T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

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CRama
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T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by CRama »

The above programme was organised in Ragasudha Hall by Mridanga Vidwan K.Arun Praksh on the eighth Remembrance day of his illustrious father cum Music composer L.Krishnan. TMK was assisted by a team of his students- G.Ravikiran, Vighnesh Easwar, Madhav Iyengar, Vidya and Emmanuel. There were no pakkavadyam.

At the start, TMK shared his memoirs about the noble soul- L.Krishnan. TMK paid huge enconiums to Subbarama Deekshitar who has taken considerable pains to document the compositions and related volley of information for the benefit of posterity. Pradarshini is such a great treatise that it reveals something new each time you look at it. He was the first person to provide signs to gamakams. In this lec dem, TMK tried to discuss the changes in the treatment of certain ragams that has happened over the years from what was notated by Subbarama Deekshitar.

Kambodi
TMK, supported by G.Ravikiran sang the kriti Sree Valmikalingam and pointed out certain specific sancharams which have now gone into oblivion while singing Kambodi. You will not find the phrase sarigama in the SSP. Instead you will see sarimagama which now we call as Yadukulakambodi. He said that at least while singing ragam for Deekshitar Kritis, we should show such prayogams which will present a different flavour to the ragam. He also showed the use of these sancharams in the Kambodi Adi tala varnam- Tarunee.

HIndolam and Vasantha.
TMK sang a slokam composed by Muddu Venkatamakhin in Hindolam and Vasantha. In the Vasantha, as per SSP, there is use of sudha daivatam minimally and we can see a sayal of panchamam in the sahithyam, but not explicitly sung while singing swarams. He then sang Ramachandram Bhavayami as per SSP which has got a chittaswaram also. As per SSP, the pallavi has got 5 avartanams of Rupaka talam and probably to make into 4 avartanams, it has been speeded up. TMK said nothing wrong to have it as 5 avartanams.

In Hindolam, in the SSP, there is no madani pprayogam- only manidani. Neither sagama. He sang Neerajakshi Kamakshi and told that the Musiri version of this song almost follows the SSP. He also sang Chittaswaram for the song.

Anandabhairavi.
SSP used Sudhadaivatam only and no Chatusruti daivatam. So he mentioned that while singing Deekshitar Kritis in Anandabhairavi, only Sudha daivatam should be used. He sang Thyagarajayogavaibhavam using sudha daivatam, which had a different colour (Thodish).at the places where sudha daivatam was used.

Bhairavi
In the SSP version, Sudha daivatam only is used to the maximum. The kriti Balagopala was sung.

Begada
In the SSP, Kakali nishadam is used maximum and minimum of Kaisiki nishadam where now we use more of Kaisiki nishadam. The song Sree Mata Sivavamange was rendered.

Vegavahini
In the Deekshitar sampradaya, Vegavahini ragam has a unique identity. It is not simply Chakravakam with samagama. It also do not use padanisa. TMK presented a beautiful alapana of this ragam followed by Veena Pustakadharini. He also said that Brindamma’s version of Veena Pustakadharini follows the SSP.

Athana
Subbarama Deekshitar considers Athana as a janya of 28th melakarta Harikambodi because of the prominent presence of daivatam. The song Brihaspathe was rendered by his disciples Vidya and Emmanuel. TMK said that apart from Antara gandharam and Sadharana gandharam, there is also a Rendungettan gandharam- falling somewhere in between the two gandharams- used in this song. It also has got both the nishadams- Kakali and Kaisiki. I left after this.

It was a very enlightening demonstration exceeding more than two hours. The hall was full. There were many musicians like Suguna Varadachary, Dr.R.S.Jayalakshmi, R.K.Sreeramkumar, Aishwarya Sankar etc. My company with Sivaramakrishnan and Dr.Aravindan (who made a similar lec dem a few days back) enhanced the listening pleasure. I wish the lec dem is made available in you tube for the benefit of larger number of musicians.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Rama kali and Margadarshi were also mentioned and krithis in them were rendered too, but not in full.
Before starting the lec dem proper, a mention was also made about the various gamakam used in Pradarshini.

shriram.krishnan72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by shriram.krishnan72 »

Amazing lecture with so much content. A musician who has a busy concert career and who is involved with so many other activities still keeps working on his music and research which is an amazing quality for youngsters to imbibe. His explanations were deep and thoughtful and was communicated effectively to even the technically challenged in the hall due to which the entire audience who filled the hall sat through for the entire session. Though many of the Atana, Anandabhairavi and Begada sections sounded unlike what we are used to in todays understanding it was interesting to note that his students also were cautious while singing them. In fact in Begada for an unusual phrase with Kakali N as pointed out by @CRama he asked his students Rithvik Raja and Vignesh Ishwar to sing it more strongly and show it. It takes some getting used to I guess. My personal highlight was when TMK sang using phrases from the demonstrated compositions in raga alapanas of Kamboji, Vegavahini and Begada capturing the essence so beautifully. The hall was in complete rapture during these sections.

A couple of other observations. Madhav Iyengar did not sing and only assisted on the Thambura while two other students who sang have been missed out from the list - Rithvik Raja who is a musician in his own right and Vignesh Krishnamurthy (as announced but not sure) who is often seen behind TMK in his concerts. Heard Madhav last december season and he has a promising future but I have not heard Vignesh Krishnamurthy performingt. It was also lovely to hear his foreign student Emmanuel sing complex phrases of Atana along with Vidya Raghavan with great precision and be able to sing while playing the Thambura which shows her hard work. Kudos to the student and the teacher. Other senior musicians like S Sowmya, Sangeeta Shivakumar, Sumitra Vasudev etc. were also in attendance among many young musicians and students.

On a side note the lecture of Dr. Aravindan whom you are talking about. Is there a recording of that? I only read the review here in the forum. Was he also by chance the gentleman who asked a couple of questions at the end during the interaction?

CRama
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by CRama »

Yes Ritwik Raja was very much there. His name slipped while typing. Sorry for that. I left after Athana. So I don't know who asked questions at the end. In yt, Dr. Aravindan has uploaded many songs sung as per SSP.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by bhakthim dehi »

He too asked questions.

SrinathK
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by SrinathK »

I have a doubt regarding the andhali kriti "Brihannayaki" - Brinda and Mukta have sung it with G2 while the raga seems to have changed later to G3. Did that change happen before the SSP was written?

bhakthim dehi
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Sri Subbarama Deekshithar has placed andali only under mela 28. Also, Thyagarajar krithi abhimanamuledemi is sung only with Antara gandaram. Another example of a ragam with a changed lakshanam.

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Record audience I've seen for any lecdem. That too on a working day. I would have liked it to happen on a Sunday morning with ample time for a QA session at the end.

The prog - scheduled at 6.15 pm - started only by 6.30 and went on for around 2 hours. Because it was a different offering from TMK, I reached the venue quite early (but I had to leave by 8 pm -due to some unavoidable personal reasons- when Ataana was taken up).

I have the following observations / queries :

1. As pointed out by TMK himself, the SSP Kambodhi has a few 'pidis' akin to Yadukulakambodhi and he pointed it too. That be the case, I liked to know how the SSP version of Y kambodhi would sound. (But I didn't want to interrupt the lec).

2. Hindolam (Neerajaakshi kaamaakshi which was rendered in full) didn't sound much 'old'. The SSP chittaswaram seemed to be perfectly in tact uptil now

3. TMK made a passing remark (as I could make it out) that raga is independent of the Kriti. (In other words one need not draw from the kriti for alapana).

Don't we have quite a few cases where the image of the kriti is inevitable to build up the raga? (Though it will be clearly out of place in the SSP context, I can't help mentioning Bindumalini - or any such unique scale)!

4. A few instances of 'the debate is continuing for years' were mentioned.
I have a point to make here: Is it such a herculean task to resolve issues in today's world of impartial and objective thinking and analysis, to arrive at certain consensus?

5.TMK suggested to adopt/retain some unique, beautiful SSP prayogas in today's concerts too (or else they may be forgotten).

I suggest It would be worthwhile to formally list out such 'usages' (if need be after a vetting by experts) for assimilation in concert circuits.

CRama
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by CRama »

Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 03 Sep 2017, 07:41
2. Hindolam (Neerajaakshi kaamaakshi which was rendered in full) didn't sound much 'old'. The SSP chittaswaram seemed to be perfectly in tact uptil now

3. TMK made a passing remark (as I could make it out) that raga is independent of the Kriti. (In other words one need not draw from the kriti for alapana).
Reg, Neerajakshi Kamakshi, TMK told that the Musiri version is mostly akin to SSP. Same version is being sung by musicians. But the song itself is rarely heard in the concert platforms today.
Reg raga relationship to kritis, TMK said that when singing alapana for Deekshitar kritis like Valmikalingam or Thyagrajayogavaibhavam or Veenapustakadharini, we should be bound by the phrases used in the SSP.

In many other contexts, because he is bent upon singing stand alone alapanas and tanams, he has told that raga alapana is independent of kriti or tanam or pallavi. A case of dichotomy.

kvchellappa
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by kvchellappa »

As I see, you may sing an alapana without any kriti in mind consciously, but the way one has learnt it in karnaparampara (that is how CM seems to get passed on, one cannot learn directly from SSP) the phrases and sancharas used in several kritis must linger in the backdrop. As the raga has grammar, a singer may not do something on his own no matter how brilliant he is. Sri Muni Rao says, "With the enormous body of lakshya and lakshana works of many vaggeyakaras in all the compositional forms, is there anything original in creativity? It is truly kalpita but not kalpana! At the best, it is recreativity of the original kalpana. Kalpana is by its nature, rare of the rarest in occurrence. My guru and father SSRao was clear that it is 98% kalpita and may be 2% of kalpana, in rare and extraordinary moments of inspiration."

Sachi_R
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Sachi_R »

Comparisons are odious. So I apologise beforehand.

I feel whatever little I got to see through friendly video FB casts etc. and what I gather in this report, gives me the impression that this lec-dem is NOT A PATCH on what Sri TNS did in his lecdem on the Shyama Shastri navaratna kritis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwjrp4k_7Xs&t=5s

I feel that lec-dem deserves a lot of re-visits. Maybe because of the content, the composer, or the presenter, or all of it.
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic ... f9c3264f83

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Academic insight is certainly required for proper understanding of any subject. Perhaps in arts, due to the rather subjective nature, inferences differ.

melam72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by melam72 »

Sachi_R wrote: 03 Sep 2017, 17:48 I feel whatever little I got to see through friendly video FB casts etc. and what I gather in this report, gives me the impression that this lec-dem is NOT A PATCH on what Sri TNS did in his lecdem on the Shyama Shastri navaratna kritis.
Although I didn't attend the lec dem, I can see where you're coming from. TNS is not only a more knowledgable musician, but his background in Kathakalakshepam aids him in communicating to large audiences. TM Krishna is far more proficient in his written word than his spoken word (though that isn't saying much - though there is little he can do when all he has to say is absolute nonsense <redacted since many forum members found the characterization offensive>

arasi
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by arasi »

Please, Melam :(

narayara000
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by narayara000 »

melam72 wrote: 04 Sep 2017, 12:35
Although I didn't attend the lec dem, I can see where you're coming from. TNS is not only a more knowledgable musician, but his background in Kathakalakshepam aids him in communicating to large audiences. TM Krishna is far more proficient in his written word than his spoken word (though that isn't saying much - though there is little he can do when all he has to say is absolute nonsense which is supposed to come out from the opposite end of his body)!
I actually liked T.M. Krishna's lec dem on Manodharamam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va7kZP434LE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaZJSah3NyE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jMvw76Zprw

...a lot. It was engaging, easy to understand, had many valid points, and had some of his best singing.


kvchellappa
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by kvchellappa »

TMK is the foremost in the grip on CM and a very eloquent communicator. I have heard him many times and he is very clear-headed. He has done seminal work on SSP and the musical heavy weights that attended the talk show how they would like to learn from his research. If he failed to measure up, it is sad.
Where he errs is introducing 'Lutyens' thinking into the field of art. Art must be apolitical and free from the prejudices of the society. His crusade that CM is not concerned with meaning of lyrics or bhakti is funny. But, we cannot run him down on that score. The sanctity of this forum must be maintained and the unparliamentary comment must be expunged.

Sachi_R
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Sachi_R »

Dear Sri. KVC,
Coming to SSP and its study, I have heard that Smr Kalpakkam Swaminathan was an authority on the SSP and the Dikshitar Pathantara. I think in her memory, they have even published the notated compositions as she had learnt/edited them.

I have heard Sri M Balamuralikrishna had studied the SSP deeply and was thorough with those versions.

I think Smt. Vedavalli and some of her students are experts too.

I think Sri.RKSK has spearheaded the study of SSP for the bunch including TMK. I reckon TMK is 10 years his junior and studied SSP under him.

Whereas musically TMK stands tall, and he has a huge fan following, and is very active in several ways, he may not earn from me the title of torchbearer for SSP. I would like to keep my reverence for Sri Dikshitar, my admiration for the comprehensive and accessible work that SSP is, and my rasikatva for TMK's music, as three distinct reactions.

I laud TMK's efforts in bringing music and musical appreciation closer to laymen like me. For this, and for much more, I do pranam to all the great people I have mentioned in this thread.
5 September: Gurubhyo Namah!

melam72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by melam72 »

kvchellappa wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 08:24 Where he errs is introducing 'Lutyens' thinking into the field of art. Art must be apolitical and free from the prejudices of the society. His crusade that CM is not concerned with meaning of lyrics or bhakti is funny. But, we cannot run him down on that score. The sanctity of this forum must be maintained and the unparliamentary comment must be expunged.
Where he errs? He cannot help himself to bring out nonsense about politics/caste/music.

His dirty mind must've brought out the caste of Subburama Dikshitar into the SSP and the fact there were no kavadichindus noted down in SSP.

His lec-dems are are like nuggets of gold coated in an infinite layer of faecal matter. Whether the gold is worth it is left to the reader to decide.

I wish musicians stuck to musicking and politicians stuck to politicking.

But, after all, TM Krishna is no musician. He is a 'social activist'.

melam72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by melam72 »

Sachi_R wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 10:03 he may not earn from me the title of torchbearer for SSP
He isn't.

S Sowmya (to some extent), RK Shriramkumar, and RS Jayalakshmi are primary torchbearers. TM Krishna falls behind the RK Shriramkumar school, IMO. Not a torchbearer, but will be someday.

Nick H
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Nick H »

Melam72, you are a confused man.

You seem to have great difficulty in knowing which orifice people are talking out of, which many lead to orifice misuse on your own part.

You have a lot of things (well, two right here) wrong...

-- TMK is actually quite a good talker, but is writing varies from ok to awful.

-- TMK is actually a musician. He attempts to be a social activist, perhaps with some, but not award-worthy, success.
kvchellappa wrote:The sanctity of this forum must be maintained and the unparliamentary comment must be expunged.
Over many years, now, I have interacted with present and past members of this forum and its predecessors. Good people, respectable and respectable people, knowledgeable people, on- and 0ff-line friends. But sanctity has never been obvious :D

melam72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by melam72 »

Nick H wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 14:48 You seem to have great difficulty in knowing which orifice people are talking out of
I am a teacher, young man, so it is my job to know what orifice people are talking out of.
Nick H wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 14:48 -- TMK is actually quite a good talker, but is writing varies from ok to awful.
Disagreed. His mouth is better suited for singing rather than speaking. I find his writing a lot more tolerable- he handles abstract concepts like aesthetics like aesthetics magnificently in his book (though the book goes downhill from there).
Nick H wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 14:48 -- TMK is actually a musician. He attempts to be a social activist, perhaps with some, but not award-worthy, success.
Musicians ought to stay out of politics. They should stick with their jobs and let social activists do their own. But TMK has taken his talent for dramatic histrionics to the extreme and has begun to spend more time as a social activist. The moment he begot the ill-deserved Magsaysay, he became a 'social activist', when, in reality, he's in that rendu-kattan position between musician, social activist, and rabble-rouser/attention-seeker.
kvchellappa wrote:The sanctity of this forum must be maintained and the unparliamentary comment must be expunged.
What do you make out this forum to be? Some kind of temple??

This is how people speak in real life. Grow up and get out of your shell of prudishness.

(PS: I am not sorry about bursting your bubble)

(PPS: given recent events, you must acknowledge the very parlimentary nature of my comments :lol: :lol: :lol: )

arasi
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by arasi »

Teacher, teacher, not in your nature I hope--
You've picked up words of a few wards--they
Use them mindlessly :( you are to guide them,
Not emulate, to the extent civil language of
Other members seems prudish--come on!
Who wants to walk the roads of discussions
Littered with waste matter that wastes time!

Your valuable input is appreciated nonetheless...:)

As for TMK, some like his talk, others his written vAk
Often saying they don't like at all the other--let him
Strictly to music stay--we'd then like all of him!

arasi
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by arasi »

Nick,
Enjoy the moment. You are addressed as a young man, as one in his flock gets to be called-- though old man you certainly are not, when elders like me are still around :)

melam72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by melam72 »

arasi wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 20:12 Teacher, teacher, not in your nature I hope--
Definitely not in my nature- some people irritate me so royally that they get this 'sirappu nigazchi'.
arasi wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 20:12 Who wants to walk the roads of discussions
Littered with waste matter that wastes time!
Riddle me this - If the centre of discussion is waste matter, then what is the point of pursuing said discussion?
arasi wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 20:12 Your valuable input is appreciated nonetheless...:)
Do I sense a bit of sarcasm, Queen Poetess ;) ?
arasi wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 20:12 Strictly to music stay--we'd then like all of him!
TM Krishna the musician is actually one of my favourites. He takes all the positive qualities from his forefather-musicians - Semmangudi's planning, Chengalpettu Ranganathan's command over laya, the repertoire of varnams of Seetharama Sarma, and so on. With his connections, I expected him to get the SK around now (and, in the process, match his guru Semmangudi!). Yet, that was not to be...

arasi
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by arasi »

No sarcasm, I meant it--
Queen only in name--once in a while scoop up after a few mindless dog-loving citizens who walk past my door :(

vasanthakokilam
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by vasanthakokilam »

melam72 wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 20:23
arasi wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 20:12 Teacher, teacher, not in your nature I hope--
Definitely not in my nature- some people irritate me so royally that they get this 'sirappu nigazchi'.

There were several complaints about the usage and I redacted it without taking away what you meant to write.

Just as an aside, rhetorically speaking, I do not think you will tolerate a student giving such a reason/excuse, will you?

Now the challenge for you as a fan of TMK's music is can you enjoy his music given all the stuff you do not like in his other endeavors?
I agree it is not easy. As a fan of his musical side, when serious music oriented discussion was going on about his lec-dem, you could have resisted the urge to bring up his other side.

Nick H
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Nick H »

"Young Man" beats grand-dad, especially when I am old enough to be.

Otherwise, I'm in one of my Bart phases, and my favourite word is currently Whatever!

:twisted: :lol: :twisted:

melam72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by melam72 »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 22:41 Just as an aside, rhetorically speaking, I do not think you will tolerate a student giving such a reason/excuse, will you?
There is a difference between formal and informal settings.

If they dare even cuss in school, I would personally see to it that they are expelled- come what may. They know that and fear that, so they dare not use it.

Outside school, I cannot control them. I can only teach them- but I cannot make them act the way they want to. I've tried to control them, and I have failed miserably, so I have accepted that that is beyond my control.

Similarly, this is an informal setting. Hence that comment.

shankarank
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by shankarank »

Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 03 Sep 2017, 07:41 3. TMK made a passing remark (as I could make it out) that raga is independent of the Kriti. (In other words one need not draw from the kriti for alapana).
It is more like the rAgA wisdom is built from learning a lot of kritis of that rAgA , not that one particular kriti or usage will constrain the rAgA! As a sAdhaka he will find ways to deviate from known phrases in kritis.

As regards kriti's themselves what we hear often is they try to concretize the abstract notion of rAgA. But I am going one step further: the rAgA in turn exposes a more abstract concept of laya viSrAnti embedded in the kriti!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by vasanthakokilam »

melam72 wrote: 06 Sep 2017, 07:19
vasanthakokilam wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 22:41 Just as an aside, rhetorically speaking, I do not think you will tolerate a student giving such a reason/excuse, will you?
There is a difference between formal and informal settings.

If they dare even cuss in school, I would personally see to it that they are expelled- come what may. They know that and fear that, so they dare not use it.

Outside school, I cannot control them. I can only teach them- but I cannot make them act the way they want to. I've tried to control them, and I have failed miserably, so I have accepted that that is beyond my control.

Similarly, this is an informal setting. Hence that comment.
Fair enough. Just like you said you can not control your students, I am not here to control you but the community feedback is an important signal to take into consideration.

While it applies here, may be that is something you can impart that to your students as well. There is a saying isn't it to the effect 'sabai arindu sol'

Vocalist
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Vocalist »

More often than not, I think melam's comments bring about a sense of balance in these discussions which has been so lacking at times. That said, please do count me as one of the many who were offended by the characterisation which has since been redacted.

Coming back to the actual lecdem, out of curiosity for those who attended it, were any other known performing musicians in attendance (than those already mentioned so far)?

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Vocalist,
Several known performing artists were present. Pl go through the earlier posts.

kvchellappa
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by kvchellappa »

There are any number of people who would obey the law when observed and likely to be caught (formal settings) and will violate without compunction when not observed (informal settings). The question is whether it is appropriate and the right model.

varsha
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by varsha »

vk
We miss you in the normal course of discussions.Is this the only way we can hope to see you around? :roll: :P

kvchellappa
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by kvchellappa »

He appears only in spring!

melam72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by melam72 »

kvchellappa wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 07:50 There are any number of people who would obey the law when observed and likely to be caught (formal settings) and will violate without compunction when not observed (informal settings). The question is whether it is appropriate and the right model.
You can only take the donkey to the water; you cannot make it drink.

ram1999
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by ram1999 »

Aside of the topic of discussion, last week there was a lovely program on “Remembering Dr. Sreepada Pinakapani”. Lovely speeches by Spencer Sri Venugopal, Dr. Sundar and Sriram Parasuraman followed by a short veena recital by Jaya Sekar. Spencer Venugopal’s speech was absolutely a class as always and brought out the greatness of the artist. Sriram Parasuraman spoke really well and infact took a dig at the audience and young artists for not attending such programs in large numbers and how much wealth of knowledge they lose out. Infact as I could make out there weren’t any artist present.

I was also surprised why there weren’t any forum members and no reviews on this program. :D :D :D Long discussions happen on TMK (an overrated artist) but seldom wonderful programs are discussed :lol: :lol: :lol:

For those who are interested, the recording is available in YT.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Having attended this programme, I like to record few points here. This lec dem can be considered as two parts; the first part- lec dem proper where TMK was so sincere to the topic and stuck only to Subbarama Deekshithar and his work Pradarshini and the second part, the question and answer session, where the real TMK came out. Now, you can understand why I have divided the session into two.
Regarding the first part, he was so sincere and genuine and he really has worked on it. Just note, he really and no he only.
Few artists have been mentioned in this thread who have worked on Pradarshini. In my opinion, definitely, not to the level of TMK. If we take those musicians, we can divide them into two groups, the first one, who will never expose the gem Pradarshini to public and I doubt whether they themselves know its value and the second group they polish the gem so much so that the gem will lose its original beauty.
But with TMK, atleast with these kind of programmes which happen occasionally, he shares his idea of his journey with Pradarshini.
I doubt with how many musicians this will happen.

Regarding raga singing independent of learning a krithi, what he said was, we say we learn to sing a ragam from a krithi. But, in reality, once we get a template of a ragam, learning krithis are just an addition from that point onwards. It becomes independent of the krithi. This is what I have understood. I might have misinterpreted too.
So, beyond our personal likes and dislikes, we must learn to appreciate for his genuine effort.

Regarding second part, he openly snapped a mama who asked a genuine question regarding the use of gamakam in Thyagarajar compositions. For a long time, he was saying, enaku puriyala. Is this so difficult than interpreting Pradarshini? Then Sangeetha Shivakumar came to rescue to solve this very difficult question. Then, the real TMK came out and that mama was snapped in all the different ways.
Sangeetha Shivakumar interfered from thereon and the duo was answering all the queries. I even got a doubt regarding the presentor of the lec dem at that moment. A very bad gesture.

The stage was fully occupied by TMK and his students. But, in my opinion the students were totally clueless on this Pradarshini. You should see some of their faces. Mirandu pona madri irundadhu. Perhaps, they were awe struck by their teachers knowledge? Other than adding star value, their presence didn't solve any purpose. But, the rendition by two lady students were laudable.
Last edited by bhakthim dehi on 07 Sep 2017, 18:41, edited 1 time in total.

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Thanks for the details, Bhakthi.
I missed the QA session as I had to leave early.

Wanted to ask the following questions:
1. Key phrases in SSP version of Yadukulakambodhi.
2. Whether TMK renders the 'should not be left out' SSP phrases in ragaaalapana in his concerts?

Vocalist
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Vocalist »

Vocalist wrote: 06 Sep 2017, 20:29 out of curiosity for those who attended it, were any other known performing musicians in attendance (than those already mentioned so far)?
Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 06 Sep 2017, 21:03 Vocalist,
Several known performing artists were present. Pl go through the earlier posts.
Sivaramakrishnan, as you will see, I asked for names of those not already mentioned. Going through earlier posts, other than TMK and his students, CRama said "musicians like Suguna Varadachary, Dr.R.S.Jayalakshmi, R.K.Sreeramkumar, Aishwarya Sankar etc." and shriramkrishnan72 said "senior musicians like S Sowmya, Sangeeta Shivakumar, Sumitra Vasudev etc. were also in attendance among many young musicians and students."

melam72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by melam72 »

Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 17:15 1. Key phrases in SSP version of Yadukulakambodhi.
According to my copy of the SSP, the phrases GMPD, SRPMG, GRGS, 'SnS' (n is kakali) are unique to Erukula Kambhoji. Interestingly, there is only a swoop from S to P, but no kaakali nishadam creeping in there. That seems to be a Kambhoji trait
Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 17:15 2. Whether TMK renders the 'should not be left out' SSP phrases in ragaaalapana in his concerts?
I remember him rendering an (according-to-him) SSP Abheri before Veenabheri of Dikshitar.

Vocalist
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Vocalist »

ram1999 wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 11:02 Aside of the topic of discussion, last week there was a lovely program on “Remembering Dr. Sreepada Pinakapani”. Lovely speeches by Spencer Sri Venugopal, Dr. Sundar and Sriram Parasuraman followed by a short veena recital by Jaya Sekar. Spencer Venugopal’s speech was absolutely a class as always and brought out the greatness of the artist. Sriram Parasuraman spoke really well and infact took a dig at the audience and young artists for not attending such programs in large numbers and how much wealth of knowledge they lose out. Infact as I could make out there weren’t any artist present.

I was also surprised why there weren’t any forum members and no reviews on this program. :D :D :D Long discussions happen on TMK (an overrated artist) but seldom wonderful programs are discussed :lol: :lol: :lol:
So funny :D , yet so true - which is actually quite sad :( . I too noticed our regular reviewers of the webcast programs are doing this less frequently or are quite a bit slower in having the lists/reviews posted after the concert these days; perhaps they need more encouragement.

melam72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by melam72 »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 14:06 Then, the real TMK came out and that mama was snapped in all the different ways.
He can be like that sometimes. My wife's uncle attended a TMK concert at BVB, and since he had some kind of bladder problem, he stood up when the violinist was rendering an alapana. Seeing this, TMK told that poor old man that he needn't stay for the rest of the concert. Absolute...
bhakthim dehi wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 14:06 Mirandu pona madri irundadhu.
Like when I told them that they had to read 500 pages over the weekend :lol: :lol: :lol: !
bhakthim dehi wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 14:06 Other than adding star value, their presence didn't solve any purpose.
What star value? All of them are upcoming artistes. At least one of them (Rithvik Raja) is incapable of planning concerts.
bhakthim dehi wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 14:06 But, the rendition by two lady students were laudable.
The three TMK female disciples I have heard - Vidhya Raghavan, Bhargavi Venkatram, and Emmanuelle Martin, are all amongst the best upcoming female vidushis in Carnatic music. My only issue is that (a) nervousness is evident in Bhargavi's singing, and (b) Emmanuelle has a strong-ish accent so 'Guruguho' comes out as 'Koorookooho', but these will go away with experience.

Perhaps one could even say TMK works wonders with women! :twisted: :lol:

Vocalist
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by Vocalist »

melam72 wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 20:19
bhakthim dehi wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 14:06 Then, the real TMK came out and that mama was snapped in all the different ways.
He can be like that sometimes. My wife's uncle attended a TMK concert at BVB, and since he had some kind of bladder problem, he stood up when the violinist was rendering an alapana. Seeing this, TMK told that poor old man that he needn't stay for the rest of the concert. Absolute...
Regardless of the age of the audience member, does it really warrant that type of attention from a performer? It leaves a bad taste for everyone when an artist behaves that way. It might be understandable for the musician to say something like that if it was happening often from the particular audience member during a concert. But if that wasn't the case, there can be any number of unexpected or uncontrollable reasons why a person needs to temporarily leave the hall. Many professional musicians appreciate that, but it seems a gross shame that some so-called "professional" musicians appear incapable of considering that on the spot even after so many years.

melam72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by melam72 »

Vocalist wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 20:38 It might be understandable for the musician to say something like that if it was happening often from the particular audience member during a concert.
He went before the concert so he wouldn't endure that fate (having heard about this from his friends and colleagues). However, 90 minutes into the concert, he had an uncontrollable urge to go to the toilet, and since he can't 'store it', he hastily got up. That might have ignited that 'singakutti' (Chengalpet Ranganathan's nickname for TMK). The fact that mama was sitting in the third or fourth row must've compounded to the situation.

melam72
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by melam72 »

arasi wrote: 05 Sep 2017, 20:46once in a while scoop up after a few mindless dog-loving citizens who walk past my door :(
They are lucky they have you as a neighbour.

The last time some dog took a dump before my home, I viewed the CCTV camera on the movements on the day, found out who did that, and visited their house to force them to clean it up themselves. Since I was enormously persistent, the offender finally gave in and cleaned it up.

No one dared walk their dog in front of my house again, and my house is right behind a bus stop too!

SrinathK
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by SrinathK »

regarding the use of gamakam in Thyagarajar compositions
Not sure why Thyagaraja would be brought up in this topic, but speaking of gamakas, just see how much they changed in 50 years... (I digress yes, but Dikshitar has also been through a similar process).

1930 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYK7IORQNow
1980s :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZC6XYPGuw0

Also, did the Dhannamal school (Veena Dhanammal had a link to the Dikshitar parampara) have an impact on the evolution of the gamaka?

shankarank
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Re: T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

Post by shankarank »

The microphone did. Sri K.S Kalidas did talk about the high pitch and the need to reach - where sophistication is not possible. We have the 78 RPM(s) but the hypothetical court setting where earlier vidvans sang RTPs in a reverbrating halls is not something we have recordings for.

These are all stage voices ( quoting Brindamma's mock heard by our Dear MKR) - so we cannot tell :lol: .

I also think in those early days they were less worried about tradition - i.e. sing it the way you are taught - as they had to impress audiences - with CM as the only entertaining art form! They sang with more freedom. The anxiety to keep tradition is likely more responsible for bringing the influence of teaching into performance! And in the process we may have gained some musical treasures. In return we lost originality?

As much as TMK claims he is no longer providing entertainment - CM was already not entertaining really!

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