda smaraNam kuru mAnasa – meditate on the lotus feet of Jayadeva kavi.

Jayadeva kavi says meditating on the lotus feet of Krishna through Gita govinda kavya eradicates the evils of kali.

shrIjayadeva vachasi ruchire hR^idayaM sadayaM kuru maNDane .
haricharaNa smaraNAmR^ita kR^ita kali kaluSha bhava jvara khaNDane .. 8..

Make your heart listen to the auspicious saying rendered by Jayadeva, which is built up with the nectar derived from the meditation on the feet of yours, and which is an eradicator of fevers caused by the impurities of Kali yuga.

Venkatakavi wants to meditate on Jayadeva’s feet first.

..jayadeva kavirAja padmapAda smaraNam kuru mAnasa..

Sorry it became a lengthy post. I will post the charaNam if there is interest.

..kR^iShNArpaNam..

Enna_Solven
Posts: 827
Joined: 18 Jan 2008, 02:45

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by Enna_Solven »

Could you please give more details about the 18th century book that you mention in the first paragraph? thanks. It will put to rest the "1940 conspiracy" theorists' arguments.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

I will post the charaNam if there is interest.
Excellent points indeed. Do post the charanam too.

Although the surface meaning of the song can be obvious with a bit of study, it definitely enhances appreciation when the context is understood through commentaries with cross-references. Which is why, I have maintained that sAhitya should never be given any less importance than melody and rhythm - at least in the case of vaggeyakaras like OVK, Trinity etc. Every syllable and word was used intentionally by them and has significance, unlike many other composers who employed lyrics to structure their musical thoughts.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Say you belong to an era a few hundred years ago, a basic veda adhyana and Sanskrit study at the bachelor’s level is expected out of you. Then you have the option to study one or more disciplines in detail. Vyakarana, Sahitya, Vedanta, Mimamsa, ,Tarka, Dharma Sastras, Agamas etc. Most pundits would have been VyakaraNa and Vedanta experts, may be along with pUrva mImAmsa.
Precisely. These things were almost routine and normal for students at that time.

Similarly for music - one was almost expected to be decent with complex talas, gati bhedams or fluency in fast pace madhyamakalas (or jatis) and a host of other things that we consider challenging. These things were almost routine (probably along with rudimentary knowledge of music for dance/drama etc). They invested a number of years mastering these things. Therefore, the knowledge OVK, MD and T, which baffles us, need not be surprising when viewed against the backdrop of that context. Of course, they would have excelled in their era, which is why their works have stood the test of time and enabled us to telescope into the standards of that era. Also, since it was couched in bhakti and bhava, it was able to touch more number of lives than an average scholar would have been able to.

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

Thanks for the observations. I will try to post more info on the Upanishad brahma mutt book.

Here are the charaNa lines. Let me post in small chunks for easy reading.


kindubilva sadanam – He was a resident of kindubhilva.
Jayadeva himself mentions the name of his village in the kavya.

“varNitaM jayadevakena hareridaM pravaNena .
Kindubilva samudra sambhava rohiNIr amaNena .. 8..” - These descriptions are by Jayadeva who is like a moon raising from the ocean of Kindubilva”.

Researchers equate the ‘Kenduli village’ in Orissa to Kindubilva. There is lot of material on the web about this. I think there is a temple for padmavati in this village.


ati divya mangaLa vadanam - He possesses an extremely auspicious speech/ He has a beautiful face.
We can take the word vadanam to mean vANI rather than mukham. Speech is more appropriate in this context.

Jayadeva himself refers to the divya ma^ngaLa nature of this gIta govinda kavya.

shrIjayadeva kaveridaM kurute mudam
maN^galam ujjvala gItaM jaya jayadeva hare .. 8..

Oh, Shri Krishna, let this brilliant and auspicious song on you rendered by poet Jayadeva, be auspicious and rejoicing to the singers and listeners as well.

Cont….

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

[update]
sundarAnga shubha shObhita madanam - His beautiful limbs are adorned with signs of love/passion(mahA bhAva).
[/update]


This is a tricky one. Venkatakavi has a phrase ‘shathamanmatha jita mahanIyam’ in the krithi. Both phrases cannot be used to compare the physical beautify of Jayadeva to that of Manmatha.

This is a compound phrase declined in dvitIyA vibhakti. I think the word ‘madanam’ here means ‘adorned with passion’ and not Manmatha.

‘shubha sundarA^nga’ – auspicious limbs, ‘shobita’ – adorn, ‘madanam’ – passion/love. If you rephrase it we get ‘madana shobita shuba sundarA^Ngam’.

Jayadeva himself uses the word in this context, ‘madana manoratha bhaavitayaa’ , ‘vara madana madaat’. (madana-mada- love-pride, and madna-manoratha- love-desire).

Jayadeva himself becomes rAdhA or Krishna or the sakhi described in gIta govinda. His mind feels the same as them and hence his body exhibits feelings of these ecstatic mood.

Here is a popular verse by Chaitanya mahAprabhu where he longs for these,

nayanam galadashrudharayA
vadanam gadgada-ruddhayA girA .
pulakair nicitam vapuh kadA
tava nAma-grahaNe bhaviShyati .. (If you haven’t heard M.S rendering this in Balaji Pancharatnam album please do… It is very moving).


We will need some background in rasa-shastra to be able to understand this. Every mood or bhava of a hero/heroin exhibit different physical signs. Bharata in his Natya-shastra mentions these.(‘romaAncanaa kampana etc.’) These are called mahA bhAva in bhakti siddhanta works. Division like vibhASva, anubhAva, sa~nchArIbhava etc. are all adopted in bhakti siddhanta, but with a difference in locus. The locus is brahman/Atma/Ishvara. Upanishad verses like ‘rasovai saH’, ‘priyameva shiraH’ etc . support this view.

This is a very involved topic, my humble opinion is that Venkata kavi was an exponent in this. Notice his liberal usage of technical terms that are specific to this shastra.


Cont….

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »


sundarAnga shubha shObhita madanam - His beautiful limbs are adorned with signs of love/passion(mahA bhAva).


This is a tricky one. Venkatakavi has a phrase ‘shathamanmatha jita mahanIyam’ in the krithi. Both phrases cannot be used to compare the physical beautify of Jayadeva to that of Manmatha.

This is a compound phrase declined in dvitIyA vibhakti. I think the word ‘madanam’ here means ‘adorned with passion’ and not Manmatha.

‘shubha sundarA^nga’ – auspicious limbs, ‘shobita’ – adorn, ‘madanam’ – passion/love. If you rephrase it we get ‘madana shobita shuba sundarA^Ngam’.

Jayadeva himself uses the word in this context, ‘madana manoratha bhaavitayaa’ , ‘vara madana madaat’. (madana-mada- love-pride, and madna-manoratha- love-desire).

Jayadeva himself becomes rAdhA or Krishna or the sakhi described in gIta govinda. His mind feels the same as them and hence his body exhibits feelings of these ecstatic mood.

Here is a popular verse by Chaitanya mahAprabhu where he longs for these,

nayanam galadashrudharayA
vadanam gadgada-ruddhayA girA .
pulakair nicitam vapuh kadA
tava nAma-grahaNe bhaviShyati .. (If you haven’t heard M.S rendering this in Balaji Pancharatnam album please do… It is very moving).


We will need some background in rasa-shastra to be able to understand this. Every mood or bhava of a hero/heroin exhibit different physical signs. Bharata in his Natya-shastra mentions these.(‘romaAncanaa kampana etc.’) These are called mahA bhAva in bhakti siddhanta works. Division like vibhASva, anubhAva, sa~nchArIbhava etc. are all adopted in bhakti siddhanta, but with a difference in locus. The locus is brahman/Atma/Ishvara. Upanishad verses like ‘rasovai saH’, ‘priyameva shiraH’ etc . support this view.

This is a very involved topic, my humble opinion is that Venkata kavi was an exponent in this. Notice his liberal usage of technical terms that are specific to this shastra.


Cont….

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

You are absolutely right in your exposition on

sundarAnga shubha shObhita madanam...

A surface meaning of the song would have led one to assume that the poet committed punarOkti dOsha by repeating the theme in the MK phrase - shata manmatha jita. (Of course, this is again not a 'mistake' if a composer of proven merit intends to emphasise something occassionally.)

However, OVK has shown time and again that every word or phrase of his has significance. He has often used common words in uncommon contexts.

madana for love (rather than manmatha) is a good example of that.

A couple more similar usages:

chandra for beauty and charm (rather than moon)
bhaja - protect/refuge (rather than worship)

His vocabulary and comprehension of the language being what they are, such usages by him have definitely been brain-teasers of scholars, compelling them to dig deeper and enrich themselves in the process.

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

couple more similar usages:

chandra for beauty and charm (rather than moon)
bhaja - protect/refuge (rather than worship)

His vocabulary and comprehension of the language being what they are, such usages by him have definitely been brain-teasers of scholars, compelling them to dig deeper and enrich themselves in the process.
I can't agree more..

Just a couple of complementary observations. It is not the intent of these composers to explicitly do uncommon usages, rather usages and language changes from time to time, from one geographical location to another etc.

I think knowing what these composers knew helps a great deal to understand them.

Let’s take the case in point, OVK and the word ‘bhajasva’. As you pointed out; today the usage means pUjAm kuru (Worship) ,bhagavat guNa gAnam kuru (sing the praise of the Lord), sevAm kuru (do service) etc.
But the word occurs in Srimad Bhagavatam with three different meanings in multiple instances.

In praNaya gItam the gopikas tell Krishna,

maivam vibhorhati bhavAn gadituḿ nṛ-śaḿsaḿ
santyajya sarva-viṣayāḿs tava pāda-mūlam
bhaktā bhajasva duravagraha mā tyajāsmān
devo yathādi-puruṣo bhajate mumukṣūn Bhagavatam 10.29.31

duravagraha — O stubborn one, mA tyaja – do not reject, bhaktAH – your devotees, bhajasva – include us too.
This is the same bhajasva of OVK’s mAmapi bhajasva shrI tripurasundarI, meaning please accept me too(more like include me as well, Tamil - ennayum setukoyen .

It is a very beautiful usage. There are other places in bhagavatam where it is used the same way.

atho bhajasva māḿ bhadra
bhajantīḿ me dayāḿ kuru
etāvān pauruṣo dharmo
yad ārtān anukampate 4.27.26

“O gentle one, I am now present before you to serve you. Please accept me and thus show me mercy. It is a gentleman's greatest duty to be compassionate upon a person who is distressed.”

Krishna tells rukmini in karhicid adyaya.

athātmano 'nurūpaḿ vai
bhajasva kṣatriyarṣabham
yena tvam āśiṣaḥ satyā
ihāmutra ca lapsyase 10.60.17

“Now you should definitely accept a more suitable husband, a first-class man of the royal order who can help you achieve everything you want, both in this life and the next.”

Both karhichid and praNaya gItam are important portions that are committed to memory by sadhakas who have taken up bhagavata pArAyaNam. If you are like Venkatakavi for whom bhagavatam was a second nature, you are prone to use ‘bhajasva’ to mean accept me.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

But the word occurs in Srimad Bhagavatam with three different meanings in multiple instances.
This is most instructive indeed. As you rightly say, OVK was passionately soaked in Bhagavatam, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Lalitopakhyanam, Kanda Puranam, Periya Puranam and numerous other works which obviously makes it natural that he not only composed operas/songs based on these but also came up with usages which he may have assimilated from these.

Bhajasva must have been a natural usage for him but the word-scope may have shrunk later on to just denote worship which baffled quite a few Sanskrit buffs and musicians. (I had 2 of CM's popular artistes wonder about this usage with me about 10 years ago, which prompted me to find the meaning of the term and understand what the poet meant).

A similar case would be Tyagaraja using Shankara to address Rama (Shashi vadana - Chandrajyoti and Devarama - Sowrashtra). A surface level interpretation could lead one to wonder about it but the composer used it to just mean one who bestows good.

Among the puranas, Bhagavatam probably held a special place in OVK's heart. Even as we look forward for more on Padmavati ramanam, I am sharing another piece of his here in Shankarabharanam where the opening words are the ending phrase of its shloka (just like his piece, Vande valmiki kokilam).

shankarAbharaNam Adi

P: satyam param dhImahi (shrI)
ML: sarva nigama sAra bhUtamakhaNDa tattva rahasya niranjana sampada

A: nityam nigama para mukhyam panca bhUta
MK: leelAmaya nirvikAra nirguNa niratishayam niratajayam sadayam

C: janmAdi lOka kAraNa mUlam rasa
shabda rUpa sparsha gandhAdi jAlam
brahmAdi pramukha sadAnuta shIlam jIva
brahmaikya mOhita lOka pAlam
MK: sattva guNa bharita chitta nivAsam dharma rUpa vara bhAsaka bhAsam
matsya kUrma varAha narasimha vAmanAdi bahu rUpa vilAsam

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by rshankar »

Sankara or SaMakara can also mean 'creator (kara) of auspiciousness (SaM)', right?

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Sankara or SaMakara can also mean 'creator (kara) of auspiciousness (SaM)', right?
Yes... And T has used it in that context on Rama quite skillfully in the Sowrashtra song (Deva rama) I mentioned. In fact, he has played with that word in every line:

shankara karuNAkara ani-
sham kara dhrta shara bhakta va-
shankara danujAhava nish-
shanka rasika tyAgaraja

This is one of his pure Sanskrit pieces...

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by hamsaa »

Lovely observations, Seeksha. Thanks a lot for posting the interpretations on padmavati ramanam and the usage of 'bhajasva'. Very informative!

It would be very nice if you could post the meaning for 'satyam param dheemahi' too!

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

sumukhi ramAdEvi priyakara sutanum – Endowed with a physical body that pleases Ramadevi.
As mentioned earlier Bhojadeva was Jayadeva’s father and Ramadevi his mother. I think the line is “sutanum” and not “sudanam”, corrections are welcome.


saha paNDita samUha sEvyam - Respected by fellow poets/pundits.
-loke satkavirAjarAja iti yaH khyAto dayAmbhonidhiH –

There were several poets who lived during the time of Jayadeva. Research scholars who have looked at the texts written by these poets conclude that Jayadeva was held in high esteem by them.

Jayadeva mentions the following poets in the prelude. Umapati dhara, SaraNa, Govardhana and Doyi.

vAchaH pallavayatyumApatidharaH sandarbhashuddhiM girAM
jAnIte jayadeva eva sharaNaH shlAghyo durUhadrute .
shR^iN^gArottarasatprameyarachanairAchAryagovardhana
spardhI ko.api na vishrutaH shrutidharo dhoyI kavikShmApatiH .. 3..

All these poets are set to have lived during the era of King Lakshmana Sena 1179 – 1205. There are thirty or so versus attributed to Jayadeva kavi in a text called Sadukti. The poets mentioned in the above verse are mentioned in Sadukti as well.


shata manmatha jita mahanIyam - His physical appearance conquers the beauty of hundred cupids.


satata krSNa prEma rasa magna samAna rahita gIta gOvinda kAvyam - Author of the unequalled Gita govinda kavya , an ambrosia of perpetual love for Krishna.

The Kriti concludes with a epitomic praise. It summaries why Jayadeva kavi will live in the heart of Krishna devotees forever. The ‘krishnaprema rasa” in gIta govinda is so powerful or full of taste that all other tasty things lose their taste.

Jayadeva kavi himself concludes the Gita govinda kavya with the same note.

saadhvii maadhviika cintaanabhavatibhavatashsharkare karkasha.asi
draakShe drakShya.ntiketvaam amR^itamR^itamasi kShiiraniira.mrasaste |
maaka.nda kra.ndakaa.ntaadharadhara na tulaam gacChayacChantibhaavam
yaavacChR^i~NgaarasaaramshubhamivajayadevasyavaidagdhyavaacaH || 12-12

O! maadhvi flowers it is not sAdhvI (good) for you to pride over your intoxicating looks…
O! sharkare (sugar), you are karkasha (bitter) now…
O! draakshe (grapes) who will dryakshayasi (will look) at you…
O! amruta (nector), you are mritamasi (dead) now…
O! kshIram (milk), watered is your taste...
O! maakanda (sweet mango fruit), kranda (bewail) from now on...
O! kaantaadhara (lip of damsel) under-balanced is your taste…

.. krishNArpaNam ..

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

Lovely observations, Seeksha. Thanks a lot for posting the interpretations on padmavati ramanam and the usage of 'bhajasva'. Very informative!

It would be very nice if you could post the meaning for 'satyam param dheemahi' too!
Thank you,

This is a difficult one, I will give it a try. Please pardon me if I get too technical in Vedanta or if I just exhibit my lack of understanding of it.

This krithi is a verbatim reproduction of the first shloka of Srimad Bhagavatam. The essence of Srimad Bhagavatam is condensed in this one shloka by Veda vyasa. I am going to rearrange the krithi and the shloka to show the six major ideas conveyed here. I am just barrowing this approach from Venkata kavi. You will be able to appreciate his intellect in the way he had imbibed Bhagavatam and his poetic heart when he reproduces it.

Post to follow…

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

think the line is “sutanum” and not “sudanam”, corrections are welcome.
I had learnt it as sudhanam - treasure of Rama Devi. But su-tanum also seems equally appropriate...

I am looking fwd to your exposition of Satyam param...

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

A little intro… please be patient with me..

Essentially Vedas are divided in to two parts, Karma kanda and Gyana kanda. Karma kanda deals with all things that are to be attained in this life and beyond. Gyana kanda addresses a different problem, “what is the cause of samsara (human suffering/cycle of birth and death) and how to overcome it ? The Vedic portions that deal with this issue are essentially at the end of the Vedas and are called ‘Veda-anta” or the Upanishads. There are a lot of Upanishads, 108 have been selected and grouped out of which 12 are the primary Upanishads. Shankara, Madhva and other Acharyas have written commentary to these 12 primary Upanishads.

Having said that there are a lot of Upanishads, the question arises whether or not the Upanishads convey a cohesive idea or not ? Veda Vyasa maharshi took the pain to analyze all the Upanishad and develop a comprehensive work that showed that all the Upanishads have a unified idea. Seemingly conflicting portions where analyzed and reconciled in his work. This work is the celebrated “Brahma sutra”. Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva, Vallabha and other Acharyas have written commentary on the Brahma sutras.

Now comes our hero, Lord Krishna. He took the opportunity when Arjuna got confused whether to fight or not in the Mahabharatha war to teach him something. The dialog between Krishna and Arjuna cohesively arranges the teachings of the Vedas and relates it to real word problems that we face on a daily basis.

The Bagavad Gita qualifies as “Smriti”, the Vedas as ‘Sruti” and the Brahma Sutras as “Nyaya” pramANa. Together they form “prasthaana triya”. If you have read all these three works in light of either Shankara, Ramanuja , Madva or other Acharyas, you are a Vedanta expert :).

Veda Vyasa was still not satisfied,. He wanted to make something more, package all three above and put a very attractive wrapper. He wrote Srimad Bhagavatam as a PuraNa pramANa and made it accessible to everyone. Men and women, brahmana and sudra, Kshatriya and Vaishya, etc…

arthoyam brahmasUtrAnAm bhArathArtha vinirNayaH
gAyatrIbhAshyarUposau vedArtha paribriMhitaH

(Bhagavatam is an explanation of Brahma Sutra, bhAratha (gItA) and the Vedas including gayatri.)

So what is the content matter of this Vedanta shastra ?. Surprisingly it is very simple :), it explores the basics.


• Who am I ? (jIva)
• What is this world? (jagat)
• What is the Cause of me and this world ? (Ishvara)
• What causes pain and pleasure/(human bondage. ? (Samsara)
• What is the nature of a pain-pleasure free existence?(moksha)
• Means by which a person becomes pain-pleasure free ? (saadana)


the answers to these six questions is the first verse of Bhagavatam and in turn the Krithi of Venkata Kavi.

Cont…

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

As stated earlier this krithi is a rephrase of the first shloka of Bhagavatam.

Here is the shloka,

janmAdyasya yato.anvayAditaratashchArtheShvabhij~naH svarAT
tene brahma hR^idA ya Adikavaye muhyanti yatsUrayaH .
tejovArimR^idAM yathA vinimayo yatra trisargo.amR^iShA
dhAmnA svena sadA nirastakuhakaM satyaM paraM dhImahi ..


Let me present the main ideas conveyed in the Shloka and the in the Krithi side by side first. Then we will take up each portion and explore it a little and see how they answer the six questions that we had about Ishvara, jIva, jagat, bandha, moksha and sadhana. Finally see some of the unique ideas presented by Venkata kavi that help understand the shloka in light of bhagavatam in itself.

• He in whom the creation, sustenance and dissolution of this world is . Indirectly cognized as the material and efficient cause of it .

janmAdy-asya yatonvayAd-itaratsh-chArtheshh-vabijnaH

janmAdi lOka kAraNa mUlam

• He who is omniscient and self-effulgent.

svarAT

nityam
nirvikAra nirguNa niratishayam niyatajayam
dharma rUpa vara bhAsaka bhAsam


• He who revealed to brahmaa the vedA-s making him the aadikavi ( the first and the foremost poet) , the wisdom of which make the scholars (kavayaH – Rishi-s) wonderstruck.

tene brahma hRidAya Adi-kavaye muhyanti yat sUrayaH .

brahmmAdi pramukha sadAnuta shIlam
sarva nigama sAra bhUtam
nigama para mukhyam,


• He upon whom this tri-guNatmaka world caused by the fusion of fire, water and earth is superimposed.

tejo vari mRidAM yathA vinimayo yatra trisargo mRishA

panca bhUta lIlAmaya rasa shabda rUpa gandhAdi jAlam
satva guNa bharita nivAsam


• Who by His own light of Consciousness destroys this ignorance eternally.

sadA nirasta-kuhakaM

jIva brahmmaikya mOhita lOka pAlam
akhaNDa niranjana sampada


• Manifests with his own potency (in multiple forms like matsya, kurma, varaha, narasimha, vamana etc.)

dhAmnA svena

matsya kUrma varAha narasimha vAmanAdi bahurUpa vilAsam

• That Supreme Truth I meditate upon .

satyaM paraM dhImahi..

satyama param dhImah

Cont...

Vidyasankar
Posts: 3
Joined: 14 Jul 2011, 01:36

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by Vidyasankar »

• He upon whom this tri-guNatmaka world caused by the fusion of fire, water and earth is superimposed.

tejo vari mRidAM yathA vinimayo yatra trisargo mRishA

panca bhUta lIlAmaya rasa shabda rUpa gandhAdi jAlam
satva guNa bharita nivAsam
Not to interrupt your nice flow of thought and comparison, but let me insert
a small aside in this context:

The bhAgavata verse closely follows the chAndogya upanishat where only tejas,
ap (vAri) and anna/pRthivI (mRt) are mentioned, without explicitly noting AkAsha
and vAyu. This is addressed in the brahmasUtras (asti tu), which point out that
the five bhUta-s are mentioned elsewhere in the upanishad-s and should therefore
be implicitly understood in the chAndogya text. OVK's mention of panca bhUta-s
is in keeping with this brahmasUtra analysis. Interestingly, he explicitly mentions
shabda (attribute of AkAsha) along with rUpa (of tejas), rasa (of vAri) and gandha
(of pRthivI), but does not mention sparsha (of vAyu)!

Of course, the start of the bhAgavata verse itself resonates with the beginning
of the brahmasUtra-s ...

Regards,
Vidyasankar

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Seeksha and Vidyasankar,

Brilliant and enlightening indeed... Please keep it going.
OVK's mention of panca bhUta-s is in keeping with this brahmasUtra analysis. Interestingly, he explicitly mentions shabda (attribute of AkAsha) along with rUpa (of tejas), rasa (of vAri) and gandha (of pRthivI), but does not mention sparsha (of vAyu)!
Actually he has mentioned sparsha - I have quoted the first 2 lines of the charanam.

janmAdi lOka kAraNa mUlam rasa
shabda rUpa sparsha gandhAdi jAlam

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

#199 - Vidyasankar
Not to interrupt your nice flow of thought and comparison, but let me insert
a small aside in this context:
Please do not hesitate to share your thoughts or point out corrections. It will help us all learn.

The bhAgavata verse closely follows the chAndogya upanishat where only tejas,
ap (vAri) and anna/pRthivI (mRt) are mentioned, without explicitly noting AkAsha
and vAyu.
This is a very valuable observation. I was going to point to trivritkaraNa and pa~nchIkaraNa here. I also think Venkata kavi mentioning the pancha tanmatra-s explicitly is intentional and serves as a link between the two.


#200 - chitravina ravikiran

Actually he has mentioned sparsha - I have quoted the first 2 lines of the charanam.
Sorry I missed it while rephrasing. Thanks for pointing that out.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

satyam paraM dhimahi - I meditate upon that ultimate truth.

The word “dhimahi” means “upAsmahe – I worship” . A more involved meaning is ‘abhedhena dhyAyAmahe – I identify myself with that and meditate”. It will make more sense when we go over the entire shloka/krithi as to how it fits the context. This dhimahi is the same as in the vedic sAvitri mantra.

The word “parm” means ultimate. Here it refers to parameshwara, the creator “prapa~ncha kAraNam”.

svarUpa lakshna and taTasta lakshNa are two popular methods adopted to define him. This opening verse gives both definitions. Incidentally, a vyAvartaka definition does not fit him. ;)

[There are three main ways to define a thing:
vyAvartaKa - By distinguishing it from another.
taTasta - By pointing out its apparent attributes. (Like pointing to the river bed to locate a river).
svarUpa - By describing its essential nature]

The word “satyam” refers to the “svarUpa lakshna” or the intrinsic attribute of “paraM”. This directly refers to the taitriya shruti verse “satyam GYAnam anantam brahma”. The “satyam” here is not the opposite of “asatyam”. It refers to existence or pure being like the ‘sat’ in ‘sat chid Ananda’.

Srimad Bhagavatm starts and ends with the same refrain “satyam param dhimahi”, might be why Venkata Kavi chose to open the krithi with these lines.


“tat shuddhaM vimalaM vishokamamR^itaM satyaM paraMḿ dhImahi “ 12-13-19 Srimad Bhagavatam.


Cont..

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

The topic is still “brahma lakshnam” :D

We saw the classical “svarUpa lakshna “ definition earlier and the injunction to meditate on it.

So how do I cognize that “param satyam “ ? To answer this this another lakshNa is used, “taTasta lakshaNa” – the incidental attribute of this “param satyam “.

Both Srimad Bhagavatam and the Brahma sutra starts with the same phrase,

janmAdy-asya yataH - janmadAdi loka kAraNam - He in whom the creation, sustenance and dissolution of this world is . Indirectly cognized as the material and efficient cause of it .

yataH – (yasmaat kaaraNaat) - by which cause , janma – creation Adi- beginning with. asya- this (prapa~ncha- world) - The cause of the origin etc. of this visible universe.

Adi here indicates two more phenomena janma, stiti and laya - creation, sustenance and dissolution.

The Vedic mantra referred here is – “yatho vA imAni bhUtAni jAyante, ena jAtAni jIvanti, yat prayantyabhisam vishanti . (Taitriya).

VenkaTakavi rephrases it as “janmAdi loka kAraNa mUlam” .

Notice the word mUla kAraNa here. It refers to the abhina nimita upAdhAna kAraNam of jagat. Brahmam is both the material and the intelligent cause of this universe.

[Generally there are two main causes associated with an object. An intelligent cause and a material cause.
kulAlaH ghaTasya nimitta kAraNam – The potter is the intelligent cause of this pot.
mR^it ghaTasya upAdhAna kAraNam – Mud is the material cause of this pot.]

janmAdiloka kAraNa mUlam satyam param dhimahi - I meditate upon the “pure existence”, that from which the universe originates.

[satyam param yasya svarUpam, yasmAt abhinnanimitopAdAana kAraNAt asya pratyaksha prapa~nchasya sR^iShTi sthiti layam sambavanti, tat abhinna nimitopAdAana kAraNaM brahmaivAhamiti abhedhena dhyAyAmahe ]

[Though these Sanskrit passages might make it look complex, the fact that ‘God as the creator’ is universally accepted by all religions. Where it gets complex is when Acharyas differ in their opinion as to whether ‘satyam’ etc is the svarUpa or viseShaNa of brahman. ]

Cont…

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

We looked at brahman as the “jagat kAraNam” as the cause of the world. To know an object two things are needed, knowledge of the object and the means to know it. ( to read this post you will need to know the English language and a computer with internet connection :grin: )

lakShaNa pramANAbhyAm vastu siddhiH – objects are established through lakshna and pramANa (means of knowledge).

We now know both taTasta and svarUpa lakshNam of brahman. The ‘jagat’ – world is available for everyone’s perception, hence can it serve as a means of knowledge (pramANa) for brahman ?

The answer is NO. The world does not serve as a pramANa for brahman even though we see a cause-effect relationship here (kArya-kAraNa sambandha).

Inference is not a valid means of knowledge to know brahman. (na kAryalin~ngakAnumAnena/ na anumAnapramANena vedyam).

The “Vedas” alone are the means of knowledge (pramaNam) for brahman, inference(anumAna) is not. (naiShA tarkeNa matir ApaneyA) .

This idea is conveyed in the third sutra of brahma sutra- ‘shAstrayonitvAt’.

This sutra has two meanings,

shAstrasya yoniH - shAstra kartA – the author of the vedas . Vedas are supposed to be the house of all knowledge, both scared and secular. By making the creator (Ishvara) as the author of the Vedas, we imply that he is sarvag~na -“ all knower”.

shAstram yoniH - shAstra pramANakam, viShayam – Known by the Vedas, the content matter of the Vedas.


Both these ideas are conveyed in the phrase “tene brahma hRidAya Adi-kavaye muhyanti yat sUrayaH .” of Srimad Bhagavatam.

Venkatakavi incorporates these ideas in separate phrases.

nigama para mukhyam – For whom the vedas are the mouth. – ( veda kartA)
sarva nigama sAra bhUtam – The essence of all the Vedas. (shAstra pramANakam)
akhaNDa tattva rahasya – Secret/sacred knowledge
brahmmAdi pramukha sadAnuta shIlam – Saluted by Brahma and other celestials. (muhyanti yat sUrayaH )


Bhagavan is supposed to have imparted this sacred knowledge to Brahma-ji first, making him the ‘adi kavi’. (tene brahma hRidAya Adi-kavaye). This idea is again mentioned in the Chatushloki Bhagavatam portion in Srimad Bhagavatam.

“j~nyAnam parama-guhyam me yad vij~nAna-samanvitam”
….
“yAvAnaham yatha-bhavo yad-rupa-guna-karmakaH
tathaiva tattva-vij~nAnam astu te mad-anugrahAt”

Notice the “akhaNDa tattva rahasya “ and “nigama para mukhyam” usages conveying the same idea as above.

Cont…

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Excellent and enlightening, Seeksha ji. I look forward to the next parts...

Looking at the big picture, would a thorough knowledge of the Bhagavatam alone give all these insights or would you opine that Venkata Kavi would have actually studied the Brahma sutras?

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by rshankar »

Seeksha - excellent commentary!
Sri Ravikiran, and Seeksha - in the present day, it looks like one needs (at the very least), a PhD in sanskRt or (hindu) religious studies to understand these nuances and meanings in each word used by Sri OVK in some of these compositions...I wonder how many actually will be able to understand them without such aids....

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Shankar,

Perfectly correct. This facet of scholarliness of OVK is what I have been endeavouring to share with the music world over the last few years. There are numerous compositions of his like this which stimulate our own imagination and scholarship.

His imaginative, and elegant poetic style and personalised approach can camouflage his erudition. I am glad that some of you are now able to throw much more light on his multi-dimensional creations...

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

Looking at the big picture, would a thorough knowledge of the Bhagavatam alone give all these insights or would you opine that Venkata Kavi would have actually studied the Brahma sutras?
My humble opinion is a categorical yes, Bhagavatam is capable of giving all these insights. But let me qualify my assertion here. By no means Bhagavatam is a Purana like another. As we saw earlier, one of the glories of Bhagavatam is that it acts as a commentary to the Brahma sutras.

“arthoyam brahmasUtrAnAm bhArathArtha vinirNayaH”

Portions like Sruti Gita in Bhagavatam are impossible to comprehend without a good understanding of the Brahma sutras.

There have been a tradition of Advaita Acharyas like Sridhara Swamy, Madhusudana Saraswati, Narayana Teertha, Bhagavan nama bodhendra etc. who were astonishing Vedantins as well as Bhagavatam exponents. By Venkata Kavi’s time this tradition was very well established. Venkata Kavi must have had a Guru who resorted to this tradition. He himself is in no means a casual reader of Bhagavatam, we see the impact of Bhagavatam on almost all his compositions.

Do we see sutra bashya impact on Venkata Kavi’s creation ? I have not read the sutra bashyam, so I don’t know the answer for this. I think even if he did the subject matter of his creation does not warrant a display of that expertise. (except for a very few krithis like “satyam param dhimahi”).

To give some perspective towards the study of Brahma sutras, there are just 500 + sutras total. One could go over these in less than a day. But these sutras won’t make much sense until we resort to one of the commentaries.

The intent to Brahma sutra study is to solidify Vedantic knowledge and understanding. This is achieved by eliminating the misunderstanding caused by other astika/nastika schools like sankhya, nyaya, yoga etc. Sankhya is the primary pUrvapakShi for most of the sutras.

Shankara Bhagavatpada’s commentary is the primary source for understanding the Brahma sutras. Other Acharyas like Ramanuja, Madhva, vallabha etc. have differed in some of the key tents with in the Vedantic tradition, but their primary source to agree or disagree has invariably been Shankara’s interpretations.

I have not studied Shankar Bhagavatpada’s commentary in itself. My source of knowledge on this topic is ‘vaiyAsika nyAya mAlA” and Swamy Paramarthananda’s classes. ‘vaiyAsika nyAya mAlA’ is an independent work in a verse form that deals with the arguments in the Brahma sutras in line with Shankara Bhagavatpad’s commentary and gives a topic wise summary. There are other works like Bashyartha nyaya mAlA that are similar and written with the same intent.

http://www.archive.org/details/VaiyasikaNyayaMala

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

In the earlier posts we had established Brahmam as the creator of this universe and the Vedas as the means of that knowledge.

From that one Brahman how does the universe full of innumerable names and forms manifest ?
The answer to this question would obviously have to be a detailed chronology of creation.

The process of creation is a gradual immergence in stages, like a sprout from a seed manifesting as a tree with numerous branches, leafs, flowers, fruits etc. To be able to comprehend this chronology easier the Vedas point to major milestones in the process of creation and explain as to how things progress from one significant point to another.

At a very high level creation has three stages, the un-manifest stage, the rudimentary stage and the manifest stage.

Let us take for example the creation of this post :) . First the knowledge/ideas exist in me in some neurons (kAraNa), I think it over and brings it in my mind as to what sequence I want to lay it down (sUkshma) and then type and publish it for everyone to see (sthUla).

kAraNa --> sUkshma --> stUla

“Brahman” that has always been the subject imposes on itself the ability to objectify and becomes the mUla kAraNam. This is the first thing that happens in creation.

sattvaM rajas tama iti nirguNasya guṇAstrayaH |
sthiti sarga nirodheShu gR^ihItA mAyayA vibhoH || Bhagavatam 2.5.20

Brahmam that does not have any intrinsic attributes(nirguNa), for the sake of the creation, maintenance and destruction of the material world envelops mAyA comprising of satvaM, rajas and tamas.


tribhirguṇamayairbhāvairebhiḥ sarvamidaṁ jagat |
mohitaṁ nābhijānāti māmebhyaḥ paramavyayam || Geetha 7.13

The world deluded by these Three Gunas does not know Me who is beyond these Gunas and imperishable. (7.13)


In other words, brahmam + mAyA = mUla kAraNam = Ishvara. This mAyA and brahman combo is referred to as parA prakR^iti and aparA prakR^iti or as puruSha and prakR^iti depending on the context.

The triguNAtmikA nature (satva rajas tama) of mAyA is not the popular satva-rajas-tamas guNa that we generally attribute as tendency, nature or behavior. The guNas referred here are aspects or capability that is at the source of creation in an indivisible form.

These three guNas give raise to three fundamental capabilities of creation. j~nAna – knowledge, kriyA – skill and dravya - material. satva generates j~nAna, rajas – kriya and tamas – dravya.

kAryakAraNakartṛtve dravya-j~nAna-kriyAshrayAH .
badhnanti nityadA muktaM mAyinaM purushaM guNAH.. Bhagavatam 2.5.21

These three guNas, being further manifested as matter (guNa), knowledge (J~Nana) and activities(kriyA), generate the cause effect relationship and binds him as the doer.


This is what Venkata kavi refers to as “satva guNa bharita nivAsam” in the krithi.

Creation continues with these guNas further going through a fusion process. We have two more stages to cover in creation, sUkshma and stUla. Brahman gets a different name at every stage .

kAraNa --> sUkshma --> stUla
Ishvara --> hiraNyagarbha --> virAt

Cont…
Last edited by seeksha on 04 Aug 2011, 20:20, edited 1 time in total.

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by uday_shankar »

seeksha wrote:To be able to comprehend this chronology
Again, not to spoil the smooth flow of your brilliant and scholarly exposition, especially by an upstart like me who couldn't quote anything from the bhagavatham to save himself, I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the use of the word "chronology" as pertains to creation. For after all, if "time" as we know it "was" also created, then there's a sequence perhaps but no "chronology". A chronological theory of creation is what's popularly held everywhere in the world including the bible (and perhaps everday Hinduism and puranas, etc) and all western sciences, which is shrishti-drishti vAda, i.e., the idea of duality of God and the "universe (including all of "us")" is firmly established first without much debate and then everything comes into being gradually ! However, this is far from satisfactory to anybody who's undergone the shravana and manana of "brahmasatya jaganmitya". The latter refrain dins into the chitta that even kAla is mitya! So does one mitya show up first and then pull the others up ?! I agree all this is an adhyarOpakAla for the student and falls by the wayside with apavAda or the denial of all this... Still, if you substitute the word "chronology" with "sequence", our terminology will be consistent. For those curious about other - and in my opinion more satisfactory - theories of creation, there's the drishti-shrishti vAda, which is the concurrent creation of the universe everytime there's an awareness of wakefulness or jAgrati (somewhat more satisfactory than the theory of gradual creation in tIme) and finally the profound satya - the ajAta-vAda or the theory of non-creation. Nothing (of significance) has really been created !
Since our terminology affects our thinking, the correct question to ask about the universe, creation, God, etc...is not "what was there before all this" but rather "what is there behind all this"...Then the false nature of kAla is immediately revealed.

Sorry for the disturbance...please proceed!

seeksha
Posts: 20
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 00:17

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by seeksha »

Code: Select all

I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the use of the word "chronology" as pertains to creation. For after all, if "time" as we know it "was" also created, then there's a sequence perhaps but no "chronology". 
You are right, sequence is a better word than chronology. The Sanskrit term that we are referring to here is – shrShTi krama.

Another reason being chronology refers to events in time. We are talking about what was there before time and space were born. Big bang hadn’t happened yet. :)

Just my 2c. on the other remarks about creation,

I don’t think one theory is better than the other. ajAta vAda is for the advanced seekers etc. is a neo-vedanta view. Traditional Acharyas have not looked at it that way.

ajata vAda, srShTi- drShTi, drShTi- srShTi-, is all true from its own locus.

From Brahman’s point of view there is no creation - ajAta vAda.
From Ishvara’s point of view there is perception and hence creation –drShTi srShTi
From jIva point of view there is creation and hence he perceives it. - srShTi drShTi

As someone said, the crow and the fox story would be a Drama from crow’s perspective, a thriller from the fox’s and a tragedy from the vadai/cheese perspective. :tmi:

Actually creation is mentioned in the Vedas in multiple ways. The intent of teaching creation is to point to the adhiShThna kAraNam, brahman.

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by uday_shankar »

seeksha wrote:The Sanskrit term that we are referring to here is – shrShTi krama.
Ahh..."Manifestation sequence" or "projection sequence" maybe ? One more thing...since we believe that the upAdAna kAraNa and nimitta kAraNa are one and the same (and therefore nothing new is "created"), then isn't it better to substitute the use of "creation" everywhere with "manifestation/projection" ? Maybe it's just my entirely english-educated head, in which "creation" only signifies all the western/Semitic notions (i.e., a permanently separate God somewhere in heaven created the universe in seven days with separate material from somewhere) associated with it, that are not applicable here.
(OK, enough said, I promise no more interruptions...!)
-------------------------------------------
PS: I've subsequently learned that the Sanskrit term for the "instantaneous" projection of the universe I was referring to is yugapat shrShti (as different from krama shrShTi).

Suryasriram
Posts: 59
Joined: 11 Sep 2015, 22:27

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by Suryasriram »

While on the subject of Bhagavatam, it is interesting to note that Venkatakavi's 2nd Ratna in Gaula, Aganita Mahima, is based on the Second Canto of Bhagavatam.

I got this idea from the last swara-sahityam 'Chandrajatadhara Bhagavannatha' which is almost exactly quoted from the Bhagavatam Sloka 2.7.43-45:

O Nārada, although the potencies of the Lord are unknowable and immeasurable, still, because we are all surrendered souls, we know how He acts through yoga-māyā potencies. And, similarly, the potencies of the Lord are also known to the all-powerful Śiva, the great king of the atheist family, namely Prahlāda Mahārāja, Svāyambhuva Manu, his wife Śatarūpā, his sons and daughters like Priyavrata, Uttānapāda, Ākūti, Devahūti and Prasūti, Prācīnabarhi, Ṛbhu, Aṅga the father of Vena, Mahārāja Dhruva, Ikṣvāku, Aila, Mucukunda, Mahārāja Janaka, Gādhi, Raghu, Ambarīṣa, Sagara, Gaya, Nāhuṣa, Māndhātā, Alarka, Śatadhanve, Anu, Rantideva, Bhīṣma, Bali, Amūrttaraya, Dilīpa, Saubhari, Utaṅka, Śibi, Devala, Pippalāda, Sārasvata, Uddhava, Parāśara, Bhūriṣeṇa, Vibhīṣaṇa, Hanumān, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Arjuna, Ārṣṭiṣeṇa, Vidura, Śrutadeva, etc. (Srila Prabhupada translation.)

The composer has no doubt condensed the number of personalities, but his purport remains the same, right to the word, 'Atha' taken from the sloka.

Plus, the other sahityams talk about the various potencies of the Lord, which are variously described throughout the Second Canto.

Any experts can comment on this?

ajaysimha
Posts: 831
Joined: 19 Apr 2018, 18:16

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by ajaysimha »

chitravina ravikiran wrote: 11 Jun 2011, 05:23 I have posted the Anjaneya krti that appears as a part of OVK's Mahabharata (I have only seen a few songs from this opera so far). Here, Bheema talks about Anjaneya's greatness to the 'old monkey' which has blocked his way, not realising its identity...

Madhyamavati Adi

P: sholla vallEnO - maRaiyOdi paravu malar pAdan
seeta nAthan shree rAma dootan perumai (sholla vallEnO)

A: vallavaraippOlum vazhi maRutta Or vAnaramE idu kELum
nalla uRai shonnEn aNNanadu perumai - gnyAnam vandavuDan vazhiviTTu meeLum (sholla vallEnO)

C 1: teLLiya pavana dEvanukkum anjanA dEvi tanakkum mahanAha udittAn
tihamoLi kadiravan kaLiru tilakamODu kaniyena manamODu piDittAn
Arum aRivadAna paDi kadiril mEvi Ayirattil onbadu paDittAn
Ahiri tannil munamE giri uruhavumAkki nAradanin mamadaiyai piDittAn (sholla vallEnO)

C2: tEDi vanam vanda shree rAmachandran enum daivam puhazhinukkAnavai yuTrAan
tirumahaLazhiyinai kaNDu annai tarum chiranjeevi enum Ashiyum peTrAn
nADi purudumoru vELai teeyaiyiDa rAvaNan nagar tanai teeyiDa uTrAan
rAma rAma jayarAma rAma jayarAma ena nAmamum kaTrAn (sholla vallEnO)

C 3: iyann mahizha ivayyam mahizha perum aDarum sanjeevi malaiyODum vandAn
anaivarum uyir pera Anandam tanaiyura attaruNam iyyanadu pAdam paNindAn
uiya vahai aRiya ninRu ninRulava uLLoLi tannoDum engum uvandAn
uRangi iDaRiDu munnaiyum valiyuRa OraruL endanukku uDanukkuDan eendan (sholla vallEnO)
--------------------------------------------------------
1. I could not grasp the full significance of line 2 in Charanam 1. OVK also mentions this in the Anjaneya saptaratna krti in Suruti.

2. In line 4, he mentions the raga Ahiri - so I wonder if the song was in Ahiri. I have not located the audio so far.
To clarify about the ahiri raagm,
there is a story of hanuman doing upadesham of Ahiri ragam on veena to narada muni.
which also is refered in another song - kanaka giri pOlE

Youtube Link
https://youtu.be/zH8uTc5DgDA

kanaka giri pole - athana - adi | hanuman krithi | oothukadu venkata kavi

P
kanaka giri pOlE kATchi tarum ghanavAnE shrIman hanumAnE
MK
gatiyena vanda dayAnidhiyE karuNai uvanda tapOnidhiyE
tudi paraviDum ina kula rAmacandra dUtanAna svAmi nI karuNai puri

AP
anagha tiru tavamAgina kulapati anjana dEvi maindanE[1]
Agamam enum nava vyAkaraNam tanai Adavanenum sUriyaniDam bOdhakam kUrum[2]

C
gANamuni nAradanukkAga oru Ahiriyai vINaiyilE upadEsittAi [3]
kAkuttan kulam vAzha nEratra malaiyinai karattinilE asaivittAi [4]
jnana muni andanunukkAga vaikuNThattinai nAnilattilE varavazhittAi [5]
nangai jAnaki tanakku ingitam miga sangItam isaittAi [6]
MK
gatiyena vanda dayAnidhiyE karuNai uvanda tapOnidhiyE
tudi paraviDum ina kula rAmacandra dUtanAna svAmi nI karuNai puri

story [1] hanuman is born as a result of anjana devi's penance
story [2] hanuman learns nava-vyakaranas from surya deva
story [3] hanuman does upadesham of Ahiri ragam on veena to narada
story [4] hanuman saves lakshmana by bringing sanjeevini parvatam
story [5] hanuman brings Rama, Lakshmana and Sita from Vaikuntam for samartha ramdasar on request
story [6] hanuman sings praise of Lord Rama to sita, sitting at Ashoka vanam (Lanka)

ajaysimha
Posts: 831
Joined: 19 Apr 2018, 18:16

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by ajaysimha »

Humor in Oothukadu Venkata Kavi Sahityams

Venkata Kavi has brought out yet another aspect rather rare in Carnatic music – humor.
Here is an humble attempt to recapitulate those krithis to dwell deep in rasanubhavam.
Rasikas, please do share your thoughts on the subject, if you have come across.

#1 viṣhamakkāra kaṇṇan (https://youtu.be/NWqAFJfGc98)

pakkattu veeṭṭuppeṇṇai azhaippān mukhāri rāgam
pāḍaccholli vambukkizhuppān
enakkadu teriyādenṛāl nekkuruha kiḷḷi viṭṭu (avaḷ)
vikki vikki azhum pōdu idāṇḍi mukhāri enbān

He will call out (azhaippAn) to the girl (peNNai) next (pakattu) door (vITTu), and incite (izhuppAn) a quarrel/dalliance (vambuku) by asking (Solli) her to sing (pADa) mukhAri rAgam. When she says (enrAl) 'I (enakku) do not know (teriyAdu) that (adu)', he will pinch (kiLLiviTTu) her really hard (nekkuruga), and when she (avaL) starts to cry (azhumpOdu), with gasping breaths/whimpers (vikki vikki), (this precious young man who is unpredictably mischievous and evil) will tell her that (enbAn) 'this (idu) is indeed (tAnDi) mukhAri'!

#2 konjum mazhalai (https://youtu.be/TTDMwU4xKzI)

ondṛirendu eṇṇuvēn eṭṭinukkuḷḷē
ōḍōḍivandāl unnai ondṛum sheivadillai
paṇdṛi enṛum āmaiyenṛum pādi miruham enṛum
parpalavāha vaiyya enṛāl pāzhum manam vallaiyē

I shall count till eight. If you come before that, I will spare you (of any punishment). I don’t have the heart to call you names like a pig, tortoise or a half-animal.

#3 vandu kēṭpār illaiyō (https://youtu.be/5H75CwRdcAE)

vandu piṛakkummunnē māman kāttirundān
manamārappeṭṛavanō dattu tandirundān
vanda iḍattil annai kaṭṭippōṭṭirundāḷ adai
vaṭṭiyum mudalumāi pazhi vānga vandān

Even before he was born his uncle (Kamsan) was waiting for him (to get rid of him). His father willingly gave him for adoption (to YasOdA). In his adopted home his (foster) mother bound him up (to a thresher). And he is taking revenge for all that upon us now.

Regards,
Ajay Simha

thanjavooran
Posts: 2972
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 04:44

Re: Value of OVK's contributions

Post by thanjavooran »

Please find below an article on Today's Indian Express

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... i-7412125/

Post Reply