Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
pvs
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Joined: 21 Jan 2008, 19:28

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by pvs »

Thank you for posting the clips today and yesterday. I'm hooked onto the ragas clip. Cant stop!

Sreeni Rajarao
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 08:19

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by Sreeni Rajarao »

I am yet to listen to the recordings - I look forward to listening to them soon.

I wanted to say Thank you for your generosity, Varsha avare!

I also wanted to say I liked Srini Pichumani's post #91, especially "GurugaLE, thank you from the bottom of my heart !!! A beautiful recording !"
(Srini, I presume you have some good kannaDiga friends from whom you picked up that GurugaLE part!)

Indeed Varsha avaru is a Guru - I have learned much from him in the last 10 years (Yes! I joined the Forum in 2006 summer!)

Sreeni Rajarao

varsha
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Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

Thank you for posting the clips today and yesterday. I'm hooked onto the ragas clip. Cant stop!
I discovered only yesterday
Cant stop! :D

pvs
Posts: 210
Joined: 21 Jan 2008, 19:28

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by pvs »

can't get past the first raga sometimes! 'Enneramum' ketkalaam... Please share more of these

Rsachi
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by Rsachi »

N S Chidambaram is the composer. Lyric:
Paripuraniye Manonmaniye
By N. S. Chidambaram

Pallavi

Paripooraniye, manonmaniye,
Papa vinasiniye, yen thaye

Anupallavi

Parivodu inda parinai yellam,
Paripalithu idum para Shakthi Om

Charanam

Nithya niranjani nirmala Kalyani
Neela mani jaya geervani,
Sathiya jnana Jyothiswaroopini,
Sama rasa jnana sunadavinodhini

arasi
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by arasi »

Thank you Sachi for the swiftness with which you brought the lyrics!

We could do it diacritically so that mistakes are not made by tamizh and non-tamizh singers.

Interesting, how more rAgA names happen in the song :)

varsha
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

Thanks for identifying

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

Any biography of Mayavaram Rajam available? Finding mostly audio clips on google and wikipedia article on his Guru.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

If Manambuchavadi Venkatasubba Ayyar had the credit of moulding the 'Pancha Ratnas' (five gems
of eminent musicians), Simizhi had his disciple-gems in Mudicondan Venkatarama Ayyar, Tiruvarur
Rajayee, Mayavaram Rajam, Flautist Rajarama Ayyar, Mayavaram Govindaraja Pillai and Harmonist S.S.Mani.
From A GARLAND
If a couple of concerts will assuage pain of failing to find more , let me know :P
you can expect an elaborate kannadagowla kriti to supplement the raga inputs :)

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

Another couple lines from the foreword (of Another Garland):
To all future time, not only doth restore
His life, but makes that he can die no more."

vilomachapu
Posts: 81
Joined: 06 Jan 2016, 17:20

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vilomachapu »

If Manambuchavadi Venkatasubba Ayyar had the credit of moulding the 'Pancha Ratnas' (five gems
of eminent musicians)
Who were these Pancharatna disciples of Manambuchvadi, please?

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

'Five Gems' of Manambuchavadi Venkatasubba Ayyar:
Maha vaidyanatha Ayyar
Patnam Subramania Ayyar
Tyagaraja, grandson of Tyagaraja
Sarabha Sastri and
Fiddle Venkoba Rao were the top disciples of Venkatasubba Ayyar.
Source A Garland
N RAJAGOPALAN

vilomachapu
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Joined: 06 Jan 2016, 17:20

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vilomachapu »

Sarabha Sastri
He's the problem. Sarabha Sastri was born only in 1870 (died 1902 at age 32). I wonder whether Manambuchavadi would have lived that long, i.e., at least until 1885 or so to teach Sarabha Sastri. Manambuchavadi was besides being a disciple of Thyagaraja was his own aunt's son, so he might not have been very much younger to Thyagaraja. (1767 to 1847)

KNV1955
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Joined: 22 Oct 2012, 21:29

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by KNV1955 »

Rich classical silky brigga voice. Somewhat like Ramnad Krishnan. Thanks Varsha for the treat

GautamTejasGaneshan
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by GautamTejasGaneshan »

Years ago I wrote an essay including the following paragraphs about bhakti in CM.

This was to justify a project called "New Directions in Indian Classical Music,"
which was commissioned by the San Francisco Foundation
and active from 2008 - 2010.

(Here's more about that: http://gautamtejasganeshan.com/newdirections.html, including the following disclamatory afterword - "Essentially, it was a project to render Carnatic music as free-improvised, "pure" music. As if the music needed freeing or purifying. Now "new directions" is no more, and some other directions prevail. But for your interest, and as a record, here's a bunch of info about it.")

--

"What originated as a spontaneous musical outpouring of bhakti ("devotion") now typically occurs as a recitation of centuries-old material that may or may not reflect the personal convictions of the musician, and especially may or may not be relevant to a diverse worldwide audience with every capacity to experience the same wonder and awe as Tyagaraja did, but perhaps with little affinity for Lord Rama, his ishta-devam, much less an ability to understand his understated poetry in the Telugu language. This can place an upper bound on the integrity of the performance, and sometimes makes self-important virtuosic vehicles out of paeans originally written with such humility, intelligence, and fervor.

The realities of the new global context for this (and all) traditional music strain the original cultural coherence of artist and audience, with the effect that the central aesthetic value of this music, its subtle expression of universal human sentiment, is difficult for many new listeners to discover within the disorientation of "This is not my music" or "I don't speak that language" - especially in the case of Carnatic music, which has struggled to attain wider appeal with its focus on vocal repertoire in regional languages (even though it's awesome, right?)."

(That last parenthetical links to:
http://www.medieval.org/music/world/carnatic/cmc.html)

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

Several issues are raised there:

>>"diverse worldwide audience"
Before we simply say diverse it becomes pertinent to examine what kind of diverse audience we are talking about - what are their belief systems if any - and what are the tenets behind those belief systems etc. That will take us beyond just talking about this as just music!

>>"But perhaps with little affinity for Lord Rama, his ishta-devam":

Continuing from the above it becomes necessary to examine why this would present a problem? what ishta-daivam means? etc etc!!

The aesthetics of Carnatic music is so valuable and beautiful - yes - that we are made to wonder why it should not reach a lot of people. But it seems we assume that every other music of yore has the ability and reach to affect anybody at random.

You can see what the West is doing : http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/ ... ition.html

The military - industrial complex will do what it takes at home - but will run liberal arts programs in ivy-leagues to confuse the rest of the democratic population!- can we call it aestheticization of power? :evil:

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

GautamTejasGaneshan wrote:
This can place an upper bound on the integrity of the performance, and sometimes makes self-important virtuosic vehicles out of paeans originally written with such humility, intelligence, and fervor.
"integrity of the performance" sounds like an oxymoron.
The realities of the new global context for this (and all) traditional music strain the original cultural coherence of artist and audience, with the effect that the central aesthetic value of this music, its subtle expression of universal human sentiment, is difficult for many new listeners to discover within the disorientation of "This is not my music" or "I don't speak that language" - especially in the case of Carnatic music, which has struggled to attain wider appeal with its focus on vocal repertoire in regional languages (even though it's awesome, right?)."
Yes. Some amount of effort is required of the listener.

kvchellappa
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Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

I just read in 'Violin Playing as I teach it' by Leopold Auer:
"Whenever I had an opportunity of hearing Joachim play, I always felt as though he were a priest, thrilling his congregation with a sermon revealing the noblest moral beauties of a theme which could not help but interest all humanity."

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

kvchellappa wrote:I just read in 'Violin Playing as I teach it' by Leopold Auer:
"Whenever I had an opportunity of hearing Joachim play, I always felt as though he were a priest, thrilling his congregation with a sermon revealing the noblest moral beauties of a theme which could not help but interest all humanity."
The institutionalized faiths have inspired many to think outside the box and always think of separation. It is explained in first 3 - 5 minutes in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGL8SesIo6Y

GautamTejasGaneshan
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by GautamTejasGaneshan »

@sureshvv
"integrity of the performance" sounds like an oxymoron.
I see what you mean, if you're pointing out that "performance" can mean "just for show," and hence inherently sort of fake (according to this view, i.e. not long on "integrity.") I take it this is roughly the same as Plato's grievance against poets & actors - that in not telling, or being able to tell, the truth (in comparison with philosophers), their doings are immoral.

Here, though, I meant performance more casually, like just a concert. So, "integrity of the performance," as I meant it, just refers to the "does the guy really mean it" factor, which I do think is a legible concept, and something worth considering.

Now, this essay overall I wrote many years ago, and probably wouldn't write it the same way now. So I'm not standing by all its statements with adamantine fervor. It's just food for thought at this point.
Yes. Some amount of effort is required of the listener.
Correct. You've gotta learn Chinese to appreciate the subtleties of Chinese poetry, no question.

But I think we can distinguish language fluency from aesthetic appreciation. Translation of literature, for instance, is not useless - on the grounds that "Well, people should just put in the effort to profit from reading the original only." The extreme version of this attitude is not found in Hinduism, I believe.

So, first of all, translation itself is an art worthy of being appreciated, as A. K. Ramanjuam would have it. (And meanwhile I re-emphasize that what I am doing is NOT translation. Unless, once again, we're speaking figuratively, like "translation of the experience of intuitively understanding the song text.")

And second, my original point was more that what is valuable about the music - that is, absolutely not "dumbed down" (as I take it you too are arguing for, in endorsing listener effort) - is sometimes not served by lyrics, especially when the lyrics are not understood, or even cared to be understood. I think on this point, taken in itself, I would have the support of half of rasikas.org.

And in fact I gave two years of concerts with no words at all, as a case in point.
A "performance" of the point, even. ;)
(I encountered limitations, which are another topic perhaps.)

The point is, I don't think learning Telugu is necessarily part of the "effort" needed to understand CM. YES - understanding does bolster appreciation, no doubt, and in fact one could argue that only native speakers really get the full effect. I, for one, always learn the meanings of songs. And you know what I find? CM lyrics are a beautiful world of bhakthi and poetry, but once in a while the emperor is wearing no clothes! I don't consider them sacrosanct revelations from a trance - I'm pretty sure they're just basically hard work, artistry, and dedication. They have certainly evolved in being handled, for one thing. (sometimes improving, sometimes being lost.)

Bhakthi sometimes looks like a day job.
Just ask any parent, for example.

So anyway, more prattlings in a well from me...

- G

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

Thanks G. Appreciate the prattlings :-)

Followed most of your response, except
Bhakthi sometimes looks like a day job.
Just ask any parent, for example.
May be you can elaborate. Being a parent my curiosity is piqued :-)

Agree with most of what you write.

A carnatic performance is designed to move the rasika. A good performer uses all the tools at his/her disposal.
Being aware of the mood that is being evoked is a primary strength. The best performers are instinctively and
acutely aware of the the rasika's mind. I don't know where "integrity" fits in. It must. May be you can explain :-)

Learning Telugu is not necessarily needed to understand CM. Even knowledge of the
ragas or talas is not required, Many rasikas are content with enjoying the melodic aspects and not curious about
the laya or lyrical aspects. But a good carnatic performance can press the right buttons to raise your awareness of the
beauty behind all of these aspects. CM is a bottomless well.

PS: I hope none of what I wrote discourages you. I appreciate your dedication to the art and your effort to make it your own,

GautamTejasGaneshan
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by GautamTejasGaneshan »

sureshvv wrote:
Bhakthi sometimes looks like a day job.
Just ask any parent, for example.
May be you can elaborate. Being a parent my curiosity is piqued :-)
Me too (parent.)

What I meant literally is that sometimes the "devotion" of being a parent takes the form of cleaning up messes and losing sleep, not necessarily always emotional raptures.

What I meant in context, by analogy, was that some people's hagiographic rear view mirror makes them think our saint composers were composing under the influence of some inscrutable source of inspiration, the method of accessing which must be lost in the sands of time, unavailable in our modern age, which is further descended into kali yuga, or something.

Whereas in fact I think mystical insight is timeless (i.e. available now too), and tends to stun its recipients with its utter ordinariness - basically that "This is it." As in, you want to write a timeless song? Do the work, just like it seems - no magical shortcuts. This is it. So, "de-mystifying" songwriting in CM, to me, does not mean underestimating the quality of the output, but simply acknowledging that it's not something only demigods are capable of.

Suppose Thyagaraja showed up at his Aradhana in Cleveland, for instance, or even Thiruvaiyar, for that matter. Don't you think one possible response he might have is "Why are you still just singing my songs predominantly? Why hasn't anybody else loved Rama as personally as I did and felt like writing lots of songs about it? I suppose this means I actually failed to convey the love I experienced, if nobody since has been as moved as I was to create because of it!"

I guess I'm responding in part to the tone I perceived in another comment elsewhere about the "meaningful and deep" lyrics in CM, which was posted in criticism of my own songs, as if that's it, the possibilities of meaning and depth were available only in the 18th century and are now foreclosed, or are only possible with respect to your ishta devam and not mine, etc.
sureshvv wrote: The best performers are instinctively and acutely aware of the the rasika's mind. I don't know where "integrity" fits in. It must. May be you can explain :-)
Or, maybe we should ask the "best performers" instead. ;)
sureshvv wrote: PS: I hope none of what I wrote discourages you. I appreciate your dedication to the art and your effort to make it your own.
Absolutely not. Your comments are well-taken. And to be quite blunt, I'm not doing it primarily for your sake anyway. "Janaranjakam" ought to be a byproduct, and that too there is no such thing as "Sarvajanaranjakam."

(I hope you know what I mean and take this in the right spirit.)

- G

rshankar
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by rshankar »

GautamTejasGaneshan wrote: Me too (parent.)

What I meant literally is that sometimes the "devotion" of being a parent takes the form of cleaning up messes and losing sleep, not necessarily always emotional raptures.
- G
Sort of what love is - work! As this song eloquently says: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h_y9F5St4j0

VK RAMAN
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by VK RAMAN »

Opinions are Opinions as such. So are impressions and views are ones own. The artist should sing to once own satisfaction; trying to please others IMO is waste of effort. Listeners enjoyment must be the bye product.

vgovindan
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

The whole issue of bhakti and a musician being expected to be a bhakta in order to deliver the song in the way it is intended by the composer, is totally wrong. There are but only nine rasas of which the most dominant rasas in any musical system is kAruNyam -SrngAram. There are very few compositions in other rasas which have withstood the time - they are much momentary in nature. The all-pervading karuNA rasa be it in Indian, Christian, Sufi etc is undeniable.

All that the artist is expected to do is to bring that emotion to the fore in the lyrics. He is not expected to be a bhakta.

It is all nice to talk of global audience. But basic human emotions and their response has not undergone an iota of change. Therefore,let us not deride the ever-lasting appeal of karuNa rasa.

CM drift away from bhakti - is a totally misconceived topic. CM artists may or may not have inclination to go by the core concept of 'communication' through the form of music. All the talk of 'those who want lyrics, let them go to bhajana', is nice.
In Sanskrit, there are two terms - lakshana, lakshya. Today's CM is just lakshana music and nothing to do with lakshya. In our days we used to taught by Tamil Pandits about the misapplication of language - 'sukkumi-laguti-ppili' (சுக்குமி-ளகுதி-ப்பிலி) - Today's CM musicians just belong to this category- there may be exceptions - they may please pardon me.

Somewhere else, someone questioned as to how ashThapadi came to be sung in musical circuits. I responded that ashThapadi is one of the most famous items in bhajana sampradaya and that it could have 'percolated' to CM from there. Yes, CM is not the master - it is but the parrot. The master has always been - and will always be elsewhere to pour out their hearts in search of that 'anurAga' - the universal love.

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote:In Sanskrit, there are two terms - lakshana, lakshya. Today's CM is just lakshana music and nothing to do with lakshya.
Requires sAdhana in a multi disciplinary level - for e.g recitation of verses of beauty in any of the relevant languages - make the tongue exercise all the consonants. vEdic recitation also helps. Then develop sensitivity towards where the words are split appropriately etc.

I would put a stake on the ground and claim that MDR for all his mazhalai - had internal spashTa in his renditions - that is the observation I make carefully listening - not intended as hagiography.
vgovindan wrote:CM artists may or may not have inclination to go by the core concept of 'communication' through the form of music. All the talk of 'those who want lyrics, let them go to bhajana', is nice.
But then I was told once by a traditionalist who took sanyAs later on that - Bhajana and unca vriddhi use to be prescribed as a route path for those who cannot cope up with vEdic learning ( :?: :roll: ). Don't know if it is showing progress in remembering and reciting. In fact on a related matter there is something I remember from Muthiah Bhagavathar's biography that somebody in his family ( parent or uncle) was not so pleased with him taking to music.

So you could see how different traditions viewed each other!

This is not directly about bhakti or the mood or appeal the music conveys etc. More about showing sincerity to the traditional constructs and honoring tradition.

The bigger issue is musicians ( TMK in an interview to a Tamizh magazine) claiming in interviews that "tyAgarAja has anyway split the words arbitrarily in between and laid out his music and hence his intent was just music ( as in music as only art!) and not any religious intent" - bringing in the separation factor from modern discourse and divining an intent on a composer!.

When there are musicians like Dr BMK who - if you listen to the renditions like sundari nI - bring in their control on layam to the hilt and split / pause and produce art out of language's own constraints!!

And this applies to MDR too - listen to his kaliki yuntE on how he handles kalini ingita merugaka ( lyric referenced from http://sahityam.net/wiki/Kaligiyunte_Kada) - arudi happens after meru - but for MDR "merugaka" stays one word and as a result more music produced at the pause and ninnAdu konti - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMg97bkonms 1:44:09. tyAgaraja has provided for so much viSrAnti to do this. This is not the way rendered usually by others where there is a rhythmic pause ( bad translation of yati viSrama :lol: ) at meru to make it symmetric to the rhythmic structure of next line.

We just mixed up form and substance on several questions like what is tradition! We cannot tell the difference !

vgovindan
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

shankarank wrote: But then I was told once by a traditionalist who took sanyAs later on that - Bhajana and unca vriddhi use to be prescribed as a route path for those who cannot cope up with vEdic learning ( :?: :roll: ). Don't know if it is showing progress in remembering and reciting. In fact on a related matter there is something I remember from Muthiah Bhagavathar's biography that somebody in his family ( parent or uncle) was not so pleased with him taking to music.
This is a total mis-conception about bhajana mArga - unca vRtti accompanied or not. If someone takes to bhajana mArga as a profession to fend for oneself, it is not wrong per se. He can progress step by step and engage in bhajana for one's own sake (not for one's welfare). But when that becomes the end, then the total picture gets distorted.
The bigger issue is musicians ( TMK in an interview to a Tamizh magazine) claiming in interviews that "tyAgarAja has anyway split the words arbitrarily in between and laid out his music and hence his intent was just music ( as in music as only art!) and not any religious intent" - bringing in the separation factor from modern discourse and divining an intent on a composer!.
Obnoxious and audacious! Only a person conceited about himself can make such a statement. May God Bless him with better sense.

Some times I keep wondering about those who say to their lady love "I love you". Shah Jahan who married eleven times and built Taj Mahal can boastfully say 'I love you' to Mumtaj. But then Sri Rama - Eka patni vrata in the midst of polygamy even by his own father - can also say 'I love you' to sItA. Which is real? You make your own assessment.

Tyagaraja comes in the latter category and the musicians who sing Tyagaraja kRtis for sangati sake come in the former category. Good Luck!

nA jIvAdhAra! nA nOmu phalamA!

rAjIva lOcana! rAja rAja SirO-maNi! (nA)

nA cUpu prakASamA! nA nAsikA parimaLamA!
nA japa varNa rUpamA! nAdu pUjA sumamA!
tyAgarAja nuta (nA)

PS : It is not fair to say that all the Tyagaraja Kritis are inspirational. There are many kRtis where one can find word-play. But surely the inspirational kRtis, like the one given above, are not sangati-centric.

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: It is not fair to say that all the Tyagaraja Kritis are inspirational. There are many kRtis where one can find word-play. But surely the inspirational kRtis, like the one given above, are not sangati-centric.
Lots of erroneous generalizations based on your individual taste.

In defense of TMK, the word-play you refer to is often of the "sukkumi-laguthi-pili" kind. In my view it is posed as a challenge to musicians and the good ones acquit themselves well (like shankaran has pointed out).

kvchellappa
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

From an article in The Hindu:
Lars Fredriksson: When asked what drew him to the art form (CM), he simply states, “The religious music: it channels out into total joy.”

RSR
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

Carnatic music system is generally accepted as having been systematized by Purandhara Dasa ( 1500 AD.. the time of Krushna Deva Raya, Vijayanagar empire ). . Later, during the years of East India Company ( 1750-1850), ( there may or may not be any connection) , The Trinity, Sadasiva Brammendram and Swathi ThirunaL, gave us thousands of kruthis. ...While basic stratum of classical music , according to my strongly held view, is pure 'harmony of swaras ', not needing any words, CM is what has been handed down to us by the above mentioned composers and they were all Vaishnavite poets. possibly inspired by Sri.Ramanuja ( 1100 AD).and Madhvacharya. .. Thus, it is not wrong to conclude that CM is essentially Bakthi-oriented. 'Sangeetha Gnyanamu Bakthi vina?'... It so happened for some reason that all the above main composers gave us the compositions in kannada ,telugu or sanskrit. ( though a few are in thamizh and Malayalam..just a few, very few. ). Not one of these composers was agnostic or secular. Dikshithar perhaps was ' vedhanthic' but that also includes Vaishava bakthi. .
The issue is not about the artistes. It is about the main composers and the theme of their compositions. It then is definitely Theism of a definite Hindu / Vaishanavite orientation. preaching Bakthi Margam irrespective of caste. It was not just crude Bajan however. Though it served an ideological purpose, it captured the hearts of millions by the excellence of the lyrics, and music. CM cannot be and should not be secular. My suggestion is that all young students of CM should learn the languages of these composers (ie) Telugu, Kannada and Sanskrit . and really develop a theistic mindset and understand the kruthis to render with bhaavam. 'Thamizh Isai' movement might have , caused harm to CM, inadvertently.
.. The aim of any Art form should be to liberate us from the evils which are clearly mentioned in Gita. . Let us exclude erotic music for ever. Generation gap is just an illusion. It is just lack of awareness caused by consumerist culture and 'secular' themes of poets and writers of the present era. A Renaissance should occur and it will begin with re-assertion with language, theme and mood of the original composers in CM. .

RSR
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

#127...Sri.V.Govindan....
Some times I keep wondering about those who say to their lady love "I love you". Shah Jahan who married eleven times and built Taj Mahal can boastfully say 'I love you' to Mumtaj. But then Sri Rama - Eka patni vrata in the midst of polygamy even by his own father - can also say 'I love you' to sItA. Which is real? You make your own assessment.

Tyagaraja comes in the latter category and the musicians who sing Tyagaraja kRtis for sangati sake come in the former category. Good Luck!
..SPLENDID, Sir

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote:Let us exclude erotic music for ever.
So our children will read those things from Enid Blyton and others?. Which describes any ugly character as dark skinned?. They won't read Mahabharata where dark skinned Draupadi is described as a beautiful woman?

Don't think that this is some diaspora issue or a convent school thing. Enid Blyton was a good read by my classmates in my school - unaided CBSE not run by missionaries!

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: It is not fair to say that all the Tyagaraja Kritis are inspirational. There are many kRtis where one can find word-play. But surely the inspirational kRtis, like the one given above, are not sangati-centric.
Lots of erroneous generalizations based on your individual taste.

In your mind, "sangati-centric" seems to be the opposite of "inspirational". I beg to differ. Inspirational can appeal to all your different faculties - intelligence, emotion, humor, spirituality. "Word-play" should not be dismissed as trivial.

sankark
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sankark »

I think this discussion has branched, moved side ways, meandered and what not.

But going to the title of the post - sometimes it makes sense to reframe the question. In this case, ask not "Is CM drifting away from bhakti?", but ask "Should CM be shackled to bhakti/bhakti centric?"

vgovindan
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

sankark wrote:"Should CM be shackled to bhakti/bhakti centric?"
There are only two rasas (of navarasa) - karuNa and SRngAra - which have universal appeal. vAtsalya bhAva and SAnta bhAva essentially form part of karuNa rasa. Of these two, SRngAra cannot be taken beyond certain level. The universe hinges on Love which manifests as physical laws. Therefore, human imagination excels in this rasa only. Every other rasa is just transitory in nature and even if songs are created in them, they do not stand the test of time. Efforts have been made even in this forum to have 'secular' themes - all just BusvANam. Those who want to challenge the system of CM, may just try their hand.

I can understand the mindset of 'intellectuals' who detest theism and the connected compositions. The artist is simply neutral to every bhAva - all that he has to do is express that bhAva. He may be a total atheist. Will a woman surgeon object to carry out surgery on a male? Same is the case with artist. He is only a medium to express a bhAva in its true spirit as envisaged by the composer.

ayaṁ dharmaḥ sarveṣām bhūtānām madhu; asya dharmasya sarvāṇi bhūtāni madhu; yaś cāyam asmin dharme, tejomayo'mṛtamayaḥ puruṣaḥ, yaś cāyam adhyātmaṁ dhārmas tejōmayo'mṛtamayaḥ puruṣaḥ, ayam eva sa yo'yam ātmā, idam amṛtam, idam brahma, idaṁ sarvam.

The law that operates outside is the law of the cosmos. There are no two laws – God's law and man's law; universal law and individual law. No such thing is there. Such thing as 'my law' or 'your law' does not exist. There is only one law operating everywhere, in all creation, visible or invisible, in all realms of being. The same law is there for the celestials, the humans and the subhuman creatures. Everyone is controlled by a single principle of ordinance. That is called Dharma. It operates as gravitation in the physical level; it operates as love in the psychological level; it operates as chemicals in the chemical level and it operates as integration of thought in our mental level, the level of cognition and thinking. It ultimately operates as the connecting link between the subject and the object, on account of which there is knowledge of anything at all. That is called Dharma. Dharma is an integrating force of anything that is even apparently in disparity. Anything that is disconnected, apparently isolated, not visibly connected, is actually connected, and that connecting principle is called Dharma. And Dharma becomes an integrating principle because of the presence of the ātman that is behind it. There is no such thing as Dharma independent of the operation of the ātman. What you call Dharma or law is the ātman working. Its own law is its Being; its Being is its law; they are not two different things.
madhu vidyA - Swami Krishnananda - http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/brdup ... II-05.html

Mohd Rafi - a great Hindi singer has sung numerous songs in bhakti theme. Does it mean that he has adopted Hinduism and is a bhaktA. There is a total misconception about the relationship between the artist and the art he displays

vgovindan
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

Deleted being duplicate.

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

sankark wrote:"Should CM be shackled to bhakti/bhakti centric?"
That sounds like a pollsters trick. Frame the question to elicit leading responses to skew opinion polls. Numbers speak! people say. Lies, Damn lies and statistics!
vgovindan wrote:vAtsalya bhAva and SAnta bhAva essentially form part of karuNa rasa
SAnta rasA : isn't this the absence of all the other 9 rasas? Cannot be a subject of nATya as it cannot be shown through abhinaya?

Bharata's mention of adRSTa phala provided by sangIta vs the nATya has this 10th one as the missing puzzle. If viSrAnti - the canvas of silence is brought in - we get a parallel with consciousness - the blank space - the daharakASa on which all other raSAs play. If nATya can successfully bring all of the 9 rasAs - sangIta which has limitations can instead expose a glimpse of this silence - for which immense sAdhakam is required to show the contrast.

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote:Mohd Rafi - a great Hindi singer has sung numerous songs in bhakti theme. Does it mean that he has adopted Hinduism and is a bhaktA. There is a total misconception about the relationship between the artist and the art he displays
An appeal to some emotional surge in some form is inadequate to define the roots of traditional music. This is simply a case of taking some surface cosmetics for quickly appealing to lot of people - an escape route. Still for a listener who is yet to get used to physical sound of music - this may be a conduit to his conditioning.

Also bringing in belief systems into this discussion is a distraction. If we really proceed theologically - relevant questions that may come up may be - is the sacredness or inherent divinity of letters, svaras and mAtras compatible with a given belief system and is it part of its history and theology?

RSR
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

The topic is about CM and not about general theory of music. I had mentioned that CM has been defined by the compositions of Purandhara Dasa, The Trinity, Sadasiva Brammendram, Swathi Thirunal. and even if we consider the kruthis of Annamacharya, ( he is supposed to have created many romantic kruthis.. rather explicit, but about the Lord Venkateswara and his consort). , it cannot be gainsaid that all of them are theistic. . Prior to the Trinity, we had the Thamizh Trinity and two of them sang on Lord Nataraja. while Arunachala kavi sang on Lord Rama. So did Gopalakrushna Barathy, Suddhananda Baharathy, and many others. ...So called romantic creations like Javali, also are mostly on God in an indirect way.
We keep saying that the vocalists should sing with Bhavam and it is not possible unless he enters into the spirit of the theistic composers , not in an abstract intellectual plane but in sublime emotional plane as does Jesudas. For singers who are deeply spiritual, it is quite possible to enter into the respective religious system while rendering the kruthi. be it Saaktham, Koumaaram, Gaanapathyam, Saivam, Vaishanavam . Vedanayagam Pillai has created compositions common to all religions. though he was a Christian. .
Jesudas though born a Christian, was a disciple of venerable Chembai and today, S.P.Balasubramanyam has performed Paadha Poojai to Jesudas. This is just wonderful. Hence my submission that, for a really soulful rendering of CM kruthis by major composers, a definite theistic mindset and reverence is essential. Many patriotic songs of our Independence movement also were considering Mother India as divine. . (ex- Jayathi Jayathi Bharatha Matha) . This is supposed to be music season in Chennai and is it possible for any vocalist to completely avoid theistic kruthis? Can you imagine any vocalist singing 'manmatha leelaiyai vendraar?' in a concert?
It is a very good thing that CM is 'shackled' to Hindu religion.. especially Vaishnavam. If we want to bring back the glory of CM , and win back our youth from film and tv craze , we must assert the Devotional aspect of CM and give more importance to such kruthis, which are based on lord-dasa, mother-child, theme than nayaka-nayaki bhavam.
WISHING ALL FORUM MEMBERS 'HAPPY NEW YEAR 2017'

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

You all seem to be in violent agreement :)

girish_a
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by girish_a »

sankark wrote:In this case, ask not "Is CM drifting away from bhakti?", but ask "Should CM be shackled to bhakti/bhakti centric?"
Carnatic music is religious music. Attempts to bring in secular aspects to Carnatic music will only go so far. To be sure, saints like Purandara Dasa, Kanaka Dasa and Tyagaraja have composed songs deriding narrow mindedness, bigotry and other evils in society, but those compositions still serve to highlight the fact that Bhakti is the antidote societal evils, and don't deal with the latter in isolation.

But this is not to say that the Raga system cannot be used for non-religious aspects. The Raga was invented to express human moods and emotions, and emotions obviously span a wide range of feelings and are not confined to the religious.

So why this attempt to force-fit the non-religious into the Carnatic framework? Square peg in a round hole, in my opinion.

I think the confusion arises because of the failure to recognize that Ragas can exist apart from Carnatic. Carnatic cannot exist without Ragas, but Ragas can.

PS: But you may have a point. One can reasonably ask: Does Neraval (as it is performed today) evoke Bhakti? Does technical jugglery evoke Bhakti?

kvchellappa
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

We see this trend in music also, as in politics, that the person who wants to make it secular sings songs in praise of gods of other faiths. It becomes secular if other faiths are involved. The obsession with secularism is a deep-seated malaise. MS also sang in praise of gods of other faith, but she was a simple and straightforward person, who had faith at the bottom of heart. There was no missionary zeal or a crusading spirit.
I read this in a book by Calasso: “.. Man is the only being in the animal kingdom who has relinquished his nature, if by nature we mean that repertory of behaviour with which every species appears to be equipped from birth.”
All that we claim as ‘human’ are put-ons, artificial, music included. Civilisation is a human process. Religion and faith are likewise human intervention. What is so stupid about it, that is not about the other developments?
I refuse to believe that we are guided by reason the way we live.
CM has evolved around bhakthi. It is neither a shackle nor a constraint. Many of us have grown connecting with that concoction. If I have developed a liking for CM, it is a choice. Not many exercise that choice. Likewise if I feel great if it is soaked in bhakthi, it is a choice. Even some foreigners, strangers to our culture, have mentioned that they are moved by bhakthi in it.
There is nothing to feel that it is like carrying hot potatoes that have to be dropped.

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

kvchellappa wrote:We see this trend in music also, as in politics, that the person who wants to make it secular sings songs in praise of gods of other faiths. It becomes secular if other faiths are involved. The obsession with secularism is a deep-seated malaise. MS also sang in praise of gods of other faith
It is a slick device that they adopted in our polity that secular means respect for all religions - and fooled us. The intellectuals who did this may not have realized - but marxists who are or who will gain custody of this discourse ( including the meaning of the terms like secular) - will ultimately go to its more useful (to them) form : irreligious! Again religion is not the only issue for them, even culture is an oppressive club!

So if we believed that singing praise of gods of others faiths is secular that is our total misunderstanding. Indians have been sold this as part of our constitutional narrative.

And there is no implication here that - that (singing in praise of gods of other faiths ) in itself is anything wrong. It is just an issue for other faiths to reconcile the pursuit of excellence in music ( assuming they consider this some religious music) with their tenets! We should leave it to the respective faith's introspection! Faiths that are tied to their history ( as in: a point in time history), will have tough time doing this. Other syncretic off-shoots like Sufi tradition will try and bridge the gap. Even there the core Arabic view points are taking over - saying it is Allah that makes the Sufi musician sing.

Plus the musician can always claim he doesn't mean what he sings - he is just an artist - giving secular discourse a handle albeit weak.

The word secular is a total contradiction here.

Nick H
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by Nick H »

Indians have been sold this
It takes two to make a deal. It is not only the seller that is responsible, but the buyer too.

Having said that, I would agree that most people (worldwide) are not so fussy about what they buy into and do accept the easily-available and non-challenging ideas.

kvchellappa
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

from The Hindu:
"Talking about the bhakthi tradition in Carnatic music, he said it conferred on it a very special quality and an exalted place in the pantheon of music systems. The music of great composers, including the trinity of Saint Thyagaraja, Muthuswamy Dikshithar and Syama Sastri, had produced emotions among listeners —varying from ecstasy to entreaty and from arrogance to complete surrender and saranagathi."

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

Actually Society is drifting away from Bhakthi. CM is also doing so but at a slower rate than society as a whole. So it appears to some that CM is drifting actually towards Bhakthi.

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote:
shankarank wrote:Indians have been sold this
It takes two to make a deal. It is not only the seller that is responsible, but the buyer too.
Turned out to be bad flawed used car deal - no respect gained by anybody.
RSR wrote:which are based on lord-dasa, mother-child, theme than nayaka-nayaki bhavam
You seem to want a demonitization - deposit the latter with the lord with limited withdrawal facilities if any under the watchful eyes of the big father! Too much of it is akin to develop into black money eh? :lol:

vgovindan
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

Nick H wrote:It takes two to make a deal. It is not only the seller that is responsible, but the buyer too.
True, when the seller and buyer are on equal terms. But they - the Macaulayans who prided that it is the Whiteman's burden to redeem the jungle tribes of East were not sellers; they were aggressors on naive population of this country. And the Macaulayan educated Indians swallowed the history dished out by the 'sellers', hook, line and sinker.

Gandhi had been sidelined long time before Independence. He never participated in Constitution making not even Transfer of Power ceremony in the Constitution Hall where Nehru delivered the historic speech 'Tryst with Destiny'. (It is a different matter that Nehru never believed in Destiny). It was he (Nehru), an atheist, who promoted the idea of lopsided secularism that anything Hindu is taboo. Otherwise, would they have based Indian Constitution on Irish model - which is no comparison to India's size, population and antiquity?

Japanese original constitution was based on Buddhist principles of Dharma and Sangha (the Constitution made after World War II is on Western model). See the link here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen ... nstitution

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: And the Macaulayan educated Indians swallowed the history dished out by the 'sellers', hook, line and sinker.
Not sure if you are indicating that they were "naive". I think it suited their purpose and beliefs.

Many believe that numerous ills prevalent in the Indian society were removed partly by the exchange with Western ideas. Bharathiyaar himself came to believe so much on women equality only after the influence of the French.

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote:Many believe that numerous ills prevalent in the Indian society were removed partly by the exchange with Western ideas
That has some circularity to it. What we call as ills may be older social arrangements that became incompatible/redundant/anachronistic/illogical/harmful with the new economic arrangements. So it is not correct to project those as "ills" into the past.

Equality as western idea is different from equality as a Marxist idea. Even as a western idea it is a rhetoric to gain the consent of the governed and remains an utopia.

Lets remember that western nations had enough funding/resources generated from colonies to guarantee the liberties to their citizens in their constitutions. As they run out of gas we see them in financial instability - operating like charvaks that believe in inordinate debt and drunkenness - not able to pay pensions of their elderly - their health care systems collapsing etc.

Subramania Bharati championing women's cause has to be seen contextually for his times and not a repudiation of everything past.

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