What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

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varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by varsha »

While the world keeps swwoning at this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh1m1VoMoAA

It must have taken creative bursts to retune like this
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/x9hw0bd ... a_Dasa.mp3

Fervour it boils down to.
The Abhang angle will never be understood unless one gives acceptance to , say an instance of a man in religious trance stomping on his own child .
Abhang ..The Road Roller
The kriti ...

Sreeni Rajarao
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 08:19

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by Sreeni Rajarao »

Varsha avare,

Beautiful! I have not heard this before - Thanks for yet another gem from Vidushi Sukanya Prabhakar!

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by vgovindan »

ranjimpa jEseDu rAgambulu
manjuLamagunavatAramuletti
manjIaramu ghallani naTincu
mahima teliyu tyAgarAja nutuDagu (SrIpa priya)

SrIpa priya - rAga aThANa - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -raga.html

One of the latest (mundane?) examples from FB (sorry for the concept - if it is not to the liking of someone - kindly switch off the audio)

https://www.facebook.com/siva.sjsiva/vi ... 231744998/

Art is a concept - it can be repackaged, no doubt. But it cannot be reproduced in the manner in which the artist originally conceived. I remember the dialogue in the film Sankarabharanam wherein Sankara Sastry explains as to how one word 'ammA' can take different shapes depending on the occasion. The combination of occasion and the word are inseparable.

gaNa nAthu sEya kOra kaDu vAnaruDai tirigE - பிள்ளையார் பிடிக்கக் குரங்கானதே -

evarito nE - mAnavati - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... lpudu.html

Tuning of 'nAnATi batuku' (annamayya) is an example of understanding the occasion and choosing a swara pattern to suit the occasion.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by varsha »

sreeni
thanks . I picked that track , drowned as I was , in misery , about the state and fate of inferior Karnataka singers :roll:
This to my understanding , is a great piece of tuning . Replete with instances of aesthetic contributions that can originate only from an understanding of CM(KM) . Feel free to ask for more . This was of two decades vintage .
Listem to another gem , tuned by Voleti
Sri Voleti Venkateswarlu has been inspired by his intimate knowledge of Hindusthani music so he chose to set some songs in Hindusthani ragas.
The inspiration
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/uadjnxb ... _Bawra.mp3
The result
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/ztt9uuz ... -_Desi.mp3

Sivaramakrishnan
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 08:29

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Lakshman, to your 'star question' as to why Semmangudi change the tune of bhAvayAmi raghurAmam from the original sAvEri to a rAgamAlikA, I must say that he was more than qualified to bring about certain 'changes' in view of his singular role in 'standardising' many ST kritis. Singing the entire kriti in Saveri cud be monotonous and the Ragamalika package has been quite appropriate. (Nobody seems to have heard the pure Saveri version-I had consulted many seniors too)

CRama
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by CRama »

The Bhavayami is entire Ramayanam told in appropriate stanzas in sync with the various Kaandams of the great epic. Semmangudi thought that in future, just like we have the practice of singing only one charanam for many songs, musicians will opt to sing only one charanam of this great song and thereby mutilate the Ramayanam. Hence with his great insight and vidwat he tuned this into a most attractive Ragamalika with the chittaswarams. It remains unparallel to this date.

To my knowledge also, I have never heard anybody singing this in Saveri.
An anecdote I read two decades back. One now popular musician (everybody can guess the musician) remarked that SSI choice of ragams are not appropriate for Bhavayami. It would have been better if it is retuned by Balamurali. To this one old connoisseur remarked. God I do not want to live to hear such abberations.

arasi
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by arasi »

CRama,
I don't know. sAvEri with all its emotive quality would not have been that effective all through, considering the number of verses in the song. An instance which perhaps says that there are exceptions to the rule. Moreover, here's an inspired piece of tuning on SSI's part, at least as I see it.

Another instance comes to mind of Bharathi's verses. The rAgA he had in mind for 'villinai oththa puruvam' was punnAga varALi. VVSadagopan popularized it by singing it like a kAvaDi chindu. It's very appealing and also captures the spirit of the composition. VVS sang a few other compositions of Bharathi in rAgAs that the poet had specified (suTTum vizhi in chenchuruTTi for instance, but making the rest of the verses into a rAga mAlikA).

thIrthak karaiyinilE, with many verses lent itself to a rAgamAlikA, so he changed it. kaNNan mana nilai too. .

Another reason for the changes was that he gave an all Bharathi concert in the late forties, the first of its kind. True to the concert tradition, the cachEri needed a rAgamAlikA or two :)

The one condition for a change in rAgAs, it seems too me, is that the tune smith is able to feel the pulse of the emotion of the song and is capable of it to musically craft it as well. VVS's tuning of Ambujam Krishna's first fifty one songs (Geetha Mala Vol:1) is ample evidence to his capabilities in doing that.

Priya,
Yet, like you, I would go with you in not wanting to mess around with the original intent of the composer. But who knows? BhArathi himself might have said 'balE pANDiyA!' to some of the new versions :)

CRama
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Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 16:58

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by CRama »

arasi wrote:CRama,


Another instance comes to mind of Bharathi's verses. The rAgA he had in mind for 'villinai oththa puruvam' was punnAga varALi. VVSadagopan popularized it by singing it like a kAvaDi chindu. It's very appealing and also captures the spirit of the composition.
Nice that you quoted this instance. Here I will say something further. This song is my ever favourite song. I do not know that Bharathiar indicated Punnagavarali for this. I have heard this Kavadichindu only. But subsequently there is one MS LP record of Bharathiar songs (released in 80s)- which is the only one record I am not happy with and I do not have it. This particular song is retuned in that record to some obscure Hindustani raga which I can never like.

Lakshman
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by Lakshman »

M.S has sung it in paTdIp rAgA. It can be heard here:
http://mio.to/album/MS.+Subbulakshmi/Bharathi+Songs+1

CRama
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Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 16:58

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by CRama »

How will a Kavadichindu fit in Patdeep?

Lakshman
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by Lakshman »

Another Bharatiyar song endaiyum tAyum was sung in paTdIp by DKP>

ramakriya
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by ramakriya »

The Mysore disease? Harimau, you could have come with a better word for sure!

arasi
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by arasi »

Ramakriya,
Though Harimau is up to date with many things, he has not seen (let alone heard) vol: 5 of my compositions sung by Gayathri Girish. She sings a paTdip song in that :)

Lakshman,
MS's singing villinai otha puruvam in paTdIp is lovely too. It's interesting to note that Bharathi has put down the rAgA as punnAgavarALi for it. VVS chooses verses to jive with a kAvaDi chindu. The feats of murugA described in the lines that are in paTdIp are of a different texture, and it does suit the content, it seems. The master tuner KallaDaikuRichi's work, no doubt.

CRama,
What do you think? If paTdIp is as alien as Harimau makes it out to be, how did behAg, bhAgESri (oh dear!), jOnpuri and Sindhubhairavi somehow get in--while he was on guard duty? :)

mahavishnu
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by mahavishnu »

CRama & others: The correct ragam for villinai otha puruvam is vElAvaLi, which is equivalent to gowrimanOhari (gowrivElAvaLi in the Dikshitar sampradayam). The reason for this is because of the motif of the composition being "vElavA".

While there is some resemblance to paTdip because of its intrinsic similarities to gowrimanOhari, it would be a stretch to call MSS's version hindustAni (IMHO). And besides the kAvadi chindu gait is very much present in this composition.

I encourage all of you to listen to this tune again with this in mind and all you will hear is an unorthodox yet folksy gowrimanOhari. And to me that captures Bharathi's spirit just as much as VVS's version.

arasi
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by arasi »

A...h! vELAvaLi it is! I thought a very vaLLi-esque paTdIp it was! Does the cover say vELAvaLi?

rshankar
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by rshankar »

Arasi - No one will know if Bharati's description of vaLLi was right, but we can all bear testimony that it certainly applies to Smt. MSS: 'sollinai tEnil kuzhaitturaippAL' whether it be in paTdIp, vElAvali, or anything else!!

mahavishnu
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by mahavishnu »

arasi wrote:A...h! vELAvaLi it is! I thought a very vaLLi-esque paTdIp it was! Does the cover say vELAvaLi?
The cover doesn't say much. I vividly remember the original LP from the '80s.

Looks like CRama and I had the same opinion about that album from ~three years ago (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19976)
And since then I have keenly listened to the VVS version as well!

CRama
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by CRama »

arasi. I am no way equal to Harimau for his knowledge or his attitude. I do not dislike Hindustani ragams nor Patdeep. There was one Malayalam devotional song Krishna Hare Jaya I heard in 1960s sung by P.Leela in Patdeep which is lovely. That was my first exposure to this ragam. Then there is a ST bhajan tuned in Patdeep Krishna Chandra Radha which also is familiar to me. But having very much fascinated by Kavadichindu format in Villinai Otha from 1960s, I cannot enjoy any other tune.

That Bharatiyar Songs Vol 1- is not a success as the other releases of MS. It was announced that there will be three volumes. But after Vol 1, the scheme was shelved- probably to make way for Pancharathnamala- I am not sure about this. I purchased this cassette, felt disappointed and gave it to somebody. Since then I have not heard that cassette or the songs. I distinctly remember Kalamam vanathil- a Kavadichindu in a lilting Anandabhairavi in that cassette. Hence I used the acronym obscure for Patdeep- not any dislike for that ragam.

mahavishnu
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by mahavishnu »

CRama wrote:
That Bharatiyar Songs Vol 1- is not a success as the other releases of MS. It was announced that there will be three volumes. But after Vol 1, the scheme was shelved- probably to make way for Pancharathnamala- I am not sure about this. I purchased this cassette, felt disappointed and gave it to somebody. Since then I have not heard that cassette or the songs.
Again, this is not true about the history of the recordings. They were made much after the series of Balaji Pancharatnamalas which were made for TTD. This particular recording was made at the request of Dr. SS. Badrinath as a fund raiser for Sankara Netralaya.
I purchased this cassette, felt disappointed and gave it to somebody. Since then I have not heard that cassette or the songs.
Well, I think the loss is yours. The version of kaRpaga vinAyaka and even the version of vande mAtaram is absolutely superb. And incidentally Kalamam vanathil from that album is not in Ananda bhairavi, but in Chenjurutti.

varsha
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by varsha »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC1Vm45zp1E
Ustad Bahauddin Dagar, Raag Patdeep Part 1
CRama . You may like this . If you like this you should also like a 105 mt essay by Nikhil Bannerji , on youtube

priyaram78
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by priyaram78 »

arasi wrote:
Priya,
Yet, like you, I would go with you in not wanting to mess around with the original intent of the composer. But who knows? BhArathi himself might have said 'balE pANDiyA!' to some of the new versions :)

Yes ofcourse Arasi Madam. Mahakavi was a person in love with everything because He saw his Nandalala in everything. Liking a song is based on
Many factors. Personally I have heard some versions of Kaakai Siraginile. All are good. If you get a rendition of this lovely song in kamAs raagam please send me. This Ragam or any related ragam or a ragam with the same feel would make this song a pleasure for me. The Shringara rasa in kamAs is what comes to my mind reading the lyrics. this song kaakai siraginile is so beautiful I am waiting for that perfect Ragam for me to feel bliss !

srini_pichumani
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by srini_pichumani »

Sivaramakrishnan Sir,

this is less about re-tuning to a different raagam, than resetting of some Svati Tirunal kritis...

I have only heard it said once that the Alathur Brothers sang Bhaavayaami very early on in all-Saveri, but dropped it after the Semmangudi retuning started getting popular. No confirmation of this elsewhere. I did however hear the old varnamettu -- opening line only. To my impatient ears back then (late 80s), it did not seem very different from the current version, but the person who sang it also said that he himself was overcome by the stamp of the new version ! It was in Adi tala though, if I remember right.

He -- Prof. Y.Sitaraman -- grew up in Trivandrum all along and was a direct witness to all the changes taking place from the 40s through the early 80s -- with the kritis, the changing relationships and the palace official intrigues, the sidelining of Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavatar, the ascendancy of the Semmangudi-KSN coterie with one of the palace official's (?) son rising later to be a key disciple, and their increasing claims to the guardianship of these kritis. At least that was his view of things.

But strictly on the music side, there were many well-known musicians who he interacted with closely including Prof.S.Ramanathan, Voleti, DKJ, Srikantan, R.Venkataraman (veena), K.S.Gopalakrishnan (Flute) etc and earlier still the great GN himself (when he was doing his Math PhD in Madras in the early 60s) -- some of them picked up certain Svati Tirunal kritis from him and his uncle Narasinganallur Narayana Bhagavatar who was a storehouse of Svati Tirunal and Dikshitar kritis.

[Jayalakshmi Santhanam maami told me on her first trip to the US in the early 90s, that she learnt music from NNB as a young girl in Trivandrum and learnt a lot more Dikshitar/Svati Tirunal kritis first, and Tyagarajaswami kritis only much later.]

NNB was an early direct disciple of Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavatar, many years senior to Madurai Mani Iyer, but a few years younger than C.S.Sankarasivam. HMB's tamburas were kept in their home in Trivandrum for a long time. He knew first-hand the Maharani's request to HMB to tune a bunch of ST compositions for which even raga markings were absent. This was not like other compositions for which either there were raga/tala markings or some rudimentary notation available or a Mullamoodu Bhagavatar version readily available.

Apparently, HMB pushed back first on tuning this set of kritis, but due to her insistence set them later in ragas of his choosing. Prof.Y.Sitaraman told me that Sri Kumaara Nagaraalaye and several other kritis emerged in this period... I didn't note or record all that he said back then, but apart from these he demonstrated ST's rAsavilAsa, ratnakanchuka dhArinI (HMB) etc. Prof.Y.Sitaraman also demonstrated the original Mullamoodu Bhagavatars' version of Mandara Dhara in Todi and the way it was reset later.

-Srini.

ps; As an aside, it was obvious from reading all the articles on Svati Tirunal in Sruti magazine in the 80s/90s that the Sruti magazine editors were reasonably innocent of many details, with their Madras-centric sources and limited research elsewhere. Plus it had also gotten very political with all kinds of retired Brigadiers, royalists and others entering the fray to battle the feisty Balachander and his views even after he was long gone !

Sitting here in a remote town in Kentucky, USA, was at least as authentic a source as any other who could have shed light on the resetting of many specific kritis !

srini_pichumani
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by srini_pichumani »

Harimau gAru,

just a comment -- Rallapalle Anantakrishna Sarma gAru is primus inter pares when it comes to tuning Annamacharya compositions, in many ways ahead of the Pani school musicians, Balamurali etc.

A great literatteur and careful/scholarly musician (disciple of Bidaram Krishnappa since his teens), RAS was involved from 1937 onwards with Annamacharya's compositions. He picked up on the work of Veturi Prabhakara Sastry which had been entirely literary -- editing/publishing the compositions from copper plates -- and set 87 compositions to music in Vol I of the Tallapaka Annamayya Paatalu published in 1952 -- there is a recent Music Academy Journal where a translation of RAS' Telugu foreword to this volume is published. In his own understated yet firm way, he has articulated the methodology he followed in setting these compositions to music.

The classic "brahma kaDigina pAdamu" (navanItam in Garimella Balakrishna Prasad's voice), "alarulu guriyaga" in Shankarabharanam, "sahaja vaiSNavAcAra" in sAmanta are all his varNameTTus, if I am not mistaken. Not sure if the dEs'ya sULAdi "anagatarE" is also his. When Prof.SRJ was here in the early 90s, he gave a couple of lec-dems on the subject and remarked on the yeoman service rendered first and foremost by Rallapalle gAru to Annamacharya's compositions !

-Srini.

ps: You mention mukhAri wrt "nAnATi bratuku nATakamu" -- I heard Balamurali gAru's version in Mukhari a long while ago... it is very beautiful and has a very rustic/folksy/dry but not dreary ring to it... you could almost imagine a jangama singing it with a ektAra walking through Ralla Seema.

Very different from the beautiful & moving, yet heavy air that Revati imparts to it. I have a feeling that Revati was chosen for its "Bairaagi Bhairav" connotation which too accords with the mood of the song !

CRama
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by CRama »

Mahavishnu. You said Kalamam vanathil is in Chenjuruti. I do not dispute. Because I heard it only once - before thirty five years, it has not stayed with me. But the same song MS Amma has sung in Anandabhairavi in a radio concert which is etched in my memory.

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

I remember to have heard 'kaalamaam vanatthil' from T K Govinda Rao and also from K S Narayanaswamy (Veena) in Misra Chaapu taala.
mahavishnu / CRama to kindly confirm the taala of this kaavadi chindu.

arasi
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by arasi »

srini_pichumani,
'muthudirndARpOl'...rare and precious are your posts, we long time Rasikas.org members know only too well...

Jayalakshmi Santhanam was lucky to learn from HMB himself a few songs. I didn't know about her learning from NNB as well!

harimau
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by harimau »

ramakriya wrote:The Mysore disease? Harimau, you could have come with a better word for sure!
The Mysore affliction? The Karnataka penchant?

Take your choice.

I can refer you to Roget's Thesaurus for words you may consider more appropriate.

But seriously, the Mysore Durbar did patronise a large number of musicians who did introduce a lot of Hindusthani ragas into CM. In fact, the version of Yamunakalyani (Krishna Nee Begane Baro is neither pure Hindusthani nor the version you hear in Jambupathe. So you do get a rendum kettan (the idiomatic English expression may be neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red herring) version of the raga! :lol: :lol: :lol:

PS. But I do like that version of the raga too!

bhakthim dehi
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by bhakthim dehi »

What is known is that the tuning of purandaradasar, annamayya etc krithis. What is probably lesser known is about 80 % of Thyagayyar krithis have been retuned ro the ragas that show its presence in sangraha chudamani. This is definitely a bitter fact and I very well expect a strong opposition from the forumites. A studyof older manuscripts, especially those of Valajapet disciples will prove this. A careful study also reveals that the schools does not differ between Thyagayyar and Dikshithar. I am not the first one to say this and definitely not the last one too.

harimau
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by harimau »

bhakthim dehi wrote:What is known is that the tuning of purandaradasar, annamayya etc krithis. What is probably lesser known is about 80 % of Thyagayyar krithis have been retuned ro the ragas that show its presence in sangraha chudamani. This is definitely a bitter fact and I very well expect a strong opposition from the forumites. A studyof older manuscripts, especially those of Valajapet disciples will prove this. A careful study also reveals that the schools does not differ between Thyagayyar and Dikshithar. I am not the first one to say this and definitely not the last one too.
Well, the Wallajapettai school has been historically looked down upon by the dominant Umayalpuram sishya parampara. The manuscripts of the Wallajapettai school differ from the Umayalpuram school in terms of raga names, etc., and is considered to be ridden with errors. The Thillaisthanam school has no known disciples left. -- at least, nobody who is performing in public. And the Thillaisthanam school is also not supposed to have been taught all the compositions of Thyagaraja, specialising in certain ragas and krithis totalling about 160 only.

As to differences between Deekshithar and Thyagaraja, it is accepted that Deekshithar composed using the asampoorna mela paddhathi whereas Thyagaraja composed using the sampoorna mela paddhathi. As such, theoretically they should differ from each other.

My two cents.

harimau
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by harimau »

arasi wrote:Ramakriya,
Though Harimau is up to date with many things, he has not seen (let alone heard) vol: 5 of my compositions sung by Gayathri Girish. She sings a paTdip song in that :)
Paattu Deepamaai Olirudhe! :D :D

Never assume anything about Harimau who has a wide net of informants. :ugeek:

Is the name of the raga Patdeep or Paatdeep?

Your song goes with the latter.

If it's the former, I think I have the Pallavi ready: Pattu Deepatthil Patri Eriyuthe. It will then be a song about a woman whose sari catches fire and thus will satisfy those musicians who are tired of singing songs in praise of gods. This will have the additional merit of addressing the contemporary evil of bride burning! :evil: :twisted: :roll:
Last edited by harimau on 24 Oct 2015, 02:45, edited 1 time in total.

harimau
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by harimau »

arasi wrote: CRama,
What do you think? If paTdIp is as alien as Harimau makes it out to be, how did behAg, bhAgESri (oh dear!), jOnpuri and Sindhubhairavi somehow get in--while he was on guard duty? :)
Ha, you forgot Todi (described as a Desiya raga) and Kalyani (described as music of the Turks and not fit for CM). It took the genius of Thyagaraja, Deekshithar and Syama Sastri to dress them up in 9-yard Kanchipuram silks and make them presentable south of the Vindhyas.

Jonpuri seems to have caught on in the 1940s with everybody and his brother trying to sing a tukkada in that raga!

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 539
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by bhakthim dehi »

@harimau : Well said regarding Valajapet disciples. They are overshadowed by Umayalpuram disciples.
@harimau: Your view is totally wrong regarding asampoorana and sampoorna paddhathi. Thyagayyar has composed in both navaneetham and nabhomani, vasanthabhairavi and vakulabharanam. I hope you got my point. He just preferred sampoorna scheme.
But, I didn't mean the melakartha scheme when I said their systems are similar. I was referring to the raga lakshanam. One simple example is balahamsa. Valajapet version of balahamsa (thyaggayar krithi in that raga) is very much similar to that of dikshithars guruguhaadanyam!!

harimau
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by harimau »

srini_pichumani wrote:Harimau gAru,

just a comment -- Rallapalle Anantakrishna Sarma gAru is primus inter pares when it comes to tuning Annamacharya compositions, in many ways ahead of the Pani school musicians, Balamurali etc.

The classic "brahma kaDigina pAdamu" (navanItam in Garimella Balakrishna Prasad's voice), "alarulu guriyaga" in Shankarabharanam, "sahaja vaiSNavAcAra" in sAmanta are all his varNameTTus, if I am not mistaken. Not sure if the dEs'ya sULAdi "anagatarE" is also his. When Prof.SRJ was here in the early 90s, he gave a couple of lec-dems on the subject and remarked on the yeoman service rendered first and foremost by Rallapalle gAru to Annamacharya's compositions !

-Srini.

ps: You mention mukhAri wrt "nAnATi bratuku nATakamu" -- I heard Balamurali gAru's version in Mukhari a long while ago... it is very beautiful and has a very rustic/folksy/dry but not dreary ring to it... you could almost imagine a jangama singing it with a ektAra walking through Ralla Seema.
I am sorry I didn't mention the yeoman service rendered by Rallepalli Ananthakrishna Sarma Garu in tuning Annamacharya compositions.

As to Alarulu guriyaga, I remember an incident during the release of a DVD on Dr Sripada Pinaapani Garu. The DVD by SwathiSoft said that this composition was tuned by Dr Pinakapani. Nedunuri Krishnamurthy Garu called the folks from SwathiSoft aside and said that it was his tune not his guru's and wanted the DVD corrected.

The way I hear it, Dr Pinakapani, after setting the tune, handed the notation over to Sri Nedunuri who, through his improvisations may have added several sangathis to it and thus felt it was rightfully his tune.

The tunesmithing by Dr Pinakapani, Sri Nedunuri, Sri Voleti, Sri Nookala Chinnasathyanarayaa, and by Dr Balamuralikrishna were undertaken after they were commissioned by the TTD who were most likely motivated to popularise Annamacharya's compositions. The earlier attempts in the late 1930s may well have been an academic exercise that didn't attract much attention.

There is no denying that it was the Balaji Pancharatnamala LPs that popuarised these compositions outside Andhra. Smt MS requested for notations from Dr Pinakapani and did sing Deva Devam Bhaje (incidentally, without the chitaswaram composed by Dr Pinakapani for that) and Vandeham Jagath Vallabham in those LPs. Equally, she got the Revathi version of Naanaati Bhrathuku from Sri Nedunuri whom she was supposed to have complimented by saying that such a tune by itself makes him deserving of the Sangeetha Kalanidhi, which he received later.

And yes, it was Sri SRJ who mentioned to me that the raga for that composition was indicated as Mukhari, and after singing a bit of it, asked if it wasn't a good match for the meaning of the song.

thanjavooran
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by thanjavooran »

Shri harimau

Thanx for sharing such valuable information.
Thanjavooran
24 10 2015

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by arasi »

Sorry for digressing, but Harimau with his antennae has found my song (which by the way is a song about an evening of worship, by humans and other creatures). A tranquil scene I had imagined.

Harimau,
However, your idea is apt for a poem. So, here it goes...

விளக்கிடவே ஒரு கவிதை
......................................

பட்டு தீபத்தில் பட்டெரிந்ததே--
பாட்டு நட்ட‌ நடுவில் நின்றதே :(

விளக்கெரிந்ததே அருகிலே--
தளுக்காய்த் தலைப்பு வீசியதில்--
பட்டு தீபத்தில் பட்டெரிந்ததே!

பாடியதோ தோடி, பட்டு தீபத்தில்
ஆடி அசைந்து பற்றிக் கொள்ள--
ஆர்ட்டு வர்க்குக்காக வாங்கியது
பார்ட்டு பார்ட்டாய்ப் போனதே :)

paTTu dIpathil paTTerindadE--
pATTu naTTa naDuvil ninRadE :(

viLakkerindadE arugilE--
thaLukkAi thalaippu vIsiyadil--
paTTu dIpathil paTTerindadE!

pADiyadO tODi, paTTu dIpathil
ADi asaindu paTRik koLLa--
ArTu varkkukkAga vAngiyadu
pArTu pArtAip pOnadE :(

No, not suitable for a song, nor is that graver atrocity you mention :(

harimau
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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by harimau »

arasi wrote:Sorry for digressing, but Harimau with his antennae has found my song (which by the way is a song about an evening of worship, by humans and other creatures). A tranquil scene I had imagined.

Harimau,
However, your idea is apt for a poem. So, here it goes...

விளக்கிடவே ஒரு கவிதை
......................................

பட்டு தீபத்தில் பட்டெரிந்ததே--
பாட்டு நட்ட‌ நடுவில் நின்றதே :(

விளக்கெரிந்ததே அருகிலே--
தளுக்காய்த் தலைப்பு வீசியதில்--
பட்டு தீபத்தில் பட்டெரிந்ததே!

பாடியதோ தோடி, பட்டு தீபத்தில்
ஆடி அசைந்து பற்றிக் கொள்ள--
ஆர்ட்டு வர்க்குக்காக வாங்கியது
பார்ட்டு பார்ட்டாய்ப் போனதே :)

paTTu dIpathil paTTerindadE--
pATTu naTTa naDuvil ninRadE :(

viLakkerindadE arugilE--
thaLukkAi thalaippu vIsiyadil--
paTTu dIpathil paTTerindadE!

pADiyadO tODi, paTTu dIpathil
ADi asaindu paTRik koLLa--
ArTu varkkukkAga vAngiyadu
pArTu pArtAip pOnadE :(

No, not suitable for a song, nor is that graver atrocity you mention :(
You are following in the footsteps of Sekkizhar and Muthuthandavar.

It is said that Sekkizhar had a major writer's block when he wanted to compose Periya Puranam. He prayed to Lord Siva at Kovur and heard the word Ulagelaam. He then composed the invocatory poem starting with that word and after which he could complete his magnum opus.

http://jeevagv.blogspot.in/2008/04/blog ... 7.html?m=1

Similarly, when Muthuthandavar was instructed to sing the praises of Lord Siva, he too wondered how he could compose songs. He was told to start his song with the first word he would hear upon entering the temple at Chidambaram. He did and after that he turned out to be a prolific composer.

You may not be aware of these legends as they are not part of the Vaishnavite lore. Muthuthandavar probably entered through the east entrance perhaps and thus didn't get to see the naamadharis singing the praise of Govindaraja Perumal. Otherwise his songs would have been in praise of Vishnu.

Anyway, what I mean to say is that the unseen hand of God guides poets. And you seem to follow their tradition! :twisted: :evil: :lol:

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by arasi »

'அரி' உரைத்து அறிந்துகொண்டேன், அதனுடன் அறியா ஓர் ப்ளாகையுமே! நன்றி...
'ari' uraithu aRindu koNDEn, adanuDan aRiyA Or blog-aiyumE. nanRi :D

CRama
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Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 16:58

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by CRama »

The latest to add to re tuning- Swati Tirunal's Paripahimam nrihare which is a song in Mohanam sung in Dharmavathy by TVG in Navarathri Mandapam. The concert is available in Sangeethapriya.

keerthi
Posts: 1309
Joined: 12 Oct 2008, 14:10

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by keerthi »

Harimau and Srini Pichumani,

Sangeeta Kalanidhi Rallapalli Anantakrishna Sarma published two volumes with a total of 108 [110?] compositions by the tALLapAka composers - Annamayya and his equally illustrious descendants. It is heartening to know that the Academy Journal published a translation of his introductory essay on Annammayya's compositions. It exemplifies his incisive erudition, wisdom, and humour. Equally precious are the rAgalakSaNa notes he appends, with brilliant insights on the genetic link between abhEri and Ahiri, through a common ancestral AbhIri; his exceptional notes on the trishruti rishabha in deshAkSi that still glimmers albeit vestigially in the homologous Bilahari and so on. Prof T.Shachi told me how he explained SalanganATa and mangalakaisika with illustrations, and taught her (unpublished) Annamayya sankirtanams in those rAgas, along with those in malahari, pADi and gundakriya (some of which Balamuralikrishan has sung per R.A.Sarma's notation).

Rallapalli garu was a repository of at least a thousand compositions, encompassing composers from the Trinity, Pallavi DorasAmayya, Kuppusamayya, Ksetrayya, down to the vAnamAmalai compositions and the exquisite mangalams of the Krishna brahmatantra Parakala yati in ragas like navaroj, saindhavi and an older mangalam in dvijAvanti.

It is fortunate that we have received at least some authentic lakSya interpretations of his understanding of raga-s like gauri, takka, gamakakriyA, manjI, mAdhavamanohari, from his children and disciples. Ditto for the sAranga, saindhavi, nAtakuranji [published] padams and the unpublished saveri padam of Ksetrayya.

I have found the tyAgarAja krtis from his repertoire to be models of excellent notations [in most part] that reflect a trans-scale understanding of raga-lakSaNa, and closely resemble authenticated walajapet and tillaistanam versions often.

He was the first [possibly the only] musician-scholar to undertake the task of critical edition of not just the text of songs, but also of their musical settings; and set right the Avarta asymmetry in songs like sogasuga mRdanga tAlamu, gauri girirAjakumAri and anupallavi of bhajare citta.


Rallapalli-gAru himself has bemoaned the retuning of the mAnji composition of tyAgarAja into 'nAgasvarAvali' in an early raga laksana discussion at the Academy. He must have heard the current version of abhimAnamu lEdemi, wehich is now sung in a reconstructed andhALi, with more of the g3. Rallapalli identifies his own version as karnAtaka kApi which is closer to the mAnji given in the saurASTra sabhA list.

So this changing of tunes business is pretty old.

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by shankarank »

The unseen hand of God can also be seen in the "gastronomy astronomy" line of arasi's poem for the 10th anniversary. What was billed as some irrational juxtaposition of words ( except for their rhyming) lost their surreal character if you consider that our astronomical fate is linked to gastronomy - i.e. if you believe in global warming :twisted: :evil: :lol: . Surreal poem losing it's surrealism - surreal!! :lol:

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by shankarank »

@harimau Malkauns has replaced Hindolam in this song and the original Hindolam has been renamed Varamu. Listen to Papanasam Sivan's Thunai Purindharul and you will hear the original tune of Manasuloni.

TNS has tried his hand at immortalizing the rAga by tuning "sA gA varamu(m) aruLvAi" of Bharati :) in Varamu - as he himself explained the motivation at a Chicago concert years back.

@Srinathk @harimau, So that was why Brinda Mukta sang Samaja Vara Gamana in what is now Varamu? And you do mean MS and MMI sang it with Chautshruti Dhaivatam, D2, right? Shuddha Dhaivatam is a D1.

TNS mentioned couple of Tid bits there: kancheepuram school sang in varamu. ARI sometimes sang in varamu and sometimes in current hindoLam.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by arasi »

shankarank,

Sir, how surreal some real moments seem!
Then, just those strange moments turn back
To nitty gritty, daily reality--Harimau to blame
For the wizardry* and 'way out' ways of his :)


*His being a font of info is also acknowledged...

harimau
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by harimau »

arasi wrote:'அரி' உரைத்து அறிந்துகொண்டேன், அதனுடன் அறியா ஓர் ப்ளாகையுமே! நன்றி...
'ari' uraithu aRindu koNDEn, adanuDan aRiyA Or blog-aiyumE. nanRi :D
I was just too lazy to try and type that poem Ulagelam in Tamil so went and looked for it on the web. I am sufficiently computer-illiterate that I couldn't cut and paste just the poem so gave the URL to the blog.

After that I googled and found your CD Paattu Deepamai Olirudhe is also available through a Google search, though a kindly soul had given me that CD to listen to some months after the CD release function.

Now I count Google among my informants. :lol:

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by arasi »

Join the club Wiz, but who cometh now?
Nicholas alas, frowning and fretting--
Google makes him, well ask him--but
For unlettered me, it is just grand...:)

munirao2001
Posts: 1334
Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by munirao2001 »

Shankar Vaidyanathan Sir,

Refer to your post #17 on 'cerebral process'. Please excuse me for posting a reply, albeit delayed. Intellect is ' seeking and establishing objectivity for abstract art form of music, with reason and logic and also communication establishing mental strength or power of ideation, imagination, discursive and resultant creativity. Musical genius is very much intellectual and cerebral, edifice built on saadhana of Kalpita sangeetham, lakshya and lakshana and mental training, practice and skills, urge and desire, high potential for Kalpana. To establish the uniqueness and extraordinary qualities, divine nature is invoked. Mind engulfed in musical thinking, created habits, tendencies and knowledge, conducive environment and support creating the urge or desire to meet one's own or induced (by other) inspiration, determination and will results in composing or tuning. Ability to recall and using the experience, knowledge, past or imagination of its unique variants or rarely happening in the present unrelated to the past. This rare happening in the present unrelated to the past, is recognized as 'beyond' and musical genius. Thus, this process and action is very much a cerebral process and is intellectual only.

munirao2001

srini_pichumani
Posts: 78
Joined: 24 May 2006, 11:29

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by srini_pichumani »

Arasi madam,

thank you for your kind words, but no, I am very much known to be garrulous ! Just check with L.Ramki ! It however does take me quite a while to get on this forum and hence I miss many a conversation. I do send emails to people sometimes much later on a topic when I finally catch up, including you, Prof.S.Pasupathy, ShankaranK, etc but they seem to have gone nowhere !!!

On Jayalakshmi Santhanam herself, I have only managed to hear her live once back in 1991 when she was visiting metro-Detroit. It was very much in DKP -style, with the stock accompanists of that area at that time, Jayashankar Balan on violin and C.P.Vishwanath (Sriram Parasuram's brother) on mridangam. I pestered her to sing at least one rare Dikshitar kriti and she obliged with "tyAgarAjam bhajarE" in Yadukulakambhoji.

-Srini.

srini_pichumani
Posts: 78
Joined: 24 May 2006, 11:29

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by srini_pichumani »

Harimau gurugaLE,

>>But seriously, the Mysore Durbar did patronise a large number of musicians who did introduce a lot of Hindusthani ragas into CM.

Other than the famous Muthiah Bhagavatar himself with his Gaudamalhar and Hamsaanandi/Sohini etc, is there really compelling evidence for this statement ? And particularly as it applies to the (re)tuning of Purandaradasa or other Dasakuta compositions ?

If anything, I have found the traditional renditions of Purandaradasa padas from Mysore/Bangalore folks, Madhwa folks, to be in very regular and sedate Carnatic ragas only -- from musicians as varied as the late R.K.Srikantan, V.Ramaratnam, Shashikiran who have a connection with Mysore, Ms. Gayatri Kassebaum who hailed from that region but studied Gottuvaadyam with Budalur in Kalashetra and was in the US early on, and amateur singers of the area (have a friend from near Krishnarajasagara who knows several compositions in old varNameTTus, all sounding very madi-sanchi !).

Maybe it is the Janasammodinis or "sugam-sangIt" type attempts at these kritis that bother you !
________________________________

On a diffferent note, even when there are multiple tunes for these padas, they seem acceptable & sound authentic in their own way.

To take 2 very well known padas, "gajavadana bEduvE" -- you can hear it in Kedaram (DKP, if I remember right, a very endearing rendition), Dhanyasi (T.K.Govinda Rao , heard at a Vishwa Madhva Sangha concert here in San Jose), and the popular Hamsadhvani heard around Madras and elsewhere -- I daresay the last one sounds the razzmatazz version !

Similarly," kELano hari tAlanO" -- the SuruTTi version seems commonly heard from Mysore, Srimushnam Raja Rao sir sings it in an extremely moving manner in Purvikalyani (this version sounds very traditional and devout as far as the approach to the lyrics go -- the raga choice may be modern, I don't know), and MLV sang it in Kalyani on a cassette recording in the early 1980s... in fact, once again, it is the last version that sounds more modern, but it is very beautiful too !
___________________________________

On YK and Krishna Nee Begane Baro, it is specifically the gooey-gooey Hindustani-ish Alapana prelude by the great not-Mysore Bala/T.Viswa that makes me cringe :) I always scratch my head as to why Viswa Sir feels compelled to play that way.

On the other hand, once the pada starts -- as heard in Narasimhulu's classic rendition on the Bala video from Wesleyan, or in the various dance snippets of Bala -- it is absolute nectar.

-Srini.
Last edited by srini_pichumani on 29 Oct 2015, 21:12, edited 2 times in total.

srini_pichumani
Posts: 78
Joined: 24 May 2006, 11:29

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by srini_pichumani »

Keerthi,

excellent points about RAS' scholarship, and several important details. There is a 3 minute interview of his where he tells his Telugu interviewer about the lack of availability of original tunes for Annamayya compositions and how Prof.V.Raghavan asked him to meet Pudukottai Gopalakrishna Bhagavatar for a few Tallapaka family compositions from the Bhajana sampradaya including the Todayamangalam. I don't remember whether it was the TTD website or the website on RAS himself that had it.

>> It exemplifies his incisive erudition, wisdom, and humour

Are you referring to the same introductory essay ? Yes, it does have all of these elements. Harimau would enjoy it !

>> Equally precious are the rAgalakSaNa notes he appends, with brilliant insights on the genetic link between abhEri and Ahiri, through a common ancestral AbhIri

It is the "onomastic (sic)" in him coming from a literary background, apart from the musical/historical scholar that he was, that must have impelled him to see this genetic connection.

It is actually a very productive enterprise to just take musical nomenclature prima facie, speculate on the possibilities with some care, and see where it leads one to. Harold Powers did something similar in a classic article that he wrote in Asian Music wrt H & C musics (1968)... the starting point of his article was the very basic, but at times detailed, comparison attempted by B,Subba Rao in his Raga Nidhi volumes for the Music Academy.

>> his exceptional notes on the trishruti rishabha in deshAkSi that still glimmers albeit vestigially in the homologous Bilahari and so on.

This is pretty much "Standard issue" in some SRJ lec-dems

>> Prof T.Shachi told me how he explained SalanganATa and mangalakaisika with illustrations

I am curious as to how he interpreted the "cyuta pancama" in mangalakaisika.

When I heard Shanta Subramaniam's LP or EP recording of "s'rI bhArgavI bhadram" of Dikshitar in Mangalakais'iki long ago, I found it very intriguing and talked to her and her sister Vani Jayaram, and enquired a little bit about their study with Kadalur Srinivasa Iyengar from whom they learnt these compositions -- at that time, they were stationed in Vellore after the WWII Japanese-bombing-Madras scare !

Vani Jayaram just sang off the top of her head s'rI dakSiNAmurtim and renuka devi samrakSitoham -- the interesting part was the graha svara in Kannada Bangala which she sang exactly as the Doctor ordered...

The only other person I have heard another correct interpretation of grahasvaram was from the incomparable Kalpagam maami, but that was for the grahasvaram in nAri-rItigauLa... it was in 1994. Having been weaned on DKJ's gunijanadinuta in Gurjari and the way he interpreted graha svaras, I almost made bold to ask Kalpagam maami if what she was doing was "correct" and indeed the way she learnt it growing up. [Only later did I get confirmation from N.Ramanathan's paper on "s'Astra and prayoga" at the World Sanskrit Conference in Leiden 1992, the volumes of which made it slowly to our library. In 1997, I showed a video of her rendering this to Prof.N.Ramanathan for whom it was a revelation that a continuous tradition of rendering the graha svara in the manner prescribed by Subbarama Dikshitar actually existed.]

>> taught her (unpublished) Annamayya sankirtanams in those rAgas, along with those in malahari, pADi and gundakriya

Of course, his careful study and scholarship of the SSP must have guided him well. What a difference between how much he got out of it versus RRI who says that he has been staring at it for 16 years in an article, but did nothing but rail about it at the end... he was otherwise great in his own way !

>> and closely resemble authenticated walajapet and tillaistanam versions often.

As regards Tillaistaanam, I for one prefer their "nenaruncarA" (as heard from Smt.Ranganayaki Parthasarathy and Ms.Hema) against DKJ's/Sowmya's etc which I hear is the Umayalpuram version -- again, these are beautiful too !

On Walajapet versus Umayalpuram, a humorous note:

In an interview, N.S.Krishnaswamy Iyengar, disciple of Naina Pillai, says that he met TiruppAmburam Swaminatha Pillai and asked him if he knew "dorakunA" in Bilahari and if he could teach him. TSP says OK, but then NSK asks him whose version it is -- when TSP says it is the Umayalpuram version, NSK abruptly recoils and says "enakku vaanaam" (thanks, no thanks !) in very Madras-tinged Tamil.

-Srini.

ps: But wrt "evari mATa" he says that when he asked Tiger for an opinion, Tiger told him to keep the Ariyakudi version NSK learnt first, as against his later teacher Naina's version, despite Tiger's fondness for Naina !

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by arasi »

srini,
Thanks for responding. You asked JS to sing one of my favorites of MD (muddu/Muthu)! Still waiting to hear it in a concert for that matter! At home, whenever I sing it, the song moves me just as it did when I first heard B.Rajam Iyer teach it to JS...

You, Keerthi and other experts make me feel awestruck. How much of all that I read I retain of what you all discuss is another matter :)

srini_pichumani
Posts: 78
Joined: 24 May 2006, 11:29

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Post by srini_pichumani »

>>the song moves me just as it did when I first heard B.Rajam Iyer teach it to JS...

That makes sense... since the way I got her to sing this kriti was offer B.Rajam Iyer's notation of this kriti from Swadesamitran in the 1950s as per TLV's pATAntaram, which she used to recall some details.

I do have a very good recording of her Aug 1991 concert on tape that I will be glad to loan to you or anyone who wants to listen/digitize/load up anywhere... or maybe her rendition of this kriti or the full concert is already available online ?

-Srini.

ps: BTW, her earlier guru in Trivandrum, NNB, was present at many sessions where TLV learnt Dikshitar kritis from Ambi Dikshitar. Apparently, HMB would be resting in an "easychair", with NNB at his feet, as his younger cousin TLV was learning from Ambi Dikshitar formally. NNB hence learnt the kritis by osmosis as well as took the opportunity to write down some kritis with notations of his own. That is how he acquired his enviable repertoire of Dikshitar kritis and passed it on to his nephew Prof.Y.Sitaraman (who JS knows well). Prof.YS went further and even did a mandala of puja as recommended by Kallidakuricchi Ramalinga Bhagavatar and learnt the mantra kriti directly from KRB.

Back in 1989, Kannikeswaran and the Dayton folks celebrated a Dikshitar day in the Dayton temple where Prof.YS gave an all-Dikshitar concert with some rare pieces. Kanniks and his group, for their part, sang several rare noTTu-svarams acquired from his pATTi who had learnt all 33 of them from Anantakrishna Iyer in Calcutta, if I remember right. Wonder what Kanniks is upto these days !

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