A living legend... and his music now - TMK on Vidvan Sanjay

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Oct 2012, 20:30

Mahavishnu, CML,
Just saw your posts.
Just because we voice our reactions toa write up does not mean that we do not appreciate TMK's music for all that it has to offer us. We do not alienate musicians for what they say, paying scant attention to their music. They are first musicians and then their personalities come in. At least, that's how most rasikAs feel, I think. The
participants in this thread have not indulged in any emotional outbursts of a personal kind--an admirable thing. Otherwise, this would have been a locked thread by now.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 13 Oct 2012, 20:35

Let us all take a short musical break from this discussion.

This just in. Here is a clip of a younger Sanjay from the 90s with Gayatri (of Ranjani-Gayatri) on violin. He has just landed his signature style of viruttam singing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbEqOra8 ... ture=g-u-u

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Oct 2012, 20:38

Well said Mm Congeniality!
We can expect a "No offence taken" note from TMK soon

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Oct 2012, 20:42

Thx Ramesh
..a real classical Sanjay...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Oct 2012, 21:56

eesha wrote:"It is indeed very difficult for me to write this piece because any critique from me will be viewed as coming from a rival musician."
"rival musician" ?? Was that a Freudian slip ?? something that has come out of subconscious mind ??
"contemporary musician" would have been a better

No! It is very clear in what he wrote. He is not characterizing himself as a rival to Sanjay, but as how his critique may be perceived by others. That is "words written as a rival" as opposed to "honest musical critique from another musician" and he has taken pains to say it is not the former but the latter.

There is some evidence of that very mis-conception in this thread

Proof positive.

(I feel a bit compelled to set my own context that I am not taking sides with TMK, how my best friends are Sanjay fans, I have attended more Sanjay concerts than TMK etc. but I won't

)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Oct 2012, 22:19

Varsha: That is very good portrayal of the differences and also what the status of Patdip is in HM. I have one follow up question for you and others. I understand the differences in portrayal, format, artistic objective etc as you stated ( at least understood partially ) but what causes the unique identify of HM style and CM style even in small interval of time. Are these technical, in how the gamakas are executed or just vocal enunciation that sound a bit foreign to the other side. Even the famous ones ( Yaman, Kalyani ), ( Bhoopali, Mohanam ) etc. there are enough differences in the feel of the ragas in the two systems.

Another aspect, possibly separate from the above, is that HM on an instrument ( sitar aside ) does not sound that different. Or at least the differences are not that stark. The Patdip link posted by Rsatchi is a case in point. But I do find the vocal renditions to be drastically different. May be there are multiple things involved here.

That is the crux of the matter for me for the topic at hand which is 'what is the proper way, artistically and aesthetically, to take a raga from HM that is not prevalent in CM and use it in a CM RTP'.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 13 Oct 2012, 22:49

vasanthakokilam wrote:
No! It is very clear in what he wrote. He is not characterizing himself as a rival to Sanjay, but as how his critique may be perceived by others. That is "words written as a rival" as opposed to "honest musical critique from another musician" and he has taken pains to say it is not the former but the latter.

There is some evidence of that very mis-conception in this thread Proof positive.

(I feel a bit compelled to set my own context that I am not taking sides with TMK, how my best friends are Sanjay fans, I have attended more Sanjay concerts than TMK etc. but I won't )

VK: I agree. I made the same general point in #48.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 Oct 2012, 23:01

vasanthakokilam wrote: That is the crux of the matter for me for the topic at hand which is 'what is the proper way, artistically and aesthetically, to take a raga from HM that is not prevalent in CM and use it in a CM RTP'.

Not trying to put words in your mouth, but I think it is important to note that the Patdeep (Or should I say Patadeepam) RTP was not the result of immaculate conception by an maverick creative musician. It seems that the "Carnatification" has been in process for a while by many musicians well-known and otherwise (check the links I had sent earlier) and the RTP was just a natural progression taking it to the next level.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 Oct 2012, 23:12

mahavishnu wrote:Let us all take a short musical break from this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbEqOra8 ... ture=g-u-u

Amazing to note that he has always been this good! Kurthas have gotten better though

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 Oct 2012, 23:16

arasi wrote: Taking a leaf from life, as VK has done before in this thread: there are some folks in this world who stay in the comparison mode all the time. To them, if we say, 'Oh, isn't she/he an agreeable woman/man!'--immediately, the reaction is: am I not agreeable? If someone else is appreciated for some quality or deed, they get piqued and think/exclaim: so. am I not that?

Seems to extend to ragas too! Because Sankarabharanam and Reethigowlai are getting piqued that Kosalam and Dharmavathy are sung elaborately

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Oct 2012, 02:03

sureshvv wrote: Not trying to put words in your mouth, but I think it is important to note that the Patdeep (Or should I say Patadeepam) RTP was not the result of immaculate conception by an maverick creative musician. It seems that the "Carnatification" has been in process for a while by many musicians well-known and otherwise (check the links I had sent earlier) and the RTP was just a natural progression taking it to the next level.

Yes, understood. Point well taken. Not sure if we can characterize that as 'a process by many musicians, for a while', but to the first level of approximation, I would not quibble about that.

I listened to the two links you sent. There is some similarity between those two and I guess we can say there is some nascent or adoloscent identity of CM Patdeep there. As CM does frequently, it takes some attractive HM ragas and put it to good use for the tail-enders. I see a process similar to what may have happened with Behag. Just as a coincidence, these two songs have a structure and vibe, somewhat similar to 'Iduthano thillai sthalam'.

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 14 Oct 2012, 04:30

I happen to come across the following in Sanjaysub blog, posted in Aug 2012...pretty interesting

Posted by Sanjay Subrahmanyan at 8:21 PM
Thursday, August 9, 2012
Interesting take on criticism

Here is an interesting take on criticism by the writer Bernard Malamud in an interview given to the Paris Review in 1975.

" I dislike particularly those critics who preach their aesthetic or ideological doctrines at you. What’s important to them is not what the writer has done but how it fits, or doesn’t fit, the thesis they want to develop."

This can also be seen in Carnatic music where the "knowledgeable" are always keen to try and impose their value systems on the musician. Sometimes the reaction to the music is so determined by the already existing assumption that has been made on how or what should be performed. Every generation of artists keep throwing up the odd rebel who shatter these existing notions and make the "knowledgeable" redefine their expectations. Then the new generation of artistes will suffer from not conforming to this recently formed set of values and so it goes on and on."

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 14 Oct 2012, 08:18

sureshvv wrote: but I think it is important to note that the Patdeep (Or should I say Patadeepam) RTP was not the result of immaculate conception by an maverick creative musician.

My north indian friends hate the north indan buffet available in the work cafeteria. Their main gripe is that- south indian cooks "sambarify" the taste. I do recall a meditative Patdeep by Nikhil Bannerjee posted by coolji.

BTW, many many CM musicians have been fascinated by HM - and have used those Hindustani ragas in - thukkadas slokas, ragamalika, meera bhajans, ashtapathis ... - Ahir Bhairav, Pahadi (which I think is a main raga in HM ), Madhuvanthi, Chandrakauns, ...

I think the modern trend is that value of thukkada (audience approval rating ) increases dramatically if thukkada is in a HM raga (as evidenced by popularity of abhangas) -instead of singing Innomum Orutharam in Begada in the thukkkada section. TVS started singing RTP in minor ragas Surya ... perhaps to fit the 2 hour 30 min time slot.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 14 Oct 2012, 09:41

tapestry for the beauty of it--for all the work that has gone into it. You can also look at it, as a frame containing that many colors and so many strands of yarn--and just that!

You said it . Here is somebody else saying exactly this . In the context of patdeep
http://www.mediafire.com/?zteitma6v367593

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 14 Oct 2012, 10:07

varsha wrote:
You said it . Here is somebody else saying exactly this . In the context of patdeep
http://www.mediafire.com/?zteitma6v367593

It is mostly in Kannada. Can you tell us who are talking / singing?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 14 Oct 2012, 10:27

Can you tell us who are talking / singing?

Shatavadhani Ganesh - Nagavalli Nagraj - From a brilliant program covering most of the major ragas.An outstanding effort.

It is mostly in Kannada.

Will wait for Asthana Vidwans here to translate ( Arasiji , or A2B .....)

MV · Post by MV » 14 Oct 2012, 11:16

Coming in late to this discussion ( as always:)) Putting aside all personal prejudices, I think it is a well-written article, an honest appraisal from one musician to another to progress the art than focus on the individual I would love to hear Sanjay's views on TMK-as both without doubt will be remembered in the annals of CM.

Enjoyed all the videos attached- Amjad Ali Khan, my fav, Sanjay in '90s with Gayatri on violin and SSI shestais from Mahavishnu. Priceless

) The Rasikas forum almost feels like family now

)

kunthalavarali · Post by **kunthalavarali** » 14 Oct 2012, 12:43

TMK's article, discussed in this forum, is a part of Sruthi magazine's coverage on Sanjay's music in the August and September issues.

alpajnani · Post by **alpajnani** » 15 Oct 2012, 00:07

varsha wrote:
You said it . Here is somebody else saying exactly this . In the context of patdeep
http://www.mediafire.com/?zteitma6v367593

varsha: This is a beautiful excerpt. Do you have any information on who is speaking and who is singing? Looks like this is a small part of a larger lecture/lecdem. Would greatly appreciate it if you could post the whole lecdem if you have access to it (and it is not covered by some copyright etc.) Thanks.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 15 Oct 2012, 10:45

Do you have any information on who is speaking and who is singing?

Shatavadhani Ganesh - Nagavalli Nagraj

Looks like this is a small part of a larger lecture/lecdem. Would greatly appreciate it if you could post the whole lecdem if you have access to it (and it is not covered by some copyright etc.)

I dont think it is copyrighted . Will try and put it up in a dedicated thread . Later in this week . And I am open to pull it down if someone tells me it is copyrighted . But I sincerely feel that it is an outstanding program that should reach a wider audience .

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 15 Oct 2012, 11:32

varsha wrote: Will wait for Asthana Vidwans here to translate ( Arasiji , or A2B .....)

Thought I'd take the initiative, even though I am not a Kannadiga.. Please anyone else add/correct me.

When you take the swara scale of Abheri and make a small exchange in the Nishadham, meaning that if you take the audava-sampoorna scale sgmpns, sndpmgrs of Abheri and remove the kaishiki nishadha (n2) and substitute it with a Kaakali Nishadha (n3) – or, in Hindustani terminology, if you change the Komal Nishadha to a Teevra Nishadha – it becomes the Hindustani Raga known as Patdeep, a raga that is becoming popular in Carnatic music and is suitable for singing in the afternoon, like Abheri.

The impact of simply changing the nishadha from Kaishiki to the Kaakali is so big that the two ragas are as unlike as the flowers Parijata and Champaka are. It is the sharpness of the Kaakali Nishadha that makes the Patdeep come to life.

So the aroma of the raga… ragas are not just to be listened to, one should feel it through all other sense organs and know how it would be to touch and feel it; if Abheri feels like Mysore silk, Patdeep feels like Bengal Silk; the difference between the two ragas is the difference between terricot and terriwool - it is a difference in texture; if we say Abheri is made using jaggery, Patdeep would be soaked in sweet sugar syrup, like Bengali sweets.

I would like to demonstrate how that tradition is brought about by that Nishadha, so please listen to the arohana-avarohana of that raga followed by a small composition, a Vachana by Akka Mahadevi. We have not heard a Vachana so far, so I would like you to listen to one.

(song)

When singing Patdeep, you must constantly return to the Kaakali Nishadha, otherwise the raga can easily slip into Bhimpalas or Abheri. So the kaakali nishadha needs to constantly emerge and say, “Here I am, here I am,” otherwise the individuality of the raga is lost.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Oct 2012, 18:34

Ranganayaki,
A big thanks! If no one came forth, it was going to be my feeble attempt at translating it.
Yours is spot on!
ShatAvadhAni Ganesh's analogies were just perfect, and the terrycot and terrywool ones amusing. From that,one can guess that it's not a recent event. Here was a scholar and enthusiast combined. Nagamani's voice is sweetness itself, as she sings Akkamma Devi's verse.

Did Sanjay sing an elaborate PaTdIp (an RTP?) in last year's season? I don't know. TMK did not start his season until the first of January because he wanted to take in the season after many years, he said. Did he hear one?
The one paTdIp Sanjay did sing and is there on Youtube for all to hear is from the previous season of the MArgazhi mahA Utsavam. It starts with a virutham: pAril uyarnda nilam in kharaharapriya.
The song itself, en thAi vAzhgenum mandira nAdamE is in PaTdIP. It's worth listening to.

One of my favorite viruthams of Sanjay in recent years is mAnADa mazhuvADa which he sang in one of his London concerts, sung in conventional kAmbOdi, with a very conventional(!) sindhu bhairavi in it. It is available on Youtube.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 15 Oct 2012, 22:28

Thanks for the feedback, Arasi..

I just found something of an inaccuracy in my attempt and I"ve edited it. Think it's important to mention: I misinterpreted "vachana" as lyrics and didn't feel very comfortable with it as it didn't make much sense, but looked up Akka Mahadevi and realized that her works are called "Vachanas".

May be this snippet is one in a series of discussions, or is an excerpt from a lengthier discussion about music and he wanted to include a Vachana, a form which had not been featured till then.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Oct 2012, 22:38

Ranganayaki,
I missed it.
Anyhow, AkkamAdEvi's work reminds me of ANDAL, MeerA--and hers, with bhakthi for SivA. A.K.Ramanujan has translated some beautifully. kUDala sangama dEva is her object of adoration and her mudhrA too, if you can call that!

smala · Post by **smala** » 15 Oct 2012, 23:24

en thAi vAzhgenum mandira nAdamE... is a there a link? a quick search on youtube didn't bring it up.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Oct 2012, 23:50

Thanks Ranganayaki. It was fun to listen to Sri. Shatavadhani Ganesh while following along with your translation. Nagavalli Nagraj sings very well.

A few things I picked up while reading up on Patdeep.

1. Another difference between Bhimplas and Patdeep is that Bhimplas is Ma centric where as Patdeep is Pa centric. Not sure if CM makes a big deal out of such things but HM seems to do that.

2. Karnatik.com is a place I go to check out Aro/Ava. Their info on Patdeep is wrong. They put it under Karaharapriya with N2.

3. While listening to that snippet by Nagavalli Nagraj, there was a fleeting resemblance to Madhuvanti at 3:13 'lAli thenna' ( my only reference for that being kaNDanAL mudalAy so it may be just me )

smala · Post by **smala** » 16 Oct 2012, 02:27

any luck on the youtube SS patdeep link - anybody?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Oct 2012, 02:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8YyS5HA1AY ( patdeep song part of it starts at around 5:40 but the concluding viruththam part is also in Patdeep I think. Somone please confirm). An added bonus, Sanjay's little quip at the end is hilarious. Made me feel like I am in Chennai.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Oct 2012, 03:40

Thanks VK.
I didn't realize this clip ends (the concert too), with just a few lines of the song, and Sanjay switches to surTTi to signal the end of the concert.
Yes, the last segment of the viruttam, veLLi malaip paraman, kaDal munai vITRirukkum kumari is in paTdIp.

You liked his quip, and I liked to watch the young man who was visibly moved by the line.
it was like old times, the way the audience seemed to be stirred by a sense of patriotic sense at the end, after listening to the song .

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 16 Oct 2012, 06:34

Thanks Ranganayaki.For a fine job .

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 16 Oct 2012, 10:38

vasanthakokilam wrote:
3. While listening to that snippet by Nagavalli Nagraj, there was a fleeting resemblance to Madhuvanti at 3:13 'lAli thenna' ( my only reference for that being kaNDanAL mudalAy so it may be just me )

That would be because they are first cousins - differing only in Ma.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 16 Oct 2012, 19:31

varsha wrote:Thanks Ranganayaki.For a fine job .

Second that.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Oct 2012, 20:28

Isn't Patdeep the raga introduced by Tansen and the curtains got fire when he sang it ( PaT(curtain) deep (on fire))?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Oct 2012, 20:47

I was going to play that clip once more, but stopped short. Not inside the house anymore, only in open spaces

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 16 Oct 2012, 21:19

E'-SWARA-010-Shri Sanjay Subramaniam--Jaya TV MMU 27-12-2010...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omayFWfClHM

The song pAril uyarnda nilam in kharaharapriya. commences at 35.41of the clip....

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Oct 2012, 21:36

Thx Vkailasam for the full concert..

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 17 Oct 2012, 10:46

Isn't Patdeep the raga introduced by Tansen and the curtains got fire when he sang it ( PaT(curtain) deep (on fire))?

Not heard this story before . A legend exists that he sung raga Deepak to light the lamps .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0mNrYx9j3E

Deep certainly does not mean fire . Should be Light .

Vasanthakokilam - Any way do not try singing Deepak in the belief that curtains may not catch fire . Legend has it that unless quenched by rain bearing raga Malhar , singing Deepak will leave something closer to a heart burn . Which Khurshid did memorably
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tNT_qIV5UM

smala · Post by **smala** » 17 Oct 2012, 23:38

Sri Venkatakailasam, do you have the link to Arar Asaippadar, the docu film on SS. Have seen it a while back, want to see it again.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 18 Oct 2012, 04:58

This one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYcZYosj ... sults_main

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 18 Oct 2012, 05:57

dIp is not light - it is a lamp.

smala · Post by **smala** » 18 Oct 2012, 06:01

PB, that is 3 plus min clip, not the entire docu.

I did remember something - all TEN segments of the SS docu in full here uploaded by Taladhoni, follow the first link to get the others.

Arar Aasaipadaar -1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8xuc_-2VL4&feature=plcp

Edited : 9 main segments, 10th, credits.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 18 Oct 2012, 06:17

Thanks!
Yes, it is in 10 parts. The last one is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZGiQtV- ... ure=relmfu !!

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 18 Oct 2012, 07:35

alphajnani
please check your mail

alpajnani · Post by **alpajnani** » 20 Oct 2012, 03:01

Varsha - THANKS!!!! Got them.

alpajnani

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 20 Oct 2012, 12:28

Thanks .

alpajnani · Post by **alpajnani** » 23 Oct 2012, 21:10

Varsha: I started listening to this and couldn't stop! Absolutely amazing (both from a content standpoint as well as from a language/diction standpoint). I hope the organizers decide to make it available either freely or commercially - quite valuable either way!!!
Thanks again!

classicallover · Post by **classicallover** » 23 Oct 2012, 23:58

The topic of discussion has digressed from the original one into a debate on raga Patdeep !!