Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
harimau
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Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by harimau »

Everybody is talking about the tambura not being heard in Carnatic concerts,

At the Hindusthani concert at Kalakshetra, there were two tamburas, one Radel electronic tambura and an iPod playing sruthi. After the concert, when the floor was opened to questions, someone asked what she was doing with four different instruments for sruthi. The singer replied she used them to search for and locate 'Sa'.

I am sure this will be touted as an example of sruthi suddham.

In that case, T M Krishna is three-fourths of the way along perfect sruthi, as he usually has two tamburas and an iPod playing the sruthi. If he brings a Radel, that would make it perfect!

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by Nick H »

harimau wrote:...The singer replied she used them to search for and locate 'Sa'.
In which case all those strings and electronics could be replaced by someone puffing on a pitch pipe. Or, dispense with that person too, and just have the vocalist pause to blow it from time to time.

tiruppugazh
Posts: 105
Joined: 11 Jul 2010, 21:27

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by tiruppugazh »

Those were the days when musicians sang with a single manual tambura. Wonder if there are any musicians who still do that these days

varsha
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Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by varsha »

Raghav Menons book on Kumar Gandharva deals with the subject of KGs use of three tanpuras in some details.
Here are a few other pointers
http://lakshmisreeram.com/blog/

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Raghav Menons book on Kumar Gandharva deals with the subject of KGs use of three tanpuras in some details.
Kumar ji was gracious enough to share some of his insights with me during a festival in Varanasi where both of us were performing. He told me that it is not the number of tanpuras but how well in sync they are.

Which reminds me of an amazing fact. My grandfather, Gotuvadyam Narayana Iyengar and Harikeshanallur Muttiah Bhagavatar were colleagues in the Mysore Court and had regular musical interactions (the latter learnt to play the instrument a bit from my grandfather and taught him several of his compositions). My grandmother used to recall about the two tanpuras in HMB's house, which had been named Rama-Lakshmana. They'd be kept in opposite ends of his music room but would be so well tuned that if he played one, the other would resonate...

I have seen just one tanpura used by SSI, Brindamma, KVN sir but they'd personally tune it so beautifully. So would many of the AIR tanpura artistes like Shri Kulikkarai Vishwalingam, Tiruvarur Sethuraman, Shri PSN etc. Brindamma and my father have both elaborated on how to use the thinnest possible thread for the jeeva as opposed to common practice.

It's quite therapeutic to wake up around 3 or 4 am and perfectly tune even a mildly recalcitrant tanpura...

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

i thank Ravi Kiran for taking the time to share some of his enormous knowledge of the history as well as the subject matter. As a layman let me write about a few things I can relate to:
1) TWO THAMBURAS RESONATING WITH EACH OTHER: This resonance phenomenon usually referred to as the SONOMETER Experiment (familiar to most Physics students in Madras of at least my days) is done with two Tuning forks of a SPECIFIC FREQUENCY like 256 cycles( C--) with small paper pieces which will vibrate when the frequencies are very close to each other and the Power Spectrum MATCH FOR BOTH TUNING FORKS-dont want to belabour details of Expt which most will know-. POWER SPECTRUM ( DISTRIBUTION OF OTHER FREQUENCIES) DETAILS DICTATE whether this phenomenon will occur.
THE BRAIN-VOICE Servo loop mechanisms- too detailed to go over here- explains the Complexities as well as the perfection reached by greats like MMI & MSS.
In the case of MMI (asRavi K has observed about Harikesanallur-MMI'S GURU) ONE of the practices involved TWO thamburas & his voice which had to match perfectly under varying conditions.I have observed this perfection in his M.A. CONCERTS where Leading Musicians on the stage were mesmerized & spell bound WHEN they were within the range of his original voice. Different days?!
MSS as a very young girl used to play a game in which FOUR tuned thamburas(tuned to her voice) in four corners of the room were arbitrarily played or turned off & she had to run around the room as well as match the sounds perfectly!
In the case of KVN I had arranged a concert of his (& Palghat Raghu-NO VIOLIN) at Syracuse U in the sixties & I had to play Thambura in addition to being master of ceremonies. KVN tuned it for close to an hour & in my debut as Thambura artist-first & last time in my life- if the thambura angle deviated by more than half a degree-KVN could not allow that deviation he felt that the frequencies he could hear were different!..its close to the head angle sensors used in mid air collision for military aircraft use!
Incidentally I was born in Devakkottai a few houses from which the immortal Devakkottai Narayana Iyengar lived and may be thats why I can at least APPRECIATE the GENIUS OF RAVIKIRAN.....VKV

drmnarmadha96
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by drmnarmadha96 »

Dear all,

Greetings and Namashkar from me...Narmadha.

My humble thoughts on this discussion.

Hailing from the genre of the Parur MSG Indian Violin Musical heritage ;pioneers in performing both Hindustani and Karnatak music concerts in equal command, mastery and versatility ,and me ,like my legendary father MSG Guruji ,performing in both Hindustani and Karnatic (owing my allegiance to my Gurus who imparted simultaneous training in both classical systems from my 4th year onwards in vocal and violin )which is a rare Saubhagya, will like to stress that it is important to have a broad minded approach to the performance and also to respect and appreciate both the styles of Indian Music.

Ultimately the two eyes of Bharat Mata represent the two most important styles Karnatak and Hindustani in terms of Bhava : Raaga & Taala.

Comparing two classical systems, as my father legendary violinist MSG Guruji used to say, is just superfluous: rather futile.

Bharat Ratna MS Amma performed Hindi Bhajans and Shri Madurai Mani Iyer sang the English notes as part of the classical concerts.
MSG Guruji immortalised the Hindustani Sindubhairavi Tarana in his classical solo violin concerts.

For them, it was their sheer love and passion for the music beyond all boundaries.

I would like to relate an interesting incident here.
When me and my father performed a Hindustani Violin Duet concert in Dharwad some years ago for the birthday function of Vidushi Gangubai Hangal she shared a secret with us that she learnt many Karnatak compositions including Tyagaraja's Nenaruncinanu and simultaneously Khayals from the Kirana Gharana right from her young age and this wonderful vision of music really helped her perform in such virtuosity.

Every student of music can usefully enrich knowledge by absorbing the quintessence of each style undertaking a musical voyage.
Take food, fabric, places; everything has an intrinsic charm and is enticing too.

Music being the ultimate of tonal expressions presents itself in various facets.Understanding the tonal beauties of both the manodharmic styles, I am sure that every performance gains added sound contours.

Amidst the Trinity, Muthusamy Dikshitar composed in many of the famous North Indian Ragas like Ramkali , Dvijavanti... He skillfully adapted the slow tempo of the Dhrupad compositions and so on.
These are proof positives that Indian Music is an ocean and turning every pebble of knowledge is challenging enough to be achieved in a life time.
So it will be wonderful to understand every musical nuance of the note.

Tyagaraja says: ‘Sa ri ga ma pa da ni..vara sapta svara’.

Tanna Miya (Tansen) says Svara is magical and it is infinite. ‘Svar tho hai ye sansar’ ( svara is the universe).

Since time flies and that India has a unique cultural heritage, why not spend musical time on discovering the mystics of the Sapta Svaras which governs the universe and try to become a listener and a performer in both styles.

Regards to all,

Musically

Dr.M.Narmadha

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

I thank Dr.M.Narmadha for jioning & sharing her expertise on C.M. & H.M. with us. Like her G.father Parur Sundaram Iyer & father M.S.G. TODAY she is the ONE GENUINE MUSICIAN who TRULY is BOTH a C.M. & H.M. SPECIALIST, SCHOLAR, AS WELL AS EXCELLENT PERFORMER whose DEMO/CONCERTS in addition to regular concerts are Musically of the highest order as well as educational(at least to me).
Its a pity that SOLOS are apparently no longer favoured by the organisers today who like most of the so called music critics show an appaling level of ignorance. Its due to visionaray Sabha Secretaries like Sethuraman of Perambur Sangeetha Sabha we today have recordings of MALI, Sambasiva Iyer and several other GIANTS in their instruments. We can get educated & enlightened by today's soloists who I contend are as GOOD of those of yester years....
Incidentally inspired by Sethuraman of Perambur Sangeetha Sabha I had managed to arrange a

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

I thank Dr.M.Narmadha for joIning & sharing her expertise on C.M. & H.M. with us. Like her G.father Parur Sundaram Iyer & father M.S.G. TODAY she is the ONE GENUINE MUSICIAN who TRULY is BOTH a C.M. & H.M. SPECIALIST, SCHOLAR, AS WELL AS EXCELLENT PERFORMER whose DEMO/CONCERTS in addition to regular concerts are Musically of the highest order as well as educational(at least to me).
Its a pity that SOLOS are apparently no longer favoured by the organisers today who like most of the so called music critics show an appaling level of ignorance. Its due to visionaray Sabha Secretaries like Sethuraman of Perambur Sangeetha Sabha we today have recordings of MALI, Sambasiva Iyer and several other GIANTS in their instruments. We can get educated & enlightened by today's soloists who I contend are as GOOD of those of yester years....
Incidentally inspired by Sethuraman of Perambur Sangeetha Sabha I had managed to arrange a Hindusthani Vocal Concert by Hirabhai Barodekar ( who had settled in Chennai as she had more concerts in Chennai than in the NORTH!!); I shd also acknowledge the INSPIRATION from the immortal GNB who was TOTALLY frank in his views about CM. & H.M. and got criticised for pranams to Bade Gulam Ali Khan! Those were different days....
The Yaman rendering of Hirabhai B at Raja Annamalai Hall- if I am not mistaken IT was part of the Tamil Isai Sangham annual season concert- is the BEST EVER I have heard in my listening from 1951. She was QUITE FOND of Carnatic music took things from C.M. & USED IT ALSO!Its very hard for me to CONCEDE SHE rendered Yaman BETTER than MMI MY ALL TIME ETERNAL Favourite- There are at least a dozen of MMI'S Kalyani R.T.P. as well as the kritis in Kalyani I consider to be the BEST as far as I am concerned....Bottom line is we are REMISS in not encouraging Artists like Dr.M.N. & ELEVATING the LEVELS under flimsy pretexts SOLO has no public appeal......VKV
Last edited by cacm on 18 Aug 2013, 22:24, edited 2 times in total.

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

PL DELETE POST@58! VKV(PARTIAL REPITITION) VKV

KNV1955
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by KNV1955 »

MSG is an exception to mastery over both styles (CM & HM).As much as I know he is the only one to have been an outstanding performer in both styles. But it is extremely difficult to be a quality performer in both styles. Kumar Gandharva's son came to my father to learn CM. .My father made him sing Hinduatani & politely told him not to venture into CM given his standard in HM as he felt it would in some way or the other affect his HM singing. But I believe rasikas of both styles should listen to both forms to understand the beauty in both forms. CM musicians & rasikas will learn a lot about sruthi suddham & voice culture by listening to HM. As Nramada said comparing them is futile.

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

I am VERY HAPPY YOU wrote about your father & what he said. I can CORROBORATE & ADD that he had students all over the world starting with Beatle Harrison, PROFESSIONAL TENNIS PLAYERS,STUDENTS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD LIKE TOFUK etc, ......I attribute it to KVN'S BHAVAM, SRUTI SUDDHAM ALONG WITH ABSORBING ARIYAKUDI'S GENIUS & RAGHU'S ORIGINALITY IN FINDING A NEW PATH DURING PMI& PALANI'S STATUS ON TOP....I had the UNIQUE EXPERIENCE of listening to H.M. Experts like Badae Ghulam, Pakistan bros & SEVERAL OTHERS in H.M. lots of times thru' lp records along with Palghat Raghu in my NYC & BRONX APTS after returning to my apt with them after ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT CURRY CONCERTS AT WESLYAN U!....I am still VERY EMOTIONAL about KVN & P.R. & just cannot get over HOW GREAT THEY WERE! VKV

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Amidst the Trinity, Muthusamy Dikshitar composed in many of the famous North Indian Ragas like Ramkali , Dvijavanti... He skillfully adapted the slow tempo of the Dhrupad compositions and so on.
Narmada ji,

Nice to have your inputs! I just wanted to add a bit to the above statement.

My study on Oottukkadu Venkata Kavi has shown me that even before MD, Hindustani influence was abundant in the south, thanks to Naik as well as Maratha rulers. OVK has composed possibly the first ever tillana in Sindhubhairavi, which some of you have may heard people like Shri T N Seshagopalan and others sing. Besides, he has handled ragas like Hamirkalyani, Dwijayavanti (as his parampara calls it as opposed to Dwijavanti, and we can see that this bears a closer resemblance to the North Indian name, Jayjayawanti) etc. Interestingly, in one of his compositions, he poetically creates a scenario where Krishna's music transformed

Kalyani into Yamunakalyani
Saranga into Brindavanasaranga
Kambhodhi into Yadukulakambhodhi

Of course, these are not grammatical or even regional transformations and he is obviously creating a connection to Yamuna, Brindavana and Yadukula. But nevertheless an insight into the awareness of existence of some HM ragas.

Further, my visit to the Saraswatimahal Library also showed how much of Islamic influence was there in south Indian compositional forms (esp. dance) like Jikkini Daru, Salaam Daru etc.

Of course, Dikshitar and Tyagaraja certainly continued to compose in some of the above ragas, further enriching the interaction. In recent times, the reverse flow has become more apparent with ragas like Keeravani, Charukeshi etc going north.
Last edited by chitravina ravikiran on 19 Aug 2013, 08:56, edited 1 time in total.

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

TWO THAMBURAS RESONATING WITH EACH OTHER: This resonance phenomenon usually referred to as the SONOMETER Experiment
VKV sir,

You are perfectly right. It used to be an expt that I used to hope I'd get for my Physics practical exam! It is the same principle applied in the sympathetic resonance strings in Chitravina, sitar, sarod etc.

I wanted to only highlight the difference between sympathetic resonance within one instrument or with a Sonometer where the tuning fork is held so close to the vibrating string vs the sympathetic resonance of two different tanpuras across a large room. That takes phenomenal level of tuning and inherent resonance of each instrument and almost impossible to replicate. Which is why it's amazing that stalwarts like HMB were capable of that degree of perfection in shruti.

drmnarmadha96
Posts: 42
Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 07:22

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by drmnarmadha96 »

Dear all,

It was wonderful and interesting to read Dr. VKV ' s note on the Tanpura.

My father used to tell me that Pt.Omkarnath Thakurji practised and performed with four tanpuras.This helps the human voice for total resonance.

My own father in his earlier violin solo concerts had two tanpuras (manually played).The perfect matching of the bowed notes or that of the voice with the Svayambu antara gandhara generated on the mandra shadja of the tanpura meant a magical wand to every performer.

The Susvara element always scores.

Aptly it is

' Sruti matah
Laya pitah'

Even the art of playing the Tanpura strings calls for a special attention. Parurji taught each of us how to strum the strings of the tanpura and this is an art by itself.
Parurji performed all the saptasvaras on the tanpura strings and we had to in our practise sessions match our bowed notes with these tanpura generated notes and this is one of the greatest factors which took my father MSG Guruji to perfection in Sruti.

Music scores thro melody however simple or great it maybe ,and directly appeals to the heart.

Regards

Musically

Narmadha

uday_shankar
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by uday_shankar »

chitravina ravikiran wrote:two different tanpuras across a large room
Indeed this is the crux of the matter. The sonometer experiment is child's play for any practicing musician but this is a whole different class of resonance.

Getting strings within the same "physical box" in unison or any harmonic interval (incidentally, depending on the particular circumstance, a jumper will work well all way up to the 9th harmonic) is quite commonplace.

One other matter is the jiva. Sonometer bridges are exact knife edges and hence the strings (provided they are good homgenous steel strings) produce a very stable vibration which resonates when tuned to the same pitch as the tuning fork held on the box, etc... However, the tambura bridge is curved and there's a jiva. This produces an "ensemble" of pitches and the key to tuning a tambura is "maximizing" the the perception of the required pitch. In addition, the jiva has the ability to "reinforce", something entirely absent in a sonometer.

This "reinforcement" due to the jiva is the key to the extrordinary Muthiah Bhagavathar tambura phenomenon. Without the jiva, the extremely minute resonances across the room would die down without enough energy. However, the "elevation" of the jiva makes the faintly vibrating string strike the curved bridge at a different point, setting of a series of secondary forced oscialltions, which "amplifies" the sound. When a tambura is well tuned, and more importantly when the jiva is placed well, I have been able to set off the tambura with a voice sound. One of the experiments I am doing now is to see if I can add a sympathetic string box to the chitravenu, a flute-like wind instrument :).

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

Dear Uday, very interesting!......Ravi shankar appeared always able to do this rather easily and that is one of the reasons I FEEL power sprectrum considerations & brian servo type reactions on the part of the maker & receiver of the sound play a role esp. like you say a flute type instrument may have more difficulties in the resonance aspects of the thambura sound. Make sense? needs more time & length to explain what I am trying to say! If you come to Los Alamos as you are threatening to I can EXPLAIN BETTEWR! VKV

uday_shankar
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by uday_shankar »

cacm wrote:flute type instrument may have more difficulties
In the interest of full disclosure, so far it's not been just difficult, it's been an utter failure. I've never had any problems aligning a flute a tambura but reverse sympathetic resonance has been impossible so far. Making matters worse, I don't have a good quality tambura with a good bridge to experiment with, so I cannot even replicate the voice experiment which I thought I was successful. Yes, I will land up in Los Alamos one of these days :).

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

TO ME the MOST EDUCATIONAL, TECHNICALLY SATISFYING, AND AUTHORITATIVE result of this thread has been discussions of THAMBURA and its "complications" & the participation of REAL EXPERTS LIKE Ravi Kiran, Dr.M.Narmadha and Uday Shankar and their EXPERTISE. The question of C.M. vs H.M. etc to me have been CORRECTLY sidelined by this erudite approach......VKV

arasi
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by arasi »

Experts discussing all this, not in a lec-dem setting with interruptions, but here on Rasikas.org, sharing their knowledge and experience, adding the history of CM seen through the lives of the great, giving us a glimpse into how they lived with music!

Thanks to Ravikiran, Dr. Narmadha, VKV, Uday and others...

drmnarmadha96
Posts: 42
Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 07:22

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by drmnarmadha96 »

Greetings Ravikiranji and Greetings to all,

Existence of Hindustani Raagas can go to much earlier a period, just after the bifurcation.

The performance of the HM ragas ; the performers who popularised them is what I am conveying.
The musical fraternity, well will agree on the pioneering and phenomenal contribution of MSG Guruji as a HM performer and also enjoying the unique status of having performed Ragas like Nalinakanti ( the unforgettable 7 mts EP Nalinakanti) with his father Parurji and handling Hamir Kalyani...When a performer practically performs in both styles with ease and command (like myself in the footsteps of my great father) it really adds a third melodic dimension and the hearing experience is unique.
Performing each style of music in its own distinctive style is challenging , demands practise of performing Hindustani solo violin concerts (in my case),and to note that Parurji brought such classical Hindustani Music very early to South India after his own pristine training and association with the Hindustani Doyen Pandit Vishnu Digambar Paluskar Ji (like Purandaradasa to Karnatak music)stands unmatched and unparalleled in the history and performance of Indian Music. Parurji also broadened the classical musical visions in day to day performances including unique approaches. I find this(as a student of music myself )amazing when this was accomplished at a time when computers were at their lowest ebb in India. Sheer Hardwork of Parurji. Both Parurji and MSG Guruji enjoy a lion's share in their Indian Music status.

Today, the great Shri Arvind Parikhji ; a virtuosic Sitar player and from a great Talim (lineage) himself, tells me; “Your father' s Shuddh Kalyan is unforgettable and I can’t find a single tinge of Karnatak touch..”

The transformation of Ragas; the introduction of anya svaras or special prayogas are all an inherent part of the Raga structural growth thro the musical centuries.

The North Indian performer still explain the occurrence and usage of teevra madhyam in Raga Behag originally a derivative of Bilawal (roughly Sankarabarabam) and which was couched originally with just shuddh madhyam only.

Just thought of sharing my Indian Music thoughts. Music is Universal and so are we; the musical community of India. Manodharma in its varying degrees and journeys has given us this unique gift of Hindustani and Karnatak Music..

Regards,

Musically
Narmadha.

eesha
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by eesha »

KNV1955 wrote:MSG is an exception to mastery over both styles (CM & HM).As much as I know he is the only one to have been an outstanding performer in both styles.
It appears, Sri MSG also had a firm grip over Western classical music, though he did not pursue the path seriously.

Here is an audio clip of MSG playing western classical piece:

http://snd.sc/12rbq1N

A complete musician, beyond boundaries, in a league of his own.

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

I AGREE TOTALLY WITH WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN. VKV

eesha
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by eesha »

drmnarmadha96 wrote: My own father in his earlier violin solo concerts had two tanpuras (manually played).The perfect matching of the bowed notes or that of the voice with the Svayambu antara gandhara generated on the mandra shadja of the tanpura meant a magical wand to every performer.
Sri MSG's concerts always stood out with tampura volume level well audible , much more than what we hear in other carnatic music concerts. One needs lot of guts to have a well audible tampura level, as it automatically calls for perfect sruti alignment and blemishless raga rendering. Even a very minor sruti lapse can be noticeable with a well audible tampura sound. And Sri MSG had the guts, thanks to the focus on perfection inculcated by the legendary Parur ji.

One of Sri TNK's students told me - Sri TNK told him once "go to Appar swami koil street and learn how to tune your violin". That shows the regards Sri TNK had for Sri MSG on the latter's sruti suddham.

arasi
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by arasi »

Thanks, Eesha!
Great clip and post!

cacm
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by cacm »

[quote="eesha"]"drmnarmadha96
My own father in his earlier violin solo concerts had two tanpuras (manually played).The perfect matching of the bowed notes or that of the voice with the Svayambu antara gandhara generated on the mandra shadja of the tanpura meant a magical wand to every performer.DR.M.N.

Sri MSG's concerts always stood out with tampura volume level well audible , much more than what we hear in other carnatic music concerts. One needs lot of guts to have a well audible tampura level, as it automatically calls for perfect sruti alignment and blemishless raga rendering. Even a very minor sruti lapse can be noticeable with a well audible tampura sound. And Sri MSG had the guts, thanks to the focus on perfection inculcated by the legendary Parur ji
.......VERY TRUE! The only two others who dared to do so even in the dim distant past was M.S.S. & MMI. KVN in later times was able to do it when he decided to concentrate & highlight MELODY compared to emphasis on LAYAM in his very early career. What Bhavam levels he reached is still unmatched!

One of Sri TNK's students told me - Sri TNK told him once "go to Appar swami koil street and learn how to tune your violin". That shows the regards Sri TNK had for Sri MSG on the latter's sruti suddham.......
Even the great GNB used to check with MSG'S violin for Swara Suddham when he was unfairly accused & critized of not conforming to the proper "KEEZH" SA. VKV

rajeshv109
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by rajeshv109 »

It seems that this thread has meandered off course and the original question remains
unanswered. The original topic was,
"Why are hindustani rasikas (north indians) unable to appreciate carnatic music while
carnatic rasikas (south indians generally) are able in larger part to appreciate both
forms of music.

Dr Narmadaji's anecdote regarding Arvind Parikh is telling, albeit in a different
way. Shri Parikh was astounded by MSG's Shuddh Kalyan (no carnatic trace) -okay.
Did it prompt him to listen to MSG's carnatic pieces and was he moved my any one
of them? How about her gurus in Delhi? Did they appreciate MSG's carnatic music?

Has she successfully counseled north indians into appreciating carnatic music? If not,
why? I am myself a fan of both forms.

Regards,
Rajesh

SrinathK
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Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by SrinathK »

I think we've adequately discussed it. Ultimately the summary is simple :

1) There are a lot of rasikas in the country. Human beings need time for their ears to adjust to new sounds and musical principles and most rasikas will not take the time and effort to gain sufficient familiarity with other systems of music. It may take months or years of listening before a single person may attain a comfortable level of familiarity with a new kind of music. The vast majority of listeners as such only have enough patience for small, lighter numbers so how will they appreciate the vastness of classical music?

2) Human beings can be prejudiced and wary of anything new that departs from the familiar. Also there is a tendency to dismiss anything that requires a little time and patience to learn as "intellectual", especially when it is outside one's own area of expertise.

3) Carnatic performances could do a lot to improve the standard of it's tone and sruthi suddham in the second last tier below the top of the pyramid such as improving the audibility of the tanpura, etc...

4) Those who have gained sufficient knowledge and exposure to both systems are able to equally enjoy and appreciate both forms of music. Hence adopting an open attitude, with a little patience, to appreciate the best of each music system and spending sufficient time and energy (even if it is only a few minutes every day) to explore other systems of music is always best. Such a rasika must always be in the mood of a student of music.

drmnarmadha96
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Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 07:22

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by drmnarmadha96 »

Parurji invited Hindustani musicians to Chennai at our Mylapore home Sangita Vilas ,wherein after they presented HM concerts(Gaana) at our home followed by Khaana., my father presented Tyagaraja Kritis. On being fascinated when they heard KM, they acknowledged my father' s musical genius to perform HM without the Karnatic touch.

The pioneering efforts of my grandfather took KM to North India and HM to South India.

Ustad Alladin Khan , the HM doyen learnt the 72 mela scales from my grandfather and we heard Parurji relating them in our practise sessions.

The musical fervour can cross boundaries of different thoughts and the aim is to have a broad minded vision and approach.
Every artiste has a responsibility that while they teach, as my grandfather did ,to inculcate values and respect for both the classical streams of India.
We can invite HMusicians to hear KM concerts as my grandfather did so many years ago when it was so tough to accomplish things without sponsor or any external support.

Ustad Amjad Ali Khanji performed a KM kriti @ Thiruvaiyaru Tyagaraja Aradana many years ago.
Jyi plz.

The ultimate joy is to view music as Global.
Do we ask these questions when Indian audience perform for Western Audience.
in fact we embrace every system thro our musical genius.

Aakhirji,
United we stand.
Divided we Fall.

regards
narmadha

rajeshv109
Posts: 5
Joined: 14 Jan 2012, 01:07

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by rajeshv109 »

Dear Narmadaji,

I read your post with great pleasure. Reading about this kind of cross pollination and
mutual appreciation in your anecdote filled message was truly inspiring. Hopefully with your
efforts the gap will be bridged further and there will be greater appreciation
of both music forms all over India and the world.

Regards,
Rajesh

munirao2001
Posts: 1334
Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by munirao2001 »

Fact is, HM practitioners and rasikas, either they are put off or its too complicated for listening and enjoyment. Pride and Prejudice have become impenetrable walls for both the systems practitioners to appreciate the other systems high values, evolved over a long time. The pioneering efforts of great maestros of both the systems, AIR and few institutions have not changed the deep in grained attitude. The present generation of practitioners and rasikas, though in insignificant numbers are more open, tolerant and even enjoy the classical music of both the systems. They need all the encouragement, support and opportunities to break the barriers.
First and foremost National Institutes established by the Government, institutions receiving grants must become pro active and supportive of all the initiatives. AIR must plan and hold Sangeeth Sammelans, at least four times in year in all the centers of classical music appreciation first and later hold in other centers with potential growth. Foundations supporting the culture and fine arts and the federation of corporate sponsors- formed by Industry Associations should also support the initiatives. All the music colleges, schools and Universities must plan and organize the performances and the dialogues between the practitioners of both the systems on music appreciation-not based only on lectures and speeches but more on interactive and Q&A sessions-well structured, meaningful and result oriented. Other system can be offered as ancillary subjects for the students for obvious reasons. Practitioners representative bodies should come forward to plan and execute music appreciation, in their own interest and in collective interest of growth of classical music appreciation. Why not have accompanists-saath- of other system-string, wind and plucking and percussion instrumentalists of great repute( not restricted only to few jugalbandhi) ? Why not have originally conceived jugalbandi concerts( by AIR)- Three hour concerts of common and uncommon raga based-by Hindusthani and Karnatic maestros-seperately- to offer pristine and pure music of their system, uncompormisingly? Rasikas should commit to participate in ever growing numbers, appreciate and support all the initiatives in this direction. Their efforts in motivating the uninitiated to attend and appreciate will give extra boost. SPICMACAY and National Center for Performing Arts and Musicians Forum are already doing good work, with low key publicity and coverage. With this collective plan, sincere and self less efforts will only yield results in achieving the Unity in Diversity.
Sandhyavandanam Madhva Muni Rao(munirao2001)

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by varsha »

https://archive.org/details/TNKBaleKhan

A great occasion - Four stalwart birds gliding on thermals, where disctinnctions between HM- CM get blurred.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Narmada ji,

Your family is an exception and especially, your father is unmatched as a master of both these systems. That is because of his natural talent but more importantly, his work ethics, uncompromising investment of time on technical mastery & aesthetics under excellent direction from great gurus. If an artiste with that degree of aptitude puts in that kind of 10-12 plus hours per day under wonderful gurus, he/she can be this great bridge like MSG sir was. I must share the fact that even Semmangudi sir used to speak to me so respectfully about MSG sir's 'sadhakam'. Simple reality is that without that kind of investment, any effort to do justice to even one system is tough, leave alone spreading one's wings over two.

You may recall the Uttar-Dakshin conference in Chennai last year where your father also was present and both of us were speakers. Pt Ajoy Chakrabarthi ji raised several points about the shruti imperfections and too much intellectualisation in Carnatic and when I countered them with practical examples on both vocal and chitravina, Ajoy ji immediately conceded how 'pure' Carnatic could sound, if rendered properly and how mistaken he had been about certain things including the space certain compositions like padams offered. MSG sir also complimented me about the choice of Ghanta padam I had served as an example, nostalgically recalling how he had himself learnt some padams.

Shri T N Krishnan sir, told me a similar incident in the Uttar-Dakshin conference the year before in Bombay where the entire HM contingent incl. Ajoy ji, literally swooned over the purity of his very first note, the antara-gandharam in Hamsadhwani.

Bottomline is HM artistes look for quality delivery, all the time. They generally respect CM for its strong content but do not care if the 'delivery' is not perfect. Thus, artistes with solid content and pure delivery score high at the national or international level. Artiste with only content will be probably appreciated better at the local/regional levels.

I must also add that HM artistes place CM audiences on a higher pedestal than their own listeners. They also repeatedly tell me that culture is better preserved in the south than north, which is going all 'Bollywood'.

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by Rsachi »

When stalwarts like Chitraveena Ravikiran and Dr Narmadha Gopalakrishnan enter into this Rasikas discussion, that itself is for me a huge indication of the positive impact that such discussions can cultivate on the subject of HM and CM.

Now I have an idea. Supposing two great artistes and vaggeyakaras, one from CM and one from HM to start with, start developing a set of musical compositions with lyrics and structure which can be taught as a curriculum to both CM and HM students, we can create a bigger convergence and confluence of interactions. Slowly these can become a part of mainstream repertoire in both systems.

The lyrics can be Sanskrit shlokas, famous krithis and bhajans.

I welcome a discussion on this please.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by varsha »

https://archive.org/details/02Manasuloni

A day on which a fellow member here tried his hand at singing the HM part in HM-CM duet , with aplomb.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by varsha »

your father is unmatched as a master of both these systems.
https://archive.org/details/MalkaunsNagpur1983
Yes indeed.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by vasanthakokilam »

We have talked somewhat about professionals. How about the amateur scene? How do CM and HM compare?

Are there communities ( like tambram for CM, for example ) where learning HM is considered a thing to do irrespective of any professional ambitions? I am sure there are but we hardly get to hear about that.

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by thenpaanan »

varsha wrote:https://archive.org/details/02Manasuloni

A day on which a fellow member here tried his hand at singing the HM part in HM-CM duet , with aplomb.
Pardon my asking but could you name the artists? (Or is it meant to be anonymous?) Very nice singing.

Thenpaanan

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by varsha »

Pardon my asking but could you name the artists? (Or is it meant to be anonymous?) Very nice singing.
No .Not really. :) Waslooking for an unbiased hearing.
That was from a cm-hm duet concert of OST - Neyveli Santhanagopalan

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by thenpaanan »

varsha wrote: No .Not really. :) Waslooking for an unbiased hearing.
That was from a cm-hm duet concert of OST - Neyveli Santhanagopalan
Which is which? I liked the HM singing better than the CM singing. I presume from your wording that the HM piece was by Shri Santhanagopalan. I did not know that he could do that. You have my unbiased view now. :-)

Thenpaanan

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by arasi »

Varsha,
What a treat! Vidyaarthi brings his soukyam (soothing quality) and nidAnam (no hurrying) to 'basO morE nainan mE nanda lAl.

How his voice glides through the verse with ease and his customary depth!

When was this recorded?

munirao2001
Posts: 1334
Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by munirao2001 »

Vasanthakokilam

Amateur truly is in similar status or conditions as professional, in the present times. Lot many youth are taking to the learning both in CM and HM, majority starting the journey as promising artists but ending up being rasikas. When the entire support systems are in favor of only crowd pullers, amateurs population continuing to grow, unfortunately. One definite difference is, HM event sponsors and rasikas are willing to pay much higher remuneration to artists-including the amateur artists in comparison with CM.
As far as communities are concerned, the scenario remains unchanged- geographically Metro centric and traditional centers of music support and growth and caste wise only forward communities, with few exceptions- brahminical and pro brahminical forming majority. Age group wise, Senior Citizens form the majority of rasikas.
Indian Classical Music, with promising growth and reach, should receive well conceived and executed plans and successful implementation to achieve the goals and objective of 'music for the masses', not restricted to 'music for Class' only.

munirao2001

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by SrinathK »

M S Amma's vocal perfection at it's finest. Yes it's from the film Shakuntalai but what brighas, what sruthi perfection, what tone and what amazingly effortless maneuverability in those brighas!!

@cacm, Sruthi shuddham and tonal beauty don't get better and brighas can't get more precise. This is the gold standard for CM. For more listeners to appreciate the beauty of CM, one should also show those oldest of film songs that fully brought out the beauty of CM ragas.

http://snd.sc/155r3PY

harimau
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by harimau »

As is usual, any thread is hijacked by some people to advance their own agendas.

cacm has said that the only three South Indian musicians with sruthi suddham were Madurai Mani Iyer, M S Subbulakshmi and M S Gopalakrishnan.

So, where does that leave a person like K V Narayanaswamy who is acclaimed as one who can tune the tempura accurately? Was he singing off-key?

How about Lalgudi Jayaraman?

The September issue of "Sruthi" magazine has a feature on S G Kittappa. It seems Vishnu Digambar Paluskar, when he came to Chennai, asked S G Kittappa to sing Begada. After listening, he hugged and kissed Kittappa. After attending a (musical) play featuring Kittappa, he is supposed to have said to the audience that Kittappa was an avatara purusha. I suppose I assume wrong when I think that Kittappa's music met the highest expectations of Paluskar; for all I know Paluskar was happy that South Indian musicians posed no competition to Hindusthani musicians with regard to sruthi suddham.

Ravikiran tells us that Pandit Ravi Shankar was highly critical of Carnatic musicians in private. Did that comment include Ravikiran himself? If yes, that is the end of the matter. If not, there are two possibilities. One is that Ravi Shankar was being polite and implied "present company excluded" when he did not really mean to; the other is that he felt Ravikiran was wasting his time associating himself with besur sangeeth though Ravikiran's sense of sruthi is perfect.

The latter is very easily provable. As NickH has pointed out (in the only sensible post on this topic) one can run Ravikiran's music through software such as "Tunable" and figure out how exact his sruthi values are. Of course we could and should run Hindusthani music through "Tunable" to see whether those who took 6 months to learn "Sa" fare any better. Incidentally, if it took me 6 months to learn that 1+2 = 3, my Math teacher would have advised my parents to put me in an institution for the mentally retarded. Obviously, Hindusthani musicians are much more tolerant than my Math teacher.

Considering that I have recently acquired a CD of Ravikiran, I could do worse that spend an afternoon running that music through Audacity or SoundForge and look at the frequency spectrum. What the heck, I would be willing to submit the results to this website. The CD was not a live concert recording but one recorded in a studio providing ample opportunities for the musician to correct any errors.

We then have MSNarmadha advising me to take a global view and enjoy all types of music. Hello, is anybody home? Let me remind her that I was not the person dissing music I don't relate to. She should direct that advice to North Indian b******ds who dis Carnatic Music.

Going by the tone of her writings, I expected MSNarmadha to come out with more clichés but munirao beat her to it with "Unity in Diversity". Tell that to the Government of India, ICCR, the various Indian embassies in other countries, etc., who think that Hindusthani sitar music is the National music of India.

As someone wrote long long ago, the sherwani is not the National dress of India, the gharam masala is not the National spice of India and, to add to that, the sitar is not the National instrument of India. In fact, it came from Persia.

I expected a reasonable discussion of the nuances of Hindusthani and Carnatic systems of music and how the heavy use of gamakas in Carnatic music may give rise to false impressions in the minds of Hindusthani musicians. I should have known better. People write in claiming their favorite musicians, they themselves, their parents, their neighbors, etc., are the best qualified Carnatic musicians.

I am glad I didn't ask anybody's opinion of the lyrical compositions of Mylapore Mamis. If we are to go by what we have learned from this discussion, I am sure the consensus would be that Thyagaraja, Syama Sastri and Muthuswamy Deekshithar could take some lessons from the Mamis.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by arasi »

Savored your writing as usual, the humor of it, and your insights. What more can I say? Or would venture to say? All I can guess is how piqued you are ;)

Thank goodness, my pETTai is not Mylapore :)

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>As is usual, any thread is hijacked by some people to advance their own agendas.
Well, what is rasikas.org without that :) j/k

I agree that we can only break new grounds if we do not perceive things through the lens of our own pre-conceived point of view. It is not easy but it is worth keeping in mind and be aware of it even when we do it.

On this specific issue, I think you are flogging the strawman horse: I do not think the impressions of Hindusthani Musicians on CM amounts to much in reality. I personally do not even care about the perception of people who find the oscillation around a note to be out of tune. So be it, we are not going to change CM for them.

That is not the problem.

But there is a problem.

1. There are right oscillations and wrong oscillations. Right oscillations are in tune and wrong oscillations are out of tune. It is as simple as that. We know a good Begada Ma and Ni and a bad Begada Ma and Ni. There are so many artists, past and present, whose renditions of the Begada varnam make me cringe in a few places. Of course there are some great ones.

2. Carnatic Musicians indulge in things that are inherently quite risky. It is either a sangathi that is quite complicated or a sequence of swaras whose oscillations are not quite easy to pull off especially when sung in a sequence and such plethora of reasons. Combine all that with complicated kalpanaswaras in mind boggling rhythmic complexity. Some of what they try are audacious indeed. ( it is not just the rhythmic acrobatics ).

3. We rasikas would not want it any other way. ( at least a good chunk of us ).

4. When they try super audacious things, they slip. Different musicians slip to varying degrees. But without risk there is no reward. That seems to be the ethos of the CM eco-system.

5. As part of that same ethos is the expectation of variety. So many songs in different ragas one after the other in so many different rhythmic combinations. In fact, many times, I wish artists give a good pause between songs so I can recover from the depths of enjoyment of one raga. It is incredible how they can go from one to the other so quickly. I am just loudly wondering here ( rather wildly without much basis in any real data ) if this need to traverse through this wide ranging melodic contours can trip up some musicians a bit over a three hour concert.

6. We do not have to defend our CM musicians ( vocalists especially ) on sruthi suddham. Many vocalists do slip. It is just a matter of degree. Do we get a lot out of the music, even with those occasional slips? Absolutely and unapologetic-ally yes.

7. I am sure one can put out pretty good sounding music which is quite sowkyam filled when operating in conservative and safe limits. There is nothing wrong with it and there are a lot of artists who do that and they have a pretty good following.

8. But we do know they can do better. We want the audacity in musical thinking and execution and sruthi suddham at the same time. There are those who have done it. It is not impossible.

9. We can emphasize with them for all the reasons we have talked about in this thread. It is definitely not rampant enough to be considered out-of-tune music. If someone calls it that way, it is there own prejudicial point of view and it is their problem. At the same time, we as a community do not need to condone sruthi lapses. The one thing that stops the system as a whole from improving is to deny there is a problem.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by varsha »

So, where does that leave a person like K V Narayanaswamy
And MDR Who fascinated Ratanjankar and his disciples endlessly . With one of them CR Vyas , composing in praise of MDR .With another ,Dinakar Kaikini experimenting with composing in cm style , ending up with a body of work to fill up three published books . With the other two , Bhatt and Ginde being the most popular invitees at SGS Sabha programs in Chennai ,till the 60s .
And BMK who facinates Ajoy Chakravarthy ,in our own times ...
And a flautist like KSG ....

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by Nick H »

As NickH has pointed out (in the only sensible post on this topic) one can run Ravikiran's music through software such as "Tunable" and figure out how exact his sruthi values are.
For the record, let me quibble. I don't think (I haven't looked) that I quite said that. Tunable is an interesting app. For starters, it tells me that, when I think I am singing a single note, I am actually wavering all over the place :-s. I make no claims to musicianship, not even to a good enough sense of pitch to be able to detect shruthi lapses that might be making my concert neighbours cringe. Perhaps I'm lucky, perhaps I live in an innocent state of bliss! But, as you must know, it takes much more than a simple tuner to analyse gamaka-based music which is not even based on concert pitch or a tempered scale.

Work has certainly been done on technical pitch analysis of all sorts of music, and if I remember rightly, cacm, when he speaks of such things, is not only relying on the skills of his ears, but has done some of this work himself. I do envy those with greater musical skills, even of the listening kind; I also envy those who can look at the oscilloscope display and see something they understand.

If there is a problem with this thread, it is to found in the smallest word in the title: Vs. Allow me to coin a new name for such things: a Harimau Needle :).

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by Rsachi »

Vasanthakokilam,
Love your post.
Just heard the "Kannada" raga swarakalpana clip of Lalgudi from the Incurable Romantic CD.
Amazing virtuosity, melody and execution. Audacity indeed.
Yes, you're right, whether it is music or humour or criticism, audacity, smart turn of phrase, and perfection in execution, rarely go together, but are surely worthy of pursuit.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

Post by varsha »

Incidentally, if it took me 6 months to learn that 1+2 = 3, my Math teacher would have advised my parents to put me in an institution for the mentally retarded. Obviously, Hindusthani musicians are much more tolerant than my Math teacher.
You might have , even if inadvertently , stumbled upon the most important issue here . And I presume you really want to know.
HM musicians do not aim to arrive at the correct figure 3 . In their scheme of things , the total is bigger than the sum of the individual parts . Can be less on some days ( or with some musicians all the time ) .
It may not even be a number !!!
Is 3 + 4= 7 ? Yes for most of us .
Picasso was sent home by a math teacher exactly like the one you have in mind . For insisting that sum was not seven but an upturned nose .
He was lucky to have a Mom who understood the Math teachers difficulty .
HM is about dealing with the twilight all along and walking into bright sunshine at the end.
CM is about moving on a well lit road , with guide and compass . And the occasional twilight sneaking in during alapanas , neravals.
I can go on to elaborate in a non technical approach by jotting down the 10 issues that confront a HM enthusiast while appreciating CM , at the highest levels of appreciation . And vice versa .
I have been there , in both places.
The trick is in unlearning the part of being judgemental
I expected a reasonable discussion of the nuances
Just in case you were not aware - Most of the posters are terrified about you . One can never be sure that the next cannon will not settle down under ones own seat . This is not to deny what you espouse . The problem is that what you stand for is difficult to digest ,given our own vanities. I would expect you to end up being the most sincere admirer of HM , given your sincerity of objectives :-*

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