TMKrishna Concert at PapanasamSivanRasikarSangam on 260909

Review the latest concerts you have listened to.
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sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Post by sureshvv »

Purist wrote:TMK has now made varnam singing at the middle as his style, innovation or whatever. Fine
one can accept as his forte. Unfortunately he doesnt seem to stop here. But by singing javali's in the begining, heavy kritis (like Chekkani Raja EnthaNinne etc) as openers he is only defacing the concert format.
<snip>
But mindless tampering of
time tested and widely accepted concert format in the name of innovation is only high
headedness.
Oh please... it is just an order of presenting songs. Don't make everything into a ritual!

dhanyasi
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Joined: 07 Aug 2006, 20:53

Post by dhanyasi »

Wow we go through this every time TMK sings a varnam out of place... with due respect to Ariyakudi, carnatic music pre-dates Ariyakudi by centuries... and there were concerts before Ariyakudi's period that did not follow that so-called varnam-sub-main-main-RTP concept. for instance the Bhairavi varnam viriboni pre dates the trinity ...to my knowledge none of the treatise say that the concert should be sung in a particular format...

Ariyakudi's template was JUST A FORMAT...a good one to some... if you like it, good for you... it does not mean that every concert should be sung that way... Come on.... One man cannot and dictate that all of the last 400 centuries of music and how it should be presented in A format and HE DID NOT INTEND TO... he just presented A good format.. but not the only one and i hope not.... else 90% of the rich varnams/padavarnams and other compositions will perish as they have already done.... if you dont like a varnam in the middle... too bad...try a diffrent day or artist... dont complain or ask the artist to change their ways... carnatic music is much more diverse..

Always_Evolving
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Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 08:33

Post by Always_Evolving »

Dhanyasi wrote:One man cannot and dictate that all of the last 400 centuries of music and how it should be presented in A format and HE DID NOT INTEND TO... he just presented A good format.. but not the only one and i hope not....
The question is -- whether Varnam as main or submain piece constitutes ANOTHER good format in the mind of the listener? There must be a reason they were chosen as openers. Varnams have minimal words, lots of akaarams, slow and fast speeds (nice as a warm-up), a few pre-composed swarams -- all point to less scope / need for improvisational aspects. On occasion I have heard varnam as opener followed by a few kalpana swarams but there is little scope for elaboration by neraval -- the sahityam is generally minimal and not very deep or evocative in meaning. Alapanas are (almost) redundant as the varnam itself begins with slow, akaaram-filled phrases.
dhanyasi wrote:if you dont like a varnam in the middle... too bad...try a diffrent day or artist... dont complain or ask the artist to change their ways... carnatic music is much more diverse.
But why not? A contemporary singer sings for a contemporary audience. If what he is serving is not relished by many of his listeners then they might as well give him that feedback right?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Indeed this has to be the most chewed, tasteless gum around ;-) -

My 2 cents: From what I can remember (from a transcript of his speech at the academy), it seems like ARI's goal was to come up with an "all inclusive format" as a way of keeping wide array of audience engaged as well as make way for multiple forms of compositions to remain alive. Thus it had room for various formats varnam, krithi, thillana, javali, tiruppavai types etc. with the main krithi perhaps pre-determined as the central one. Now of course, within the format, he had to come up with a placement of the various forms and and justification. He chose varnam as a start and offered a plausible and valid justification as "to warm up the voice" - it is just ONE justification. Varnams as grand pieces obviously pre-dated ARI - but perhaps over time had lost their importance to krithi which really took off due to the trinity. So ARI's format provided an avenue for making varnam a part of the concert but in a subdued role (understandable if we take that krithis with their bhakthi content as well as richness by this time had to play a central role). Of course is better than the varnams going into oblivion, but it does not mean the "this must be the only way in every concert from now on". That the cm world would religiously hold on to his justifications and develop a tendency to make his format a inviolate to me sounds wacky at best. That we would want to simply follow a cookie cutter approach to art form is also as wacky. And I really doubt if that is what he had in mind. I think he had more progressive ideas than that.

Arun

Rasika911
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Joined: 09 Mar 2009, 06:11

Post by Rasika911 »

Just because TM Krishna is doing it doesnt mean that everybody else has to do it as well. It can be an individual thing.
To the person who said varnams dont offer scope for nereval, you should have listened to TM Krishnas neravel at the academy for viriboni...one of the most grand neravals i have ever heard.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

A varNam placed at the start is something I like. Yet, one coming in the middle of a concert won't bother me, I think. The questions are:
why is ariyakkuDi's format still around? Is it because it suddenly made better sense than all that existed before? Is it because it is an express edition which includes many interesting elements of a performance in a short time? Is it just because musicians have settled comfortably into this way of presentation--tailor-made as it were for them? Easier work perhaps than singing the same rAgam for hours? Or is it because concerts moved to the city where it is not an event born out of the desire of a single patron but a diverse urban crowd?
Whatever it is, I would like to quote from The New Yorker's opera critic Alex Ross's review on "Tosca" at the Metropolitan Opera recently: by all means, then, let's have a new "Tosca". But it needs to be good. And this is not.
How do we know if the ariyakkuDi format is good or not? It has stood the test of time, it has audience approval. It is fine, and should the musicians stick with it forever or can ruminate re-arranging it? If so, is it done with responsibility and innovation or just by playing around with the order? Does the new order convey a new meaning which adds to the already existing values?
Both the performer and the audience can be sportive about it until the realization comes about the merits and demerits in new ventures, both to the innovator and the listener. Something new does not have to be rejected just because it is new. Anything which is old now, was new at one time...
For those who ask whose side I am on, here's the answer: no, I'm not taking sides. Let things grow, I would say, but responsibly, not making any attempts which would destroy what we already have.
Going back to the opera, it got its share of boos, even from those who watched it free on the big screen outside. I am sure there will be another opera, all new, but with a clamor for encores from the audience...

Always_Evolving
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Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 08:33

Post by Always_Evolving »

@arunk and arasi: Wise words and points I concede :-)
@rasika911: well yes, i'll reserve judgement as i did not hear that particular neraval.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

True to your name!
If all rasikAs do the same, artistes can evolve too, alongside :)

srkris
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Post by srkris »

I don't think it was Ariyakudi's idea to put the varnam first, for we don't have any records to show that other singers of his generation were placing the varnam in the middle of their concerts (or anywhere else other than the beginning).

Perhaps there was a near-consensus in his time about the order of songs that must be presented in a concert, and he merely consolidated and voiced that point of view.

It is hard to imagine that once Ariyakudi voiced his views on the concert format, everyone else who had been singing CM differently dropped their traditions to embrace Ariyakudi's paddhati.

People may get credited for things they are not responsible for, and get reviled for things that are no fault of theirs, and this is how myth-making happens.

It is surprising that no one thought it fit to ask Ariyakudi himself about his supposed invention.

Purist
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Post by Purist »

The purport of my post (# 20) was not confined to varnam singing at middle. My concern
was about the next levels of tampering.

suresh vv (#26): Sorry suresh, to follow a methodical approach is not 'a ritual'.
Imagine the situation where there is no order .. X begins with Thillana,..follow krithi..Varnam..tukkada..
RTP, mangalam. Y begins RTP.. Javali..Krithi..Varnam ..mangalam. Z wants to be smart, starts
with a Nereval of a krithi and concludes with an alapana...so on. This is not over exaggeration, but could be in the realms of possibility down the line.What will the concert goer digest?

As Arasi points out.. lets not destroy what we already have in the name of innovation or being blindly different.

srkris
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Post by srkris »

Purist,

That Ariyakudi introduced the concert format may be a tall claim for reasons I have mentioned in my last post. He may have been merely credited with it, not being wholly responsible for the innovation.

It will be an equally tall claim to say that TMK is destroying the tradition. One musician (even as great as Ariyakudi, leave alone TMK) cannot make or break a tradition. Individuals may do several things to gain more attention, not all of them serious or genuine. We must not forget we are dealing with public personalities for whom a few more eyeballs (or eardrums in this case) cannot hurt. Others may gain audience from other genres (through playback singing etc) to add to their audience... I presume this is just one such tactic.

Musicians (once they think they are successful, regardless of reality) may bring forth their eccentricities to the fore, and call them innovations. This has been done by others before. I don't know if they will still continue with their eccentricities if they lose a major chunk of their audience. That is when you can gauge the genuineness or artificiality of their so called innovations.
Last edited by srkris on 03 Oct 2009, 14:32, edited 1 time in total.

rajeshnat
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Post by rajeshnat »

srkris wrote:Purist,

That Ariyakudi introduced the concert format may be a tall claim for reasons I have mentioned in my last post. He may have been merely credited with it, not being wholly responsible for the innovation.
...
Few years in some lecdem or a newspaper I read the kutcheri format was actually introduced by Poochi SrinivAsa Iyengar and taken forward by Ariyakudi.

srkris
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Post by srkris »

That's interesting.

One thing I forgot to add is we should not micro-analyse each artist's experiments. All said and done, although CM is a shAstra (science), it is also a kala (art). Every artist has the artistic license to experiment with the art. I wonder how many people will stop listening to TMK just because his ordering of the songs is different.

He is a scholar and he knows what is best. Even if he is wrong in his ideas, he has the wherewithal to say "if you want, you can listen to me, else go away". That's where it all boils down to.

So if his ideas/innovations are good, others may follow him, else they will die down their natural death. There is no need to fret and frown about it.

Agnosist
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Post by Agnosist »

Why a big hue and cry? What is Sampradhayam? If at all the word "Sampradhayam"

PUNARVASU
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Post by PUNARVASU »

Finally it is the nature's law of 'survival of the fittest'. If anything is good it will survive against all odds; time alone can decide. Till the let us all enjoy what we want to from what is available.
It is like a 'BUFFET'; you pick your choice.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Punarvasu - perfect - the same thing I feel - if an innovation is good, others will adopt it (isn't imitation is the best form of flattery?), and it will survive the test of time. There is always a right time for these innovations - the time has to be 'ripe'. I am sure that ARI's 'innovation' may have fallen flat some 15-20 years prior, and if he had waited another 15-20 years, someone else would have tried something similar.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Exactly, Ravi!
So, pUcci, it could have been (the same school), but it stuck more in the times of his chEla (a time for everything, as they say)!
Progression or regression in the arts aren't dependent on individuals but the sumtotal of all that has happened in that period and the way in which they have gained staying power.
srikris says we shouldn't micro-analyse each artiste's experiments, and he is spot on. Either appreciate it, or move on, if it isn't to your liking.
What some people forget is that the giants of yesterday did have their triumphs and failures while attempting something different and rasikAs reacted to them negatively too, at times! We see them from afar, only perceiving what they had achieved--which we see in the music they left behind and in the next generation of performers who make them their own who also make their own attempts in taking it all a step ahead. The experiments bear fruit, or fail.
In science, we don't interfere with experiments in the labs until they are brought out into the world as results of these efforts. We are either astounded by their results or are disappointed...
Last edited by arasi on 03 Oct 2009, 20:32, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Post by sureshvv »

Purist wrote: Imagine the situation where there is no order .. X begins with Thillana,..follow krithi..Varnam..tukkada..
RTP, mangalam. Y begins RTP.. Javali..Krithi..Varnam ..mangalam. Z wants to be smart, starts
with a Nereval of a krithi and concludes with an alapana...so on. This is not over exaggeration, but could be in the realms of possibility down the line.
OK. Imagining....
Purist wrote: What will the concert goer digest?.
That depends on what they ate for dinner. :-)

But seriously, seems to me that you are afraid of the "slippery slope" effect which may not be justified in this case,
Even in your worst case scenario, if each item is presented in an exemplary manner, many would be happy to sit thru' the concert.
The bottom line is how each item is presented - the order is just to provide the comfort of familiarity.
Last edited by sureshvv on 04 Oct 2009, 11:20, edited 1 time in total.

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

I wonder to what extent the format might change... for instance, why DO we sing alapanai before krithi, swaras after neraval, etc? I have no problems with varnams and javalis in the middle of the concert, but if someone were to sing a krithi, a ragam, swaras, and then a neraval, I'm not sure how/if I might take it.

saiganesh
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 13:28

Post by saiganesh »

in very olddays it was not compulsory to sing a kriti (or any prabandham for that matter) in the same raaga which is elaborated earlier! system,format keeps evolving i think.

srinivasrgvn
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Post by srinivasrgvn »

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Last edited by srinivasrgvn on 27 Dec 2009, 08:00, edited 1 time in total.

rajaglan
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Post by rajaglan »

For me none of this matter. What I look forward to in a concert is
1. long (main) alapana
2. new songs (new to me so that my database grows) and neraval which I like.
3. RTP alapana and thanam and pallavi. not swarams and ragamailka swarams.
Nowadays I am bored of swarams unless someone plans it very well , examples like MMI like a
spider webbing or TMK like a multiple stage rockets firing.

So it really doesnot matter for me what is sung first or last or mid. But ARI format helps
in a big way to time to enter the concert hall. For example in a Sanjay's concert , I never want to
miss song numbers 2,3 and submain definitely because they are definitely new to
me always. And for TMK, I never miss the first two songs as the neraval and swarams
climaxing is wonderful. And offcourse sit through both completely. But for U srinivas , I am fine
if I sit through the main song and RTP only.

I am definitely disappointed when TMK sings a main varnam that is more because of my
expectation of a main song not because of his delivery lacks innovation/effort. When I was hearing
the viriboni varnam of TMK at Unnati , I wondered whether anything more can be done by anyone.
It was so elaborate.

Actually if you look at TMks evolution, he learnt lots of varnams by the age of 12. And he feels
varnams are not given its due. So all these efforts. Wonder when swarajathis were sung on
olden days as main, people must have objected to it.
Last edited by rajaglan on 04 Oct 2009, 17:31, edited 1 time in total.

vmr
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009, 16:08

Post by vmr »

Innovations are good to music, but they should remain within the framework of an established pattern or a set pattern. Some innovations do face critisism..like,when Semmangudi Mama rendered nereval and kalpana swarams for Bhairavi Swarajathi , there were many eye brows raised. In fact he has in one of his interviews said that there is lot of scope of elaboration of the Raaga, therefore it is not wrong or un-wise to elaborate. It is also believed that Semmangudi Mama's guru Viswanatha iyer did sing Kalpana swarams at the end of a Pancha Ratna Krithi.

All said and done......if the imagination of the artist gels well with the rasikas...it is all the more fine......

vmr
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009, 16:08

Post by vmr »

Innovations are good to music, but they should remain within the framework of an established pattern or a set pattern. Some innovations do face critisism..like,when Semmangudi Mama rendered nereval and kalpana swarams for Bhairavi Swarajathi , there were many eye brows raised. In fact he has in one of his interviews said that there is lot of scope of elaboration of the Raaga, therefore it is not wrong or un-wise to elaborate. It is also believed that Semmangudi Mama's guru Viswanatha iyer did sing Kalpana swarams at the end of a Pancha Ratna Krithi.

All said and done......if the imagination of the artist gels well with the rasikas...it is all the more fine......

KSJaishankar
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:01

Post by KSJaishankar »

Someone mentioned that "unchecked innovation" could lead to a situation where someone sings alapana after the kriti. I know it sounds preposterous ... but consider this. Multiple sources have talked about the great masters like SSI, GNB et al, who would continue singing the main raga of the day after a concert got over, well into the night, because their imagination in that raga was unleashed!

Would it be preposterous, if an artiste were to take up say Gajavadana in Todi, and get inspired by the chitta swarams to go on to expound Todi elaborately AFTER the kriti got over? Would the rasikas say "WOW! What a Todi!" or "Who does s/he think s/he is, to go against the sampradayam of singing Alapana before the kriti?"

There were comments in this very thread about TMK breaking a tradition by singing the Kambhoji Ata tala varnam as a main piece in place of the designated kriti of the day (at the Navaratri Mandapam). Turns out the "commentator" had not even heard the concert and decided jump in without knowing that TMK had sung this as the sub-main item.

Anyway.. that is beside the point I was going to make. Sampradaya has a relevance within a context. If sampradaya was sacrosanct in absolute terms at the Navaratri Mandapam concerts, why was the "rule" of no women artistes discontinued? My tuppence - it had become irrelevant (dare I say "politically incorrect" :)) in today's context.

Sampradaya IS subject to change.

Ragjay
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Post by Ragjay »

Any innovation by musicians will survive only if the audience accepts it and it will have a natural death if rasikas do not welcome it. So musicians will continue with their innovations, be it singing varnam elaborately as a main item or a heavy krithi is sung as an opening item,as long it goes down well with the rasikas,I think it is pointless debating this issue.Rasikas who like artist to follow the established pattern of concert format can either stay away from such innovations or grin and bear it. Ragjay

chandar
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Joined: 01 Jun 2009, 15:30

Post by chandar »

Its really interesting to find so many views over TMKs' concert and his new innovations.
I can just say that whatever he sings he tries to get himself fully involved with it and delights the audience with his rendition.
Edugatta pallavi is another name for charanam and the swaras to follow are edugatta swaras.
I am sure in future people will really look forward to hear TMK

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