Guru Sishya Tree of Mrudangam Artistes

Carnatic Musicians
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raghavt
Posts: 224
Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 11:56

Post by raghavt »

Dear ignoramus,

That may be possible. However, Surendran sir used to sit beside PMI during concerts and was his student in his later performing years. I was told about this by Sri N. Babu, son of late Sri Neyyatinkara Vasudevan.

~ Raghav

suneeth.krishnan
Posts: 13
Joined: 17 Sep 2009, 18:19

Post by suneeth.krishnan »

@raghavt - Trivandrum V Surendran had his initial to advanced training under Velukkutty Sir only. This is a known fact to all. Later Velukkutty sir had sent him to study under PMI. But that time, PMI was too busy, and hence his son Rajamoni Sir was engaged for training Sri. Surendran.

raghavt
Posts: 224
Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 11:56

Post by raghavt »

Oh is that so? I didn't know that. Thanks for correcting me and also for the info. BTW cd u please introduce yourself... maybe u can send a message to me raghavendran_t@dell.com

suneeth.krishnan
Posts: 13
Joined: 17 Sep 2009, 18:19

Post by suneeth.krishnan »

@raghavt - I am not a musician - just a music lover. Also interested in reading books related to carnatic music and musicians. Am basially from Kollam, Kerala, and now settled in Bangalore. How about you ?

rajanp
Posts: 58
Joined: 19 Nov 2007, 13:39

Post by rajanp »

Aum

Mohan

I will need to do my sheet in excel and postt to you in a few days
as i have the full TREE for the Pudukkotai / Palani tradition downwards

Please mail me at rajanpad@nedbank.co.za


Aum

Rajan

mohan
Posts: 2806
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

Rajan - it is in HTML format not Excel - so please post the details here itself.

raghavt
Posts: 224
Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 11:56

Post by raghavt »

Hi suneeth.krishnan - I'm also based @ Bangalore. Why don't you send me a message to my email so that we can have an informal introduction. This wil ensure that the subject of the thread remains unaltered.

Rajan Sir - I am waiting for that XCEL sheet. ~ Raghav.

ambika.sundaram
Posts: 24
Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 11:46

Post by ambika.sundaram »

I would go with @suneeth.krishnan. Itz true that Surendran Sir was desciple of Velukkutty Sir for many years. Later he was sent to PMI. May be he got classes from PMI, but mainly he was trained by TRR only.

gn.sn42
Posts: 396
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56

Post by gn.sn42 »

mohan,

I looked at a variety of visualization tools. Here are three representative ones for your consideration:
  1. Network Diagram from Many Eyes is easy to use, and the resulting graph is stored online by Many Eyes, which can be convenient; but the automatically generated graph is poorly formatted and much tweaking is necessary to get the results you might like. (When you add to the data, the tweaking needs to be done over again.)
  2. Cytoscape is a fantastic tool for all kinds of biology visualizations. For a simple social network like this one, it may be overkill, but it's a good program and produces decent graphs automatically. You can also edit the graph in some detail for taste. The output is a variety of graphics formats such as PNG (a tip: enlarge the graph greatly when you export to PNG; the image will then be nicely readable on small monitors).
  3. Graphviz is very good and is specifically meant for this sort of graph. It is a bit harder to use and set up, though.
These are all open source or otherwise free for non-commercial use. There are few commercial tools out there mostly for org charts and so on. I don't see them as particularly good.

So if it were me, which one would I use? I'd probably go with Cytoscape and play with it for a while until I got a view I liked. But the job's not as simple as I hoped it would be, and you might certainly decide not to go there at all.

(Just to be clear: terrific data, wonderful service. Thanks awfully.)

mohan
Posts: 2806
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

gn thanks a lot for the research into visualisation tools - I looked at cytoscope and it looks very complicated and graphviz is hard too.

I tried to do it in Visio using the Org chart set up but it is not allowing me to to do mutliple links (where one person has studied under several gurus). I probably have to use the standard flowchart mode.
It is very time intensive to convert the tree so I will leave this project for a while until I have spare time to do it.

gn.sn42
Posts: 396
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56

Post by gn.sn42 »

mohan, yes, I think the time required is definitely too much for the incremental formatting benefit. (Perhaps someone else on the forum knows a better tool? I'll continue to look into these and if I can find something that's quick and effective, I'll let you know.)

lswaminathan
Posts: 33
Joined: 26 Aug 2006, 05:14

Post by lswaminathan »

Mohan:

Please add Dr. P. K. Swaminathan (USA) to Sri Umayalpuram K. Sivaraman's disciples list. Sri UKS came to USA exclusively to teach Swaminathan on several visits of over 2 months each between April 1999 and April 2001. Of course, realizing his young daughter Rajna's potential, took her under his wing as well.

Swaminathan runs Rhythm Fantasies, Inc. (the name chosen by Sri UKS himself) promoting South Indian music to the western audience. Under this, he runs the Sri Umayalpuram K. Sivaraman School of Mrudangam with lessons developed by Sri UKS.

Swaminathan has created a special english notation for the lessons, which is also used by Sri UKS's sishyas in Chennai, especially for Swaminathan's students who go there for intensive training.

Swaminathan performs only in USA.

Thanks

Lalitha Swaminathan

kishore.rajan
Posts: 9
Joined: 29 Sep 2009, 13:26

Post by kishore.rajan »

Trikkakkara Y N Santharam (Kanchira Maestro), and Trivandrum Balasubramoniam are desciples of Prof. Mavelikkara Velukkutty Nair.

erode14
Posts: 726
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 21:43

Post by erode14 »

Dear Shri Mohan,

Not intentionally, but I forgot to include some names. Please add.

Umayalpuram S.Swaminathan
R.Ragunath [Banglore]
R. Arun [Toronto].

Erode Nagaraj.

mohan
Posts: 2806
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

To ls, kr and en - thanks I have updated with the information provided

kishore.rajan
Posts: 9
Joined: 29 Sep 2009, 13:26

Post by kishore.rajan »

@mohan - It seems the one I had suggested is not updated yet.

"Trikkakkara Y N Santharam (Kanchira Maestro), and Trivandrum Balasubramoniam are desciples of Prof. Mavelikkara Velukkutty Nair"

mohan
Posts: 2806
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

kishore they are there. Try reloading the page - Ctrl-F5 in Internet Explorer.

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56

Post by mridhangam »

Trikkakkara Y N Santharam, Maestro ??? --> This brings us to the question of qualities of a maestro .. will u please explain sir ?

Mannarkoil J.Balaji
Last edited by mridhangam on 27 Oct 2009, 21:25, edited 1 time in total.

kishore.rajan
Posts: 9
Joined: 29 Sep 2009, 13:26

Post by kishore.rajan »

@mridhangam - let me first understand the criteria you are putting to be required as qualities of a maestro.

There are artists with extra-ordinary knowledge in the domain, but have not that much shined as a performer. Also, there are others who are extra-ordinary performers, who have little knowledge in the subject. You tell me, who among this is a Maestro.

People are having different views.

Santharam is an A grade artist in AIR. Let me understand the reasons you are putting forward to substantiate your view-point of not considering Santharam as a Maestro.

Btb, are you the Mannarkoil Balaji, who plays Mridangam ?

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

Could this conversation be split off into a separate thread?

I suggest that this is one of those threads best kept to the business of its title.

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

Mohan
Pl include Lakshman Mahadevan -disciple of TR Rajamani

http://ramanlakshman.com/lakshman.aspx

chandru2008
Posts: 25
Joined: 10 May 2008, 05:29

Post by chandru2008 »

Dear Shri Mohan

Excellent work ! Please add Bhairav Chandrashekar- Princeton, NJ - to Shri Umayalpuram K Sivaraman Disciple list. Bhairav also happens to be Shri UKS Grand Nephew and plays annually at the Umayalpuram Rama Mandiram - Seetha Rama kalayanam.

Thank you,

chandru2008
Posts: 25
Joined: 10 May 2008, 05:29

Post by chandru2008 »

Dear Shri Mohan,

Forgot to mention Bhairav Chandrasehkar plays in Chennai during the season.
Thank you,

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56

Post by mridhangam »

kishore.rajan wrote:@mridhangam - let me first understand the criteria you are putting to be required as qualities of a maestro.
Member krishiore.rajan you have only said Shri.Shantaram is a maestro and it is upto you to prove it. The onus is on u to substantiate.
kishore.rajan wrote:Santharam is an A grade artist in AIR.
can we consider all A grade artistes as maestros ?
kishore.rajan wrote: Btb, are you the Mannarkoil Balaji, who plays Mridangam ?
I am Mannarkoil Balaji.

Shri . Kishore Rajan

I am in no way trying to provoke you or anyone through this forum by starting this issue. I am just trying to understand a few things pointed out by you-especially the word maestro. In a public forum like this we have to be very careful with our words when we call someone a great vidwan or bash someone as pedestrian.

Going by your argument if Shri Santaram can be termed a Maestro how will u address Palghat Mani Iyer, Palani Subramania Pillai and a host of other living senior vidwans we have amidst us ? This is specifically why i asked you the criteria for spelling out a person a maestro. More over i have no grudge or no personal displeasure about any artiste in this field including Shri Shantaram. (In fact Shri Shantaram and i have shared stage quite a few times and i have high regard for his music is an entirely different matter). He may be related to you or he may be your guru or he may be none of the above to you and which is immaterial to me. I have highest regards for all the artistes in this field. My only contention is anyone and everyone cannot be termed something and gotten away without being noticed. Some persons write and some just ignore. I just want to put things in place and proper perspective.

Mannarkoil J Balaji

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

I agree entirely about the general spattering of words such as "vidwan" and "maestro" --- if applied to all, or even many, then what words do we have left for those at the top of the tree, past and present? For some, however, it is their feeling that it is a way of giving respect, or it is their personal opinion, to which, I suppose, they are entitled.

As to the words themselves; to my mind, maestro implies an extraordinary physical command. It takes a maestro to play something in a dozen different speeds; it takes a maestro to play different things, bowing and plucking, on a violin, both at the same time. The particular musican I have in mind does not, necessarily, woo me with his music, but seldom fails to leave me open-mouthed at his virtuosity.

(I still think we should discuss this in a different thread!)

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56

Post by mridhangam »

Nick H u are very much right ... and i respect your view about discussing this in a different thread too ... But one thing i dont agree with your view that personal opinions will find approbation in a forum like this. Personal opinions when made to appear in a forum should have authenticity, authority of the person opining and should have ample justification. Otherwise it will become like anyone can say anything about anybody ....We have a famous saying in Tamil "Thadi Eduthavan ellam Thandalkaaran". It will become that type of activity.

Anyone has a right to have personal opinions and no one can question the veracity of such opnions until it is put forth in forums.

J.Balaji
Last edited by mridhangam on 30 Oct 2009, 15:47, edited 1 time in total.

VISHNURAMPRASAD
Posts: 149
Joined: 08 Jul 2005, 11:52

Post by VISHNURAMPRASAD »

Sir IMHO :

We can safely conclude that Maestros are the likes of :-

the revered Ayya Pudukkottai Dakshinamurthy Pillai, Sarvashri Palghat Mani Iyer, Palani Subramania Pillai, Ramanathapuram Murugaboopathy, Umayalpuram Sivaraman, Palghat Raghu, T.K. Murthy, Vellore Ramabhadran & Shri Harishankar

And there are numerous great vidwans who were revered by the above Maestros themselves.

As the saying goes "Kaasiyai vida veesam punyam", "Gangayai vida punidhamaana nadhi"... which only concludes about the greatness of Kasi and Ganga, the maestros were "Niraikudams!"
Last edited by VISHNURAMPRASAD on 30 Oct 2009, 15:39, edited 1 time in total.

kishore.rajan
Posts: 9
Joined: 29 Sep 2009, 13:26

Post by kishore.rajan »

@mridhangam - I would like to withdraw my statement in calling Santharam as a maestro after reading from u. If you compare current Mridangam players with PMI or Palani, none of them would be maestros :)
Also, FYI, I have not even talked to santharam, except seeing in some stages. So no personal interests in calling him a maestro :)

@nick H - Yes, this needs to be a separate thread.

@VISHNURAMPRASAD - Don't you need to include Karaikudi Mani, Mavelikara Velukkutty Nair, and Kamalakar Rao in to your list ?

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

Indeed, Balaji, just as everyone has a right to an opinion, so do others to disagree and discuss --- especially in public forums :)

VISHNURAMPRASAD
Posts: 149
Joined: 08 Jul 2005, 11:52

Post by VISHNURAMPRASAD »

Dear Kishore.Rajan,

I have just given an indicative list. These were my personal favourites whom I have heard and enjoyed their unique styles in many live concerts and recordings. Shri Dakshinamurthy Pillai's name was included based on the immense popularity that he enjoyed and the influence that he had created for many generations though i have not heard his concert recordings barring few gramaphone plates.

My Grandpa who had the oppurtunity to listen to carnatic music from 1910s to 1970s used to quote names like Narayanasami Appa, Tanjore Ramdas Rao, Kutralam Sivavadivel Pillai, Venu Naicker, Palani Muthiah Pillai, Iluppoor Panjami (who was adept in playing Thavil, Mridangam and could sing as well), Umayalpuram Kothandarama Iyer (who was originally a Mridangam vidwan who later shifted to Ghatam), Palghat Ramachandra Iyer, Sakkottai Rangu Iyengar, Kumbakonam Azhaganambi Pillai etc and explain their individual Bhaanis with solkattus and nadais.

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56

Post by mridhangam »

Vishnuramprasad

You had given the legends names and they are all the names that the masters often refer to while reminiscing. Thank you so much.

J.Balaji

tharunthilak
Posts: 36
Joined: 17 Sep 2009, 17:15

Post by tharunthilak »

Palghat K Jayakrishnan is desciple of Palghat T R Rajamani.
Tripunithura N Radhakrishnan (Ghatom) is desciple of Parassala Ravi.
Trivandrum Balaji is desciple of Trivandrum R. Vaidyanathan.
Dr. G Babu is desciple of Kadanad V K Gopi.
Palghat Maheshkumar is desciple of Kadanad V K Gopi.
N Amrit (Kanchira) is desciple of G Harishankar (Kanchira).
V Suresh (Ghatom) is desciple of T V Gopalakrishnan.
Mavelikara R Rajesh & Uduppi Sridhar (Ghatom) are desciples Mavelikara Krishnan Kutty Nair.
Kollam Vidyadharan is desciple of Mavelikara Velukkutty Nair.

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56

Post by mridhangam »

Trivandrum Balaji is disciple of Sangita Kalanidhi Palghat Shri Raghu.

J.Balaji

VISHNURAMPRASAD
Posts: 149
Joined: 08 Jul 2005, 11:52

Post by VISHNURAMPRASAD »

Balaji Sir,

I was recollecting an anectode by the late Shri Pudukkottai Mahadevan who went to see Shri Palghat Mani Iyer when he was ailing during his last days where Shri Palghat Mani Iyer had remembered the genorosity of Shri Dakshinamurthy Pillai who helped him gain prominence in the field at a relatively very young age. Mahadevan sir said that Shri Mani Iyer was on tears when he quoted pillaivaal's gunaadisayams and he said Pillaival was his maanaseega guru. Mani Iyer also at that moment remembered Iluppoor Panjami who was a prodigy but died at a very young age and said God was kind enough to him for giving good life span to play for Maha vidwans and share the dias with the likes of Pillaival.

Till his last day PMI is said to have uttered the name of Pillaival. Such was his devotion and admiration!

On another note, When Mani iyer referred about Iluppur Panjami he also had said to Shri Mahadevan that Iluppur panjami was the one who had composed the popular chitta swarams for Niravadhi Sukhadha, Telisirama, Nenarunchi etc. Mani iyer had then said to have quoted that the playing of Shri Valayappatti Subramaniam was very much like Iluppur and it could be Iluppur who was born again as Valayappatti. What more tribute is needed for Shri Valayappatti than this one?

tharunthilak
Posts: 36
Joined: 17 Sep 2009, 17:15

Post by tharunthilak »

Balaji - Trivandrum Balaji's initial guru was Trivandrum R Vaidyanathan itself. Later he studied under Palghat Raghu too.

mohan
Posts: 2806
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

tharunthilak - thanks I will make the changes in a couple of days

tharunthilak
Posts: 36
Joined: 17 Sep 2009, 17:15

Post by tharunthilak »

@mohan - A correction needed. Mavelikara S R Raju is desciple of Mavelikara Krishnan Kutty Nair, and not a desciple of Palani.

veeyes
Posts: 2
Joined: 31 Jan 2009, 11:26

Post by veeyes »

Dr. G Babu (currently teaching at Indian Institute of Performing Arts in Bahrain) is a disciple of Shri Karaikudi R Mani. Besides teaching, he also performs in concerts - the recent Navarathri concerts in Trivandrum is an example (Sep 22 accompanying Amrutha Venkatesh)' also accompanied Shankaran Namboothiri in Bahrain for the Vijayadashami concert.

A link about the artiste is here http://kerala4u.in/94/personalities/dr-g-babumrudangist

tharunthilak
Posts: 36
Joined: 17 Sep 2009, 17:15

Post by tharunthilak »

@veeyes - If you know Babu, you may please check with him. Babu has studied under Kadanad Gopi for long years. Later he might have studied under Mani sir too. We cannot ignore the initial guru :)

veeyes
Posts: 2
Joined: 31 Jan 2009, 11:26

Post by veeyes »

tharunthilak wrote:@veeyes - If you know Babu, you may please check with him. Babu has studied under Kadanad Gopi for long years. Later he might have studied under Mani sir too. We cannot ignore the initial guru :)

I did see your earlier post on Shri Gopi's shishyas and Dr Babu was listed in there. Perhaps, I should have been more clearer in my post that Dr Babu has since been a disciple of Shri Mani also. My intention was not to ignore the initial guru. Apologies if it came out that way. :)
Last edited by veeyes on 10 Nov 2009, 12:44, edited 1 time in total.

tharunthilak
Posts: 36
Joined: 17 Sep 2009, 17:15

Post by tharunthilak »

@veeyes - No worries. I was making a general statement. I know you were not purposefully trying to ignore the initial guru. :) But there are lop of people who simply ignore the initial guru (if they are not that popular), and will mention only their popular second guru.

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