On the Unsuitability of Western Instruments for Music of Any
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Reading any primer on music system tells us that Western Music uses the Equal Temperament Tuning whereas Indian Classical Music uses Just Intonation.
At a fundamental level, the tones of Western musical instruments do not agree with the tones used by Carnatic Music.
There is no reason to argue that the reason to reject the introduction of Western musical instruments in Carnatic Music is their inability to properly produce the gamakams required by Carnatic Music when fundamentally the instruments are unsuited for Western Music itself.
It must not be imagined that that the difference between tempered and just intonation is a mere mathematical subtilty without any practical value. That this difference is really striking even to unmusical ears, is shewn immediately by actual experiments with properly tuned instruments.
The difference between natural and tempered intonation is greatest and most unpleasant in the higher Octaves of the scale, because here the false combinational tones of the tempered intonation are more observable, and the number of beats for equal differences of pitch becomes larger, and hence the roughness greater.
And after all, I do not know that it was so neccessary to sacrifice correctness of intonation to the convenience of musical instruments.
At a fundamental level, the tones of Western musical instruments do not agree with the tones used by Carnatic Music.
There is no reason to argue that the reason to reject the introduction of Western musical instruments in Carnatic Music is their inability to properly produce the gamakams required by Carnatic Music when fundamentally the instruments are unsuited for Western Music itself.
It must not be imagined that that the difference between tempered and just intonation is a mere mathematical subtilty without any practical value. That this difference is really striking even to unmusical ears, is shewn immediately by actual experiments with properly tuned instruments.
The difference between natural and tempered intonation is greatest and most unpleasant in the higher Octaves of the scale, because here the false combinational tones of the tempered intonation are more observable, and the number of beats for equal differences of pitch becomes larger, and hence the roughness greater.
And after all, I do not know that it was so neccessary to sacrifice correctness of intonation to the convenience of musical instruments.
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If we are to be serious about just intonation, and discard equal temperament utterly, we should also do away with graha/shruti bhedam.
And by the way, in the violin, the player is at complete liberty to choose the pitches for notes s/he plays, so the violin is still not a problem.
And by the way, in the violin, the player is at complete liberty to choose the pitches for notes s/he plays, so the violin is still not a problem.
Last edited by srikant1987 on 26 Dec 2009, 00:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Harimau,
I am a champion of just temperament intonations and and tuning accuracies in CM, I loathe equal temperament for my own satisfaction in practising CM and I've experimented extensively with intonations in Carnatic music and have demostrated such things online and elsewhere. Hence my obsession with continuous pitch slide instruments, particularly the chitravina. In fact, for precisely this reason, i.e., accuracy of all intonations and gamakas, I am not even happy with the flute and hence am working on the design of a sliding wind instrument (same principle as the trombone) suitable for Carnatic music.
But your thesisis not true, as has been shown by the effectiveness of electric mandolin/guitar as an instrument for CM. Only G3 or antara gandharam is affected significantly. Panchama is very very close, off just by a cent or two, and I suspect one of the Saarang shruti boxes use that "harmonium" panchamam and hence my perpetual dissatisfaction. But these are just mild irritants. Also, even the small tuning discrepancies that you encounter in any standard Carnatic veena recital due to the unsettling that occurs due to the pulling will be greater than the difference between just intonations and equal temperament. Therefore, after obsessively championing your idea, I've come to the conclusion that it is untenable. Ultimately, I think CM can be delivered quite adequately for most people with equal temperament instruments. In fact I can wager that there are veenas being played out there which are fretted in equal temperament.
As for WM, a great majority of repertoire came after CPE Bach (son of "the" Bach) and others converged on the design of equal temperament. Hence it is safe to say that most of the romatic composition that came in the 19th century were already envisioned with equal temperament in mind. I don't know if you've heard some of the pieces from the websites associated with just intonation movements. They sound very "odd", thanks to my corruption of equal temperament.
I am a champion of just temperament intonations and and tuning accuracies in CM, I loathe equal temperament for my own satisfaction in practising CM and I've experimented extensively with intonations in Carnatic music and have demostrated such things online and elsewhere. Hence my obsession with continuous pitch slide instruments, particularly the chitravina. In fact, for precisely this reason, i.e., accuracy of all intonations and gamakas, I am not even happy with the flute and hence am working on the design of a sliding wind instrument (same principle as the trombone) suitable for Carnatic music.
But your thesisis not true, as has been shown by the effectiveness of electric mandolin/guitar as an instrument for CM. Only G3 or antara gandharam is affected significantly. Panchama is very very close, off just by a cent or two, and I suspect one of the Saarang shruti boxes use that "harmonium" panchamam and hence my perpetual dissatisfaction. But these are just mild irritants. Also, even the small tuning discrepancies that you encounter in any standard Carnatic veena recital due to the unsettling that occurs due to the pulling will be greater than the difference between just intonations and equal temperament. Therefore, after obsessively championing your idea, I've come to the conclusion that it is untenable. Ultimately, I think CM can be delivered quite adequately for most people with equal temperament instruments. In fact I can wager that there are veenas being played out there which are fretted in equal temperament.
As for WM, a great majority of repertoire came after CPE Bach (son of "the" Bach) and others converged on the design of equal temperament. Hence it is safe to say that most of the romatic composition that came in the 19th century were already envisioned with equal temperament in mind. I don't know if you've heard some of the pieces from the websites associated with just intonation movements. They sound very "odd", thanks to my corruption of equal temperament.
Last edited by Guest on 26 Dec 2009, 03:04, edited 1 time in total.
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vk,vasanthakokilam wrote:There are tunable keyboards as well. ( Also, I think that guitars are tunable to the just intonation frequencies, similarly Cello should not be a problem either )
Guitars are very often tuned by ear to just intonation like we tune a violin in CM for example. Only novices use corresponding frets on ajdacent string or an electronic tuner in the modern age. The discrepancy between just intonation and equal temperament is irrelevant to the practice of the art, particularly in WM. In fact, to achieve perfect accuracy in the guitar tuning, sometimes harmonics (generated by lightly touching the string at a nodal point) are compared between adjacent strings. All this is according to just intonation. Only when you start using the frets does the equal temperament figure. In symphony orchestras, some instrument (piano if there's one, as in a piano concerto) gives a reference A above middle C (440Hz) and the rest of the strings (violins, violias, cellos, etc..) tune their A strings to unison with that and then tune the rest of their strings by ear, most likely for just intonation.
As for "tunability" of keyboards or fretboards to just intonation, you cannot do it with just twelve notes in an octave...I believe you would need 72 to satisfy all the combination of major and minor chords of the white keys. So I'm not sure what you mean by "tunable keyboard". If you mean adjusting the pitch to any arbitrary value (as opposed to absolute accuracy of 440Hz for A and so on) that's just a scalar multiplier to all the pitches and still does not change the interval between successive keys. That facility is available I believe in all electric pianosa nd synthesizer. But it still remains equally tempered.
Please don't lose your temper, justu.. .
An interesting tidbit about the use of the equal temperament electronic tuner...Pandit Ravi Shankar (as well as Anoushka Shankar, no comments ) who has been handicapped with impaired hearing due to old age and hence wears a hearing aid, uses an equal temperament electronic tuner to tune the sympathetic strings of the sitar. That's how irrelevant the discrepancy of equal temperament is to Hindustani Music.
Last edited by Guest on 26 Dec 2009, 04:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Uday: By 'tunable keyboard' I meant the ones like Yamaha DX7II/TX802 which supports micro-tuning where each key can be tuned individually. I was stating that as a counter point to harimau's attempt at strongly linking non-indian instruments with equal temperament tuning. ( As you mentioned, there will be issues with all the combinations of major and minor chords of the white keys.... )
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Uday,
So you say G3 is more different than other notes between just intonation and equal temperaments. Which of these is of a smaller pitch?
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Sorry, I made some calculations myself. It looks like the ratio between ga (3) and sa is 1.2599 in equal temperament and 1.25 in just intonation. (It goes to demonstrate a problematic pitch sense I've developed from my experience with the keyboard.)
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But: antara gandharam is a very important note too!
So you say G3 is more different than other notes between just intonation and equal temperaments. Which of these is of a smaller pitch?
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Sorry, I made some calculations myself. It looks like the ratio between ga (3) and sa is 1.2599 in equal temperament and 1.25 in just intonation. (It goes to demonstrate a problematic pitch sense I've developed from my experience with the keyboard.)
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But: antara gandharam is a very important note too!
Last edited by srikant1987 on 26 Dec 2009, 08:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Srikant
There's an excellent table at the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
I take it you know how to calculate intervals in terms of cents and what it signifies. If not I urge you to investigate it, it's quite simple, here's a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(music)
What's important in that table is the last column, which denotes the discrepancy in cents between equal temperament and just intonation. Even more important is that some of these discrepancies (in my experience ) work to the advantage of CM and some to its disadvantage. So here's a quick note by note analysis - note (pun intented!) that positive sign denotes that just intonation is higher than equal temperament (abbreviated as ET) and vice versa.
1. S : No difference...no surprises there !
2. R1 : Discrepancy of +12 cents. ET works slightly to the advantage of CM because we usually play our R1 closer to S and no matter how close it is, clocer the better. The slogan "saveri" holds for most R1 ragas except minor ragas like revati which has a significantly higher R1.
3. R2 : Discrepancy of +4 cents. Small enough to ignore.
4. G2 : Discrepancy of +16 cents. ET works to the advantage of CM because we have a tendency to make the G2 closer to R2 except in ragas like Hindolam and Shuddha Dhanyasi.
5. G3 : Discrepancy of -14 cents. ET words to the distinct disadvantage of CM because we want our antara gandharam to blend perfectly with the tambura. There are too many ragas where one has to hold the antara gandharam steady with kaarvai.
6. M1: Discrepancy of -2 cents. Small enough to ignore although the four notes S,G3,M1 and P have to be taken more seriously than the others. In any case, the 2 cent increase in ET is small enough to ignore.
7. M2: Discrepancy of -17 cents. This is a no brainer. Prati madhyama in CM can be played practically as an anuswara of P...so the higher the merrier. So ET is a distinct advantage.
8. Piscrepancy of +2 cents. Hence the feeling that the electronic keyboard or harmonium's panchamam is just a tad lower than where might want it. But small enough to ignore...identical situation as with respect to M1.
9. D1: Discrepancy of 14 cents. ET is an advantage exactly like in the case of R1.
10. D2: Discrepancy of -16. This swaram is a Carnatic conundrum because different schools intuitively play it differently. Chitravina schools plays a strict just intonation with a strict consonance between G3 and D2. Some violin schools play it with a R2-D2 consonance (if your finger placement for R2 on the Sa string and D2 on the Pa string are same, then you're following the R2-D2 consonance) which actually leads to a ratio of 27/16 (=905 cents) thereby leading to a discrepancy of +5. So one might say ET is a compromise between these two values. My personal preference, is for the just intonation (the slighly lower D2 brings out beautiful vadhi-samvadhi with G3 in ragas like Kamboji and Shahana).
11. N2 : Discrepancy of -31. This swaram in ET could be big disavantage in CM but usually it can be bypassed on the harmonium for ragas like Bhairavi because the note can be played as "gamakas" of the form "SDSD". For ragas where N2 figures openly, like Madhyamavati or Suratti, this discrepancy does not matter. For ragas like kamboji, where N2 hugs the D2, this may be a problem but considering that it's only played plain in the avarohanam it my not be much of an issue. More fundamentally, this the just intonation ratio of 7/4 (7th harmonic) is very low and I've only seen the LS brothers play N2 that low. Everyone else is closer to the much higher and closer to ET value of 16/9 and such. So in the final analysis we're OK with ET wrt this note too.
12. N3 : Discrepancy of -12. A slight disadvantage for CM.
So CM is much more complex than simply using "just intonation" for open notes. This subject is extremely complex and I would suggest Harimau to withdraw the topic if he could . It is completed uncharted territory as far as CM is concerned and practically everything the Prof. Sambamoorthy wrote on such subjects as intervals is fanciful speculation without any scientific measurements. People like CS Ayyar in the 40's and more recently Arvindh Krishnaswamy at Stanford have done some real measurement to dispel many of the myths regarding Carnatic intonations.
There's an excellent table at the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
I take it you know how to calculate intervals in terms of cents and what it signifies. If not I urge you to investigate it, it's quite simple, here's a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(music)
What's important in that table is the last column, which denotes the discrepancy in cents between equal temperament and just intonation. Even more important is that some of these discrepancies (in my experience ) work to the advantage of CM and some to its disadvantage. So here's a quick note by note analysis - note (pun intented!) that positive sign denotes that just intonation is higher than equal temperament (abbreviated as ET) and vice versa.
1. S : No difference...no surprises there !
2. R1 : Discrepancy of +12 cents. ET works slightly to the advantage of CM because we usually play our R1 closer to S and no matter how close it is, clocer the better. The slogan "saveri" holds for most R1 ragas except minor ragas like revati which has a significantly higher R1.
3. R2 : Discrepancy of +4 cents. Small enough to ignore.
4. G2 : Discrepancy of +16 cents. ET works to the advantage of CM because we have a tendency to make the G2 closer to R2 except in ragas like Hindolam and Shuddha Dhanyasi.
5. G3 : Discrepancy of -14 cents. ET words to the distinct disadvantage of CM because we want our antara gandharam to blend perfectly with the tambura. There are too many ragas where one has to hold the antara gandharam steady with kaarvai.
6. M1: Discrepancy of -2 cents. Small enough to ignore although the four notes S,G3,M1 and P have to be taken more seriously than the others. In any case, the 2 cent increase in ET is small enough to ignore.
7. M2: Discrepancy of -17 cents. This is a no brainer. Prati madhyama in CM can be played practically as an anuswara of P...so the higher the merrier. So ET is a distinct advantage.
8. Piscrepancy of +2 cents. Hence the feeling that the electronic keyboard or harmonium's panchamam is just a tad lower than where might want it. But small enough to ignore...identical situation as with respect to M1.
9. D1: Discrepancy of 14 cents. ET is an advantage exactly like in the case of R1.
10. D2: Discrepancy of -16. This swaram is a Carnatic conundrum because different schools intuitively play it differently. Chitravina schools plays a strict just intonation with a strict consonance between G3 and D2. Some violin schools play it with a R2-D2 consonance (if your finger placement for R2 on the Sa string and D2 on the Pa string are same, then you're following the R2-D2 consonance) which actually leads to a ratio of 27/16 (=905 cents) thereby leading to a discrepancy of +5. So one might say ET is a compromise between these two values. My personal preference, is for the just intonation (the slighly lower D2 brings out beautiful vadhi-samvadhi with G3 in ragas like Kamboji and Shahana).
11. N2 : Discrepancy of -31. This swaram in ET could be big disavantage in CM but usually it can be bypassed on the harmonium for ragas like Bhairavi because the note can be played as "gamakas" of the form "SDSD". For ragas where N2 figures openly, like Madhyamavati or Suratti, this discrepancy does not matter. For ragas like kamboji, where N2 hugs the D2, this may be a problem but considering that it's only played plain in the avarohanam it my not be much of an issue. More fundamentally, this the just intonation ratio of 7/4 (7th harmonic) is very low and I've only seen the LS brothers play N2 that low. Everyone else is closer to the much higher and closer to ET value of 16/9 and such. So in the final analysis we're OK with ET wrt this note too.
12. N3 : Discrepancy of -12. A slight disadvantage for CM.
So CM is much more complex than simply using "just intonation" for open notes. This subject is extremely complex and I would suggest Harimau to withdraw the topic if he could . It is completed uncharted territory as far as CM is concerned and practically everything the Prof. Sambamoorthy wrote on such subjects as intervals is fanciful speculation without any scientific measurements. People like CS Ayyar in the 40's and more recently Arvindh Krishnaswamy at Stanford have done some real measurement to dispel many of the myths regarding Carnatic intonations.
Last edited by Guest on 26 Dec 2009, 10:04, edited 1 time in total.
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This is one of those technical conversations in which I can be but an observer, and perhaps not even that when the numbers take over, but just one thing...
This means that the fact that a person is using a tuning meter does not necessarily indicate tempered scale, especially as I'm sure they have become more sophisticated in the decade since I bought my meter.
However, if your ears tell you that RS does tune those strings to a tempered scale, that is more than good enough for me! Perhaps he never read the manual that came with his tuning meter!
As for the unsuitability of Western instruments to Western music; the two have developed hand in hand and "unsuitability" is just a nonsense.
You probably have more experience of tuning meters and their results than I do, but the one that I have is not fixed to one standard Western scale: as well as the simple calibration of "A=" it has the ability to be set to a number of different scales.Uday_Shankar wrote:An interesting tidbit about the use of the equal temperament electronic tuner...Pandit Ravi Shankar (as well as Anoushka Shankar, no comments smile) who has been handicapped with impaired hearing due to old age and hence wears a hearing aid, uses an equal temperament electronic tuner to tune the sympathetic strings of the sitar. That's how irrelevant the discrepancy of equal temperament is to Hindustani Music.
This means that the fact that a person is using a tuning meter does not necessarily indicate tempered scale, especially as I'm sure they have become more sophisticated in the decade since I bought my meter.
However, if your ears tell you that RS does tune those strings to a tempered scale, that is more than good enough for me! Perhaps he never read the manual that came with his tuning meter!
As for the unsuitability of Western instruments to Western music; the two have developed hand in hand and "unsuitability" is just a nonsense.
Last edited by Guest on 26 Dec 2009, 11:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Here are the alternative scales (temperaments is probably the right word; it is the one the manual uses!) that my Korg tuning meter handles. It also handles transposition.
Pythagorean
Werckmeister III
Vallotti
Mean Tone E-flat
Kirnberger III
Young
Mean Tone D-sharp
Kellner
None of which mean anything to me, but I suspect that they might to you.
Pythagorean
Werckmeister III
Vallotti
Mean Tone E-flat
Kirnberger III
Young
Mean Tone D-sharp
Kellner
None of which mean anything to me, but I suspect that they might to you.
Last edited by Guest on 26 Dec 2009, 14:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick
Thanks for that eye opener. Quite presumtuous of me to think that those electronic tuners are all by default chromatic (casual parlance for equal temperament). I do know broadly what those tuning schemes mean, some in better detail than others. I personally don't touch electronic tuners and don't plan to since I don't need them .
I might as well talk briefly about the tuning schemes. Some of those tuning schemes are closer to just, some closer to equal temperament. For example the Pythagorean scheme uses a series of fifths (Sa-Pa) and people like prof. sambamoorthy became obsessed with them and somehow tried to retrofit 22 shrutis and such into them.
Some of those tuning schemes, such as the classical meantone E tuning, are absolutely stunning tuning methods used by piano tuners. It is safe to say that they are beyond the hearing heirarchies of a large percentage of practising musicians - western or eastern. There are systematic thumb rules to get the correct intonation for various piano strings, some of which involve, gasp, counting the number of beats per socond when two strings are sounded togethers. In addition, the strings' tension mutually affect one-another as well as the temperature, pressure, where the hammer strikes, whether the strike is piano (soft) or forte (hard). It one of the greatest of tuning arts.
Somehow, I think Pt. Ravi Shankar used equal temperament...probably the default mode of the tuner.
Now just out of curiosity I might want to see your tuner...will try to catch you in some katcheri or somewhere and beg you for a trial ).
Thanks for that eye opener. Quite presumtuous of me to think that those electronic tuners are all by default chromatic (casual parlance for equal temperament). I do know broadly what those tuning schemes mean, some in better detail than others. I personally don't touch electronic tuners and don't plan to since I don't need them .
I might as well talk briefly about the tuning schemes. Some of those tuning schemes are closer to just, some closer to equal temperament. For example the Pythagorean scheme uses a series of fifths (Sa-Pa) and people like prof. sambamoorthy became obsessed with them and somehow tried to retrofit 22 shrutis and such into them.
Some of those tuning schemes, such as the classical meantone E tuning, are absolutely stunning tuning methods used by piano tuners. It is safe to say that they are beyond the hearing heirarchies of a large percentage of practising musicians - western or eastern. There are systematic thumb rules to get the correct intonation for various piano strings, some of which involve, gasp, counting the number of beats per socond when two strings are sounded togethers. In addition, the strings' tension mutually affect one-another as well as the temperature, pressure, where the hammer strikes, whether the strike is piano (soft) or forte (hard). It one of the greatest of tuning arts.
Somehow, I think Pt. Ravi Shankar used equal temperament...probably the default mode of the tuner.
Now just out of curiosity I might want to see your tuner...will try to catch you in some katcheri or somewhere and beg you for a trial ).
Last edited by Guest on 26 Dec 2009, 17:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Uday: That is an excellent and succinct write up on the CM requirements for tuning. It is quite pertinent since the topic of this thread is the suitability of instruments for CM even when we do not consider gamakams. So the message is, neither standard tuning systems satisfy all ragas, so the instrument needs to support some form of 'Etrippidi, irakkipidi' from the standard swarasthanas for kArvai notes and non-gamaka straight note sequences.
Thanks.
(BTW, a couple of months back, I needed to look up Arvindh Krishnaswamy's data but I could not find them anymore at the stanford links. I think he is out of Stanford now, but I do not see him publishing it anywhere else, at least his facebook profile does not point to his past research material. I do not know what is going on there. )
Thanks.
(BTW, a couple of months back, I needed to look up Arvindh Krishnaswamy's data but I could not find them anymore at the stanford links. I think he is out of Stanford now, but I do not see him publishing it anywhere else, at least his facebook profile does not point to his past research material. I do not know what is going on there. )
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It is interesting to note that western music has not been enslaved by Equal Tempered Intonation but experiments are being made in using Just Intonation also. Michael Harrison has created waves by tuning the piano to Pythogorean tuning. His record ‘Revelation’ has received rave reviews. Some of them are given below. There is something unusual in the melody he creates.
Revelation on Piano by Harrison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ieHZ5qmJZI
Reviews
http://www.michaelharrison.com/NYpress.html
With the arrival of the reactionary minimalists, not only was tonality stubbornly re-established, but there was a newfound desire to reconnect music to a higher purpose. But this time they were not simply restricted to addressing Christian ideals. Composers such as LaMonte Young and Terry Riley found inspiration in North Indian Classical music’s alternate tuning systems, exotic instruments and peaceful selflessness. The appeal of these aesthetics has remained alive for many of minimalism’s disciples, including Michael Harrison, whose aptly titled Revelation: Music for the Harmonically Tuned Piano will be performed this weekend as part of the American Festival of Microtonal Music.
A protege of both Young and Riley as well as a student of North Indian vocal music master Pandit Pran Nath, Harrison has developed his own personalized piano tuning for his 90-minute solo piano piece based on the naturally occurring overtones, similar to the system designed by Pythagoras. The result, at first, to both trained and untrained ears is that the notes sound out of tune, like an extremely old and neglected honky-tonk piano. But upon more careful inspection, one can hear that just the opposite is the case. Each string has been carefully tuned to create mathematically accurate ratios.
Harrison believes that by embracing the irregularities of a harmonically tuned piano, he has taken the next step in what Schoenberg described as "the emancipation of dissonance." In Schoenberg’s case, he threw the tonal system of composition away and focused on intervals and the dissonance it created. In Harrison’s case, he has rejected equal temperament tuning in order to achieve a similar goal.
http://www.michaelharrison.com/michael- ... views.html
In the final chapter of Temperament (Knopf), author Stuart Isacoff describes Harrison’s Revelation:
"It sounded like a jumble at first--a drone, or a room full of drones. Then, from within the din, high-pitched sounds seemed to rise and float toward the ceiling. The deeper Harrison played into the bass end of the instrument, the more he seemed to free an angelic choir above. Were these sympathetic vibrations? I wondered. Overtones? The clashing of strings just slightly out of tune? I couldn’t tell. Now the texture changed. The pianist’s fingers engaged in a furious rhythmic interplay, and a groaning mass of sound in the low end of the piano gave birth to more phantoms above. Musical concords seemed to emerge and shake hands above the fray."
Linda Kohanov, contributing editor, CD Review
" Harrison has perfected a way of playing in just intonation at the piano"¦ such celestial resonance that it captures your attention from the first note."
Revelation on Piano by Harrison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ieHZ5qmJZI
Reviews
http://www.michaelharrison.com/NYpress.html
With the arrival of the reactionary minimalists, not only was tonality stubbornly re-established, but there was a newfound desire to reconnect music to a higher purpose. But this time they were not simply restricted to addressing Christian ideals. Composers such as LaMonte Young and Terry Riley found inspiration in North Indian Classical music’s alternate tuning systems, exotic instruments and peaceful selflessness. The appeal of these aesthetics has remained alive for many of minimalism’s disciples, including Michael Harrison, whose aptly titled Revelation: Music for the Harmonically Tuned Piano will be performed this weekend as part of the American Festival of Microtonal Music.
A protege of both Young and Riley as well as a student of North Indian vocal music master Pandit Pran Nath, Harrison has developed his own personalized piano tuning for his 90-minute solo piano piece based on the naturally occurring overtones, similar to the system designed by Pythagoras. The result, at first, to both trained and untrained ears is that the notes sound out of tune, like an extremely old and neglected honky-tonk piano. But upon more careful inspection, one can hear that just the opposite is the case. Each string has been carefully tuned to create mathematically accurate ratios.
Harrison believes that by embracing the irregularities of a harmonically tuned piano, he has taken the next step in what Schoenberg described as "the emancipation of dissonance." In Schoenberg’s case, he threw the tonal system of composition away and focused on intervals and the dissonance it created. In Harrison’s case, he has rejected equal temperament tuning in order to achieve a similar goal.
http://www.michaelharrison.com/michael- ... views.html
In the final chapter of Temperament (Knopf), author Stuart Isacoff describes Harrison’s Revelation:
"It sounded like a jumble at first--a drone, or a room full of drones. Then, from within the din, high-pitched sounds seemed to rise and float toward the ceiling. The deeper Harrison played into the bass end of the instrument, the more he seemed to free an angelic choir above. Were these sympathetic vibrations? I wondered. Overtones? The clashing of strings just slightly out of tune? I couldn’t tell. Now the texture changed. The pianist’s fingers engaged in a furious rhythmic interplay, and a groaning mass of sound in the low end of the piano gave birth to more phantoms above. Musical concords seemed to emerge and shake hands above the fray."
Linda Kohanov, contributing editor, CD Review
" Harrison has perfected a way of playing in just intonation at the piano"¦ such celestial resonance that it captures your attention from the first note."
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On a tangential note:
Arun
Indeed there seems something unusual (and beautiful) there, although (i could be mistaken) in this case, the melody seems based on the dorian mode i.e. khaharapriya which may not be that common in that genre (i.e compared to major/minor/harmonic minor etc.). Can anyone else see the connection?There is something unusual in the melody he creates.
Revelation on Piano by Harrison
http://
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ieHZ5qmJZI
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 27 Dec 2009, 20:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Shivadasan wrote:
"...It is interesting to note that western music has not been enslaved by Equal Tempered Intonation but experiments are being made in using Just Intonation also..."
With all due respect to you, sir, equal temperament is not "enslavement" but a natural evolutionary step that made possible the enormous harmonic repertoire that followed. If you don't have a background in listening extensively to western classical music (and I apologize if you do) quoting reviews of the Harrison piano concert will give a distorted notion of these things. In fact, this is true of the original post on just intonation by Harimau too. The just intonation movement is no more than a fringe movement and one should not get the idea that "even in the west people are coming round to some purer idea of intonation, etc".
It is certainly nice and novel to listen to the Harrison Piano but I can assure you that all intonations are practical approximations and there's not an "esoteric mathematically perfect" scale. Music making all about creating an effect with sounds and scales...not the attainment of some mathematical perfection.
Beyond a few cents the average human ear simply does not care. Certainly the average Carnatic ear does not care. The drift in the tambura is more than a cent for sure. Tambura tuning is the art of maximizing consonance, not eliminating dissonace altogether. In fact that slight dissonace provided by the drift due to the jiva is what enhances the effect of the drone. The art of placing the jiva is to optimize the drift for an overall maximization of consonance.
There is a profound disconnect in the Carnatic world between this esoteric notion of some mathematically perfect scale (typically enshrined as the "22 shrutis") and what is actually practised by musicians, including those that have perfect (nothing is "perfect", just very highly developed and universally accepted) shruti-shuddham.
For example, there are fundamental problems with certain vina frets that have never been addressed through the ages and vainikas couldn't be bothered because it was handed to them perfectly designed by the goddess saraswati. I've discussed some of them in some thread in the technical section. In fact I'm working with a young and talented vainika from an illustrious lineage on a fret design that can solve some of those intonational problems. The vainika was quite stunned to learn that there are such discrepancies. Other vainikas would be too, if they had an open mind. But first let's see if this fret design works !
"...It is interesting to note that western music has not been enslaved by Equal Tempered Intonation but experiments are being made in using Just Intonation also..."
With all due respect to you, sir, equal temperament is not "enslavement" but a natural evolutionary step that made possible the enormous harmonic repertoire that followed. If you don't have a background in listening extensively to western classical music (and I apologize if you do) quoting reviews of the Harrison piano concert will give a distorted notion of these things. In fact, this is true of the original post on just intonation by Harimau too. The just intonation movement is no more than a fringe movement and one should not get the idea that "even in the west people are coming round to some purer idea of intonation, etc".
It is certainly nice and novel to listen to the Harrison Piano but I can assure you that all intonations are practical approximations and there's not an "esoteric mathematically perfect" scale. Music making all about creating an effect with sounds and scales...not the attainment of some mathematical perfection.
Beyond a few cents the average human ear simply does not care. Certainly the average Carnatic ear does not care. The drift in the tambura is more than a cent for sure. Tambura tuning is the art of maximizing consonance, not eliminating dissonace altogether. In fact that slight dissonace provided by the drift due to the jiva is what enhances the effect of the drone. The art of placing the jiva is to optimize the drift for an overall maximization of consonance.
There is a profound disconnect in the Carnatic world between this esoteric notion of some mathematically perfect scale (typically enshrined as the "22 shrutis") and what is actually practised by musicians, including those that have perfect (nothing is "perfect", just very highly developed and universally accepted) shruti-shuddham.
For example, there are fundamental problems with certain vina frets that have never been addressed through the ages and vainikas couldn't be bothered because it was handed to them perfectly designed by the goddess saraswati. I've discussed some of them in some thread in the technical section. In fact I'm working with a young and talented vainika from an illustrious lineage on a fret design that can solve some of those intonational problems. The vainika was quite stunned to learn that there are such discrepancies. Other vainikas would be too, if they had an open mind. But first let's see if this fret design works !
Last edited by Guest on 28 Dec 2009, 00:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Dear Uday,
Thanking you for dispelling my ignorance of the scales in western music. I have heard some classical pieces by Beethovan, Bach, Motzart, Vivaldi etc. and was able to enjoy them. However I was unable to derive pleasure by listening to the later composers. May be I did not have sufficient information about them. But when I heard some East German composers’ work on war theme based mostly on dissonance, I wondered where had music come to. That was thirty five years ago. As you rightly conjectured, my interaction with WM is very little. When I saw the Wikpaedia article on intonation I was surprised to find so many intonations in WM. I had known only about the tempered scale through books on Indian Music. I had no opportunity to go deeper into WM. The post was more based on Harimau’s original post rather than anything else.
The subject of the tanpura tuning has intrigued me for a long time. Can you post some detailed information on the jiva and how it works ?
Thanking you for dispelling my ignorance of the scales in western music. I have heard some classical pieces by Beethovan, Bach, Motzart, Vivaldi etc. and was able to enjoy them. However I was unable to derive pleasure by listening to the later composers. May be I did not have sufficient information about them. But when I heard some East German composers’ work on war theme based mostly on dissonance, I wondered where had music come to. That was thirty five years ago. As you rightly conjectured, my interaction with WM is very little. When I saw the Wikpaedia article on intonation I was surprised to find so many intonations in WM. I had known only about the tempered scale through books on Indian Music. I had no opportunity to go deeper into WM. The post was more based on Harimau’s original post rather than anything else.
The subject of the tanpura tuning has intrigued me for a long time. Can you post some detailed information on the jiva and how it works ?
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Shivadasan, anything I have to say about the tambura jiva would be less informed and valuable than the poster with the handle martin. martin, if you're seeing this please respond.
See if this post is of any help:
http://rasikas.org/forums/post86326.html#p86326
The tambura is an ocean in and of itself. Probably the greatest musical instrument of India. Not only that, with a little piece of wood, it can also be turned into a very serviceable gotuvadyam/chitravina !
See if this post is of any help:
http://rasikas.org/forums/post86326.html#p86326
The tambura is an ocean in and of itself. Probably the greatest musical instrument of India. Not only that, with a little piece of wood, it can also be turned into a very serviceable gotuvadyam/chitravina !
Last edited by Guest on 28 Dec 2009, 10:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Not nonsense. It is just that Western Music was adapted to the limitations of the instruments. And Western ears also adapted themselves to the new music.nick H wrote:
As for the unsuitability of Western instruments to Western music; the two have developed hand in hand and "unsuitability" is just a nonsense.
My original posting included this:
And after all, I do not know that it was so neccessary to sacrifice correctness of intonation to the convenience of musical instruments.
That was a comment by Hermann Holtzmann, a respected physicist who investigated this particular aspect of musical instruments.
In fact, the three small paragraphs in italics in my original post were quotes from Hermann Holtzmann.
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There is a considerable body of music written before the Equal Temperament was widely adopted.nick H wrote:Necessary or not, desirable or not, modern western music and its instruments have grown up hand in hand. You think music is composed on one set of instruments and played on another? No; it is not.
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What time did equal temperament get widely adopted?harimau wrote:There is a considerable body of music written before the Equal Temperament was widely adopted.
CM is composed through singing, I suppose. But there are subtle and flexible restrictions on what can and cannot (should and should not) be sung.harimau wrote:But Carnatic Music should be played on the Saxophone, keyboard, etc?
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Bunch of people who think "playing according to the rules" is something exclusive to carnatic music. Law, mathematics etc are all the same. While some set of axioms might lead to interesting theorems, others might not. Play whatever you want and experiment and if some good music comes out if, good for all of us.
Bunch of narrow-minded jingoists.
Bunch of narrow-minded jingoists.
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If you go back far enough you will find compositions that are now a minority interest and that are played and sung by those with an interest in the original instruments, temperements, etc. Scotish bagpipe music is neither composed for, nor played on, equal-temperament instruments. Apart from this, there is, I think, a body of music that was not written for equal-temperament, but is played by modern-day orchestras. I guess we have simply never heard this as the composer intended, although "experimental" performances may be done.harimau wrote:There is a considerable body of music written before the Equal Temperament was widely adopted.
Moving of goal posts; that would be relevant to a thread that might be called "Western instruments are unsuitable for carnatic music", which this one is not. It is also something often discussed anyway. I'm not wild about carnatic sax, and I don't care for keyboards in this music (electronic or harmonium), is my personal view. But you can't get away from your inability to substantiate your opening statement by changing the argument.harimau wrote:But Carnatic Music should be played on the Saxophone, keyboard, etc?
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Actually, I think the substantiation can be found in Herman Holtzmann's statement that he saw no need to sacrifice music for the convenience of musical instruments, a point which you choose to ignore.nick H wrote:If you go back far enough you will find compositions that are now a minority interest and that are played and sung by those with an interest in the original instruments, temperements, etc. Scotish bagpipe music is neither composed for, nor played on, equal-temperament instruments. Apart from this, there is, I think, a body of music that was not written for equal-temperament, but is played by modern-day orchestras. I guess we have simply never heard this as the composer intended, although "experimental" performances may be done.harimau wrote:There is a considerable body of music written before the Equal Temperament was widely adopted.
Moving of goal posts; that would be relevant to a thread that might be called "Western instruments are unsuitable for carnatic music", which this one is not. It is also something often discussed anyway. I'm not wild about carnatic sax, and I don't care for keyboards in this music (electronic or harmonium), is my personal view. But you can't get away from your inability to substantiate your opening statement by changing the argument.harimau wrote:But Carnatic Music should be played on the Saxophone, keyboard, etc?
Of course you can argue that Western Music is represented only by those that were written for equal temperament instruments. One could point out that this music fits Samuel Johnson's definition to a T: that music is the least disagreeable of noises! Because Equal Temperament is considered the best among bad choices!
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I think I heard about electronic tuners for pianos about 10 years ago if not earlier.Uday_Shankar wrote:
Nick
....I personally don't touch electronic tuners and don't plan to since I don't need them .
Some of those tuning schemes, such as the classical meantone E tuning, are absolutely stunning tuning methods used by piano tuners. It is safe to say that they are beyond the hearing heirarchies of a large percentage of practising musicians - western or eastern. There are systematic thumb rules to get the correct intonation for various piano strings, some of which involve, gasp, counting the number of beats per socond when two strings are sounded togethers. In addition, the strings' tension mutually affect one-another as well as the temperature, pressure, where the hammer strikes, whether the strike is piano (soft) or forte (hard). It one of the greatest of tuning arts.
You strike a key on the piano and the instrument measures the output frequency and tells you whether to tighten or loosen that specific string.
Your complicated scheme might have been needed when electrical engineers hadn't poked their noses into yet another domain of "craftsmen" but nowadays, piano tuning is no longer so esoteric as you make it out to be.
But then, in India, once some process has been learnt, there are always reasons why an improved method won't work in India.
Just ask a banker why they can't hand out cash when you present a check on your own account like they do in the West. They will tell you, "Oh, you mean the Teller System. No, it won't work in India!" That is the end of discussion with them.
It is no different in the arts.
By the way, here is a guitar that is claimed to always stay in tune:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/10/ever ... supremacy/
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Yes, I choose to ignore it. He may not like equal temperament; You may not like equal temprement; You might not, for that, like the entire diverse body of "Western music". So what? It doesn't take academics to argue with nonsense, and your opening assertion is nonsense. That's all.harimau wrote:Actually, I think the substantiation can be found in Herman Holtzmann's statement that he saw no need to sacrifice music for the convenience of musical instruments, a point which you choose to ignore.
So... you don't like it. That's fine; you don't have to; nor do you have to talk about it ---- especially on a carnatic music forumOf course you can argue that Western Music is represented only by those that were written for equal temperament instruments. One could point out that this music fits Samuel Johnson's definition to a T: that music is the least disagreeable of noises! Because Equal Temperament is considered the best among bad choices!
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My understanding of CM relative to other music systems is that people get used to and start liking the note values and intonations they are familiar with, so much so that they sometimes construct elaborate arguments in logic and rigour to justify their preference. Recalling a previous post by Nick with a list of different intonation/pitch systems, I am sure that listeners think that their own native system is perfect or if not, the closest to perfect among the available systems.Uday_Shankar wrote:
[Excellent excellent post trimmed space....]
So CM is much more complex than simply using "just intonation" for open notes. This subject is extremely complex and I would suggest Harimau to withdraw the topic if he could . It is completed uncharted territory as far as CM is concerned and practically everything the Prof. Sambamoorthy wrote on such subjects as intervals is fanciful speculation without any scientific measurements. People like CS Ayyar in the 40's and more recently Arvindh Krishnaswamy at Stanford have done some real measurement to dispel many of the myths regarding Carnatic intonations.
I have witnessed hindustani listeners grimace at the pratimadhyamam in kalyani but not even blink at the pratimadhyamam in simhendramadhyamam. The note values are not that different in fact but the difference is psychological -- they thought they knew kalyani vis-a-vis their knowledge of Yaman and hence had an expectation whereas they had no such bias for simhendramadhyamam. Sure there are differences in intonation but the experience is much more complex than mere note value differences. But I am sure that some of these listeners would be willing to construct an elaborate argument based on cents for the case that the kalyani madhyamam is "wrong". And these are still Indian listeners! I would not want to bore you with how my Middle-Eastern friend grimaced when I thought I had done a reasonable job of imitating an Arabic singer.
If you want a quote, the great T Viswa says in one of the lec-dems posted on sangeethamshare "the intuition is always there first, the grammar comes later" while describing how varali does not conform either to its own stated arohanam-avarohanam or the grammar based on melas and janyas. He makes the point marvelously by playing some glides in varali and saying "there is no explanation for these in the system" because "varali as a raga is much older than the grammar." What are note value rules, if not grammar?
Just as Western Music listeners presumably got used to the intonation of modern instruments and enjoy them perhaps just as much, if it should come to pass that CM is played a lot on pianos and tubas with different intonation, in time CM listeners will also start enjoying the new intonations and ornamentations if they like the overall experience.
To be fair, questions about intonation, both theoretical and practical, are extremely important but they are different questions from what the music system as a whole should allow or prohibit. As Uday_shankar says, we should not pretend to know things that we do not know for certain and the whole theory of pitch is certainly one of them. I suspect that it is likely to stay that way for a while because it is clear that what the human ear-brain combo perceives is a far cry from what an oscilloscope measures.
The real question for CM should be "can we find something new and worthy using a different intonation system?" For example, can we really do the hard thing -- set aside our biases and listen to somebody play the notes of todi on a standard keyboard and enjoy it? Whether that new thing should be called CM or something else should be left for later generations. After all, our job one is merely to create and pass on to succeeding generations more than we have received from past generations.
-Then Paanan
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You haven't edited it. You have deleted it. and may I know why you chose to do that? Is it because I was getting personal? I can show you lots of posts where people have gotten personal. Please be fair - there was some joker who spoke about increasing entropy and tries to rationalize it with the concept of evolution - and I simply refuted.
Both of us know we are - so , please be fair and let me express.
thanks
Both of us know we are - so , please be fair and let me express.
thanks
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Dear Mr.Nexusone,
There are some rules in any game. Similarly there are some rules in this forum you have to accept. This forum is a place where certain things are revered. You can't touch it. Criticism/bashing accepted to some extent. No indivuidual hitting. Please accept. After all it is your choice either to take or leave. Even I learned hardway. Democracy doesn't work always
Regards
There are some rules in any game. Similarly there are some rules in this forum you have to accept. This forum is a place where certain things are revered. You can't touch it. Criticism/bashing accepted to some extent. No indivuidual hitting. Please accept. After all it is your choice either to take or leave. Even I learned hardway. Democracy doesn't work always
Regards
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As one major site puts it in their rules, there is free speech on the net, you can say whatever you like on your own site!
Even here, we are not always polite to each other --- but one test is that members do, at least, contribute something interesting or useful, not just carping. Anyone who doesn't like it is free not to come here.
Even here, we are not always polite to each other --- but one test is that members do, at least, contribute something interesting or useful, not just carping. Anyone who doesn't like it is free not to come here.
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I think the topic is a contradiction in terms. Why would people in the West devise instruments that they called musical instruments if they couldn't make any with them? Forgive me if this wasn't the intended meaning of the topic.
For Carnatic music, there are certain instruments that are a natural fit, while others don't fit the needs of the musical style exactly. The proof of the music is in the listening. When we heard U Srinivas play authentic Carnatic music on the Mandolin, some of us probably shunned it in disbelief, some of us were appreciative of his genius and others probably helped the little genius along as he made a name for himself. I think I can safely say that most Carnatic music lovers like U Srinivas' music and skill these days.
The Haaken Continuum fingerboard was released in 2004 (if I remember right), and holds promise to musicians looking for new ways to express their creativity as Carnatic musicians. Most of us may find it difficult to play Carnatic music on a piano because of the discontinuous notes it produces or because it is tuned a certain way. However, with a continuum fingerboard, all this changes.
I hope that in this context, it is pertinent to say that the future favours those who can make things work, not those who endlessly debate pontifically on matters that need little more examination than they're already getting.
Anyway, fellow Carnatic aficionados, enjoy your music and find new and interesting ways of playing your instruments!
For Carnatic music, there are certain instruments that are a natural fit, while others don't fit the needs of the musical style exactly. The proof of the music is in the listening. When we heard U Srinivas play authentic Carnatic music on the Mandolin, some of us probably shunned it in disbelief, some of us were appreciative of his genius and others probably helped the little genius along as he made a name for himself. I think I can safely say that most Carnatic music lovers like U Srinivas' music and skill these days.
The Haaken Continuum fingerboard was released in 2004 (if I remember right), and holds promise to musicians looking for new ways to express their creativity as Carnatic musicians. Most of us may find it difficult to play Carnatic music on a piano because of the discontinuous notes it produces or because it is tuned a certain way. However, with a continuum fingerboard, all this changes.
I hope that in this context, it is pertinent to say that the future favours those who can make things work, not those who endlessly debate pontifically on matters that need little more examination than they're already getting.
Anyway, fellow Carnatic aficionados, enjoy your music and find new and interesting ways of playing your instruments!
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I bought a synthesizer keyboard for my child to play with some years ago and at the time I bought it I thought I was just getting a keyboard with piano-like sounds. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it is loaded with all kinds of synthetized sounds like (multiple) sitars, oudh, and various stringed instruments I had never heard of, drums of various kinds including mridangam and tabla, and a whole lot besides. That led me to the question: what is common to all these sounds and why is it loaded in to this kind of instrument? The only reason I can think of is that perhaps the keyboard presents the easiest form factor for the untrained person to play on. Setting aside all questions of suitability for CM, what strengths do keyboards come with? Is it just 'vive la difference" or is there more to it? Independent of whether it can be a concert instrument, can it be used, with appropriate modifications, to _teach_ CM in a more accessible way?rajesh_rs wrote:
The Haaken Continuum fingerboard was released in 2004 (if I remember right), and holds promise to musicians looking for new ways to express their creativity as Carnatic musicians. Most of us may find it difficult to play Carnatic music on a piano because of the discontinuous notes it produces or because it is tuned a certain way. However, with a continuum fingerboard, all this changes.
I hope that in this context, it is pertinent to say that the future favours those who can make things work, not those who endlessly debate pontifically on matters that need little more examination than they're already getting.
Anyway, fellow Carnatic aficionados, enjoy your music and find new and interesting ways of playing your instruments!
-Then Paanan
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>Haaken Continuum fingerboard was released
yes, it is an interesting instrument. It is not western or eastern, it is modern. Here the instrument gets out of the way for the most part, putting most of responsibility to the artists. In competent hands, I think carnatic music can be played to arbitrary degree of curves and classicism.
Listen to A. R. Rahman here playing th continuum... this is just one aspect of it. It will be good if TNS or Ravikiran take a stab at this instrument.
http://www.cerlsoundgroup.org/Continuum ... ex248.html
yes, it is an interesting instrument. It is not western or eastern, it is modern. Here the instrument gets out of the way for the most part, putting most of responsibility to the artists. In competent hands, I think carnatic music can be played to arbitrary degree of curves and classicism.
Listen to A. R. Rahman here playing th continuum... this is just one aspect of it. It will be good if TNS or Ravikiran take a stab at this instrument.
http://www.cerlsoundgroup.org/Continuum ... ex248.html
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Recently there is an emerging trend in trying to mix Western and Carnatic music beyond instruments and their usability.
Ofcourse, masters like Ilayaraja have been successfully proving western instruments capability in creating ambiance around Carnatic music ragas with background bass chords with Guitar and Keyboard supporting the front line Flute and violins. "Nothing But Wind" is a good example.
Open source music programming libraries like CFugue are paving way to further this in terms of reaching to programmers and developers. To quote CFugue documentation from: http://musicnote.sourceforge.net/docs/html/index.html
Gopalakrishna Palem
http://gpalem.Web.Officelive.com
Ofcourse, masters like Ilayaraja have been successfully proving western instruments capability in creating ambiance around Carnatic music ragas with background bass chords with Guitar and Keyboard supporting the front line Flute and violins. "Nothing But Wind" is a good example.
Open source music programming libraries like CFugue are paving way to further this in terms of reaching to programmers and developers. To quote CFugue documentation from: http://musicnote.sourceforge.net/docs/html/index.html
Hope this progressive trend thins the line of difference between Western and Carnatic Music, at least in terms of procedural music generation."...This library makes it possible to play music notes directly from C/C++ programs ...
... And the music notes are not restricted to be of just Western sytle either. CFugue fully supports both Western and Carnatic Music notations - with a simple hint from the KeySignature directive, one should be able to switch between them seamlessly..."
Gopalakrishna Palem
http://gpalem.Web.Officelive.com
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I agree, I believe we should make modifications where necessary or possible to innovate new sounds and tones that can be used in Carnatic music. U Srinivas' mandolin tone, for example, was alien to most Carnatic aficionados in the 1970s, but many of them probably loved its tone and his skill when he played ragas like Ganamurti or Bindumalini on it - I guess each instrument can be calibrated to bring out the best bits of its tone.thenpaanan wrote:I was pleasantly surprised to find that it is loaded with all kinds of synthetized sounds like (multiple) sitars, oudh, and various stringed instruments I had never heard of, drums of various kinds including mridangam and tabla, and a whole lot besides. That led me to the question: what is common to all these sounds and why is it loaded in to this kind of instrument? The only reason I can think of is that perhaps the keyboard presents the easiest form factor for the untrained person to play on. Setting aside all questions of suitability for CM, what strengths do keyboards come with? Is it just 'vive la difference" or is there more to it? Independent of whether it can be a concert instrument, can it be used, with appropriate modifications, to _teach_ CM in a more accessible way?
-Then Paanan
Although I don't lament it, I believe there are not enough artists that play more than one instrument. Maybe this is why we find violinists who don't like the Mandolin or Vainikas who don't like the Violinists. How many artists like Prince Rama Varma or TNS actually play multiple instruments and sing? Or like Umayalpuram Sivaraman, who is in favour of novel and synthetic materials used to make mridangams and percussion instruments? Wouldn't it be nice if more did this? When their trained minds and ears are put to work on instruments we won't be having these sorts of discussions, and instead would probably be appreciating some new innovation on an instrument by some new artist.
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What all do they play? Rama Verma only plays the veena, afaik. I wouldn't think playing the harmonium as such is much of a challenge for someone who already plays some other instrument!How many artists like Prince Rama Varma or TNS actually play multiple instruments and sing?
This is actually spread much wider than you think: in particular pretty much all melodic instrumentalists sing too. Apart from that, many people play the mridangam too: TVG plays violin (indeed S Varadarajan is his disciple!) and mridangam, Smt Rama Ravi plays the flute and the mridangam, Mali could play the violin, TNK has given flute concerts, etc.
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Thanks for enlightening me on this - and I care because I guess getting locked into one instrument for fear of not being expert at one or for fear of not being associated with one is shortsighted. Instruments are probably like languages - each one has a different method of expressing the same basic musical idea. While some languages are better suited for expressing certain ideas, by no means need sufficiently complex languages (or instruments for that matter) wholly excluded from the discourse (or music).srikant1987 wrote:What all do they play? Rama Verma only plays the veena, afaik. I wouldn't think playing the harmonium as such is much of a challenge for someone who already plays some other instrument!How many artists like Prince Rama Varma or TNS actually play multiple instruments and sing?
This is actually spread much wider than you think: in particular pretty much all melodic instrumentalists sing too. Apart from that, many people play the mridangam too: TVG plays violin (indeed S Varadarajan is his disciple!) and mridangam, Smt Rama Ravi plays the flute and the mridangam, Mali could play the violin, TNK has given flute concerts, etc.
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Take a look at this Ipod application called bebot:rajesh_rs wrote: The Haaken Continuum fingerboard was released in 2004 (if I remember right), and holds promise to musicians looking for new ways to express their creativity as Carnatic musicians. Most of us may find it difficult to play Carnatic music on a piano because of the discontinuous notes it produces or because it is tuned a certain way. However, with a continuum fingerboard, all this changes.
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2009/ ... pod-touch/
it seems to have much of the functionality of the Haaken Continuum
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- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Mohan: I have been playing with it for the past couple of hours. In capable hands like yours and Sathya's, CM should be very much possible. It requires some experimentation. The horizontal movement of the finger changes the frequency and the vertical movement changes the timbre of the sound. The horizontal movement can be 'snapped' to swarasthanas ( fretted ) or can be completely free floating ( fretless ) which is quite wild. All you have is a surface of minutely changing frequencies. There are two in between settings which controls the manner in which it snaps to the swarasthanas as you transition from one area to the other. I think CM gamakams can be explored with all these settings. It is quite sensitive, so one requires skilled movements to make some pleasant sounding music with the 'fret-less' settings. I hope they add more sounds/instruments. I found two that are reasonably pleasant. It is worth the $2.00 I paid for it. Full 'vasool' already!!
In that National Integration video A.R. Rahman plays with such a fretless frequency surface. This one is sort of similar to that. I think you will be able to reproduce that with this software.
iPad with its bigger screen real estate should provide for much more freedom.
In that National Integration video A.R. Rahman plays with such a fretless frequency surface. This one is sort of similar to that. I think you will be able to reproduce that with this software.
iPad with its bigger screen real estate should provide for much more freedom.