T.M.KRISHNA- LEC DEM- SANGEETA SAMPRADAYA PRADARSHINI- 31/8/17

[arasi]

No sarcasm, I meant it--
Queen only in name--once in a while scoop up after a few mindless dog-loving citizens who walk past my door

[vasanthakokilam]

Teacher, teacher, not in your nature I hope--

Definitely not in my nature- some people irritate me so royally that they get this 'sirappu nigazchi'.

There were several complaints about the usage and I redacted it without taking away what you meant to write.

Just as an aside, rhetorically speaking, I do not think you will tolerate a student giving such a reason/excuse, will you?

Now the challenge for you as a fan of TMK's music is can you enjoy his music given all the stuff you do not like in his other endeavors?
I agree it is not easy. As a fan of his musical side, when serious music oriented discussion was going on about his lec-dem, you could have resisted the urge to bring up his other side.

[Nick H]

"Young Man" beats grand-dad, especially when I am old enough to be.

Otherwise, I'm in one of my Bart phases, and my favourite word is currently Whatever!

[melam72]

Just as an aside, rhetorically speaking, I do not think you will tolerate a student giving such a reason/excuse, will you?

There is a difference between formal and informal settings.

If they dare even cuss in school, I would personally see to it that they are expelled- come what may. They know that and fear that, so they dare not use it.

Outside school, I cannot control them. I can only teach them- but I cannot make them act the way they want to. I've tried to control them, and I have failed miserably, so I have accepted that that is beyond my control.

Similarly, this is an informal setting. Hence that comment.

[shankarank]

3. TMK made a passing remark (as I could make it out) that raga is independent of the Kriti. (In other words one need not draw from the kriti for alapana).

It is more like the rAgA wisdom is built from learning a lot of kritis of that rAgA , not that one particular kriti or usage will constrain the rAgA! As a sAdhaka he will find ways to deviate from known phrases in kritis.

As regards kriti's themselves what we hear often is they try to concretize the abstract notion of rAgA. But I am going one step further: the rAgA in turn exposes a more abstract concept of laya viSrAnti embedded in the kriti!

[vasanthakokilam]

Just as an aside, rhetorically speaking, I do not think you will tolerate a student giving such a reason/excuse, will you?

There is a difference between formal and informal settings.

If they dare even cuss in school, I would personally see to it that they are expelled- come what may. They know that and fear that, so they dare not use it.

Outside school, I cannot control them. I can only teach them- but I cannot make them act the way they want to. I've tried to control them, and I have failed miserably, so I have accepted that that is beyond my control.

Similarly, this is an informal setting. Hence that comment.

Fair enough. Just like you said you can not control your students, I am not here to control you but the community feedback is an important signal to take into consideration.

While it applies here, may be that is something you can impart that to your students as well. There is a saying isn't it to the effect 'sabai arindu sol'

[Vocalist]

More often than not, I think melam's comments bring about a sense of balance in these discussions which has been so lacking at times. That said, please do count me as one of the many who were offended by the characterisation which has since been redacted.

Coming back to the actual lecdem, out of curiosity for those who attended it, were any other known performing musicians in attendance (than those already mentioned so far)?

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Vocalist,
Several known performing artists were present. Pl go through the earlier posts.

[kvchellappa]

There are any number of people who would obey the law when observed and likely to be caught (formal settings) and will violate without compunction when not observed (informal settings). The question is whether it is appropriate and the right model.

[varsha]

vk
We miss you in the normal course of discussions.Is this the only way we can hope to see you around?

[kvchellappa]

He appears only in spring!

[melam72]

There are any number of people who would obey the law when observed and likely to be caught (formal settings) and will violate without compunction when not observed (informal settings). The question is whether it is appropriate and the right model.

You can only take the donkey to the water; you cannot make it drink.

[ram1999]

Aside of the topic of discussion, last week there was a lovely program on “Remembering Dr. Sreepada Pinakapani”. Lovely speeches by Spencer Sri Venugopal, Dr. Sundar and Sriram Parasuraman followed by a short veena recital by Jaya Sekar. Spencer Venugopal’s speech was absolutely a class as always and brought out the greatness of the artist. Sriram Parasuraman spoke really well and infact took a dig at the audience and young artists for not attending such programs in large numbers and how much wealth of knowledge they lose out. Infact as I could make out there weren’t any artist present.

I was also surprised why there weren’t any forum members and no reviews on this program. Long discussions happen on TMK (an overrated artist) but seldom wonderful programs are discussed

For those who are interested, the recording is available in YT.

[bhakthim dehi]

Having attended this programme, I like to record few points here. This lec dem can be considered as two parts; the first part- lec dem proper where TMK was so sincere to the topic and stuck only to Subbarama Deekshithar and his work Pradarshini and the second part, the question and answer session, where the real TMK came out. Now, you can understand why I have divided the session into two.
Regarding the first part, he was so sincere and genuine and he really has worked on it. Just note, he really and no he only.
Few artists have been mentioned in this thread who have worked on Pradarshini. In my opinion, definitely, not to the level of TMK. If we take those musicians, we can divide them into two groups, the first one, who will never expose the gem Pradarshini to public and I doubt whether they themselves know its value and the second group they polish the gem so much so that the gem will lose its original beauty.
But with TMK, atleast with these kind of programmes which happen occasionally, he shares his idea of his journey with Pradarshini.
I doubt with how many musicians this will happen.

Regarding raga singing independent of learning a krithi, what he said was, we say we learn to sing a ragam from a krithi. But, in reality, once we get a template of a ragam, learning krithis are just an addition from that point onwards. It becomes independent of the krithi. This is what I have understood. I might have misinterpreted too.
So, beyond our personal likes and dislikes, we must learn to appreciate for his genuine effort.

Regarding second part, he openly snapped a mama who asked a genuine question regarding the use of gamakam in Thyagarajar compositions. For a long time, he was saying, enaku puriyala. Is this so difficult than interpreting Pradarshini? Then Sangeetha Shivakumar came to rescue to solve this very difficult question. Then, the real TMK came out and that mama was snapped in all the different ways.
Sangeetha Shivakumar interfered from thereon and the duo was answering all the queries. I even got a doubt regarding the presentor of the lec dem at that moment. A very bad gesture.

The stage was fully occupied by TMK and his students. But, in my opinion the students were totally clueless on this Pradarshini. You should see some of their faces. Mirandu pona madri irundadhu. Perhaps, they were awe struck by their teachers knowledge? Other than adding star value, their presence didn't solve any purpose. But, the rendition by two lady students were laudable.

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Thanks for the details, Bhakthi.
I missed the QA session as I had to leave early.

Wanted to ask the following questions:
1. Key phrases in SSP version of Yadukulakambodhi.
2. Whether TMK renders the 'should not be left out' SSP phrases in ragaaalapana in his concerts?

[Vocalist]

out of curiosity for those who attended it, were any other known performing musicians in attendance (than those already mentioned so far)?

Vocalist,
Several known performing artists were present. Pl go through the earlier posts.

Sivaramakrishnan, as you will see, I asked for names of those not already mentioned. Going through earlier posts, other than TMK and his students, CRama said "musicians like Suguna Varadachary, Dr.R.S.Jayalakshmi, R.K.Sreeramkumar, Aishwarya Sankar etc." and shriramkrishnan72 said "senior musicians like S Sowmya, Sangeeta Shivakumar, Sumitra Vasudev etc. were also in attendance among many young musicians and students."

[melam72]

1. Key phrases in SSP version of Yadukulakambodhi.

According to my copy of the SSP, the phrases GMPD, SRPMG, GRGS, 'SnS' (n is kakali) are unique to Erukula Kambhoji. Interestingly, there is only a swoop from S to P, but no kaakali nishadam creeping in there. That seems to be a Kambhoji trait

2. Whether TMK renders the 'should not be left out' SSP phrases in ragaaalapana in his concerts?

I remember him rendering an (according-to-him) SSP Abheri before Veenabheri of Dikshitar.

[Vocalist]

Aside of the topic of discussion, last week there was a lovely program on “Remembering Dr. Sreepada Pinakapani”. Lovely speeches by Spencer Sri Venugopal, Dr. Sundar and Sriram Parasuraman followed by a short veena recital by Jaya Sekar. Spencer Venugopal’s speech was absolutely a class as always and brought out the greatness of the artist. Sriram Parasuraman spoke really well and infact took a dig at the audience and young artists for not attending such programs in large numbers and how much wealth of knowledge they lose out. Infact as I could make out there weren’t any artist present.

I was also surprised why there weren’t any forum members and no reviews on this program. Long discussions happen on TMK (an overrated artist) but seldom wonderful programs are discussed

So funny , yet so true - which is actually quite sad . I too noticed our regular reviewers of the webcast programs are doing this less frequently or are quite a bit slower in having the lists/reviews posted after the concert these days; perhaps they need more encouragement.

[melam72]

Then, the real TMK came out and that mama was snapped in all the different ways.

He can be like that sometimes. My wife's uncle attended a TMK concert at BVB, and since he had some kind of bladder problem, he stood up when the violinist was rendering an alapana. Seeing this, TMK told that poor old man that he needn't stay for the rest of the concert. Absolute...

Mirandu pona madri irundadhu.

Like when I told them that they had to read 500 pages over the weekend !

Other than adding star value, their presence didn't solve any purpose.

What star value? All of them are upcoming artistes. At least one of them (Rithvik Raja) is incapable of planning concerts.

But, the rendition by two lady students were laudable.

The three TMK female disciples I have heard - Vidhya Raghavan, Bhargavi Venkatram, and Emmanuelle Martin, are all amongst the best upcoming female vidushis in Carnatic music. My only issue is that (a) nervousness is evident in Bhargavi's singing, and (b) Emmanuelle has a strong-ish accent so 'Guruguho' comes out as 'Koorookooho', but these will go away with experience.

Perhaps one could even say TMK works wonders with women!

[Vocalist]

Then, the real TMK came out and that mama was snapped in all the different ways.

He can be like that sometimes. My wife's uncle attended a TMK concert at BVB, and since he had some kind of bladder problem, he stood up when the violinist was rendering an alapana. Seeing this, TMK told that poor old man that he needn't stay for the rest of the concert. Absolute...

Regardless of the age of the audience member, does it really warrant that type of attention from a performer? It leaves a bad taste for everyone when an artist behaves that way. It might be understandable for the musician to say something like that if it was happening often from the particular audience member during a concert. But if that wasn't the case, there can be any number of unexpected or uncontrollable reasons why a person needs to temporarily leave the hall. Many professional musicians appreciate that, but it seems a gross shame that some so-called "professional" musicians appear incapable of considering that on the spot even after so many years.

[melam72]

It might be understandable for the musician to say something like that if it was happening often from the particular audience member during a concert.

He went before the concert so he wouldn't endure that fate (having heard about this from his friends and colleagues). However, 90 minutes into the concert, he had an uncontrollable urge to go to the toilet, and since he can't 'store it', he hastily got up. That might have ignited that 'singakutti' (Chengalpet Ranganathan's nickname for TMK). The fact that mama was sitting in the third or fourth row must've compounded to the situation.

[melam72]

once in a while scoop up after a few mindless dog-loving citizens who walk past my door

They are lucky they have you as a neighbour.

The last time some dog took a dump before my home, I viewed the CCTV camera on the movements on the day, found out who did that, and visited their house to force them to clean it up themselves. Since I was enormously persistent, the offender finally gave in and cleaned it up.

No one dared walk their dog in front of my house again, and my house is right behind a bus stop too!

[SrinathK]

regarding the use of gamakam in Thyagarajar compositions

Not sure why Thyagaraja would be brought up in this topic, but speaking of gamakas, just see how much they changed in 50 years... (I digress yes, but Dikshitar has also been through a similar process).

1930 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYK7IORQNow
1980s :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZC6XYPGuw0

Also, did the Dhannamal school (Veena Dhanammal had a link to the Dikshitar parampara) have an impact on the evolution of the gamaka?

[shankarank]

The microphone did. Sri K.S Kalidas did talk about the high pitch and the need to reach - where sophistication is not possible. We have the 78 RPM(s) but the hypothetical court setting where earlier vidvans sang RTPs in a reverbrating halls is not something we have recordings for.

These are all stage voices ( quoting Brindamma's mock heard by our Dear MKR) - so we cannot tell .

I also think in those early days they were less worried about tradition - i.e. sing it the way you are taught - as they had to impress audiences - with CM as the only entertaining art form! They sang with more freedom. The anxiety to keep tradition is likely more responsible for bringing the influence of teaching into performance! And in the process we may have gained some musical treasures. In return we lost originality?

As much as TMK claims he is no longer providing entertainment - CM was already not entertaining really!