Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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vasanthakokilam
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Srinath: Thanks for that excellent link. I just loved this statement.

"You can say to yourself, at least I can play one note as well as anyone in the history of the world. It's a good starting point. You've arrived, you are playing the violin for that one note."

( that is what I try at the Gym. One perfect push up! :) )

I am not sure I fully understand everything Fischer says but overall the message is one of hope, that it is possible to teach someone to make a great tonal sound.

Regarding what he says about hearing beats when two semi-tone apart notes are played, my first thought was, of course! We have done that experiment in physics labs with tuning forks. But alas, I just tried it with the tampura set to C and I played C# on the flute. I can hear they are not in tune, but I could not hear the pulsing beats. May be this combination is not good for that. I then tried by recording a flute sound at C and then played C# against it and I could hear the beats. But I am still bummed about the tampura sound. If I can train my ears to hear the beats, that is a pretty deterministic way to make those minor adjustments so the beats disappear. The 'fretlessness' equivalent for the flute are the mouth position and the partially opened holes!! ;) It is such a precarious balance that it is amazing that good flutists can keep that all together in fast playing while doing all the machinations for the raga specific gamakas, some of which does involve rotating the flute. ( so I hear, I can't do that well )

BTW, that noticeable divergence between violin and flute note production, how much of a deviation do you hear? Just curious. My ears can not pick up too minute ones, but on a karvai if they diverge i may be able to hear it.

One thing I often wondered about is this. After a vocalist finishes an alapana, when a good violinist starts his/her turn, there is something better about it in terms of raga precision. Not that the vocalist was out of tune necessarily, but with voice ( in the CM context ) there is an overall smearing kind of quality to it. It is sort of like looking at a non-HD picture and then an HD picture. ( that will be grossly overstating the difference if taken literally but hope you sense what I mean. It is not about correctness but about brightness?).

Nick H
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by Nick H »

Yes, the violin lesson was fascinating, even to a complete non player.

If you have an android phone, look at the app Tunable. it shows you not only how far off your note is, but how it wavers, as a graph line. You might find it useful in your researches.

arasi
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by arasi »

VK,
Brightness and clarity--the same thing, right?
True, a good violinist can sometimes play a few phrases after a grand AlApana, inspired by the singing, and re-usher the rAgA in his turn, and somehow the clarity of it makes such an impression that what the voice created so well recedes to the background. There are times of course, when such an AlApana is followed by an uninspired, mediocre violinist and the AlApana either stays with you or makes you regret that the return could have been better!

The human voice rules in the end, when it starts singing the song after that. That is, if it can tune into the sAhitya, and voice the words feelingly. "appaDiyE pADugiRa mAdiri irundadu sir!" one may exclaim about an excellent violinist, but it only 'sounds like singing' and does not really sing the words!

SrinathK
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by SrinathK »

I want to know if there's an app out there where we can set our own frequencies to the 12 tone scale as equal temperament and our music don't go well together.

@vk I'm not sure exactly how much they differ but they do vary. The dubious nature of an amateur's violin intonation notwithstanding, I want to know if flutes are tuned to equal temperament. I have begun to feel that even veenas and mandolins are also being tuned close to ET and that in turn has problems aligning to the tambura.

So for better accuracy I recommend the 22shruti.com website. I should add that gamakas have allowed us to explore many more than even those 22 intervals now, however there are certain principles of acoustic vibrations that can't be ignored. Hence the r1 of saaveri or the m2 of varali are never played without gamakas otherwise they would sound out of character. The perception of pitch also varies in oscillating notes and studies seem to indicate that the ear perceives the mean center of the pitch as a reference point.

You can play 2 srutis for the same note together and hear dissonance in intervals as small as 81/80. The shrutis are so close their intervals can be exceeded by a typical vibrato. When 2 notes are played together it is possible to hear beats even when the difference is as small as 1 cent.

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

Dear SrinathK,
YOUR points are correct & well taken. However the fact is the lapses of Carnatic Vocalists except MSS & MMMI are not subtle but quite obvious. I feel its because of not being able to be in tune with the Thambura & its complex notes. It is well known that MSS even in her seventies has said she did Aharasadhaham for close to 4 hours/day & both MMI & MSS STARTING very early in their lives PRACTISED with their thamburas till their voices & the thambura were indistnguishable. It is a phenomenon of RESONANCE as well the plasticity of the human brain that enabled them to reach this level of perfection and of course their "Feedback System"- by this I mean the ability to correct mistakes within hundredth of a second-thats what it appears to take so no one can detect the errors- was what made them perfect.
Incidentally in terms of LAYAM the phenomenon of "Sadaipathu" -the lag between the actual beating of say the mridangam & the actual beat of the thalam-is what appears to make Vellore Ramabhadran PERFECT to listen to; Evem PMI appears to have said his playing in this regard was perfect & superior to any one else he had heard......It would be interesting to discuss these aspects in greater depth but this forum is eminently unsuitable in my opinion unfortunately. VKV

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by vasanthakokilam »

but this forum is eminently unsuitable in my opinion unfortunately. VKV
I think you will find quite a few people here that can match your expectations in terms of such technical sophistication and more. Please go ahead. Thanks.

SrinathK
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by SrinathK »

Dear vkv, we are all ears. :)

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

Dear Srinathk & V,
As its difficult for me to write in detail here I will write in word document & email it to both of you so we can be more efficient about it. The drawback is strictly mine. VKV It will take a few days.

mahavishnu
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by mahavishnu »

VKV sir, When you are done with the word document, perhaps you could paste it here as well. It would be of benefit and interest to may of us that have been following this discussion.

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

I will be happy to paste it here. How do you do it? Don't know how! VKV.... YOU can write me if you wish to my email: vkv@juno.com THANKS.

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

[quote="harimau"]It is well-known that Hindusthani musicians think that Carnatic music is full of apaswarams. They are known to have called it besur sangeeth.

A lot of valid points have been made by many so far. The fact is barring a very few HM artistes such as Pt Ravishankar, most others' exposure to CM is highly limited. This does not mean that their surface-level perceptions are unjustified/baseless. CM has depth but in order to raise to national/international levels, a system must have both surface appeal and in-depth USP. From day one, a student is taught to focus on the latter most times and those who focus on the former do it at the cost of the latter. In other words, only the rare few have got the balance right in CM and they are rightly ahead of the pack in the national/international scene. (Of course there are several who may hold that it's easier to conquer non-Indians than north-Indians!)

Just to put things in perspective, I'll share some of my discussions with various HM artistes' on this (some of whom, I can't name).

1. Pt Ravishankar pleasantly surprised me with his in-depth analysis of CM legends incl. ARI, MVI, GNB, SSI, Brinda and others. "I got sold to CM only because of Veena Dhanammal," he said. His points were generally spot-on, even from a strictly objective Carnatic point of view.

2. Most other HM artistes generally place stress on 'swara-shuddham' than 'shruti-shuddham' (a point I expanded in my Academy lec-dem in 2012). They typically identify with Dr BMK's command over the former as well as his overall delivery.

3. They do have a real issue with the tonal production and delivery of almost all CM vocalists they have heard except probably MSS (but most have not heard Madurai Mani Iyer, Brindamma etc). A few of them actually wondered how vocalists who could not align to shruti or hold a 'Sa' steadily could be called 'top' in the south.

4. For the same reasons purity in delivery and feeling of space, they hold CM instrumentalists like Flute Mali sir, Shri TNK/ Shri MSG in high regard.

5. They are awed by CM's solidity, organised approach and intellect though they feel there is 'less heart' in our music. In a panel discussion in Ahmedabad, tabla exponent Pt Bikram Ghosh (who also trained in mrdangam) threw an open question which set me thinking: "In HM, we are taught the 'emotional' aspect of every rhythmic phrase or tala but in CM, I was only taught the technique and math". Never one to sell CM short, I said "Of course the top percussionists bring a lot of emotion into every syllable they play!" He agreed but maintained that in HM it was emphasized as an intrinsic aspect from day one. "We are taught to 'feel' the talas."

Will share a few more in my next.

arasi
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by arasi »

Ravikiran,
Thanks for taking an active part in the discussions. "From the horse's mouth" sounds shallow. "From your unique perspective" is better. What some of us can only speculate over (and arrive at and arrive at no conclusion sometimes), become revelations when you say it--with your music, immense experience, exposure and exchanges with other artistes.

Rasikas.org is blessed, indeed...

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by vasanthakokilam »

"In HM, we are taught the 'emotional' aspect of every rhythmic phrase or tala but in CM, I was only taught the technique and math". Never one to sell CM short, I said "Of course the top percussionists bring a lot of emotion into every syllable they play!" He agreed but maintained that in HM it was emphasized as an intrinsic aspect from day one. "We are taught to 'feel' the talas."
CM side's response will be, 'True about the math, but that is only a beginning. Later comes the whole concept of 'playing to the song' rather than 'playing to the beat' which is where playing with emotion comes in" etc. Meaning, once they become professionals, a good one at that, there is no difference wrt to the emotional side though the two artists started off differently.

But if I make an attempt to look deeper into what Pt Bikram Ghosh says, may be in HM the student is vetted at the beginning itself to see if they have the emotional temperament of an artist, rather than a mathematical and analytical person who responds very well to learning the 'finger and hand' techniques. Meaning, since they start off right at the beginning with such emotional stuff, a person like me ( who skews more on the latter side ) would not even relate to what the guru is talking about about the emotional side of a beat etc. and would last just a week! But a more artistic brain would align well with such teachings.

So, though it may not matter much at the professional level, HM may weed out the non-artistic types much earlier.

To some extent, the same phenomenon may apply on the melody side as well.

Just a wild speculation. But even if there is only a bit of truth in this, it is an angle to peer into the whole CM-HM situation.

mahavishnu
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by mahavishnu »

Very interesting insights, Sri Ravikiran. Thank you for joining this discussion!

As VK says, perhaps the difference is in the approach to pedagogy where we separate kanakku-vazhakku from the bhavam. But all good percussionists eventually integrate the two.

Despite that, most tabla players perform for the tala/beat; while most mridangists (at least the good ones) play for the song/music. There is some irony to that.

I am reminded of a conversation I once had with the legendary jazz drummer/tabla player Trilok Gurtu. He said (paraphrasing): " You Carnatic types get PhDs, become doctors, analyze music, write dissertations about music. I just play music because that is the only thing I know how to do".

I am equally fascinated by the depth of understanding of the CM system by Pt Ravi Shankar.

Rsachi
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by Rsachi »

Folks,
Here is an active Hindustani singer from Benares, Pandit Chhannulal Mishra, singing vAtApiganapatiM BhajEhaM, which he says he learnt while visiting Madras:
Image

Click the image to play.

uday_shankar
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by uday_shankar »

Rsachi, thanks for sharing that delightful and cute video. Loved it. I have heard the audio earlier. The purity of the notes is instantly evident. Even after hours, the notes of Hamsadhwani ring in my ears. Again, the 2.5 kattai shruti...sigh...I wish more CM vocalists sang at higher shrutis. Right at the outset Shri Mishra shows the superior tone production when he hits the mel Sa so perfectly. I rarely get that fulfilling feeling from the mel Sa of Carnatic vocalists. There's something in the voice.

Rsachi
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by Rsachi »

Yes Uday!
For me Panditji is special. He is a wonderful communicator (talks a lot too during his programmes). He impressed Amitabh Bachchan so much AB flew to Benares to participate in an album release for him.
He sings something wonderful in the link below about Shiva and says things also beautiful about Benares too:
http://youtu.be/rTqnAwwtajs

varsha
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by varsha »

http://www.mediafire.com/?6q60sgao58zti8l
Channulal in his heyday
lovely miya malhar

uday_shankar
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by uday_shankar »

uday_shankar wrote:Again, the 2.5 kattai shruti...sigh...
Prof SRJ sings at this pitch too !Check out this delightful rendition of Niravathi(u?) Sukhada...with super duper accompanists too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsGQzL3d2AM
The internet is full of gems.

munirao2001
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by munirao2001 »

I differ with the view of Maestro Bikram Ghosh that the teaching of mridangam in CM is based only on the technique and kanakku vyavaharams. The students are advised to fully understand the gayaka padhathi, listen to all the maestros and their expositions of all the vaggeyakaras. This listening helps best understanding and empathy with the performing artists in their manodharma based music. The deep realization of the bhava content results in planning the laya swarams best suited to the kalapramana and the raga swarams of the performer. Listening to the Great Maestros will clearly demonstrate, what I am conveying in words.

munirao2001

munirao2001
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by munirao2001 »

Chitraveena Ravikiran has said
Pt Ravishankar pleasantly surprised me with his in-depth analysis of CM.


Pt Ravishankar made several visits to Madras/Chennai and also stayed for some time to understand the intricacies of CM. He did attend weekly chamber music concerts of Veena Dhanammal. While serving AIR, he interacted with many great maestros serving AIR, like GNB, SB,Kama shastri, Emani Shankara Shastri, Sandhyavandanam Srinivasa Rao and Doreswamy Iyyengar. He was the only HM Great Maestro to deeply understand and appreciate CM and introduced many ragas of CM to HM pan India rasikas. He tried and succeeded in adopting gamakams of CM, a bridge between meand of HM and gamakam of CM in his unique style of Sitar playing.

Historically, North, East and to an extent West India had very turbulent times with many wars-intra States and out side States(foreign invaders). People became aggressive and violent and suffered for long. They badly needed peace and romance. The khayal development in HM having taken place during such time, with full of meditative and romantic moods, relegating the dominant bhakthi bhav of Dhrupad. Vilambit, slow pace than even athi vilambam of CM, was most appealing to the people in great strife. With loss of spouses and separation lead to appreciation of Thumris of madhyha laya. They can not appreciate CM,with rigid rules of grammar and vibrant and with intricate swara kalpanas and laya kari.

CM region enjoyed peace, in comparison with HM region. They appreciated vilamba-madhyama-dhruta based CM music, pregnant with Bhakthi rasa. The compositions on romance, did not receive universal appeal. Modern cutcheri paddhathi, post Ariyakudi, starting with primacy for madhya laya, has now ended up with duritham primacy and no visradhi, an important and forgotten aspect of CM. In the pursuit of Style, delivery aspect of CM has greatly suffered. Idolization has lead to tolerance of idiosyncrasies and deficiency in voice culture-particularly akara perfection and usage. Combining with the other deficiencies, CM vocalists, with the exception of very few Great Maestros, contributed to the total aversion of HM rasikas to CM. Corrective action and providing more listening opportunities and Lecture demonstrations on and of CM to the HM Ustads/Pandits and HM rasikas can lead to better appreciation and support for CM in the HM regions

munirao2001

harimau
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by harimau »

So far, what we have got is digressions and in my opinion irrelevant comments.

Just to prove that I am open to listening to Hindusthani Sangeeth, I went to Kalakshetra where Smt Manjusha Patil was expounding on that genre.

There was the usual harmonium accompaniment which, having fixed positions for its keys, was producing the swarasthanams of whatever the singer was singing.

Without debating the matter further, I shall grant that Smt Patil was landing squarely on those swarams. But when she was drawling out from one swaram to the next, what is that called? All those intermediate frequencies: were they apaswarams or were they part of the melody? If it is melody and not apaswaram, then when a Carnatic musician moves from one note to the next -- and I shall grant that it is at a faster clip -- and corrects his swarasthanam after hovering near the correct note, why is that an apaswaram?

If the Carnatic musician does not land precisely on the rishabham that the Hindusthani musician expects (R1, R2 or R3) when the Carnatic musician is singing Saveri, is that an apaswaram?

If someone like Trilok Gurtu were to tell me that he only knows and plays music whereas Carnatic musicians analyze it to death, I would point out that as far as drumming is concerned, the best tabalchi is no match for a medium-grade mridangist in playing percussion and if the tabalchis do not want to progress beyond the sixth grade, it is their intellectual limitation that is holding them back. Instead you fellows are receiving this as Moses would have received the Ten Commandments, as a revelation from God!

Instead of saying that he has done an analysis with oscilloscopes, cacm should tell us whether he took the same krithis sung by several different persons and found their swarasthanams to be incorrect. And he should tell us if he was looking at R1, R2, R3, etc., or he made allowances for the fact that Saveri rishabham does not fall into these fixed positions. cacm should also tell us if MMI, MSS and MSG were perfect every time and also if he thinks persons like D K Pattammal were wrong most of the time. After all, he is the one making the claim that only MMI, MSS and MSG were perfect. How about Voleti or Nedunuri? T N Rajarathnam?

As to Ravikiran's statements, he can tell us what Ravi Shankar's thoughts were on Carnatic music without necessarily naming the musicians he may have criticized. Then we would gain some enlightenment as to what is wrong with Carnatic music as seen by a professional Hindusthani musician.

In an article about Brindamma that I read somewhere, it said that Abdul Karim Khan went about saying Carnatic music is besur sangeeth and only when Brinda as a young girl identified in a rapid-fire fashion the swarams employed by him when he was doing an aalaap in akaaram mode, he conceded that South Indian musicians knew their swarams!

That also proves that Hindusthani musicians were criticizing Carnatic music and musicians even in the 1930s when there were many more stalwarts in their prime singing days.

Let me conclude by saying that nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

cacm wrote:HARIMAU:
Instead of saying that he has done an analysis with oscilloscopes, cacm should tell us whether he took the same krithis sung by several different persons and found their swarasthanams to be incorrect. And he should tell us if he was looking at R1, R2, R3, etc., or he made allowances for the fact that Saveri rishabham does not fall into these fixed positions. cacm should also tell us if MMI, MSS and MSG were perfect every time and also if he thinks persons like D K Pattammal were wrong most of the time. After all, he is the one making the claim that only MMI, MSS and MSG were perfect. How about Voleti or Nedunuri? T N Rajarathnam?
Dear Harimau,
I have in addition to osilloscope analysis ACTUALLY have played MMI & MALI as well as LGJ their recordings, my experimental analyses as well as the "looking at R1,R2,R3" to quote Harimau & made allowances Saveri rishabam does not fail into thesefixed position". I have felt things were decided arbitrarily and using crutches like TRADITION etc or different schools etc.
This is why I am trying to ANALYSE MUSIC esp. Carnatic Music on an OBJECTIVE totally on a total system basis. I am separately mailing you my proposed approach & would like your participation, criticisms, as well as suggestions to move this further.
Reg DKP, TNR, NEDANURI etc I LIKE ASPECTS of their music VERY MUCH. THEIR strengths are in different areas; After all Carnatic Music is very vast & complex with so many different areas. I restrict myself to those I have discussed the matters I write about. I was so overawed by TNR I CANNOT IMAGINE DISCUSSING THESE MATTERS WITH HIM. I have met him several times in concerts & outside. REG DKP, I met her when I was 13 as my mother was very close to her. Same situation like TNR in my situation. REG Nedanuri I have interacted a lot with him as I was very keen on his coming to USA in seventies- He was the FIRST CHOICE as I had decided to sponsor a Vocalist- & the interactions could not reach the comfort level needed for me.
It took me 8 years to develop enough guts to even say HELLO to MMI & MALI but I found them VERY OPEN as well as VERY CRITICAL in evaluationg their own efforts. Consequently Along with my buddy Late S.S.Venkataraman sometime N.V.Subramanian (Sasraswathi- my class mate) we have visited MMI to discuss these and allied subjects. About MSS tho' like DKP my mother knew her verIy well (Sankaracharyar connection etc) I actually got to know her well only after the '66 USA UN TOUR & have discussed these subjects at great length.......PERFECTION IS IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS ONE CAN DEFINE WHAT IT IS. That what I am trying to chase. An impossible dream maybe but worth trying?
PL READ MY EMAIL & CONTRIBUTE. THANKS
That also proves that Hindusthani musicians were criticizing Carnatic music and musicians even in the 1930s when there were many more stalwarts in their prime singing days.......
TRUE as well as MOSTLY their criticism also was TRUE. VKV

SrinathK
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by SrinathK »

Dear harimau,

Your 1st para -- As far as Hindustani music goes, the ET harmonium has all the intervals out of tune w.r.t the tanpura so out goes the greatly toutled "suswara" concept there itself. Either there should be a harmonium or a tanpura, but not both -- ET and tanpura do not align. And what about meends and akhaaras I had to adjust to those slow meends and those akharas -- while I'm ok with that now, there's nothing in Carnatic music that departs so explicitly allowing the ear to perceive the full scope of the no-man's land of dissonance between 2 su-swaras. So if that is acceptable as "su-swara" then any gamaka is also "su-swara" and nothing less. For one western ears cannot tolerate such slow glissandos and to them it is "mewing". So context matters...

Criticism of "intellectual music" -- a disguised amount of jealously by any chance? I knew pair of acquaintances who made subtle insults against my music tastes. They were fond of saying to me that whenever they hear the name of this raaga and that taala, they get put off by Indian music and can't listen to it anymore...What would they say if they had to read a score? Probably a criticism like "What sort of music is this where they have to read code?"

Were our vidwans guilty of having created this notion? The answer is Yes, but also No. In all genres of music, there have always been those who were renowned for their standards and below them there are always plenty of not so good or outright bad performers. There was also plenty of bad music composed in the time of Mozart as today. Time however, filters out only the best of it's kind so in searching through older music, one finds most wonderful music because only the best music of the old days stands the test of time.

But in Carnatic music, you could get away with dubious intonation more often than not and many many vocalists (and instrumentalists, though comparatively much lesser) indeed went out of tune for the most part and the causes were not always age and health. Identifying the correct swara is easy but singing / playing it tune every time isn't. So there is a significant bit of fact in the statement of singing without shruti.

Abuse of laya at the cost of all other musical aspects ? In several cases, yes. Using technology as a crutch for bad singing / playing habits? Yes.

Poor Recording quality and acoustics / sound balance of live concerts. VERY often -- Ok. I do understand that in many free recordings, there was absolutely no facility and it was an achievement to have obtained at least so much for posterity. Also by the time recordings became popular, most of the CM giants of the time were past their prime and that does not help matters.

But coming to acoustics and sound balance, I see the tanpura getting a mic in many Hindustani concerts. Do we get such niceties even in today's CM concerts?

Can an ET tuned flute or veena be comparable to a fretless violin? It can't. But in this context, it must be pointed out that the issue of different musicians using slightly different positions for the same notes is well noted in ALL systems of music including HM and WCM -- one can see the 22 shruti site or violinist.com for some examples. In WM, a fact is that the same violinist uses different notes when playing in tandem with the piano (ET) or while playing solo (closer to JI or PT) or with winds or strings -- entire orchestras have been affected by this! In playing chords on fret-less instruments like the violin there has always been debate as to which intervals are to be played as per just intonation and which to be played as per ET or even sharper. In HM also the sharps and the flats have always varied across vocalists and styles, and only the objective lens of physics and the inherent harmonic relationships such as the perfect 3rd, 4th and 5th could settle the positions of the old 22 shrutis.

Even if you take MS amma (the most technically perfect vocalist in CM to me along every parameter) as an example -- listen to her Raama Raama Guna seema in Simhendramadhyamam in the Carnegie hall album. The prathi madhyamam is at it's usual high position whenever it is gamaka-allied to the panchamam, but there is a place in the pallavi where they hover on a plain M2 (at "Abhiraama") and it is very noticeably lower (although now it is at its correct plain note interval). So even among the same singer, depending on the presence and type of gamaka a note can vary. So that expressive intonation. Again there are stylistic differences between musicians. For e.g. MMI and TNK used a substantial amount of plain notes in their renditions while at the other end LGJ could be called a gamaka maximalist as he had the greatest gamaka palette and could vary it to any extent to serve any need and accompany anyone.

I do not think the issue of tone is irrelevant to this discussion. The reason why HM seems to give you an electric feeling on the opening notes is because of the richness and variety of tone. Between any two players playing the same note or phrase, the one with better tone always sounds much more emotional and "su-swar". Is the development and practice of tone, acoustics, sound production, etc... in CM truly at world class level? Barring the very topmost, I'd say not, but it's by no means doom and gloom.

Our teaching standards. How many teachers teach laya exercises and to what extent do teachers concentrate on tone while teaching CM to the average student ? Ans: A needle in a haystack... There lies the most immediately perceptible difference between the standards of HM vs. CM. TONE. It is this that makes more difference than any other objective factor regarding impressions of CM as unpleasant.

Has this same problem been faced by other musical genres? YES. For example, it was said that no violinist played in tune until certain late 19th and 20th century geniuses. Do other musical genres also have debatable intonation -- go listen to an opera singer in full vibrato.

Cultural prejudices and complexes and egos -- North vs. the south? Definitely one of the primary causes.

Our laya system? Incomparable. CM can go to any rhythm, any aesthetic, any emotion, any level of complexity. Appreciation of laya? Well I was drawn to appreciate CM laya only by it's aesthetic effect first. The maths came a long long time later. But there is much to be done to help students and rasikas appreciate the rhythmic system of CM. For one, when did someone even name the parts of a tani in a concert or point out which nadai was being played. A little explanation would go a very long way here.

Finally the biggest issue -- How many people are even remotely willing to get their ears trained to CM ragas? Very very few...the predominant reaction among the unaccustomed ears is one of ridicule with zero open-mindedness to appreciate and it's why I don't ever play it on my phone in public. Human prejudice is the hardest barrier to overcome and when one has made up their mind not to like CM there's little anyone can do. But even those people had to admit that Lalgudi's Mohana Kalyani Thillana recording was spectacular.

From my experience I'd say the greatest merit of CM is that it is relatively easy for a CM trained ear to adapt and appreciate many different styles and genres of music -- I'm speaking for myself, but I had no trouble with this and I am convinced it is due to my CM upbringing. Judging by most opinions of CM I have heard, I do not think the reverse is equally true. We can sit between composition and improvisation, between simple and complex, between plain note and gamakas and we can lean in any direction we want.

So fundamentally there is nothing inferior in our CM system at all -- it is a case of not having exploited or projected it's best potential. Finally, in a discussion of the merits of various music systems, one has to see how much of the truth is based on proven fact that can be clearly demonstrated and how much is simply a matter of personal bias, ego or even plain old envy. Human beings are after all, human!

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by varsha »

Pt Ravishankar pleasantly surprised me with his in-depth analysis of CM legends incl. ARI, MVI, GNB, SSI, Brinda and others. "I got sold to CM only because of Veena Dhanammal," he said
Never showed up in his music though . :|
Knowing /appreciating Dhyanammal / Brinda must have ben fashionable from his times itself . Cannot think of anything more than his contribution of sawaljawabs to prove that his methods were the exactly opposite.
Sawal jawabs that have seeped into kirana vocal music too.Oh ! The tyranny of the drums .!!!
Anyway , looking for brinda-like hm- experience in kalakshetra is like looking for a handsewn(by grand ma) baby mattress in RadhaSilk Emporium .
This effort by another migrant hailing from Thanjavur is more like it .
There is some magic in that stream of water.Indeed.
https://archive.org/details/BasavarajRa ... yaKalyan01

harimau
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by harimau »

Everybody is talking about the tambura not being heard in Carnatic concerts,

At the Hindusthani concert at Kalakshetra, there were two tamburas, one Radel electronic tambura and an iPod playing sruthi. After the concert, when the floor was opened to questions, someone asked what she was doing with four different instruments for sruthi. The singer replied she used them to search for and locate 'Sa'.

I am sure this will be touted as an example of sruthi suddham.

In that case, T M Krishna is three-fourths of the way along perfect sruthi, as he usually has two tamburas and an iPod playing the sruthi. If he brings a Radel, that would make it perfect!

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by Nick H »

harimau wrote:...The singer replied she used them to search for and locate 'Sa'.
In which case all those strings and electronics could be replaced by someone puffing on a pitch pipe. Or, dispense with that person too, and just have the vocalist pause to blow it from time to time.

tiruppugazh
Posts: 105
Joined: 11 Jul 2010, 21:27

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by tiruppugazh »

Those were the days when musicians sang with a single manual tambura. Wonder if there are any musicians who still do that these days

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by varsha »

Raghav Menons book on Kumar Gandharva deals with the subject of KGs use of three tanpuras in some details.
Here are a few other pointers
http://lakshmisreeram.com/blog/

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Raghav Menons book on Kumar Gandharva deals with the subject of KGs use of three tanpuras in some details.
Kumar ji was gracious enough to share some of his insights with me during a festival in Varanasi where both of us were performing. He told me that it is not the number of tanpuras but how well in sync they are.

Which reminds me of an amazing fact. My grandfather, Gotuvadyam Narayana Iyengar and Harikeshanallur Muttiah Bhagavatar were colleagues in the Mysore Court and had regular musical interactions (the latter learnt to play the instrument a bit from my grandfather and taught him several of his compositions). My grandmother used to recall about the two tanpuras in HMB's house, which had been named Rama-Lakshmana. They'd be kept in opposite ends of his music room but would be so well tuned that if he played one, the other would resonate...

I have seen just one tanpura used by SSI, Brindamma, KVN sir but they'd personally tune it so beautifully. So would many of the AIR tanpura artistes like Shri Kulikkarai Vishwalingam, Tiruvarur Sethuraman, Shri PSN etc. Brindamma and my father have both elaborated on how to use the thinnest possible thread for the jeeva as opposed to common practice.

It's quite therapeutic to wake up around 3 or 4 am and perfectly tune even a mildly recalcitrant tanpura...

cacm
Posts: 2212
Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

i thank Ravi Kiran for taking the time to share some of his enormous knowledge of the history as well as the subject matter. As a layman let me write about a few things I can relate to:
1) TWO THAMBURAS RESONATING WITH EACH OTHER: This resonance phenomenon usually referred to as the SONOMETER Experiment (familiar to most Physics students in Madras of at least my days) is done with two Tuning forks of a SPECIFIC FREQUENCY like 256 cycles( C--) with small paper pieces which will vibrate when the frequencies are very close to each other and the Power Spectrum MATCH FOR BOTH TUNING FORKS-dont want to belabour details of Expt which most will know-. POWER SPECTRUM ( DISTRIBUTION OF OTHER FREQUENCIES) DETAILS DICTATE whether this phenomenon will occur.
THE BRAIN-VOICE Servo loop mechanisms- too detailed to go over here- explains the Complexities as well as the perfection reached by greats like MMI & MSS.
In the case of MMI (asRavi K has observed about Harikesanallur-MMI'S GURU) ONE of the practices involved TWO thamburas & his voice which had to match perfectly under varying conditions.I have observed this perfection in his M.A. CONCERTS where Leading Musicians on the stage were mesmerized & spell bound WHEN they were within the range of his original voice. Different days?!
MSS as a very young girl used to play a game in which FOUR tuned thamburas(tuned to her voice) in four corners of the room were arbitrarily played or turned off & she had to run around the room as well as match the sounds perfectly!
In the case of KVN I had arranged a concert of his (& Palghat Raghu-NO VIOLIN) at Syracuse U in the sixties & I had to play Thambura in addition to being master of ceremonies. KVN tuned it for close to an hour & in my debut as Thambura artist-first & last time in my life- if the thambura angle deviated by more than half a degree-KVN could not allow that deviation he felt that the frequencies he could hear were different!..its close to the head angle sensors used in mid air collision for military aircraft use!
Incidentally I was born in Devakkottai a few houses from which the immortal Devakkottai Narayana Iyengar lived and may be thats why I can at least APPRECIATE the GENIUS OF RAVIKIRAN.....VKV

drmnarmadha96
Posts: 42
Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 07:22

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by drmnarmadha96 »

Dear all,

Greetings and Namashkar from me...Narmadha.

My humble thoughts on this discussion.

Hailing from the genre of the Parur MSG Indian Violin Musical heritage ;pioneers in performing both Hindustani and Karnatak music concerts in equal command, mastery and versatility ,and me ,like my legendary father MSG Guruji ,performing in both Hindustani and Karnatic (owing my allegiance to my Gurus who imparted simultaneous training in both classical systems from my 4th year onwards in vocal and violin )which is a rare Saubhagya, will like to stress that it is important to have a broad minded approach to the performance and also to respect and appreciate both the styles of Indian Music.

Ultimately the two eyes of Bharat Mata represent the two most important styles Karnatak and Hindustani in terms of Bhava : Raaga & Taala.

Comparing two classical systems, as my father legendary violinist MSG Guruji used to say, is just superfluous: rather futile.

Bharat Ratna MS Amma performed Hindi Bhajans and Shri Madurai Mani Iyer sang the English notes as part of the classical concerts.
MSG Guruji immortalised the Hindustani Sindubhairavi Tarana in his classical solo violin concerts.

For them, it was their sheer love and passion for the music beyond all boundaries.

I would like to relate an interesting incident here.
When me and my father performed a Hindustani Violin Duet concert in Dharwad some years ago for the birthday function of Vidushi Gangubai Hangal she shared a secret with us that she learnt many Karnatak compositions including Tyagaraja's Nenaruncinanu and simultaneously Khayals from the Kirana Gharana right from her young age and this wonderful vision of music really helped her perform in such virtuosity.

Every student of music can usefully enrich knowledge by absorbing the quintessence of each style undertaking a musical voyage.
Take food, fabric, places; everything has an intrinsic charm and is enticing too.

Music being the ultimate of tonal expressions presents itself in various facets.Understanding the tonal beauties of both the manodharmic styles, I am sure that every performance gains added sound contours.

Amidst the Trinity, Muthusamy Dikshitar composed in many of the famous North Indian Ragas like Ramkali , Dvijavanti... He skillfully adapted the slow tempo of the Dhrupad compositions and so on.
These are proof positives that Indian Music is an ocean and turning every pebble of knowledge is challenging enough to be achieved in a life time.
So it will be wonderful to understand every musical nuance of the note.

Tyagaraja says: ‘Sa ri ga ma pa da ni..vara sapta svara’.

Tanna Miya (Tansen) says Svara is magical and it is infinite. ‘Svar tho hai ye sansar’ ( svara is the universe).

Since time flies and that India has a unique cultural heritage, why not spend musical time on discovering the mystics of the Sapta Svaras which governs the universe and try to become a listener and a performer in both styles.

Regards to all,

Musically

Dr.M.Narmadha

cacm
Posts: 2212
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

I thank Dr.M.Narmadha for jioning & sharing her expertise on C.M. & H.M. with us. Like her G.father Parur Sundaram Iyer & father M.S.G. TODAY she is the ONE GENUINE MUSICIAN who TRULY is BOTH a C.M. & H.M. SPECIALIST, SCHOLAR, AS WELL AS EXCELLENT PERFORMER whose DEMO/CONCERTS in addition to regular concerts are Musically of the highest order as well as educational(at least to me).
Its a pity that SOLOS are apparently no longer favoured by the organisers today who like most of the so called music critics show an appaling level of ignorance. Its due to visionaray Sabha Secretaries like Sethuraman of Perambur Sangeetha Sabha we today have recordings of MALI, Sambasiva Iyer and several other GIANTS in their instruments. We can get educated & enlightened by today's soloists who I contend are as GOOD of those of yester years....
Incidentally inspired by Sethuraman of Perambur Sangeetha Sabha I had managed to arrange a

cacm
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Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

I thank Dr.M.Narmadha for joIning & sharing her expertise on C.M. & H.M. with us. Like her G.father Parur Sundaram Iyer & father M.S.G. TODAY she is the ONE GENUINE MUSICIAN who TRULY is BOTH a C.M. & H.M. SPECIALIST, SCHOLAR, AS WELL AS EXCELLENT PERFORMER whose DEMO/CONCERTS in addition to regular concerts are Musically of the highest order as well as educational(at least to me).
Its a pity that SOLOS are apparently no longer favoured by the organisers today who like most of the so called music critics show an appaling level of ignorance. Its due to visionaray Sabha Secretaries like Sethuraman of Perambur Sangeetha Sabha we today have recordings of MALI, Sambasiva Iyer and several other GIANTS in their instruments. We can get educated & enlightened by today's soloists who I contend are as GOOD of those of yester years....
Incidentally inspired by Sethuraman of Perambur Sangeetha Sabha I had managed to arrange a Hindusthani Vocal Concert by Hirabhai Barodekar ( who had settled in Chennai as she had more concerts in Chennai than in the NORTH!!); I shd also acknowledge the INSPIRATION from the immortal GNB who was TOTALLY frank in his views about CM. & H.M. and got criticised for pranams to Bade Gulam Ali Khan! Those were different days....
The Yaman rendering of Hirabhai B at Raja Annamalai Hall- if I am not mistaken IT was part of the Tamil Isai Sangham annual season concert- is the BEST EVER I have heard in my listening from 1951. She was QUITE FOND of Carnatic music took things from C.M. & USED IT ALSO!Its very hard for me to CONCEDE SHE rendered Yaman BETTER than MMI MY ALL TIME ETERNAL Favourite- There are at least a dozen of MMI'S Kalyani R.T.P. as well as the kritis in Kalyani I consider to be the BEST as far as I am concerned....Bottom line is we are REMISS in not encouraging Artists like Dr.M.N. & ELEVATING the LEVELS under flimsy pretexts SOLO has no public appeal......VKV
Last edited by cacm on 18 Aug 2013, 22:24, edited 2 times in total.

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

PL DELETE POST@58! VKV(PARTIAL REPITITION) VKV

KNV1955
Posts: 354
Joined: 22 Oct 2012, 21:29

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by KNV1955 »

MSG is an exception to mastery over both styles (CM & HM).As much as I know he is the only one to have been an outstanding performer in both styles. But it is extremely difficult to be a quality performer in both styles. Kumar Gandharva's son came to my father to learn CM. .My father made him sing Hinduatani & politely told him not to venture into CM given his standard in HM as he felt it would in some way or the other affect his HM singing. But I believe rasikas of both styles should listen to both forms to understand the beauty in both forms. CM musicians & rasikas will learn a lot about sruthi suddham & voice culture by listening to HM. As Nramada said comparing them is futile.

cacm
Posts: 2212
Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

I am VERY HAPPY YOU wrote about your father & what he said. I can CORROBORATE & ADD that he had students all over the world starting with Beatle Harrison, PROFESSIONAL TENNIS PLAYERS,STUDENTS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD LIKE TOFUK etc, ......I attribute it to KVN'S BHAVAM, SRUTI SUDDHAM ALONG WITH ABSORBING ARIYAKUDI'S GENIUS & RAGHU'S ORIGINALITY IN FINDING A NEW PATH DURING PMI& PALANI'S STATUS ON TOP....I had the UNIQUE EXPERIENCE of listening to H.M. Experts like Badae Ghulam, Pakistan bros & SEVERAL OTHERS in H.M. lots of times thru' lp records along with Palghat Raghu in my NYC & BRONX APTS after returning to my apt with them after ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT CURRY CONCERTS AT WESLYAN U!....I am still VERY EMOTIONAL about KVN & P.R. & just cannot get over HOW GREAT THEY WERE! VKV

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Amidst the Trinity, Muthusamy Dikshitar composed in many of the famous North Indian Ragas like Ramkali , Dvijavanti... He skillfully adapted the slow tempo of the Dhrupad compositions and so on.
Narmada ji,

Nice to have your inputs! I just wanted to add a bit to the above statement.

My study on Oottukkadu Venkata Kavi has shown me that even before MD, Hindustani influence was abundant in the south, thanks to Naik as well as Maratha rulers. OVK has composed possibly the first ever tillana in Sindhubhairavi, which some of you have may heard people like Shri T N Seshagopalan and others sing. Besides, he has handled ragas like Hamirkalyani, Dwijayavanti (as his parampara calls it as opposed to Dwijavanti, and we can see that this bears a closer resemblance to the North Indian name, Jayjayawanti) etc. Interestingly, in one of his compositions, he poetically creates a scenario where Krishna's music transformed

Kalyani into Yamunakalyani
Saranga into Brindavanasaranga
Kambhodhi into Yadukulakambhodhi

Of course, these are not grammatical or even regional transformations and he is obviously creating a connection to Yamuna, Brindavana and Yadukula. But nevertheless an insight into the awareness of existence of some HM ragas.

Further, my visit to the Saraswatimahal Library also showed how much of Islamic influence was there in south Indian compositional forms (esp. dance) like Jikkini Daru, Salaam Daru etc.

Of course, Dikshitar and Tyagaraja certainly continued to compose in some of the above ragas, further enriching the interaction. In recent times, the reverse flow has become more apparent with ragas like Keeravani, Charukeshi etc going north.
Last edited by chitravina ravikiran on 19 Aug 2013, 08:56, edited 1 time in total.

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

TWO THAMBURAS RESONATING WITH EACH OTHER: This resonance phenomenon usually referred to as the SONOMETER Experiment
VKV sir,

You are perfectly right. It used to be an expt that I used to hope I'd get for my Physics practical exam! It is the same principle applied in the sympathetic resonance strings in Chitravina, sitar, sarod etc.

I wanted to only highlight the difference between sympathetic resonance within one instrument or with a Sonometer where the tuning fork is held so close to the vibrating string vs the sympathetic resonance of two different tanpuras across a large room. That takes phenomenal level of tuning and inherent resonance of each instrument and almost impossible to replicate. Which is why it's amazing that stalwarts like HMB were capable of that degree of perfection in shruti.

drmnarmadha96
Posts: 42
Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 07:22

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by drmnarmadha96 »

Dear all,

It was wonderful and interesting to read Dr. VKV ' s note on the Tanpura.

My father used to tell me that Pt.Omkarnath Thakurji practised and performed with four tanpuras.This helps the human voice for total resonance.

My own father in his earlier violin solo concerts had two tanpuras (manually played).The perfect matching of the bowed notes or that of the voice with the Svayambu antara gandhara generated on the mandra shadja of the tanpura meant a magical wand to every performer.

The Susvara element always scores.

Aptly it is

' Sruti matah
Laya pitah'

Even the art of playing the Tanpura strings calls for a special attention. Parurji taught each of us how to strum the strings of the tanpura and this is an art by itself.
Parurji performed all the saptasvaras on the tanpura strings and we had to in our practise sessions match our bowed notes with these tanpura generated notes and this is one of the greatest factors which took my father MSG Guruji to perfection in Sruti.

Music scores thro melody however simple or great it maybe ,and directly appeals to the heart.

Regards

Musically

Narmadha

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by uday_shankar »

chitravina ravikiran wrote:two different tanpuras across a large room
Indeed this is the crux of the matter. The sonometer experiment is child's play for any practicing musician but this is a whole different class of resonance.

Getting strings within the same "physical box" in unison or any harmonic interval (incidentally, depending on the particular circumstance, a jumper will work well all way up to the 9th harmonic) is quite commonplace.

One other matter is the jiva. Sonometer bridges are exact knife edges and hence the strings (provided they are good homgenous steel strings) produce a very stable vibration which resonates when tuned to the same pitch as the tuning fork held on the box, etc... However, the tambura bridge is curved and there's a jiva. This produces an "ensemble" of pitches and the key to tuning a tambura is "maximizing" the the perception of the required pitch. In addition, the jiva has the ability to "reinforce", something entirely absent in a sonometer.

This "reinforcement" due to the jiva is the key to the extrordinary Muthiah Bhagavathar tambura phenomenon. Without the jiva, the extremely minute resonances across the room would die down without enough energy. However, the "elevation" of the jiva makes the faintly vibrating string strike the curved bridge at a different point, setting of a series of secondary forced oscialltions, which "amplifies" the sound. When a tambura is well tuned, and more importantly when the jiva is placed well, I have been able to set off the tambura with a voice sound. One of the experiments I am doing now is to see if I can add a sympathetic string box to the chitravenu, a flute-like wind instrument :).

cacm
Posts: 2212
Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

Dear Uday, very interesting!......Ravi shankar appeared always able to do this rather easily and that is one of the reasons I FEEL power sprectrum considerations & brian servo type reactions on the part of the maker & receiver of the sound play a role esp. like you say a flute type instrument may have more difficulties in the resonance aspects of the thambura sound. Make sense? needs more time & length to explain what I am trying to say! If you come to Los Alamos as you are threatening to I can EXPLAIN BETTEWR! VKV

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by uday_shankar »

cacm wrote:flute type instrument may have more difficulties
In the interest of full disclosure, so far it's not been just difficult, it's been an utter failure. I've never had any problems aligning a flute a tambura but reverse sympathetic resonance has been impossible so far. Making matters worse, I don't have a good quality tambura with a good bridge to experiment with, so I cannot even replicate the voice experiment which I thought I was successful. Yes, I will land up in Los Alamos one of these days :).

cacm
Posts: 2212
Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

TO ME the MOST EDUCATIONAL, TECHNICALLY SATISFYING, AND AUTHORITATIVE result of this thread has been discussions of THAMBURA and its "complications" & the participation of REAL EXPERTS LIKE Ravi Kiran, Dr.M.Narmadha and Uday Shankar and their EXPERTISE. The question of C.M. vs H.M. etc to me have been CORRECTLY sidelined by this erudite approach......VKV

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by arasi »

Experts discussing all this, not in a lec-dem setting with interruptions, but here on Rasikas.org, sharing their knowledge and experience, adding the history of CM seen through the lives of the great, giving us a glimpse into how they lived with music!

Thanks to Ravikiran, Dr. Narmadha, VKV, Uday and others...

drmnarmadha96
Posts: 42
Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 07:22

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by drmnarmadha96 »

Greetings Ravikiranji and Greetings to all,

Existence of Hindustani Raagas can go to much earlier a period, just after the bifurcation.

The performance of the HM ragas ; the performers who popularised them is what I am conveying.
The musical fraternity, well will agree on the pioneering and phenomenal contribution of MSG Guruji as a HM performer and also enjoying the unique status of having performed Ragas like Nalinakanti ( the unforgettable 7 mts EP Nalinakanti) with his father Parurji and handling Hamir Kalyani...When a performer practically performs in both styles with ease and command (like myself in the footsteps of my great father) it really adds a third melodic dimension and the hearing experience is unique.
Performing each style of music in its own distinctive style is challenging , demands practise of performing Hindustani solo violin concerts (in my case),and to note that Parurji brought such classical Hindustani Music very early to South India after his own pristine training and association with the Hindustani Doyen Pandit Vishnu Digambar Paluskar Ji (like Purandaradasa to Karnatak music)stands unmatched and unparalleled in the history and performance of Indian Music. Parurji also broadened the classical musical visions in day to day performances including unique approaches. I find this(as a student of music myself )amazing when this was accomplished at a time when computers were at their lowest ebb in India. Sheer Hardwork of Parurji. Both Parurji and MSG Guruji enjoy a lion's share in their Indian Music status.

Today, the great Shri Arvind Parikhji ; a virtuosic Sitar player and from a great Talim (lineage) himself, tells me; “Your father' s Shuddh Kalyan is unforgettable and I can’t find a single tinge of Karnatak touch..”

The transformation of Ragas; the introduction of anya svaras or special prayogas are all an inherent part of the Raga structural growth thro the musical centuries.

The North Indian performer still explain the occurrence and usage of teevra madhyam in Raga Behag originally a derivative of Bilawal (roughly Sankarabarabam) and which was couched originally with just shuddh madhyam only.

Just thought of sharing my Indian Music thoughts. Music is Universal and so are we; the musical community of India. Manodharma in its varying degrees and journeys has given us this unique gift of Hindustani and Karnatak Music..

Regards,

Musically
Narmadha.

eesha
Posts: 366
Joined: 30 Apr 2009, 23:15

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by eesha »

KNV1955 wrote:MSG is an exception to mastery over both styles (CM & HM).As much as I know he is the only one to have been an outstanding performer in both styles.
It appears, Sri MSG also had a firm grip over Western classical music, though he did not pursue the path seriously.

Here is an audio clip of MSG playing western classical piece:

http://snd.sc/12rbq1N

A complete musician, beyond boundaries, in a league of his own.

cacm
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Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

I AGREE TOTALLY WITH WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN. VKV

eesha
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by eesha »

drmnarmadha96 wrote: My own father in his earlier violin solo concerts had two tanpuras (manually played).The perfect matching of the bowed notes or that of the voice with the Svayambu antara gandhara generated on the mandra shadja of the tanpura meant a magical wand to every performer.
Sri MSG's concerts always stood out with tampura volume level well audible , much more than what we hear in other carnatic music concerts. One needs lot of guts to have a well audible tampura level, as it automatically calls for perfect sruti alignment and blemishless raga rendering. Even a very minor sruti lapse can be noticeable with a well audible tampura sound. And Sri MSG had the guts, thanks to the focus on perfection inculcated by the legendary Parur ji.

One of Sri TNK's students told me - Sri TNK told him once "go to Appar swami koil street and learn how to tune your violin". That shows the regards Sri TNK had for Sri MSG on the latter's sruti suddham.

arasi
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by arasi »

Thanks, Eesha!
Great clip and post!

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