Ramnad Krishnan
http://www.badongo.com/file/2288436
Enduku-Harikhamboji
Not from this concert.But another one which evokes a mood very similar to the one in this Black and White Photograph.
Some soulful Flute , too.By T Viswanathan.
If this Comml by any chance, someone please alert me.I will withdraw it.I have this from a long long time - from a rare follower of Ramnad Krishnans Music living in Adyar..
Enduku-Harikhamboji
Not from this concert.But another one which evokes a mood very similar to the one in this Black and White Photograph.
Some soulful Flute , too.By T Viswanathan.
If this Comml by any chance, someone please alert me.I will withdraw it.I have this from a long long time - from a rare follower of Ramnad Krishnans Music living in Adyar..
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Coolkarni Sir:
I have had the misfortune of learning about this forum rather late - resulting in my missing several precious downloads, particularly those of UKS (as mentioned in my recent post in the other thread on UKS) and the ones in this thread that were posted around a year earlier. Is there a remote chance that you can upload those old recording of RNK again?
BTW, I have excerpts of an RNK+MSG+Sankaran concert (probably dating back to the sixties). Starts off with MAkElarA, followed byIllallO PraNathArthiharA, then a Saveri (lyrics not very clear). A splendid concert with some outstanding accompaniment by MSG and Sankaran (in particular). The Saveri must rank as one of the very best I have heard, with a great Neraval and KalpanAswaram. This is followed by a sedate SahAnA (Giripai) and an elaborate, masterly Akshaya linga vibhO. A thani follows this and unfortunately the concert gets truncated after a few minutes into the Thani. Sankaran's following right thru is ultimate "sukham" and majestic... This is a "MUST listen" for RNK fans AND Sankaran fans...
My son and I have listened to this concert so many times - I have lost track of the number and also lost some of the tracks....what I meant was that the CD has developed scratches resulting in distorted audio...I am trying to get another copy of the same somehow and will upload a copy as soon as possible...
Coolkarni Sir....do you live in the US? As mentioned in the UKS thread, I live in NJ...
A general question to the members of this forum: How do we exchange contact information with individual members?
I have had the misfortune of learning about this forum rather late - resulting in my missing several precious downloads, particularly those of UKS (as mentioned in my recent post in the other thread on UKS) and the ones in this thread that were posted around a year earlier. Is there a remote chance that you can upload those old recording of RNK again?
BTW, I have excerpts of an RNK+MSG+Sankaran concert (probably dating back to the sixties). Starts off with MAkElarA, followed byIllallO PraNathArthiharA, then a Saveri (lyrics not very clear). A splendid concert with some outstanding accompaniment by MSG and Sankaran (in particular). The Saveri must rank as one of the very best I have heard, with a great Neraval and KalpanAswaram. This is followed by a sedate SahAnA (Giripai) and an elaborate, masterly Akshaya linga vibhO. A thani follows this and unfortunately the concert gets truncated after a few minutes into the Thani. Sankaran's following right thru is ultimate "sukham" and majestic... This is a "MUST listen" for RNK fans AND Sankaran fans...
My son and I have listened to this concert so many times - I have lost track of the number and also lost some of the tracks....what I meant was that the CD has developed scratches resulting in distorted audio...I am trying to get another copy of the same somehow and will upload a copy as soon as possible...
Coolkarni Sir....do you live in the US? As mentioned in the UKS thread, I live in NJ...
A general question to the members of this forum: How do we exchange contact information with individual members?
true rasika
One of the most satisfying aspects of a forum like this (that has been around for quite some time ) is its ability to attract serious rasikas and who can enjoy and , and in the process add value to the proceedings.
It is quite possible that new entrants may feel missed out , but the best way is to open up-like you have done- and travel further.
Not necessarily for tracks alone , since you will observe that there are many more dimensions , to the proceedings here.
So please feel Welcome and try to catch up with whatever interests you.
We will do our best to bring back the expired tracks.
Ramnad Krishnan- Yes I will try and see what can be done.These days I wait for a few days to give Thanjavur ,ample time,to help us all with his links and then sit to work on stuff that may not be covered there.
You can exchange information by clicking on the profile of the member and getting the email ID from there.
And Yes.I live in Chennai.
One of the most satisfying aspects of a forum like this (that has been around for quite some time ) is its ability to attract serious rasikas and who can enjoy and , and in the process add value to the proceedings.
It is quite possible that new entrants may feel missed out , but the best way is to open up-like you have done- and travel further.
Not necessarily for tracks alone , since you will observe that there are many more dimensions , to the proceedings here.
So please feel Welcome and try to catch up with whatever interests you.
We will do our best to bring back the expired tracks.
Ramnad Krishnan- Yes I will try and see what can be done.These days I wait for a few days to give Thanjavur ,ample time,to help us all with his links and then sit to work on stuff that may not be covered there.
You can exchange information by clicking on the profile of the member and getting the email ID from there.
And Yes.I live in Chennai.
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Yesterday (6/5/07) All India Radio, Chennai-A broadcast a concert in the morning (8.45 am to 9.45 am) From the voice, I thought I was hearing OST. It was ditto OST style in many places. But, normally AIR Chennai broadcasts concert of yesteryears. It made me think twice. The name was announced as Ramnad Krishnan. Then I thought I have heard more of OST than RNK.
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A rarely heard bAle bAlEndu - Ritigowla ragam
http://www.sendspace.com/file/xlffju
(there's mention of rAma's sister in this kriti - pardon my ignorance, who is she?)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/xlffju
(there's mention of rAma's sister in this kriti - pardon my ignorance, who is she?)
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ragam-taLam:ragam-talam wrote:(there's mention of rAma's sister in this kriti - pardon my ignorance, who is she?)
vishNu s(ah)OdarI - vishNU's sister - pArvatI/yOgamAyA
And that is why, in mInAkSi tirukalyANam, since her father (maladhwaja pANDiyan) was no more, her brother, vishNu gives her away.
The motif occurs in several compositions - starting with ANDAL's dream about her wedding where she says 'maNamAlai andari SUTTa kanA kaNDEn tOzhi nAn' - traditionally, the to-be sister-in-law performs this.
pArvatI is referred to as rAma sahOdari/krishNa sahOdari as they are but different forms of vishNu. SyAmA SAstri uses it cleverly with his mudra in many compositions - SyAma krishNa s(ah)Odari to refer to pArvatI.
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Not in the rAmAyaNa - in krishNAvatAram, pArvatI is born as yOgamAyA - the girl born to yaSOdA - the baby that is switched for krishNa, and flies out of kamsa's hands when he tries to do away with 'dEvakI's 8th child' even it is a girl.ragam-talam wrote:rshankar, thank you.
Is this the link betwen Saivism and Vaishnavism? Does Rama's sister make an appearance in Ramayana?
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Recently I watched a video documentary on Ramnad Krishnan. It's very well put together. There are musings by various artistes, e.g. U.Sivaraman, N.Ramani, etc. In one place Lalgudi Jayaraman (speaking through his daughter) says how Ramnad Krishnan once named him 'Jaalgudi Layaraman' in praise of LGJ's control over laya.
Touching moment indeed, one maestro recognizing the greatness of another.
I would highly recommend this DVD - must be available in one of the music stores in Madras. I hope to get it next time I am there.
And here is a vintage picture of the two maestros:
Touching moment indeed, one maestro recognizing the greatness of another.
I would highly recommend this DVD - must be available in one of the music stores in Madras. I hope to get it next time I am there.
And here is a vintage picture of the two maestros:
Last edited by ragam-talam on 13 May 2008, 02:26, edited 1 time in total.
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In this version of 'bAlE bAlEndu bhUSaNI', I did have some issues with the splitting in the AP 'phAla lOcanI SrI dhamrasamvardhini sakala lOka jananI' where Sri Krishnan splits it as 'phAla lOcani dharmasam.....vardhini sakala lOka jananI' and a few sangatIs are sung for the bolded part - almost suggesting 'some dharma':Pragam-talam wrote:A rarely heard bAle bAlEndu - Ritigowla ragam
http://www.sendspace.com/file/xlffju
(there's mention of rAma's sister in this kriti - pardon my ignorance, who is she?)
Vijayalakshmi Subramaniam's and Nityashri's versions of this composition split the AP after 'dharmasamvardhini'...and sound 'more intact' to me.
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The way I see it--and I care a great deal about sAhityam as Ravi does--is that when the music is great, I pay less attention to padach chEdams and mispronunciations, provided there are just a few in the entire concert. When the music isn't that good, I notice them more, and what do you know? The mistakes are not that rare in those concerts!
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My review of the DVD on Legendary Ramnad Krishnan: http://carnaticmusicreview.wordpress.co ... -krishnan/
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A Great Musician--there was a Jilu Jiluppu in his Shaareeram(voice).Very friendly and overtly diffident at times about his abilities and need for recognition.An incident.
Once in Bombay my father had arranged under the auspices of the Sabha,a concert by Ramnad Krishnan(I am quoting from my Father's book Musings on Music and Musicians) and arranged Palghat Mani Iyer to accompany him to give Ramnad Krishnan the "boost" he richly deserved . On the day of the concert Ramnad Krishnan(who I think was hosted at the Concerns Hotel in Matunga)came to see Mani Iyer.After the initial namaskaram Sri Krishnan's opening gambit for conversation was the statement--I quote verbatim from my father's book -
"-this evening I propose to sing Pallavi that I have prepared--" Mani Iyer at once cut in with the query "Have you sung it before? to which Krishnan replies NO--Out shot Mani Iyer's response: "Vishapareekshai Vendam"--you choose any one of the numerous pallavis especially of Mazhavarayanendal Subbarama Bhagavathar you are known for. After the remark there was a terrible stillness in the atmosphere.I could see that Krishna Iyer was crestfallen.He probably had expected that Mani Iyer would hear the Pallavi and compliment him.
The story does not end there.The concert later at the Podar hall was not acclaimed a success by the public.Later in the evening I ventured to Mani Iyer my impression that the concert was not a success,to which he shot out a striking comment "Sri Krishna Iyer was all the time obsessed with my presence. He should instead have gone about his business and sung according to his best lights leaving me to do my job :.
Now fifty years later in my mind when I revisit the scene,how many of the younger musicians including KVN were simply over-awed by Mani Iyer's stature that it affected their performing when it should have been the other way around. Also younger forumites who may not have had a chance to see Mani Iyer play in person might think he was against improvisation and innovation from the stage.(based on the remark Visha Pareekshai vendam).Nothing could be farther from the truth so far as PMI is concerned. PMI believed in not experimenting in front of an audience and had too much respect for the audience although many in the audience in those days may not have been sophisticated enough to note the infractions.
Back to Ramnad Krishnan--his stint at Wesleyan was short-lived because he became "home-sick" like a little kid(he was 50 years old at that time) and despite pleadings by Flute T Viswa,he did not complete his contract with Wesleyan and returned post hastily. This was his bane. While the Brindamma influence helped him in his repertoire and style and presentation,he used to be the "butt-end' of jokes by her about his perennial hasty reactions and speedy responses without thinking things thro.
While he happened to be not far behind in age with the stalwarts at that time--this inhibited his chances of coming up as the former were dominatiing the scene and Ramnad Krishnan was equally ambivalent about whether he should stick to his GNB style Brikas or the sedate style of the Dhanammal School. My personal opinion-- he was a great artist who died early before the previous stalwarts decided to hang up their boots and that would have opened up doors for him as it did for KVN,TMT,MDR et al.
For trivia buffs, Ramnad Krishnan taught Dancer Kumari Kamala(Kamala Lakshminarayana) vocal music!!!
Once in Bombay my father had arranged under the auspices of the Sabha,a concert by Ramnad Krishnan(I am quoting from my Father's book Musings on Music and Musicians) and arranged Palghat Mani Iyer to accompany him to give Ramnad Krishnan the "boost" he richly deserved . On the day of the concert Ramnad Krishnan(who I think was hosted at the Concerns Hotel in Matunga)came to see Mani Iyer.After the initial namaskaram Sri Krishnan's opening gambit for conversation was the statement--I quote verbatim from my father's book -
"-this evening I propose to sing Pallavi that I have prepared--" Mani Iyer at once cut in with the query "Have you sung it before? to which Krishnan replies NO--Out shot Mani Iyer's response: "Vishapareekshai Vendam"--you choose any one of the numerous pallavis especially of Mazhavarayanendal Subbarama Bhagavathar you are known for. After the remark there was a terrible stillness in the atmosphere.I could see that Krishna Iyer was crestfallen.He probably had expected that Mani Iyer would hear the Pallavi and compliment him.
The story does not end there.The concert later at the Podar hall was not acclaimed a success by the public.Later in the evening I ventured to Mani Iyer my impression that the concert was not a success,to which he shot out a striking comment "Sri Krishna Iyer was all the time obsessed with my presence. He should instead have gone about his business and sung according to his best lights leaving me to do my job :.
Now fifty years later in my mind when I revisit the scene,how many of the younger musicians including KVN were simply over-awed by Mani Iyer's stature that it affected their performing when it should have been the other way around. Also younger forumites who may not have had a chance to see Mani Iyer play in person might think he was against improvisation and innovation from the stage.(based on the remark Visha Pareekshai vendam).Nothing could be farther from the truth so far as PMI is concerned. PMI believed in not experimenting in front of an audience and had too much respect for the audience although many in the audience in those days may not have been sophisticated enough to note the infractions.
Back to Ramnad Krishnan--his stint at Wesleyan was short-lived because he became "home-sick" like a little kid(he was 50 years old at that time) and despite pleadings by Flute T Viswa,he did not complete his contract with Wesleyan and returned post hastily. This was his bane. While the Brindamma influence helped him in his repertoire and style and presentation,he used to be the "butt-end' of jokes by her about his perennial hasty reactions and speedy responses without thinking things thro.
While he happened to be not far behind in age with the stalwarts at that time--this inhibited his chances of coming up as the former were dominatiing the scene and Ramnad Krishnan was equally ambivalent about whether he should stick to his GNB style Brikas or the sedate style of the Dhanammal School. My personal opinion-- he was a great artist who died early before the previous stalwarts decided to hang up their boots and that would have opened up doors for him as it did for KVN,TMT,MDR et al.
For trivia buffs, Ramnad Krishnan taught Dancer Kumari Kamala(Kamala Lakshminarayana) vocal music!!!
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Ramnad K just wanted to leave after 2 weeks because of VethaLai-Btel nut etc was not available then & to him life was not worth it without such things! I used to pick him up at weslyan & drop him off after EVERY weekend. He literally begged me to send him back to Chenaai with some one who would take care of him in the plane and pretty much moved in with me!Finally Air India Ramachandran arranged the seat next to Rubin Mama & we dropped himm off at JFK!.....The interesting part was T.Viswa had the ideal car- a 50 dollar bomb- which I drove to JFK- IT Would only last 10 mins & stop. We had to wait till it cooled- I was in Manhattan & did not have my own!-; Viswa asked me to ABANDON the car in the Parking Lot but just remove the License Plates as it was legally needed by him. I managed to remove them pretty much removing them with my bare hands almost as no tools were available; In the meanwhile R.K. was delighting us with his fantastic Sahana. After I removed them & we were ready to leave there was a Flash light & a person flashed the F.B.I. Badge & told me "You are under Arrest"! Those were simpler days & after I showed NASA BADGE& came up with a plausible explanation he let us poff & all of us returned to my apt. in the Bomb taking 3 hours to do so!.......The only regret is R.K. offered to sing everything he knew & said I could record them for helping him! Sadly I
did not have a tape trecorder then & also not the time as I was mostly out of town on the Moon Project! VKV
did not have a tape trecorder then & also not the time as I was mostly out of town on the Moon Project! VKV
Last edited by cacm on 12 Nov 2009, 04:10, edited 1 time in total.
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VKV: Great story! Is it not amazing how crazy YOU must have been about Music(and literally starving for it in the late sixties when there was hardly an opportunity to listen to artistes because there was no institution nor a rich patron who could sponsor a trip!!
I can picture the scene(although I was not present in 1967 during MS/TS trip to UN Concert) you lugging TKM's Mridangam,or Vinayakaram's Ghatam from the car to the venue(double parking with its hazards with the musicians merrily walking away unmindful of your predicament ,with the late CVN playing the courtly diplomat's role!!--living on a shoestring budget and still finding the ways and means to host artists and "spin them" around the City.
Wow!! Won't the forumites love to read a blow-by-blow account of those epoch-making events!! You be the narrator and I will put some 'masala' into it!!!
DEAL?
I can picture the scene(although I was not present in 1967 during MS/TS trip to UN Concert) you lugging TKM's Mridangam,or Vinayakaram's Ghatam from the car to the venue(double parking with its hazards with the musicians merrily walking away unmindful of your predicament ,with the late CVN playing the courtly diplomat's role!!--living on a shoestring budget and still finding the ways and means to host artists and "spin them" around the City.
Wow!! Won't the forumites love to read a blow-by-blow account of those epoch-making events!! You be the narrator and I will put some 'masala' into it!!!
DEAL?
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VKV/MKR Sir's
There is an opinion that shri ramnad krishnan was brilliant till the point he was sticking to GNB style of brighas, but in the later years he orienting towards Brindamma/mukthammA style he lost his brilliant touch . I guesss he sticking to polarized traditions is bit of too much overkill for any one to adapt it . Have you both heard and felt the two opposite sides. Incidentally his death was in 1973, kind of early too , he was just 55 years. His akshayalingavibhO in shankarabharanam and sahana RTP is my perennial favourites of mine.
There is an opinion that shri ramnad krishnan was brilliant till the point he was sticking to GNB style of brighas, but in the later years he orienting towards Brindamma/mukthammA style he lost his brilliant touch . I guesss he sticking to polarized traditions is bit of too much overkill for any one to adapt it . Have you both heard and felt the two opposite sides. Incidentally his death was in 1973, kind of early too , he was just 55 years. His akshayalingavibhO in shankarabharanam and sahana RTP is my perennial favourites of mine.
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There is some truth in what you are saying here. I find that every musician pretty much goes thru' STAGES in his musical career. I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY MUSICIAN in carnatic musicwho did not try to be a GNB but in my opinion there has been ONLY ONE GNB. The ones who succeeded are the ones who stuck to their strenghths & Genius like MMI or MDR. R K initially also started in this route when he was younger but actually he MODIFIED his efforts by very subtle embellishmrnts like KVN did with ARI'S music. Aleppy Venkatesan in a two part series on LAYA at Saraswathi has CLEARLY delienated WHAT MUSICIANS like R.K. & KVN have done in their own creative ways to distinguish themselves from their peers. It is logical from my point of view that as a career progresses the eschewing of Gimmickery approaches in terms of voice culture & that in my opinion can only lead to Brinda Amma's type of music which eschews any type of Fashiness & just goes to the core of our music. So to me his going in that direction is not at all surprising. In my opinion his later stage music is SIMPLY DIVINE....Sorry if I am not expressing myself in language not technical enough. We have to have a long listening session with examples to do proper justice. vkvrajeshnat wrote:VKV/MKR Sir's
There is an opinion that shri ramnad krishnan was brilliant till the point he was sticking to GNB style of brighas, but in the later years he orienting towards Brindamma/mukthammA style he lost his brilliant touch . I guesss he sticking to polarized traditions is bit of too much overkill for any one to adapt it . Have you both heard and felt the two opposite sides. Incidentally his death was in 1973, kind of early too , he was just 55 years. His akshayalingavibhO in shankarabharanam and sahana RTP is my perennial favourites of mine.
Last edited by cacm on 12 Nov 2009, 09:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Bilahari:Would love to discuss their styles-violinists--of the ones you have mentioned I have heard Dwaram only a couple of times in the MA and that too during the 9 P.M. slot(yes there was a 9 P.M. slot reserved for the insomniacs!!-About Dwaram his style was suited to solo--I recall the sound was very pleasing.
The others--heard plenty and except for MSG(whom I did not have a chance to befriend) all of them are close family friends-- a few anecdotes:
TNK we used to call him Krishna Mama-- a very jovial,unassuming personality--once he was practising in my aunt's house in San Thome(because of our family's long-standing connection with SSI,TNK also became a close friend of our family--his only sister Rajam(brilliant in both CM and Hindusthani) and my cousin sister were the same age and good friends--his youngest brother Ganesh(an excellent Flute player--dabbler I should say---would have been a great Mali disciple(in the fifties Mali lived in Bazaar Road in Mylapore not too far from TNK's house). back to the practice story.
TNK was playing Sankarabharanam -alapana etc and started playing Swara raga sudha--he forgot the Charanam for a moment he was "stuck" My aunt came to his rescue with Moooladhara-HOW could she know it-we all asked her-she said she learnt for TWO years under Sreekantiah(Father of Papa Venkatrama Ayya) and this was one krithi that was still fresh in her mind---this was almost 55-60 years ago--and at that time it was 35 years since she was taught the song--ofcourse she never played a single note after her tutelege!! TNK's violin sound is still flawless despite the fact that he is 80 years old.
I have never seen a Vidwan who was totally calm and nonchalant before a performance as TNK.
More on others later!!
The others--heard plenty and except for MSG(whom I did not have a chance to befriend) all of them are close family friends-- a few anecdotes:
TNK we used to call him Krishna Mama-- a very jovial,unassuming personality--once he was practising in my aunt's house in San Thome(because of our family's long-standing connection with SSI,TNK also became a close friend of our family--his only sister Rajam(brilliant in both CM and Hindusthani) and my cousin sister were the same age and good friends--his youngest brother Ganesh(an excellent Flute player--dabbler I should say---would have been a great Mali disciple(in the fifties Mali lived in Bazaar Road in Mylapore not too far from TNK's house). back to the practice story.
TNK was playing Sankarabharanam -alapana etc and started playing Swara raga sudha--he forgot the Charanam for a moment he was "stuck" My aunt came to his rescue with Moooladhara-HOW could she know it-we all asked her-she said she learnt for TWO years under Sreekantiah(Father of Papa Venkatrama Ayya) and this was one krithi that was still fresh in her mind---this was almost 55-60 years ago--and at that time it was 35 years since she was taught the song--ofcourse she never played a single note after her tutelege!! TNK's violin sound is still flawless despite the fact that he is 80 years old.
I have never seen a Vidwan who was totally calm and nonchalant before a performance as TNK.
More on others later!!
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Let me try to dig few recordings gnb style of ramnad krishnan I am pretty sure with brighas. With respect to brindamma style of ramnad krishnan I am not sure if I am able to map one to that style.vkv43034 wrote: There is some truth in what you are saying here. .Sorry if I am not expressing myself in language not technical enough. We have to have a long listening session with examples to do proper justice. vkv
My periappa also tells me that after 1960's till the advent of movies like shankarAbharanam in 80's there was a lull period. Infact we dont talk about truly wonderful stars in that decade or half like Ramnad krishnan, TRS MDR,manakkAl and SKR vs say musicians like gnb-mmi-ssi-ariyakudi . I guess to an extent their sishya parampara also did not become that popular (infact musicians like doyen manakkal dont even have a sishya). I guess the lull period just got cleared with say MLV , DKJ, KVN and to a great extent santhAnam who drew more crowds than many of them.
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My periappa also tells me that after 1960's till the advent of movies like shankarAbharanam in 80's there was a lull period. Infact we dont talk about truly wonderful stars in that decade or half like Ramnad krishnan, TRS MDR,manakkAl and SKR vs say musicians like gnb-mmi-ssi-ariyakudi . I guess to an extent their sishya parampara also did not become that popular (infact musicians like doyen manakkal dont even have a sishya). I guess the lull period just got cleared with say MLV , DKJ, KVN and to a great extent santhAnam who drew more crowds than many of them Rajeshnat said.
In my opinion ARI-SSI-GNB-MMI had established a BRAND NAME& IDENTITY as well as COMMITTED FANS to such an extent that anyone else pretty much was reduced to VERY FEW concerts per year IRRESPECTIVE of how good they were. The only new faces were in violin:TNK,LGJ & MSG introduced new wrinkles in both accompanying& playing resulting in a formidable trio. In Mridangam area PMI& PALANI were on the Summit by themselves& very great ones like Palghat Raghu,US, T.S were pretty much reduced in terms of popularity to indulge in -to quote a Physics term- various linear combinations+nuances to be semi-popular. It is the same nuancing approach that MDR,SKR SUCCESSFULLY used & had FANATIC FANS-including me-; In the usual fashion of putting persons down TRS was considered too intellectual & Manakkal was dubbed a speed merchant- indeed his tempo& pace was truly amazing- & there was some truth in the criticism. MDR was an intellectual type as well as quite educated so he was content with his following which tended to be BOTH knowledgeable tho' this group had NO clout in his getting any awards etc. I have been present when SKR asked MMI for advice on how to become famous like him & MMI- ONE OF THE few, GNB being the other one- who was very honest told him that when he(MMI) started in the field he specialized in the RARE ragas based on Mazhavaraya s. school approach; He was advised that if he did not sing Gana ragas & compositions which public can identify with him he will get nowhere. SKR agreed with MMI but did not change his style& approach. I am claiming in every arena- In Tennis why MAC was follwed by Lendl, Sampras,& THE REST is quite obvious- it is the UNDERSTANDING & IMPLEMENTATION of STRATEGIES that results in public adulation, recognition etc.This Phenomenon is RULING the field today...
The Golden era musicians had the ADVANTAGE of being there first in terms of innovations but THEY WERE GREAT without any doubt.......VKV
In my opinion ARI-SSI-GNB-MMI had established a BRAND NAME& IDENTITY as well as COMMITTED FANS to such an extent that anyone else pretty much was reduced to VERY FEW concerts per year IRRESPECTIVE of how good they were. The only new faces were in violin:TNK,LGJ & MSG introduced new wrinkles in both accompanying& playing resulting in a formidable trio. In Mridangam area PMI& PALANI were on the Summit by themselves& very great ones like Palghat Raghu,US, T.S were pretty much reduced in terms of popularity to indulge in -to quote a Physics term- various linear combinations+nuances to be semi-popular. It is the same nuancing approach that MDR,SKR SUCCESSFULLY used & had FANATIC FANS-including me-; In the usual fashion of putting persons down TRS was considered too intellectual & Manakkal was dubbed a speed merchant- indeed his tempo& pace was truly amazing- & there was some truth in the criticism. MDR was an intellectual type as well as quite educated so he was content with his following which tended to be BOTH knowledgeable tho' this group had NO clout in his getting any awards etc. I have been present when SKR asked MMI for advice on how to become famous like him & MMI- ONE OF THE few, GNB being the other one- who was very honest told him that when he(MMI) started in the field he specialized in the RARE ragas based on Mazhavaraya s. school approach; He was advised that if he did not sing Gana ragas & compositions which public can identify with him he will get nowhere. SKR agreed with MMI but did not change his style& approach. I am claiming in every arena- In Tennis why MAC was follwed by Lendl, Sampras,& THE REST is quite obvious- it is the UNDERSTANDING & IMPLEMENTATION of STRATEGIES that results in public adulation, recognition etc.This Phenomenon is RULING the field today...
The Golden era musicians had the ADVANTAGE of being there first in terms of innovations but THEY WERE GREAT without any doubt.......VKV
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RAJESHNAT; Re; your query about RK's GNB style morphing into Brindamma's style,try listening closely to RK's lavanya rama(Purnashadjam),Brochevarevaru(sriranjani-although this was sung in a brisker pace than the Brindama style,the gamakams and the gradual transition from one swara to another is more due to the brindamma influence). Also the Sahana Padam(Ini enna Pechu) although the foundation is the brindamma style the rendering is brisker. Note that the brindamma style did not preclude the use of brikas in appropriate places but the swarasthanam in these brikas was carefully adhered to.
As VKV has pointed out musicians are also "learners" throughout their lives and adapt as they mature,and do not want to be "typecast" with labels. RK's career reflects that kind of evolution.Ultimately good music is appreciated and our CM Rasika crowd of today is much more eclectic,liberal and willing to "indulge" artists of merit who switch styles not only because of their internal motivations but also to "broaden" their listener base.--examples of Maharajapuram Santhanam,Aruna Sairam.
Alll said and done RK in his days earned the respect of the elders--Musiri,GNB and also the Dhanammal School followers who as Rasikas may be aware were always 'suspicious" of "Johnny-come-lately" adherents to their Bani.That they took RK under their wings shows the spirit of learning and camaraderie that existed between them.
As VKV has pointed out musicians are also "learners" throughout their lives and adapt as they mature,and do not want to be "typecast" with labels. RK's career reflects that kind of evolution.Ultimately good music is appreciated and our CM Rasika crowd of today is much more eclectic,liberal and willing to "indulge" artists of merit who switch styles not only because of their internal motivations but also to "broaden" their listener base.--examples of Maharajapuram Santhanam,Aruna Sairam.
Alll said and done RK in his days earned the respect of the elders--Musiri,GNB and also the Dhanammal School followers who as Rasikas may be aware were always 'suspicious" of "Johnny-come-lately" adherents to their Bani.That they took RK under their wings shows the spirit of learning and camaraderie that existed between them.
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Yes, Ramnad Krishnan did break his contract with Wesleyan, but he was there long enough to make some powerful impressions. Even to the uninitiated, his exquisite musicianship was apparent. And his impulsiveness, playfulness and spontaneity was contagious. He was a wonderful teacher. Wesleyan was a place where one could jump right into another culture as an undergraduate. Thank Bob Brown for the vision and the wherewithal to realize it. After taking some lessons the previous year with KVN (what an privilege!), I was fortunate enough to learn varnams and kritis from Krishnan that fall. He seemed to think my voice was well suited for Carnatic music and gave me so much encouragement that I finished my senior year of college abroad, following him back to Madras to live in the Suprabath boarding house on North Mada Street, just an easy walk to his house on Third Cross Street. At that time there were few Americans in Madras and when I was asked once if I was Jon Higgins, I responded, "No, but I can understand why you might think so -- all Americans look alike."
It is fun to hear the story of trip to the airport. Before Krishnan left Middletown he asked me if I wanted to buy his tamboura, selling price $75. Yes I did, and I still have it to this day, and treasure it. Where can I get strings in the Boston area, anyone? Lessons with Ramnad Krishnan were wonderful. While I could not imitate everything I heard I did sharpen my listening skills. But I could not learn to say all the s's in Sankskrit or to distinguish between (sans gamikas) Ni in Kalyani and Ni in Sankarabaranam. 22 srutis? 66 sruits? Maybe I got up to about 18. I spent seven months in Mylapore, going to as many concerts as I could and taking it all in, many at Luz Corner, many house concerts. The photo of Krishnan and Lalgudi on this page was, unless anyone claims otherwise, taken by me, or at least looks very much like a photo that I took of them. I recorded a concert of Krishnan and Lalgudi and Lalgudi was upset with an alapana passage in Bhairavi that he played which was now on my tape. He asked me to come to his house the next day to make the appropriate cut. That tape, complete with the 4 seconds of silence now resides with Wesleyan University, as do many other recordings that I made, including a tape of 10 javalis Krishnan learned from Brinda. I trust Wesleyan to do the right thing with these tapes I gave them but if anyone wants to make inquiries there, it might encourage them to make these available in an appropriate manner.
Back at Wesleyan a few years later I studied with other singers (both wonderful), but returned to the Suprabath (same room) and made by pilgrimage to Third Cross Street three days a week, staying another 6 or 7 months. Ramnad Raghavan, Krishnan's brother, made the adjustment to the U.S. easier. As did L. Shankar, Krishnan's nephew. Lots of other stories to tell, as you might imagine. Krishan's wife and two sons were very nice to me, also Raghavan's family. Ramanathan's (Krishnan's older son) favorite song? "Baby Elephant Walk." Go figure. Jim
It is fun to hear the story of trip to the airport. Before Krishnan left Middletown he asked me if I wanted to buy his tamboura, selling price $75. Yes I did, and I still have it to this day, and treasure it. Where can I get strings in the Boston area, anyone? Lessons with Ramnad Krishnan were wonderful. While I could not imitate everything I heard I did sharpen my listening skills. But I could not learn to say all the s's in Sankskrit or to distinguish between (sans gamikas) Ni in Kalyani and Ni in Sankarabaranam. 22 srutis? 66 sruits? Maybe I got up to about 18. I spent seven months in Mylapore, going to as many concerts as I could and taking it all in, many at Luz Corner, many house concerts. The photo of Krishnan and Lalgudi on this page was, unless anyone claims otherwise, taken by me, or at least looks very much like a photo that I took of them. I recorded a concert of Krishnan and Lalgudi and Lalgudi was upset with an alapana passage in Bhairavi that he played which was now on my tape. He asked me to come to his house the next day to make the appropriate cut. That tape, complete with the 4 seconds of silence now resides with Wesleyan University, as do many other recordings that I made, including a tape of 10 javalis Krishnan learned from Brinda. I trust Wesleyan to do the right thing with these tapes I gave them but if anyone wants to make inquiries there, it might encourage them to make these available in an appropriate manner.
Back at Wesleyan a few years later I studied with other singers (both wonderful), but returned to the Suprabath (same room) and made by pilgrimage to Third Cross Street three days a week, staying another 6 or 7 months. Ramnad Raghavan, Krishnan's brother, made the adjustment to the U.S. easier. As did L. Shankar, Krishnan's nephew. Lots of other stories to tell, as you might imagine. Krishan's wife and two sons were very nice to me, also Raghavan's family. Ramanathan's (Krishnan's older son) favorite song? "Baby Elephant Walk." Go figure. Jim
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Dear Jim,
I am EXCITED YOU are joining in these discussions. I was at the other END & tho' I know& knew PRACTICALLY every one like JON H, BOB B, etc & of course all the Indian artists the students I Knew like Vicky, Frank Bennett, Bob Leroy, the Jr. Brubeck , & others were MUSIC MAJORS. PL write your recollections as I used to pretty much bring almost all the indian musicians at Weslyan to my Manhattan apt after the CURRY CONCERTS & drop them back at Middletown! PL write your experiences which are very VALUABLE to the PROGRESSION of carnatic music in North America....VKV
I am EXCITED YOU are joining in these discussions. I was at the other END & tho' I know& knew PRACTICALLY every one like JON H, BOB B, etc & of course all the Indian artists the students I Knew like Vicky, Frank Bennett, Bob Leroy, the Jr. Brubeck , & others were MUSIC MAJORS. PL write your recollections as I used to pretty much bring almost all the indian musicians at Weslyan to my Manhattan apt after the CURRY CONCERTS & drop them back at Middletown! PL write your experiences which are very VALUABLE to the PROGRESSION of carnatic music in North America....VKV
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Yes. I have such a deep place in my heart for Indian music and the world it opened up for me. I had never heard any music from India until I heard MSS in 1965 or 1966 at Wesleyan. I fell in love with her Karaharapriva alapana and Bhavayami ragamalika. I was hooked. Absolutely hooked. Several years later, in 1969 or 1970 I was sitting in a coffee house in Lenox, Massachusetts where the Boston Symphony Orchestra musicians and the young musicians who come to study with them in the summer often frequented. So there was Leonard Bernstein, the famous conductor and composer, just two tables away, holding court with his young proteges, regaling them with stories about Mahler, no doubt. He saw that I was starring at him, but my other eye was on the mandolin hanging on the wall. I asked the proprietor if I could play it, and he said fine, and then I slowed tuned it up like to my sruti, 1/2, sa pa sa. Now Lenny was getting very interested. Fortunately at this coffee house, they had beverages stronger than mocha, which helped me get up my nerve. I approached the maestro and asked him if I could sing him some Indian music. He said, "Indian music, I INVENTED Indian music." What an ego! (He later would make public statements about being Mahler and Beethoven.) So I proceeded to sing the Sri Raga Samininekori, two speeds, faster tempo in the Charanam. When I got to s-----snppmrgrsrs----nsrgrsrmpn etc he started CONDUCTING ME. Well, off we went to the finish line, he with his grand gestures and me imitating all the head gestures of every vidwan I could remember. It was quite a show. At the very end of this encounter, he asked me, "What's a choir boy like you getting involved in Indian music?" He got it right about the choir boy.
You mention Vicky and Brubeck, Jr.. I assume you mean Darius. Enormous hands, just like his father. Scientology. Anyway, Vicky was an extremely talented musician who had a perfect ear for imitation and seemed to relish in performing. Shankar and Vicky. I have not seen her for all these many years. Bob Leroy. Bob, where are you? Frank and Gita! All these memories!
Wesleyan had a 40th celebration of the WorldMusic program a few years ago. I got my old group together, the Navarasa Carnatica Sangeeta Ensemble (David Reck came up with the name) and we did Telisirama, which I call the Wesleyan National Anthem, and something else, and then a piece that I had written in a Carnatic/Indonesian style in a made up raga in the forgotten language of the Carnatic music, Latin. Latin lends itself nicely to Kirtanas. So the saithya was "Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, misere nobis. (Repeat). Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem." The text was appropriate to the time, as Bush was just about to invade Iraq and pleas for peace needed to go to the highest powers available. David, on vina, and Barbara Benary, on violin, followed nicely and David Nelson, mrdangm, just took it in stride, I think. I was very pleased that Prof. Harold Stone, from Philadelphia, and a relative of my aunt, appreciated the raga and had some thoughts on its similarities to a Hindustani raga that I had not heard of and the pelog scale used in Indonesia.
So, I am completely off the vidwan theme of this page, and the webmaster should banish me, but vkv, who I don't think I know, got me started and should take full responsibility for this long-winded digression. Jim
You mention Vicky and Brubeck, Jr.. I assume you mean Darius. Enormous hands, just like his father. Scientology. Anyway, Vicky was an extremely talented musician who had a perfect ear for imitation and seemed to relish in performing. Shankar and Vicky. I have not seen her for all these many years. Bob Leroy. Bob, where are you? Frank and Gita! All these memories!
Wesleyan had a 40th celebration of the WorldMusic program a few years ago. I got my old group together, the Navarasa Carnatica Sangeeta Ensemble (David Reck came up with the name) and we did Telisirama, which I call the Wesleyan National Anthem, and something else, and then a piece that I had written in a Carnatic/Indonesian style in a made up raga in the forgotten language of the Carnatic music, Latin. Latin lends itself nicely to Kirtanas. So the saithya was "Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, misere nobis. (Repeat). Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem." The text was appropriate to the time, as Bush was just about to invade Iraq and pleas for peace needed to go to the highest powers available. David, on vina, and Barbara Benary, on violin, followed nicely and David Nelson, mrdangm, just took it in stride, I think. I was very pleased that Prof. Harold Stone, from Philadelphia, and a relative of my aunt, appreciated the raga and had some thoughts on its similarities to a Hindustani raga that I had not heard of and the pelog scale used in Indonesia.
So, I am completely off the vidwan theme of this page, and the webmaster should banish me, but vkv, who I don't think I know, got me started and should take full responsibility for this long-winded digression. Jim
Last edited by Jim on 14 Nov 2009, 07:55, edited 1 time in total.
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..........NEITHER HAD I till she suddenly showed in a function to honour Bill Skelton couple of years back in Rye, N.Y.SHE is as ravishing as ever& her Thalam was so perfect Nadaswarm S.Kasim asked her to come tho middle of first rowto put THALAM which she did perfectly! I thought she was a perfect musician too but is working for Weschester county!L.Shankar has not been seen or heard for ages. Like the legendary KILROY was here etchings People say he was around!....mystery! used to work for post office....Jim wrote:Yes. I have such a deep place in my heart for Indian music and the world it opened up for me......GREAT!...
You mention Vicky and Brubeck, Jr.. I assume you mean Darius. Enormous hands, just like his father. Scientology. Anyway, Vicky was an extremely talented musician who had a perfect ear for imitation and seemed to relish in performing. Shankar and Vicky. I have not seen her for all these many years
...they are in L.A. I am arranging a function in MADRAS DEC 8 in memory of her father Prof.S.Ramanathan when we are presnting her with a plaque for her contributions etc. I will also be meeting Ramnad Raghavan & Trichy Sankaran . Whts u r last name?Bob Leroy. Bob, where are you? Frank and Gita!
......great! Did u know BOB BROWN went to Indonesia every year & played music to survive there?Wesleyan had a 40th celebration of the WorldMusic program a few years ago. I got my old group together, the Navarasa Carnatica Sangeeta Ensemble (David Reck came up with the name) and we did Telisirama, which I call the Wesleyan National Anthem, and something else, and then a piece that I had written in a Carnatic/Indonesian style in a made up raga in the forgotten language of the Carnatic music, Latin. Latin lends itself nicely to Kirtanas. So the saithya was "Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, misere nobis. (Repeat). Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem." The text was appropriate to the time, as Bush was just about to invade Iraq and pleas for peace needed to go to the highest powers available. David, on vina, and Barbara Benary, on violin, followed nicely and David Nelson, mrdangm, just took it in stride, I think. I was very pleased that Prof. Harold Stone, from Philadelphia, and a relative of my aunt, appreciated the raga and had some thoughts on its similarities to a Hindustani raga that I had not heard of and the pelog scale used in Indonesia
...I live in N.M. Where do u live?
Last edited by cacm on 14 Nov 2009, 11:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Jim,
I do not know if you knew Leonard Bernstein was a resident Scholar at Weslyan for a month in the sixties & actually showed up in carnatic music classes & curry concerts! He was very polite there too!....I had season tickets for NY Philharmonic & used to attend their rehersals to educate myself. He was a great teacher when it counted! VKV
I do not know if you knew Leonard Bernstein was a resident Scholar at Weslyan for a month in the sixties & actually showed up in carnatic music classes & curry concerts! He was very polite there too!....I had season tickets for NY Philharmonic & used to attend their rehersals to educate myself. He was a great teacher when it counted! VKV
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Did not know about Bernstein's connection with Wesleyan. He must have worn a disguise at those Curry Concerts. If you get a chance to hear a recording of his "Norton Lectures" that he did at Harvard, he uses the linguistic models of grammar developed by such notables as Noam Chomsky of M.I.T., and applies them to music, thus speaking about the "verbs, adverbs, objects, gerunds, etc." of music. Beautiful imagery. He illustrates his talks with musical examples played at the piano. Fascinating lectures. One person who I do remember as being a regular at Wesleyan in those days was the composer John Cage, whose music begs the eternal question "what is music?"
VKV, you must be a legend. Although most of the my colleagues willingly ventured into the vortex, I think I gravitated more toward the circumference of the circles which you travelled in. And probably missed out on some remarkable experiences. I now live 20 miles north of Boston, where there is a vibrant cultural community of Indian music, with MIT's "MITHAS" playing a major leadership role in that regard. Was fortunate enough to hear Lalgudi give a concert here about 5 years ago with his son and daughter -- SRO 650 people -- as a fundraiser for the Chinmaya Mission in Andover, Mass.
I will search to see if I have any photos of Ramnad Krishan and other vidwans for posting. Also, responding to an inquiry about recordings of lessons with RK... Wesleyan has all my tapes, which include lots of lessons, concerts and javalis. If anyone knows Jody V. in the World Music Archives, you could ask her about their availability. Jim
VKV, you must be a legend. Although most of the my colleagues willingly ventured into the vortex, I think I gravitated more toward the circumference of the circles which you travelled in. And probably missed out on some remarkable experiences. I now live 20 miles north of Boston, where there is a vibrant cultural community of Indian music, with MIT's "MITHAS" playing a major leadership role in that regard. Was fortunate enough to hear Lalgudi give a concert here about 5 years ago with his son and daughter -- SRO 650 people -- as a fundraiser for the Chinmaya Mission in Andover, Mass.
I will search to see if I have any photos of Ramnad Krishan and other vidwans for posting. Also, responding to an inquiry about recordings of lessons with RK... Wesleyan has all my tapes, which include lots of lessons, concerts and javalis. If anyone knows Jody V. in the World Music Archives, you could ask her about their availability. Jim
Last edited by Jim on 15 Nov 2009, 23:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Jim: Welcome to the forum, and thanks for your reminiscences - they are priceless, and never be distracting.
MODS: I wonder if we should have a separate CM in Wesleyan thread, where Jim, VKV, RMK and others can write about their experiences.
I heard something very similar from Prof. Bill Jackson (Prof in the department of Religious Studies at IUPUI, Indianapolis: http://liberalarts.iupui.edu/religious_ ... p/faculty) - seems to have been the hook that drew many into the world of CM. When Bill spoke to us about his book on Sri Tyagaraja, he talked to us about going to India, visiting with the Sadasivam's and others, and how helpful they were in getting him an entry into the circles that mattered for his research (including an examination of the palm leaves in the Saraswathi Mahal Library).Jim wrote:Yes. I have such a deep place in my heart for Indian music and the world it opened up for me. I had never heard any music from India until I heard MSS in 1965 or 1966 at Wesleyan. I fell in love with her Karaharapriva alapana and Bhavayami ragamalika.
MODS: I wonder if we should have a separate CM in Wesleyan thread, where Jim, VKV, RMK and others can write about their experiences.
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JIM,
I crave the indulgence of the moderator as well as members of this forum for taking this Discussion really astray...You have brought up so many cherished moments from the past. I was going to say how a couple of Singapore Slings or Screw drivers may be empowered even Lennie to say he invented Carnatic music! I have listened to his Norton Lectures which were brilliant like Feynman's lectures at Caltech on physics. Incidentally I am very familiar with Chomsky as my own area of research is similar & somewhat overlaps mathematically with his; Actually my brother Dr.V.K.Balasubramanian( famous Astro physicist-NASA) & brother in law Dr.S.Naranan have done break thru' suff on languages extending Chomsky's work as well as Mandel brat- father of fractals-; You might be interested to know Chomsky comes to Chennai EVERY year & addresses standing room crowds at Music Academy talking about US Foreign policy!....John Cage was a Sage! He was so profound; Lucky to have met & learnt from him!...
Also David Reck played a Veena concert for my son's first birthday at my home in new city-1972- & Bill Cole a jazz enthusiast& dean at Amherst- also a Weslyan Alumnus- was so fond of Shieikh Chinna moulana & T.VS.!He actually billed aT.V.Sankaranarayanan in the famous Bill Coltrane series at Dartmouth & had him teach a master class there....I have listened to your group long time back....Straying off too much but have to say IT was the genius Bob Brown & the ability of Jon Higgins that made Carnatic music in N.A. take roots here. I cherish the memory of sitting next to Jon Higgins in Music Academy listening to M.DR.!..........Do you know where his son is? Also whats u r last name? VKV
I crave the indulgence of the moderator as well as members of this forum for taking this Discussion really astray...You have brought up so many cherished moments from the past. I was going to say how a couple of Singapore Slings or Screw drivers may be empowered even Lennie to say he invented Carnatic music! I have listened to his Norton Lectures which were brilliant like Feynman's lectures at Caltech on physics. Incidentally I am very familiar with Chomsky as my own area of research is similar & somewhat overlaps mathematically with his; Actually my brother Dr.V.K.Balasubramanian( famous Astro physicist-NASA) & brother in law Dr.S.Naranan have done break thru' suff on languages extending Chomsky's work as well as Mandel brat- father of fractals-; You might be interested to know Chomsky comes to Chennai EVERY year & addresses standing room crowds at Music Academy talking about US Foreign policy!....John Cage was a Sage! He was so profound; Lucky to have met & learnt from him!...
Also David Reck played a Veena concert for my son's first birthday at my home in new city-1972- & Bill Cole a jazz enthusiast& dean at Amherst- also a Weslyan Alumnus- was so fond of Shieikh Chinna moulana & T.VS.!He actually billed aT.V.Sankaranarayanan in the famous Bill Coltrane series at Dartmouth & had him teach a master class there....I have listened to your group long time back....Straying off too much but have to say IT was the genius Bob Brown & the ability of Jon Higgins that made Carnatic music in N.A. take roots here. I cherish the memory of sitting next to Jon Higgins in Music Academy listening to M.DR.!..........Do you know where his son is? Also whats u r last name? VKV
Last edited by cacm on 16 Nov 2009, 02:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Digression - What is the name of the raga, melakarta scale #29 (Sankarabaranam derivative), arohana: s r m d n g p S avarohana: Sndpmgpmgrs (or S p m r s) or something like that? There is a kriti (whose name I don't know either) that has a passage s-rmg-rsr-mmd-dng-gpS-Sndpmgpmgr etc. I think it is a popular piece that all of you know. Sounds great on the vina. I am very fuzzy on the story here, but what I want to say is that Tyagaraja (?) heard some western music and came up with this raga, and the accompanying kriti, with western music as an inspiration. Someone please come to my rescue and set me straight! Jim
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Raga: kadanakudookalam
Those swara passages are from the krithi RaghuVamsaSudha by Patnam Subramanya Iyer who is also given the credit for the raga.
I have not heard the story of western music inspiration for this raga or this krithi. Muthuswamy Dikshithar's nottu swara sahitya songs are indeed based on western melodies and the story is that he heard the British orchestra playing those melodies and he slapped the sanskrit lyrics for them. They are nice to listen to and easy to learn for beginners as well.
Those swara passages are from the krithi RaghuVamsaSudha by Patnam Subramanya Iyer who is also given the credit for the raga.
I have not heard the story of western music inspiration for this raga or this krithi. Muthuswamy Dikshithar's nottu swara sahitya songs are indeed based on western melodies and the story is that he heard the British orchestra playing those melodies and he slapped the sanskrit lyrics for them. They are nice to listen to and easy to learn for beginners as well.