Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
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RaviSri
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Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 11:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

Smt Sakuntala Narsimhan has recorded about 15 songs of Thyagaraja sung according to the Tillaistanam pATAntaram. Songs like bAlE bAlEndu bhUShaNi (rItIgauLa), evvarE rAmayyA (gAngEyabhUShaNi), chitra ratna maya (karaharapriyA), vAchAmagOcharamE (kaikavashi) are special and different from the usual versions. The other songs too are of excellent quality. The rItigauLa song uses the D1 as is the actual tradition. Listen to this recording which the musician has sung along with explanations too. Valuable, useful and rare too. There is practically none else now who can sing songs in this version.

http://www.sangeethamshare.org/tvg/UPLO ... ja-Part-1/
http://www.sangeethamshare.org/tvg/UPLO ... ja-Part-2/

Thanks are due to TV Gopalakrishnan for uploading this valuable programme.

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 539
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Yes....very interesting programme. But almost all the krithis excluding a few were notated in the book "Sri Thyagaraja krithis - Thillaisthanam version" by Sri Parthasarathi. She could have selected some new songs so that we would have got an opportunity to look into their repertoire.
Also she mentioned, Saranga in their version takes the phrase sgr.

Jigyaasa
Posts: 587
Joined: 16 May 2006, 14:04

Re:

Post by Jigyaasa »

vgvindan wrote:tyAgarAja kRti 'kRpAlavAla' - nAda varAngiNi has been posted in our wiki -
http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/kripalavala-kaladhara

This kRti deals with the temptations of siddhis for those on the path of liberation. This has been dealt with along with references.

I invite your comments.
Has anyone heard a rendition of this song other than by Sri M. Balamuralikrishna, which is in a commercial album?

Gerry_Gerry
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Joined: 11 May 2007, 17:29

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Gerry_Gerry »

I listened to Kaikavashi by MS Subbalakshmi, and Balamurali. They are significantly different, though it is the same song - Vachamago. The difference is as follows:

The scale is like this S R2 G2 M2 P D3 N3 S and S N3 P M2 G2 R2 S.

When MS sings, she does not use D3 at all, and it sounds pretty much like Dharmavati.

When Balamurali sings, he only slightly uses N3, and mostly D3, and the flavour is much more like the parent ragam Nitimati.

Has anyone observed this difference? Would love to hear your thoughts.

For Balamurali, it is this link - https://www.sangeethamshare.org/sreeniv ... lavi_1978/

For MS, it is this link - https://www.sangeethamshare.org/sunil/t ... o/krithis/

MaheshS
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by MaheshS »

Gerry_Gerry wrote: 04 Aug 2017, 23:04 I listened to Kaikavashi by MS Subbalakshmi, and Balamurali. They are significantly different, though it is the same song - Vachamago. The difference is as follows:

The scale is like this S R2 G2 M2 P D3 N3 S and S N3 P M2 G2 R2 S.

When MS sings, she does not use D3 at all, and it sounds pretty much like Dharmavati.

When Balamurali sings, he only slightly uses N3, and mostly D3, and the flavour is much more like the parent ragam Nitimati.

Has anyone observed this difference? Would love to hear your thoughts.

For Balamurali, it is this link - https://www.sangeethamshare.org/sreeniv ... lavi_1978/

For MS, it is this link - https://www.sangeethamshare.org/sunil/t ... o/krithis/
Here is a version by Mahavidwan Sandhyavandanam Srinivasa Rao - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfOjCk0oI8o

Lakshman
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Lakshman »

It is probably because she used this scale from pAlaiyAzhi for the song:
kaikavashi--59--S R G M P N S--S N P M G R S--p--T.A.Sambandamurti

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rshankar »

Gerry_Gerry wrote: 04 Aug 2017, 23:04Vachamago.
That sounds suspiciously like pEsAma pO.....:lol:

Gerry_Gerry
Posts: 5
Joined: 11 May 2007, 17:29

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Gerry_Gerry »

[/quote]

Here is a version by Mahavidwan Sandhyavandanam Srinivasa Rao - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfOjCk0oI8o
[/quote]

I listened to this. It is the same as MS's version. No D3. Hence either the scale definition is wrong or the singers are wrong. Both cant be right. In case D3 is there and I could not find it, please tell me where in this video of Sandhyavandanam.

MaheshS
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by MaheshS »

This is Prof SRJ's version - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2RL9l4KwU4

As usual, BMK stands out :) I like both versions!

bhakthim dehi
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Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Lexicons mention Kaikavashi as a janya of Neethimathi and having shatshruthi dhaivatham.

Lakshman
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Lakshman »

I don't know which lexicons you are referring to but in both Ragapravaham and Paliyazhi, Kaikavashi is placed under melas 21, 59 and 60.

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 539
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Sangraha Chudamani and Sangeetha Sara Sangrahamu says Kaikavashi is a janya of mela 60.
By the way, is Palaiyazhi is a lexicon? Who Is the author?

vanimakkapati
Posts: 7
Joined: 07 Jun 2017, 21:43

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by vanimakkapati »

Hi,

Can anybody send the notation of Tulasi Bilwa,Kedara Gowla,Adi in English that would be helpful.
I heard that krithi in AmruthaVenkatesh concert video.

Email: vanimakkapati@gmail.com

Thanks in advance
Srivani

Lakshman
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Lakshman »

vanimakkapati: Please post your request in the Identification/Translations thread. Thanka.

SriKrishnan
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Joined: 22 Oct 2014, 19:12

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SriKrishnan »

I have a question to esteemed Rasikas in the group. Having seen amazing research from Ravisri and others, I am sure some interesting insights will emerge.
It is about some of the Kshethras that Thyagaraja must have visited but no Krithis seems to exist. It is well known that Thyagaraja believed in ' Koti Nadulu Dhanush Kotilo nundaka " , so he did not go on Thirtha yantra as such. Except the the sojourn to Tirupathi, covering Sri rangam , Kanchipuram and few more on the way.

1) Did Thyagaraja sing on the deities of Tiruvarur ? Though there is a controversy that if it is his real place of birth, definitely it I was his mothers place. He must have visited. He has visited Nagapattinam, and must have gone via Tiruvarur.

2) Thyagaraja seem to have visited the places of his Sishya's at their request. He has visited and sung at Lalgudi, Walajapet,etc.
What about Thillaisthanam ? His favourite Sishya Rama Iyengar must have invited him.Thillaisthanam is also not too far, hardly two kilometers from Tiruvaiyar.

3) what about Tiruvanaikkaval ? Having been at Srirangam for few weeks ,so close to Tiruvanaikkaval, Did he not visit ?

4) What about Sri Rama temples/ Sannidhis ? Even Dikshithar has sung on Rama at Srirangam ( Sri Ranga pure vihara ). What about Thyagaraja ? Did he visit Thillai vilagam ? Did he not visit Ramaswamy temple at Kumbakonam , so near Thiruvaiyar and again on the way to Thiruvarur/ Nagapattinam ?

RaviSri
Posts: 512
Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 11:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

hough there is a controversy that if it is his real place of birth, definitely it I was his mothers place. He must have visited.
There is no real controversy here. It was B.M.Sundaram who started this so called controversy on the basis of a kriti of Manambuchavadi Venkatasubbayya who was a cousin of Thyagaraja but 30 years younger to the composer. There is also a spurious song attributed to Thyagaraja and sung by Balamurali in which the composer (?) says that he was bron in Tiruvayyaru. BMS being BMK's discviple obviously will only parrot what his gur sang. Walajapet Venkataramana Bhagavatar and Thanjavur Rama Rao wrote the life story of Thyagaraja after consulting the composer's father Rama Brahmam and have written that Thyagaraja was born in Tiruvarur.

There is son of Thyagaraja in Saurashtram, 'dEva rAma mahA dEva rAma rAghavA' which is supposed to be in praise of the Lord of Tiruvarur. The mudra comes in the lasst line, 'nishanka rasika tyAgarAja.. dEva RAma...' We can't be sure. It does not matter that he did not compose on various kShEtras like Tiruvarur, Tiruvanaikkaval, etc. He must certainly have visited them.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Image"The painting is good. But i remember to have seen it in some other context where, thyagayya invites SriRama. But when Rama arrives, Thyagayya doesnot see him but his wife has a great darshan.".
.Image
May I know which kruthi of Thyagaraja is associated with this picture?


RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

#318-> I have benefited by the link given . However, it does not give a clue to my pointed question. Thanks nevertheless

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rajeshnat »

V Sriram (brilliant music historian )writeup on sadguru thyagaja possessions ,dated May 04,2018 from The Hindu
http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/m ... 759797.ece

Pratyaksham Bala
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
The first song of Tyagaraja to find a place in Cinema was ‘enta nErcina’ rendered by T.P. Rajalakshmi in the first Tamil sound movie ‘Kalidas’ of 1931.

Can anyone give the audio link to this ?

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Thyagaraja Swami is said to have composed ( both lyrics and music) to nearly 700 kritis.
At present, there are two great sites for reference.
1) Sri.V.Govindan's Thyagaraja Vaibavam which gives all the kritis arranged in alphabetical order , ragam information and meaning and lyrics
2) Another wonderful site by Sangeethapriya devoted entirely to Thyagaraja kritis. It can be sorted by ragam name.
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/tributes/ ... ithis.html
--------------------------
Is there any other site which gives the kritis in each ragam, arranged alpahbetically by ragam and numbered? For example, I would like to get all the kritis in some ragam like toDi.
Kindly share any such site please.

Lakshman
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Lakshman »

.Songs in Todi by Tyagaraja:

Aragimpave palaragimpave
Brindavanalola govinda aravinda nayana
Chesinadella marachitivo o rama rama
Dachchuko valena dasharathi nidu daya
Dasharathi ni runamu dirpa na tarama parama
Dorakunayani surula dora vedalenu ganare
Emani mataditivo rama evari manasu evidhamo
Emi jesite nemi shri ramasvami karuna leni
Endu daginado idaku ra nannedudaya vachchura
Enduku dayaradura shri ramachandra ni
Evaru teliyaka boyyeru ni mahimalu
Gati nivani ne kori vachchiti talli paraka
Hariyanuvani sariyevvare hariyuvani sari
Kadatera rada manasa
Kaddanu variki kaddu kaddani morala nidu
Karuna judavamma kamalavairi kaladharuni
Koluvamaregada kodandapani
Koti nadulu dhanushkotilo nundagaetiki tirigedave
Munnu ravana badha norvaka vibhishanudu
Ne morabettite madilona ni kayasamelara
Ni daya ravalegaka nenenta vadanu rama
Ninnu vina sukhamu gana niraja nayana
Nivanti daivamu shadanana ne nendu ganara
Proddu poyenu shri ramuni buni bhajimpave manasa
Raju vedale jutamu rare kasturi ranga
Re manasa chintaya shri ramam
Rukalu padivelunna cheredu nukalu gatigani o
Sada bhajimpave sadashivuni samukhamuna nilachi
Tappi bratiki po tarama rama kalilo
Varidhi niku vandana monarincheda (daru)
Vedalenu kodandapani anuja saumitri gudi

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Sri.Lakshnan_ji, Thank you. . I could count 31 kritis in your list. Will soon prepare a table . May I have similar list of kritis in ragams ---karaharapriya, harikambodhi, sankarabaranam? ( ofcourse, seoparately...one by one) Thank you

ajaysimha
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by ajaysimha »

RSR wrote: 25 Dec 2017, 01:07 May I know which kruthi of Thyagaraja is associated with this picture?
its is bala kanakamaya chela(ela ni daya radu) -krithi in athana ragam

story behind this krithi is told here:

Smt. Vishaka Hari - Tyagaraja Charitram [Indian Classical Music Discourse] @ 32:10 mins

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

ajaysimha
-------------
Thank you very much.
'Nannu paalimpa' ( mohanam") is siad to be the kriti associated with the picture. Thyagaraja was not aware of the visit by Ramchandra. It was his wife who had the bliss of darsanam. Ofcourse, we naver know.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

When we sing Yhyagaraja kritis, there are two styles. 1) As prayer 2) As exploring the music.
In a normal concert, the singers just dont sing the kritis. but add raga alapana, swarams and such. But in any concert exclusively meant fot paying our respect to Saint Thyagaraja, the right tradition is just to sing a series of his kritis, where the composer himself, is giving stress on the devotional aspect rather than the art of music embellishments. With that in mind, I chose the following gems for a thyagaraja araadhana event.
I plan to give atleast 60 such moving kritis. ( in instalments) Not in any particular order.
1) sangeetha gnyaanamu ( dhanyasi)
2) upacharamu (bairavi)
3) koluva maragate ( todi)
4) janaki ramaNa ( suddha seemandhini)
5) Nannu paalimpa ( mohanam)
6) chakkani raaja maarga ( karaharapriya)
7) Namakusuma ( sriragam)
8) meru samaana ( mayamaLavagowLa)
9) kanaka ( varaaLi)
10)ksheenama ( mukari)
( to be continued)

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

in continuation of @327
--------------------
11) giripai - sahaanaa
12) sujana jeevanaa - kamaaj
13) dinamani vamsa - harikambodhi
14) intha sowkyamu - kaapi
15) saamajavara gamanaa- hindolam
16) aadhayasri - Ahiri
17) bantu reethi - hamsanadham
18) enta nerchina - suddha danyasi
19) evari maata - kambodhi
20) jagathaanandakaraka-Nttai

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

21) Nenendhu vedu kuduthura - karanataka behag
22) bala kanaka maya- aTanaa
23) Nidhi chaala sukama - kalyaNI
24) vadare deivamu -panthuvaraaLi

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

25)gnanamosagaradha- poorvikalyaNi-mss
26)swararaga sudha - sankarabaraNam-mss
27)vara Narada- vijayasree-mss
28) santhamulega sowkyamo- saama-dkp
29) vidajalathura -janaranjani-mss
30) paraloka bayamu - mandaari-mss
31) pavamuna suthudu - sowrashtram
32) vandhanamu ragunandhana- sahana-dkp
33) yemi jesithe- todi-ncv
may be continued)

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

in continuation of post
34)koluvai-yunnAde Bhairavi
35)chetularA Kharahapriya
36) nadachi-nadachi Kharahapriya DKP
37)swara-rAgAsudha ShankarABharaNa MSS
38)darini-telusukontini ShuddhasAvEri-MSS
39)kAla-haranamElarA-harE ShuddhasAvEri DKP
40)sogasugA-mrudanga SrIranjani
41) tolijanma bilahari, DKP
42) aparAdhamula darbAr DKP
43)yOchanA darbAr , DKP
44)mOsabOku-vinavE gouLipantu MSS
45) entarAni harikAmbhOji , DKP
46)rAma-nannu-brOva harikAmbhOji-DKP
47)rAmA-ninnE-nammi husEni
48)mAmava-satatam jaganmOhini DKP
49)ShObillu jaganmOhini MSS --

50)mI-valla kApi MSS *
51)Etavunara kalyANi GNB
52)vAsudeva-yani kalyANi
53)tuLasIdaLa mAyAmAlavagouLa
54)vidulaku-mrokEdA mAyAmAlavagouLa
55)ElAvatAra mukhAri DKP , NCV
56)entanine mukhAri -dkp
57)kAru-bAru-sEyu mukhAri MSS
58)jagadAnandakAraka nATa MSS
59)karunAjaladhE nAdanAmakriya MSs
60)nIkE-dayarAka nIlAmbari mss
====
61)telisi-rAma pUrNachandrika-MMI
62)jnanamosagarAda pUrvikalyANi MMI
63)appa-rAmaBhakthi panthuvarALi-MMI
64)tava-dAsOham punnAgavarALi MSS
65)mAkElarA ravichandrika
66)niravadhi ravichandrika
67)enta-Bhagyamu sAranga MMI
68)ennadO sourAstra DKP
69)dASharathe tOdi MSS
70)kaddAnu-vAriki tOdi -ncv
---------------
71)munnu-rAvana tOdi DKP ,MSS
72)vAridhi-nIku tOdi DKP
73)eTi-janmamidi varaLi dkp
74) manasulOni varamu MSS
75)nI-dayarAda vasantha-Bhairavi NCV
--------------
76) vara-nArada vijayaSrI MSS
77)entanuchu yadukula-kAmbhOji DKP
78)hecharikagArAra yadukula-kAmbhOji MMI , MSS
===

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

I think, we can reach upto 100 kritis . There are a number of ragas having only one kritis by the swami. it so happens that many such kritis are classics! (ex) janakiramana ( suddha seemanthini) and saamajavaragaana ( hindolam). and a lot of ragams with non-familiar names.
-------------
based on the information in sangeethapriya site, i prepared a list of ragams used and the number of kritis in each such ragam.
Surprisingly, even THYAGARAJA SWAMI has used only about 60 very well-known ragams.
and the total number of kritis in each of those ragams when added up came to just 500 kritis.
-----
In a planned subsequent list, i will give single-kriti ragams and rare-ragams. the totla may not exceed 100!
------------
why not have thyagaraja swami's kritis as bench mark?
how many vovalists can really renderall the kritis?
-----------------------------------------
arabi---14
anandabairavi -4
bairavi- 19
ghanta -8
karaharapriya-13
sankarabaranam- 34
suddhasaveri- 5
sriranjani- 5
------------------102
atanaa-14
asaveri-8
begada- 11
balahamsa-8
bilahari-11
desiyatodi- 5
devamanohari-4
darbar-10
devagandhari-12
dhanyasi-8
--------------------------91
goulipantu-5
harikambodhi-11
huseni-7
hamsadwani-3
jaganmohini-2
janaranjani-3
kamboji-7
kaapi-13
kedaragowla-12
kalyani-20
------------------------------83

kuntalavarali-3
mayamalavagowla-5
mohanam-13
madhyamavathi-14
mukari-10
naattai-2
naattakurinji-3
nadanamakriya-2
narayanagowla-4
naayaki-3
------------------------------59
neelaambari-7
purnachandrika-3
purvikalyani-4
panthuvaraali-13
punnagavarali-11
ritigowla-10
ravichandrika-2
saama-3
saranga-6
saaveri-18
---------------------------------67
sahanaa-10
souraashtram-20
surutti-9
todi-27
varali-16
vasantha-3
vasanthabairavi-2
vijayasree-1
yadukula kamboji-10
yamunkalyani-5
----------------------------103
========================
major section over

total ( 58 ragam)
=====
102
-----
91
83
59
67
103
=====
505

**********************************************************************

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Thyagaraja swami gave us many songs in special ragams but only one or two.
and the names of ragams are not very well-nown either.
that is no reason not to explore them.
because many hugely popular kritis are the only krithi in that ragam.
for exnmple nagumomu is the only krithi by Thyagaraja in abheri and so on.
---------------
This is an attempt to give a birds eye view of such ragams and songs for exploration.
there are 140 such ragams and 180 kritis because some of them have two or four kritis.


1) abhimAnamu AndAli
2)rAga-sudhArasa AndhOlikA
3)SrI-kAnta-nEyada Bhavapriya
4)sarivArilOna Bhinnashadjam
5)dEnajanAvana BhupAla
6)tana-mIdanE BhushAvaLi
-----------------
7)itara-daivamula chAyAtarangiNi
kripa-jUchutaku ChAyAtarangiNi
--------------------------------
8)idi-samayamurA ChAyanATa
--
9)manasA-SrI-rAma Isa-manOhari
SrI-jAnakI-manOhara Isa-manOhari
--------------------------------
10) phanipati-sAyi JhankAradwani
--------------------------------
11)Bhajare-bhaja Kannada
Ide-bhagyamu Kannada
ninnAda-nela Kannada
sAketa-niketana Kannada
-----------------------------
12) Ora-jupu KannadagouLa MMI*
sogasu-jUda KannadagouLa
-------------------------------
13) rAma-bhakti ShuddhabangALa MMI *
tappagane ShuddhabangALa
toli-nE-jEsina ShuddhabangALa
====================
14) endu-kaugalintu ShuddhadEsi
raghunandana ShuddhadEsi
-------------------------------
15) rAkA-Shasi-vadana Takka
16) ChallaganAto Vegavahini
17) nI-chittamu Vijaya-vasanta
============================
18)nagumomu abhEri *
--
19)manasu-nilpa abhOgi *
nannu-brOva abhOgi
nIlakaNTha-niranjana abhOgi
------------------------------
20)Adaya-SrIraghu ahiri Alathur- ,
challare ahiri MSS *,
etula-kApAdutuvo ahiri
pUlapAmpumida ahiri
--------------------------------
21)SrI-rAma-pAdamA amritavAhini DKP ,

-----------------------------
22)brOvabAramA bahudAri
----------------------------
23) girirAjasuta bangAla
MunupE-teliyaga bangAla
sAkshilEdanuchu bangAla
=======
24) enta-muddO bindumAlinin

25) mElukOvayya bouLi

26)kamalAptakula brindAvanasAranga

27) jayatu-jayatu chUrnika
----------------------
28)etula-brOtuvO chakravAka Alathur-Brothers ,
sugunamulE chakravAka Alathur
-------------------------------

29) bAgAyanayya chandrajyOti
ShashivadanA chandrajyOti
-------------------------------
30)mahAganESam bhavAbharaNam
31) ADamODi charukEsi MSS
32) nAdatanumanisham chittaranjani-mmi
33)kalalanErchina dIpika
34)evarani devAmritavarshini
35)nATimATa devakriya
36) teliyalEru dhEnuka MSS
37)lilagAnu-jUche divyamani
38)daya-jUchuTaku gAnavardhini
39)sadA-madini gambhIravANi
40)gAnamUrtE ganamUrti
41)evvarE-rAmayya gangEyabhUShaNi
42) AnandasAgara garudadwani
tatvameruga garudadwani
-------------
43) duDukUgala gouLa
44)gurulEkha gourImanOhari
DKP
45)intanuchu-varnimpa gundakriya
46)varAlandu gurjari
47)rA-rA-sitAramani hinolavasantam
48)nI-bhakti jayamanOhari
SrI-ramya-chittA jayamanOhari
yagnAdulu jayamanOhari
------------------
49)manavini-vinumA jayanArAyaNi
50)marugElarA jayantaSrI
51)vinatAsuta jayantasena
52)navanIta-chOra jenjUti
rAma-rAma-rAma jenjUti
53)anAthuDanu jingala
54)parAku-jEsina jujAhuli

55) vidhi-Emi kAmavardini
56)E-dAri kAntAmani
pAlintuvO kAntAmani
57)sarasa-sAmadAna kApinArAyaNi
58) nannu-kannatalli kEsari
59)kaligiyuntEgAda kIrvAni-mss
60)koniyAdina kOkiladwani
toli-nenu-jEyu kOkiladwani
61)dAsharathe kOkilapriya
62) samukhAna-nilva kOkilavarAli
63) madilOna kOlahalam
64) vAchAmagOcharamE kaikavasi
65) SrI-janaka-tanayE kalAkAnti
66) chinnAnADe kalAnidhi

67) ennadu-jUtuno kalAvati,
68) okasAri kalAvati
69) samayamu-yEmarakE kalgada
70)nI-muddumOmu kamalAmanOhari
-----------------------
71)SrI-gananAtham kanakAngi
72)nEnendu karnAtaka-bEhag
73)eTi-yOchanalu kiranAvali
parAku-nIkElarA kiranAvali
---------
74) I-diname latAngi
75) nenarunchinAnu mAlavi *
76)evaritO-nE mAnavati
77) manasA-SrI-rAmuni mAraranjani
78)chalamElarA mArgahindOlam
79)mrudu-bhAShana mAruvadhanyAsi
80)ennallu-tirigEdi malavaSrI
81)paritApamu manOhari
82) atukAdArani manOranjani
83)manasA-mana manasAmarthyavardhani
84)paralOka-bhaya mandAri
85)jaya-jaya-SrI mangalakaishiki
86) nIku-sari manirangu
rAnidi-rAdu manirangu
87) paTTi-viduvarAdu manjari
88)kripAla-vAla nAdavarAngini
-------------------------
89)sattalEni nAgAnandini
90) SrIpatE-nEpada nAgaswarALi
91)BhajanasEyu nArAyaNi DKP
rAmA-nIvE-gAni nArAyaNi
92) mAravairi nAsikAbhUShaNi
93)nAyeda naBhOmani
94)manavinAlakincharA nalinakAnti MSS
95) lEmi-delpa navanItam
96)
ninnuvina navarasakannada MSS
palukau-kanda navarasakannada
-------------------
97) palukavEmi pUrNachandrika,
SrI-rAma-rAma pUrNachandrika
telisi-rAma pUrNachandrika MMI
----------
98) kalugunA pUrNalalita
99) lAvanya-rAma pUrNashadjam
SrI-mAninI-manOhara pUrNashadjam
-----------
100)sanAtanA phalamanjari
101) SrI-nArasimha phalaranjani
102) varamaina pharaju

103) vinanAsakoni pratApavarALi
104)sArvaBhauma rAgapanjaram
varadA-navanItASha rAgapanjaram
105) sandEhamunu rAmapriya
106) nI-morabeTTite rUpavati
107) sItA-manOhara ramAmanOhari
108) durmArgachara ranjani
109)aparAdhamula rasALi MMI
110) mAkElarA ravichandrika
niravadhi ravichandrika*
111) grahabalamEmi revagupti MSS
112) mahima-dakkinchikO rishaBhapriya
113) padavinI sAlaga-Bhairavi
114)mOkshamu-galadA sAramati
115)prAnanAtha sUlini
116) muddumOmu sUryakAnta
117) menujUchi sarasAngi
118) anurAgamulE sarasvati
119)enta-vEdukontu sarasvati-manOhari MSS
120) nI-parAkramamu shanmukhapriya
vaddane-vAru shanmukhapriya
=
121) evaraina-lErA siddhasEna
122) nenarunchara simhavAhini
123) devAdidEva sindhurAmakriya , MSS ,
sudhAmAdhurya sindhurAmakriya
===
124) raminchuvArevarurA supOShini
125) vara-shikhivAhana supradIpa
126)prArabdhamiTLu swarAvaLi
127) varadarAja swaraBhuShaNi
128) sarijEsi tIvravAhini
129)enta-nErchina udayaravichandrika dkp

130) nijamarmamulanu umABharana MMI

131) kanTajUdumi vAchaspati

132)paramAtmudu vAgadhIswari
-------------------------------
133) Emani-pogadutura vIravasantha GNB , MLV ,
134) E-rAmuni-nammitinO vakulABharaNa
135) pariyAsakAmA vanaspati ,
==
136)manasulOni varamu MSS
136) nI-dayarAda vasantha-Bhairavi NCV
ramA-ramana vasantha-Bhairavi
--------------------
137) pAhi-rAma-dUta
vasantha-varaLi

138) vara-nArada vijayaSrI MSS

139) vinavE-O-manasA vivardhani
140)sarasIruhAnanA amritavarshiNi
==========================
TOTAL 140 RAGAMS
180 SONGS
=========================

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

in continuation of #331
===============

75)nI-dayarAda vasantha-Bhairavi NCV
--------------
76) vara-nArada vijayaSrI MSS
77)entanuchu yadukula-kAmbhOji DKP
78)hecharikagArAra yadukula-kAmbhOji MMI , MSS
===================================
80)rAga-sudhArasa AndhOlikA
81)Ora-jupu KannadagouLa MMI*

82)rAma-bhakti ShuddhabangALa MMI *
83)nagumomu abhEri (musiri, mss)
84)manasu-nilpa abhOgi *
85)Adaya-SrIraghu ahiri
86)brOvabAramA bahudAri

87)ADamODi charukEsi MSS
88)nAdatanumanisham chittaranjani-mmi

89)teliyalEru dhEnuka MSS
90)gurulEkha gourImanOhari
DKP

----
91)sarasa-sAmadAna kApinArAyaNi-mmi
92)kaligiyuntEgAda kIrvAni-mss
93)nenarunchinAnu mAlavi *

94)BhajanasEyu nArAyaNi DKP

95)manavinAlakincharA nalinakAnti MSS
96)ninnuvina navarasakannada MSS
97)telisi-rAma pUrNachandrika MMI

98)aparAdhamula rasALi MMI
99)devAdidEva sindhurAmakriya , MSS ,

100)nijamarmamulanu umABharana MMI
--------------------
=====================

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Thyagaraja Swami 's kritis are about 700 according to sangeethapriya site.
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/tributes/ ... ithis.html
------------------------------------------------------
The list of kritis can be sorted on the basis of ragams.
-----------------------------------------------------
Then I found that there are about 140 ragams having only one or two kritis.
Some of these 'single-kriti' ragams-kritis are very famous and nice.
------------------------------------------------------
I had also read that Thyagaraja Swami preferrred the first 32 meLakarta scales. even for these rare ragams.
To verify, I tried to list the single kriti ragams , alphabetically and note their parent scale.
----------------------------------------------
This is the work in last two days.
If the column in right side is yellow, then, it is a suddhamadhyamam scale
If it is cyan, then, it is pathimadhyamam scale
-----------------------------------------------
I observed that Thyagaraja Swami has carefully chosen, only such MK scales even in SuddhaMadhyama set, where there are no vivadi swaras.
----------------------------------------------
The non-vivadi scales are numbered
8 to 11, 14 to 17, 20 to 23, 26 to 29 ,only.
(16 scales).
The first 32 - using M1.
======================================
My contention is that we can totally avoid notation like R3,G3 , D3 and N3.
if we follow the Trinity's choice of ragams.
----------------------
We can then follow
S R1 R2 G1 G2 M1 M2 P D1 D2 N1 N2 S
as in Hindusthani music.

https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... a-keyboard
----------------------------------------------------
Even for swara-singing , there is no problem , as a raga based on a non-vivadi sampoorna meLa ragam , will not touch any vivadi swaram.
( am I right?)
===================================
I have used a pdf book named RARE RAGAS HANDLED BY THYAGARAJA,
=================================
and re-arranged the material.

https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... ms-parents

ajaysimha
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by ajaysimha »

great effort sir! liked it very much

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

ajaysimha wrote: 18 Oct 2019, 18:05 great effort sir! liked it very much
Very glad. Thank you.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

1) The songs in Nauka Charithram opera by Thyagaraja are explicitly erotic and vulgar in theme and lyrics...So unlike ALL the other kritis of him. and also unlike those of Shyama Sastry and MD.
Can we surmise that the set is spurious?
Are these being sung in concerts by any artiste?
=============================================
2) Are there any kritis by other greats from Purandaradasa, Kanakadasa, Ramadasu, NaraayaNa theertha, Tamil moovar, Sadasiva Brammendram, the Trinity, Swathi thiruNaaL, gopoalakrushna BAarathy and the three Sivans..erotic in theme?
( note that I have left out Annamacharya, OVK, )

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

RSR wrote: 12 Dec 2019, 11:33 1) The songs in Nauka Charithram opera by Thyagaraja are explicitly erotic and vulgar in theme and lyrics...So unlike ALL the other kritis of him. and also unlike those of Shyama Sastry and MD.
Can we surmise that the set is spurious?
Are these being sung in concerts by any artiste?
=============================================
2) Are there any kritis by other greats from Purandaradasa, Kanakadasa, Ramadasu, NaraayaNa theertha, Tamil moovar, Sadasiva Brammendram, the Trinity, Swathi thiruNaaL, gopoalakrushna BAarathy and the three Sivans..erotic in theme?
( note that I have left out Annamacharya, OVK, )
You forgot Soundarya Lahiri. Or the Azhwars, or Chaitanya, or Jayadeva Or Manikkavasagar and so on... None of them have had a problem with shringara and we revere them highly. Next thing you will call all of them vulgar.

The problem is not with Annamacharya or Thyagaraja or any of the above, it is simply that you have a huge puritanistic problem with shringara bhava, though no life or any of us would be here without it. In our old books bhakti was expressed through all emotions, not just dasa or vatsalya bhava. This puritanism is a conseqence of the Victorian era dogma imposed by others (and we know what those people did when no one was looking).

In this country, shringara has turned into a huge irony, where everyone from the "good" teenager to the godman pursue it covertly in problematic ways with a lot of shame or scandal involved, while in other places it has become an unhealthy addiction that could bring down their society in hedonism and depression, destroying families in the process.

I mean, we make shringara a sin, while we will soon be the most populous country on earth. :twisted: The next generation, fed up with the hypocrisy of their elders, and having unlimited access to far more than what their brains are safely designed to handle wants to make it an addiction. And they get into all sorts of problems. Where's balance? Where is awareness?

Neither is healthy and both extremes represent a colossal awareness failure. If food was an analogy, in such societies you either have obese man-hills or walking skeletons, but never anyone fit and healthy.

The puritanical facade of especially us brahmins conceals a very long history of very shady stuff under the carpet, and sometimes openly too. I have stories from 4 generations back and beyond of what arAjagam was done in the name of AchAram. Some of this even came out in the CM world last year. These days I do not want to elaborate on what their next gen's are doing. While the West, well, don't ask... it's law of the jungle :lol:

This is the result of treating everything through emotion and not awareness.

I have always felt that by channeling shringara into art and spirituality, people have found an outlet that is healthy and balanced, neither dogmatic nor addictive and it allowed them to express emotions that they cannot do in reality without creating problems, much like how we all want to fly like a bird but many "bird men" trying valiantly with no knowledge of science ended up dead before the airplane was invented.

To me both the theoretical brahmachari or monk who always worries about the opposite sex all the time and the addict who can't help himself are both suffering the same problem in 2 different ways. In both cases, I see an inability to be at balance and ease with oneself (asana) - it is not the characteristic of a well adjusted adult. Even Gandhiji, in my opinion, his brahmachari attempts became an ego thing for him, and it resulted in him doing creepy stuff many normal people wouldn't.

There is experience behind this. I have seen both extreme cases in my life for 2 of my friends. They both ended up a mess in their lives, in different ways. That is when I started questioning the whole thing. This is what happens when monks give theoretical advice on the subject.

I'd recommend reading Gopi Krishna's book on Kundalini the evolutionary energy in man or the series of books by an amazing author known only as Santatagamana on Amazon -- this is pure experience based knowing, without theory or dangerous dogmatic misunderstandings that fail the test of real life.

The best would be the Bhagavatam itself. The lessons in bhAgavata from the story of Puranjana to King Puru who lost their integrity and strength to due being shringara's victims to the way Krishna handles it as a true master of shringara - this is the only way to handle it. It took 12 years for me to understand it.

I just had to say this because you keep mentioning it. None of our composers ever had a problem with any of the rasas because they just saw them as different aspects of emotion and life. Only you and anyone else who wants to make one dimension of life holy and another a vulgarity have the problem. :ugeek:
Last edited by SrinathK on 13 Dec 2019, 15:49, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@339
@SrinathK
Sufferance of animal passion as a necessary evil, but still an evil, it is an evolution. from 'nagna' world. There is such a thing as 'sublimation' even according to Freud . ( Ego, Libido and then Super-ego ). All civilization is due to Super-ego. The animal-level desire becomes Romantic affection ( even Platonic). It is with such , that World Literature is the stuff. ( Ever tried the Bard? Tolstoy?)
I would rather not discuss things like Philosophy, Ethics, Literature and Social values , in this forum. Kindly do grant that I could have read more , reflected more and moved with greater souls. I wonder what RaviSri brothers would say from Ashramam of RamaNa Maharishi ! or devotees of Shirdi Mahaan would say! Ever read the lives of people like NarayanaGuru, C.F.Andrews, Mother Therasa ? Should we not raise ourselves from the humdrum lives and avoid cynicism?
'deha upaadhaikaL', do not make ultimate values in life.
Venerated heads of monastic orders in all the religions still exist today. and a few violations of the code, by some who go astray do not take away their glory.
--------------------------------
I just want to know, if there are kritis by Purandaradasa, Kanakadasa, Ramadasu, Naraayana Theertha, Sadasiva Brammendam, Shyama Sastry, MD, Subbaraya Sastry, Swathi ThirumnaaL, Goplakrushna Barathy.. (I will stop with them) who have created any krithi or song in the erotic theme. as done by Kshethragnya.
To the best of my knowledge, none of them including Thyagaraja did.
We do not have to go to Victorian era. for disapproving the erotic theme. Except in a small part of the Bagavatham tradition, stuff is not found in either Divya Prabandham or in Thevaram/Thiruvasakam.
If you want titillating trash, we get plenty in Devi Bagavatham. According to Indian Bakthi tradition, the greatest evil is lust. even worse than greed and pride. That is Bagavath Gita. Our tradition looks at Women as Motherhood. All Shyama Sastry songs are in veneration of ambaaL, So are quite a few by MD. Are they describing the erotic appeal?
Confine yourself strictly to CM lyrics and the accepted traditions.
If the vak-geya-karars held in veneration by CM community, have eschewed that theme, I am not far wrong in detesting the theme. likewise. I will be in good company.
So, just waiting, for a few songs explicitly erotic, by pre-Trinity the Trinity and their contemporaries. to correct my assertion.


RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Since when poets like Jayadeva became CM composers? My question was very specifically related to CM. I will take lessons about Ehics and values from other more deserving thinkers and practitioners.
A typical lumpen- half-baked 'kundalini-stuff' sociologist never concedes that there could be people like scientists, social workers, revolutionaries , and such, who hardly have the time or inclination for even thinking of eroticism. 'Let us not treat others like ourselves' in this respect. Address your harangue elsewhere.
@SrinathK
Last edited by RSR on 13 Dec 2019, 21:27, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@342
Thanks to Sri.V.Govindan, we have translations of ShyamaSastry, Thyagaraja and MD.
If you give a list of krithis , I can check them myself.
I hate all this tube stuff.

SrinathK
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

It should not be surprising that Thyagaraja composed in shringAra rasa and that somehow means naukA charitram could be spurious. I got triggered reading that - that whole shringAra is evil thing. Someone like Shuka gave us the bhAgavatam and the Uddhava gita, so why not Thyagaraja give us a naukA charitram?

Jayadeva is a vakgeyakara. The original gita govindam has ragas, and many of them are described like real characters, which having made enough metaphors on ragas, I can relate to as this happens when you know them very well.

All our scriptures have been careful to distinguish between shringAra as a rasa and an inner experience vs the usual results of uncontrolled lust. Only a bhAgavatam can discuss a Purana and a rasa lila in the same breath - because the results are proof. The explanation of the mAm Ekam sharnam vraja verse by Krishna in the Uddhava gita is... interesting. Since you mentioned Ramana Maharshi in high regard, may I recommend the version of the Bhagavatam by Nochur Venkataraman where this year at NGS he spoke about the gOpi gita? I am waiting for when he will get to the 11th skandam.

kritis like rA rA seeta ramani manOhara can be both vAtsalya Or shringAra bhAva too. Then there's kana kana ruchira. There are padams on shiva and muruga also.

In general, shringAra has always been the realm of Krishna and not Rama. Hence only kshetrayya and Annamacharya composed a lot of padams. Quite a few of the Kshetrayya padams were actually brought out in SSP.

Swati Tirunal has a lot of shringAra compositions to his credit.

And what about almost all varnams? Almost all of them are shringAra themed. Actually in the SSP it is said the varnam rUpamu juchi is MD's composition. Some say it was his father, Ramaswamy Dikshitar.
Last edited by SrinathK on 13 Dec 2019, 22:52, edited 2 times in total.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

If the vak-geya-karars held in veneration by CM community, have eschewed that theme, I am not far wrong in detesting the theme. likewise. I will be in good company.
You are definitely wrong in detesting srungara rasam. A poet is to be at ease in all the rasas. Contrarily, a poet can be revered only if he excels in all the rasas.

An introspection into your posts reveal two things:
1. You have a high degree of aversion towards srungaram and
2. You are not much acquainted with Bhakthi cult.
Whereas the first one is definitely personal, I like to address the second issue, as your posts if left unanswered might misguide the inclined.
stuff is not found in either Divya Prabandham


I hope you are totally unaware of the "madal" written by Thirumangai Azvar. It is an ancient practice wherein the rejected lover sings about his love to get back his good days with the lover. Azvar imagine himself as a lady and pines about his lover Narayana and longs for a divine unison. These poems are full of srungara rasa.

What do you understand by the word 'nappinai kongai mel vaithu kidandha malar maarba vaai thiravaai'. Will you not classify this as sringara rasa ? This was written by a female poet, Andaal !!
According to Indian Bakthi tradition, the greatest evil is lust. even worse than greed and pride.
Going by this, the Saints revered by you should have detested Gruhastashrama.
In reality, many took Sanyasa only after going through the phase of gruhastashrama. Sastras even prescribe the ideal days for experiencing srungara practically. Our dharma insist us to avoid lust, but never preach to avoid the normal relationship.
titillating trash, we get plenty in Devi Bagavatham.
You have left all the ideologies and theological values conveyed in the text you mentioned and quote this small segment as example without understanding the true meaning. This is indeed a sacrilege. There is no point in keeping these Saints at high pedestal without even understanding the tradition that they followed. Only a swan can separate water from milk, but not a hen is proved.
So are quite a few by MD
'sarasa sangita sahitya sthana dvayaya', 'komala tara pada yugale guccha jaya sthana yugale' - all are taken from the kritis of Sri Muthuswamy Dikshitar. You can search for the translation by yourself. If this is not sufficient, I can quote from the kritis of Syama Sastri too. Certainly, they do not appear erotic to me. I quote them as I want to show erotic words are seen in plenty in any of the compositions of great composers.
just waiting, for a few songs explicitly erotic, by pre-Trinity the Trinity and their contemporaries. to correct my assertion.
If you are aware of Melattur Venkataramana Sastri, you would have not said this. If you are unaware, just do a Google check. Whereas his Prahlada caritramu is totally devotional, his Usha parinayamu is extremely erotic. If possible, try to get a translation of the daru-s and sloka-s wherein he describes Usha and her encounter with Aniruddha. I hope I will get a blasphemous statement about Bhagavatam too once you do this.
The songs in Nauka Charithram opera by Thyagaraja are explicitly erotic and vulgar in theme
Your unfamiliarity with the medieval texts is reflected in this statement. Many of the descriptions given in Nauka caritram can be seen in Bengal and Marati versions of Nauka Caritram. However, Nauka caritramu are not as explicit as Gita Govindam. The swan and hen example goes with this too.
Are these being sung in concerts by any artiste?
What relevance does this statement have? Artist singing these compositions will change the lyrics?
Can we surmise that the set is spurious?
Again you are not aware about the works by the direct disciples of Svamigal. Valajapet Sri Venkataramana Bhagavatar has written a sloka wherein he mentions the two operas composed by his Guru. You and me are great authorities than Venkataramana Bhagavatar?
rA rA seeta ramani manOhara can be both vAtsalya Or shringAra bhAva too
Go through this kriti. You want to brand this as spurious. Then what about 'nee muddu momu' and 'endhu kowgilindhura'?

It is better to accept these compositions as it is believing blindly that these Saints will not even think of derailing from the track of dharma, rather than seeing with our tainted lens.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@344
@SrinathK
1) My question was pointed and precise. but you are bringing in all sorts of pedantic and presumptuous , preposterous and personal remarks. I should strongly register my objection and refrain from replying in kind. That would be demeaning.

2) CM begins with Purandaradasa . Jayadeva lived 300 years before Purandaradasa. .
and his poems were set to music much later.

3) Almost all the saint-poets were Vaishnavites and Krushna devotees. But which Krushna? The charming Balakrushnan and later the Gita-Acharyan. That is why I wanted to know if there are daasa saahithyams of erotic theme. Not likely.

4)"
As a teacher, Tyagaraja was said to be very strict, often harsh, with his pupils. He would insist on the right rendering of his songs. He would also not tolerate his pupils singing light hearted amorous songs such as Javalis, which were popular at that time. ]
https://sreenivasaraos.com/category/tyagaraja/
(see 14-4)

5)
Today, the ashtapadis are sung in a variety of tunes and the list below is just a sample of some of the raga scales used. The original tunes of the ashtapadis are unknown and likely lost in history
6) If SSP is so very authoritative, and comprehensive, ( I have read fully, the sketch of composers and musicians given there), there is no mention about Annamacharya. Even with regard to other composers, information is very scanty.

7) After all, he lived and created his book in the closing decades of 1890 -1900. and was a court musician. and we know that it was the court-music stuff that promotes dance and amorous themes and treatment. That applies to Swathi ThirunaaL also.

8) The Gita and Gospel according to St.Mathew are considered to be the greatest works. and there is no place for frivolous and silly interpolations there.

9) Though I am unable to locate right now, I have read that the Nouka stuff was NOT from either Kannada or Marathi sampradhayam.

10) Scholars specializing in the authentic history of Thyagaraja krithis may contribute their clarification.

In closing, I would like to mention that Rajaji totally rejected the idea that ' Naachiyaar Thiru mozhi', so full of erotic stuff, could have been written by ANDAL of exquisite Thiruppaavai.
Likewise, when there are 700 compositions of Thyagaraja Swami and there are only, 21 songs in the 'boat-song', ( I went through the translations of those songs in
http://translationsofsomesongsofcarntic ... araja.html
There is no continuity at all. It would make some sense, if the boy Krushna was the subject of 'naughty and bawdy' gopis. For, in one of these poems, the boy is said to escape and sit in the lap of his mother. !
it is justifiable to reject that these were the creations of THYAGARAJA.
Enough of this waste of time., in making people understand the difference between mystic affection and lust.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@345
The Swan is supposed to have the sense to separate the milk from water.
I do.

Sanyasin-composers of CM, were not gruhathaas. ( Sadasivam, NaarayaNa theertha, Venkata kavi, Ramadasu who spent more than a decade in jail, ). Purandaradasa and Kanakadasa were not house-holders after their enlightenment. Shyama Sastry was a devi-upasaka. As his creations are manageable, I will give more details soon after going through the translations.
If some songs are not sung in concerts, it means that it is not suitable for such audience. A question of delicacy.
The Boat Song seems to be a hot favourite of BN group. Not surprising.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

Alright I will leave it here. I apologize if I crossed a line, and a 2 generation gap, and I could have been more respectful, but this had triggered memories of some things in the lives of some people close to me that I've had the misfortune to see - for which the root cause was puritanical brainwashing in one case and ultra modernity in another. This whole thing can sometimes go so far beyond music and scriptures. The whole attitude towards this subject in India by my elder generations has never failed to strike me as the ultimate discrepancy between words and actual behavior.

I for one am not going to get your aversion to this rasa even when it comes from revered personalities, or how you can dismiss anything, whether ragas, schools, talas, visuals, dance, compositions, even live concerts, as spurious or unnecessary just because it doesn't fit into your preferences. Ok, we all have our likes and dislikes. But when you would like even great mahanubhavas to fit into your ideas of who they ought to be rather than who they were, that was too extreme IMHO.

But ok, this is your way and your taste and I will accept you for who you are. Music is like a wish fulfilling tree, there is something for everyone.

But your approach will never work for me.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@bhakthim dehi

I do not claim to have read ALL the hymns in 'Nalaayira Divya Prabandaham'. but I have read the hymns of Paeyaazhvar, Poykai Aazhvar , Boothaththaazhvar, Periyaazhvar, Kulasekara Aazvvar, AndaaL and a few from Nammaazhvar. The latter aazhvars like Vipranarayana did not catch my fancy . Vishnuchittar( Periyaazhvaar) is venerated as the foremost. and quoted by Barathy.
You might have heard about the Five great 'kaappiyangaL' of KaLabra age. ( 200 AD- 600 AD) ( Silappathikaaram, MaNimekalai, Jeevaka Chintamani, VaLaiyapathi and Kundalakesi). Of these, SILAPPATHIKARAM has some absolutely ravishing poetry in Madurai Canto ( 'Aaychiyar Kuravai'). ( it is from that Smt.MS has sung the immortal 'vadavaraiyai' ragamalika'). The Aaychiyar kuravai is a dance number extolling the memory of Krishna in the banks of Yamuna.. Kindly read what the poet Ilango adikal says in the closing stanza. of Silambu.
MaNimekalai likewise is a Buddhist didactic work in virulent objection to the life of Madhavi and she becomes a lady-monk.
These two are still available.
The third 'Jeevaka Chinthamani' is full of 'love'(lust) sports . The author was a Jain and is said to have justified it saying that he wrote all that to expose the futility of such life.
The other two exist only in fragments and are of very ordinary themes of vengeance by a wife on her husband by killing him after throwing him down from a precipice!
And all of them were said to be by jains/ buddhists.
Aadi Sankara also was challenged how having taken to Sanyasam as a boy, he can know the fullness of life. I dont remember the sequel.
In Sangam literature, 'akam' genre songs are all about romance. but hardly of any physical description.
MutthoLLayiram with a commentary by TKC is a gem. Such a fine treatment of bond of romance- not at all religious in theme. but stately!
That is our literary and cultural tradition.
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Usha PatiNayam has nothing to do with CM.
My discussion is strictly about pre-trinity, Trinity and contemporaries.
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By the way, I suppose you meant 'swan and duck' ( not hen).

rajeshnat
Posts: 9906
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rajeshnat »

CM is always about aural experiences. We donot have visual interpretation yet. It is moot for us to even dig deep to find the presence or absence of eroticism in words when at the most it is just fleeting that gets more camouflaged by musical rasa .As long as there is no crass representation we just have to move on taking a bit of presence or absence of shringara rasa in stride. Great post srinathk.

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