Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: That has some circularity to it. What we call as ills may be older social arrangements that became incompatible/redundant/anachronistic/illogical/harmful with the new economic arrangements. So it is not correct to project those as "ills" into the past.
Hope you are not arguing that sati, child marriage, untouchability etc. are older "social arrangements".
Lets remember that western nations had enough funding/resources generated from colonies to guarantee the liberties to their citizens in their constitutions.
Economic prosperity may increase individual liberties to some extent. Not necessarily. India may have had the richest individuals at that (or any other) times.
Subramania Bharati championing women's cause has to be seen contextually for his times and not a repudiation of everything past.
Most agree that he was way ahead of "his time".

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: But women equality is not something we have to learn from French - ardha-nArISwara tattva is more proof than anything else. However, that is again mythology for all those who matter.
Having it in 'tattva' is different from having it in day to day laws and practice. I don't think we have it even now. So I believe we still have a lot to learn from the French, not withstanding ardha-narISwara whom we worship. How do we treat our transgender community?
Every society has ills. But to create a cleavage out of that and foster it - is what done by Europeans in order to perpetuate their rule. We had such a wonderful harmony - we had our own reformers from time to time. We could have solved all our ills harmoniously if we had followed Gandhian path of changing the minds. But we adopted the path of law - and there we are - it is ever etched in Indian psyche. And we are more divided than during the British rule.
But we refuse to admit our ills even now. See how shankarank calls them "older social arrangements". And we cannot blame the Europeans. It is those widespread ills that gave the Europeans the foothold. And our own intelligentsia were only too happy to bow to the lesser evil as they saw it.

You seem to be averse to the "path of law". Why? What is wrong in encoding the Gandhian path in the law? Or are they mutually incompatible?

While I concede that we have a long way to go, I don't agree that we are more divided than during British rule.

Aditto
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by Aditto »

The core of CM is always Bhakti. Thought there is the creative part in music, we cannot say an alapana full of bhakti. The sahitya part is where the mantra, tantra, jyotishya, upasana, dharmic, upanishad aspects are interwoven as a fabric. It is the singers who deviate and not CM unless new compositions come up. Time only proves their worth.

kvchellappa
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

I respectfully disagree that we have to learn from the French. They made a song and dance about equality, fraternity and liberty, but there were other societies (Britan, for instance) that woke up to those ideals by evolution. The French society should not be a model for us.
I do not think the point is that Indian society had all the best or that we must celebrate whatever was undesirable. Equally, other societies had a number of ills, no society was virtuous as a model. The way the tribals were butchered, crusades, and the barbaric invasions, there have been many sins.
Equality can only be in tattva always. None of us want equality. We want to excel. Imagine everyone singing the same way. Rasikas.org won't be there.
Even equality of opportunity is a distant dream. Does a rustic have the same opportunity as a city man? Do many of us have the same opportunity like the scion of, say, a TTK family? Even in music does anyone with no music in the family have the same opportunity as compared to one with music in the family? It is sweet to argue and write and earn money and awards, but in practice we have a different world.

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote:I respectfully disagree that we have to learn from the French.
I did not mean that we have to be exactly like them. But I am sure there are some things we can learn from them. And others from whom we can learn. And they can learn some other things from us.
Equality can only be in tattva always. None of us want equality. We want to excel. Imagine everyone singing the same way. Rasikas.org won't be there.
Even equality of opportunity is a distant dream. Does a rustic have the same opportunity as a city man? Do many of us have the same opportunity like the scion of, say, a TTK family? Even in music does anyone with no music in the family have the same opportunity as compared to one with music in the family? It is sweet to argue and write and earn money and awards, but in practice we have a different world.
Yes. The practical world is quite in contrast to the ideal world. When the chasm becomes too large, social upheaval happens. Which is why the dreamers, attempt to move the practical world towards the ideal.

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

It is not that somebody has to learn from anybody. We will learn lot of things if we are ruled over by somebody. That is a given. I am not sure we should give them credit for that. They looted quite a lot. We paid good price for it.

They ruled over not just India - many other places. Yet we have Narayana Murthys giving them credit for teaching us English and Math so we could provide cheap IT labor! No credit is giving to the value system that made teachers teach the same things with sincerity and a culture of learning that enabled us to learn those as well.

Western societies came out of dark ages in the colonial experience and interaction with lot of native cultures and learning a lot from them.

The modern constitutions themselves were the result of seeing what they did to the rest of the world and wondering what would befall them if it happened to them. They proudly proclaim those as Judeo-Christian originated and with no shame even trace it back to Aristotle - the pagan civilization that they wiped out. Their entire narrative is based on dissing the pagans even now - and they treat all other remaining native cultures similar to that.

They never gave any credit to any of the native cultures- yeah in the U.S they cook the Turkey and pardon one of it on Thanks Giving!

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: Yes. The practical world is quite in contrast to the ideal world. When the chasm becomes too large, social upheaval happens. Which is why the dreamers, attempt to move the practical world towards the ideal.
If somebody believes in advancing something that is one thing. But facing hurdles in grabbing attention , to construct the worst of narratives to gain attention - and create an atrocity literature that will attract pests intent on devouring what is left, is the problem.

Secondly this is not 500 AD - to have another free narrative. We have competing forces - and at least it is necessary to take some good ideas with it when taking the music - like the sense of sacred that is practiced that is different from those competing forces - not blame it for all ills. The competing forces will appear / have appeared in the same scene with their sAm and dhAn and doing their bhEd and will never rest without pushing their agenda with a daND!

This is not to make them to be "like us" - there is no such requirement - even within us none of us are like anybody else. And even after sorting out the "like feathered birds" into groups several of them are not like each other. Other than me there is no proponent of Mridangam as music in this forum!

They can receive the ideas and make it their own. But they don't need atrocity literature as a lure to begin the conversation - that is sowing the seeds of discord and creating a civil war situation!

You proclaimed we are all in violent agreement ( earlier post) - are you some spectator that came for the first time to an Aussie/Windies match not able to distinguish players within each side?
Last edited by shankarank on 05 Jan 2017, 01:53, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

kvchellappa wrote:Do many of us have the same opportunity like the scion of, say, a TTK family? Even in music does anyone with no music in the family have the same opportunity as compared to one with music in the family? It is sweet to argue and write and earn money and awards, but in practice we have a different world.
This is one of the crisis facing our music. That everybody wants to be on the stage. One active person in the music scene told me his impression of the audience scene in a typical concert in lets say a Chennai Sabha. Other than very old people - every young person that was there, he claimed, saw themselves on the stage!!

I don't for a moment envy a musician - they have done the hard work - I get the same or even better experience without any of that if I only tune myself to them paying a pittance ( yes pittance!) - with no effort not anything close to theirs.

All I ask is gratitude from their side - having sat in front of doyens to learn the art - he calls the people's connection to something past as a vague culture!

https://scroll.in/article/825065/silent ... oppression

The doyens had gratitude towards the TTK family for all they did to the cause of music. TTK himself had gratitude - his writings on Music Academy journal castigating the obscurantist social reformers who abolished the dEvadAsi tradition brings tears to me every time I think of it.

Celebrating the Utopian constitution - given to us - learnt from ruling us - in their colonial experiences - more than the concrete culture that has even worked the constitution towards its Utopian goals. Yes culture will have contradictions with the constitutional ideals! - but we cannot downgrade it as something vague!


And this is not about his opposition to any politician - I am only referring to his intellectual under currents!
Last edited by shankarank on 05 Jan 2017, 03:36, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote:Hope you are not arguing that sati, child marriage, untouchability etc. are older "social arrangements"
This is a typical Romila Thapar reader argument - to cast everything as Caste , Cows and Curry!

Untouchability is a problem that we have to admit - but the west is not going to help us solve it or teach us how to. They will use it only as a weak point to enter and cause trouble. The traditional occupations that certain communities do are a social arrangements of the past - but if that is not acceptable to us from a corporate slave/consumerist life style sensibilities - I suppose we have to provide an all round solution to the problem. We seem to have a lot of know how to do it clean yeah!. Lets generate the profits/revenues to fund it in all villages. Getting sensitivity training corporate style is only a cosmetic solution.

As regards Child marriage - there are communities like the podhu dikshitars who still do it since Agamas demand that the priest be married before he can perform certain duties. But if that does not conform to our need of waiting until we are educated to be a corporate slave - why should we resent it?

There may be tribal communities that may still follow this - but the Constitutional Govt. is not providing any services to them. You can insist on your values when they apply for Jan Dhan and receive the dole!

There are still Amish people in the U.S who don't apply for social security , use barter - don't use Govt. Money and choose to remain outside the system!

About Sati - there are a lot of stories about it - invasions and depredations etc - but greedy relatives can misuse anything! It is long gone so we don't need to talk about it now.

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

sureshvv wrote:Hope you are not arguing that sati, child marriage, untouchability etc. are older "social arrangements"
shankarank wrote: This is a typical Romila Thapar reader argument - to cast everything as Caste , Cows and Curry!
I gave you particularly a very low bar to clear. Unfortunately you cannot bring yourself to admit that even these are vile social practices. I hope not too many others agree with you.

Can you try to imagine for a minute that it is YOU personally subject to these social arrangements? Leave all your grand philosophy aside and think that is YOU who will be married off at 12 or will have to jump into the pyre or drop your upper body clothing? Can you react from your gut instead of from your brain?

kvchellappa
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

I had satvika bhakthi in mind when I brought this topic.

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote:I gave you particularly a very low bar to clear. Unfortunately you cannot bring yourself to admit that even these are vile social practices. I hope not too many others agree with you.
I gave you straight answers. You are re-framing the question to your liking to get an answer from your perspective. Do you think today anybody will continue to defend these as acceptable social practices?

My Grandma was married off at 7 - I never saw any ill feeling or anger in her because of that - they raised a family of 6 successfully. Does that mean I will marry off my daughter at the same age ? I want her to survive in today's economical model!

My stand is we do not need to sit in judgement of our past.

These are not the reasons for Europeans to take control - we had already been colonized before they arrived - and that is another thing our historiography will never talk about. In both cases our civilization did not perform a study of the others from our stand point to understand them and we still don't want to - we will continue accept their analysis ( including those of the Indians trained in their view point) on us simply!

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: I gave you straight answers.
I am sorry that I could not deduce your "yes" or "no".
Do you think today anybody will continue to defend these as acceptable social practices?
I hope not.
My stand is we do not need to sit in judgement of our past.
If not us, who?
These are not the reasons for Europeans to take control - we had already been colonized before they arrived - and that is another thing our historiography will never talk about.
You may have a point here. Europeans just wanted control. They were not here to assimilate or become part of this society. Had they, we may have found a way to integrate them.

rajeshnat
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by rajeshnat »

kvchellappa wrote:I had satvika bhakthi in mind when I brought this topic.
shankaranum sureshum are persenting their facts very well . My last pronounced bhakthi was there for every semester in my engineering 4 year course, because without that elusive bhakthi i would have not cleared few of those papers . At times chellapa sir it is nice to just cautiously only read the posts. Let this duel die out and then we can get back to satvika bhakthi. I am hesitating to write more and that is more directed to only v govindan sir .

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

Today people have started marrying close to mid 30s and beyond - almost to risk Autism in their children! Now millenials don't want to marry as well - may be feeling economic and work pressure pinch? Chomskian dream of "even family as a power structure has the burden to prove it needs the power" is slowly coming true.

Next what - state managing the children or even planning their production? Lets give it all to the state! They will plan it based on economic requirements!

A padam or javali expressing the travails of or celebrating ( depending on ones take!) the new realities will be a good drift for CM! ;)

sureshvv
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote:
My Grandma was married off at 7 - I never saw any ill feeling or anger in her because of that - they raised a family of 6 successfully. Does that mean I will marry off my daughter at the same age ? I want her to survive in today's economical model!
Good for you. Not everyone is as lucky as your Grandma or your daughter. But this "social arrangement" still survives to this day. And some of their arguments are quite similar to yours!

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote:I had mentioned that CM has been defined by the compositions of Purandhara Dasa
kvchellappa wrote:I had satvika bhakthi in mind when I brought this topic.
The Purandhara dasa identification must have started with Prof. Sambamoorthy drawing up syllabus for Macaulayan education of Carnatic music. Fits the requirement that everything has a point in time beginning - the history centric narratives of the west. All morals flows from their city on a hill to the natives - clean Hinduism as they called it! Culminating in brain washing us into removing all erotic content!

Even Sanskrit learning followed same pattern - it began with pANiNi - after writing began - and it is now taught with rama; ramau ramAh - all oral history brushed aside! Is that how a child learns language?

Grammar first approach that was useful for them to appropriate Greek and Latin into English and also Sanskrit into English!

Now it is the turn of Frankfurt school of Marxism in the garb of American orientalists , aided and abetted by our intellectual class, with their critical theory, dismantling every institution built by decentralized activity - no conspiracy of any sort - the thing we cherish as culture - satvika Bhakti included - calling it all oppressive!.

kvchellappa
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

I am unable to get the logic.
Does a child start learning language at school? Is music learnt only when sa ri ga ma is taught?
Did chemistry start from difference between mixture and compounds?
Grammar evolves from usage and formal education begins from basic syllables. All subjects start from some convenient primer. The world over formal education seems to have followed such a pattern. Tagore, Mali, etc. are exceptions. It must be a topsy-turvy world where an education system is devised keeping exceptions in mind.
Do we go back to what it was before all formal things started assuming we know it, and then start from there?
Do we have a whole system in mind when we shoot down what is widely in use?
Last edited by kvchellappa on 06 Jan 2017, 11:50, edited 2 times in total.

vgovindan
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

rajeshnat wrote:Let this duel die out and then we can get back to satvika bhakthi. I am hesitating to write more and that is more directed to only v govindan sir .
Rajesh,
Here is sAtvIka bhakti demonstrated. 'vaddanEvAru lEru - shaNmukhapriya -
http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -raga.html

"kOrikalu ilalO divilO koncamaina lEni nA manasu" - No yearnings in my mind either here or hereafter....

Here is Sowmya - (though this kRti does not seem to have been given much preference by musicians)

https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=BBA ... sAHSZe_v4U

One can write pages but will the heart throb like this? You have the proof there.

There are two kinds of anubhUti - experience. One parOksha anubhUti - what you hear, learn. The other aparOkshAnubhUti - self experiencing it - even Guru is only a signpost. The last mile is alone and alone only.

RSR
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

Marxism is about 'abolition of private property'. . Marx himself has extolled the aims of real religion. Marxism is not crude Atheism but Dielectical Materialism. a) The striking resemblance of Sumerian practice 'Ur', 'Rajopacharam' , 'Moon god,'Momtain Goddess' ( Neelakanda Sastry in History of South India). b) Marx on absence of the very concept of private property in the East which he termed and lauded as Asiatic mode of production'. c) Correspondence between early russian socialists and Marx regarding the Russian 'mir' as primitive communism. d) Nice book Fidel and Religion'. e) 5000 years of historical continuity from the Levant to Madurai!. f) Karl Kautsky on the progressive role of the Church during the middle ages. g) Lunacahrsky on Soviets and Christ h) Alexander blok 'THE TWELVE'. i) nearer at home our Barathy, who could integrate the Marxist ideals with Theism. .. Just brief hints. One can have very advanced left-wing ideology while remaining a theist. We are not discussing political economy or literature. but just CARNATIC MUSIC.

vgovindan
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

RSR wrote:.....nearer at home our Barathy, who could integrate the Marxist ideals with Theism. .
Sometimes antipodes look alike. Bharathi was more than a believer. If you read his 'paraSiva veLLam', one will realise that he had the actual experience of that state. For persons who reach that state all that is perceived is THAT truth only. What Sadasiva Brahmendra sings 'sarvam bhrahma mayam rE rE' is not an empty rhetoric. Therefore, they find pettiness on part of people abhorrent. It is much above the communistic model of social equality and equity. Their thoughts and actions spring forth from the fullness of their heart. (Communists demand power for working class and they will advocate revolution to achieve that end - once they got the power, they will suppress the same working class - remember Gulag Archipelago - ruthlessly.) That is why I said antipodes sometimes look alike.

varsha
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

The uniqueness of every painting was once part of the uniqueness of the place where it resided. Sometimes the painting was transportable. But it could never be seen in two places at the same time. When the camera repr’oduces a painting, it destroys the uniqueness of its image. As a result its meaning changes. Or, more exactly, its meaning multiplies and fragments into many meanings
waysofseeingwaysofseeing.com/ways-of-seeing-john-berger-5.7.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utEoRdSL1jo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Berger
John Berger died a few days ago

varsha
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

Duplicate
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varsha
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

Duplicate
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RSR
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

vgovindan wrote:
RSR wrote:.....nearer at home our Barathy, who could integrate the Marxist ideals with Theism. .
(Communists demand power for working class and they will advocate revolution to achieve that end - once they got the power, they will suppress the same working class - remember Gulag Archipelago - ruthlessly.) That is why I said antipodes sometimes look alike.
Old hat. Yankee prop stuff . If Stalinism is good for Nehru, it is good for me. . May I add , Stalin lifted the ban on Russian Orthodox church during the catastrophic Second World War and actively encouraged it as it was and still remains the wellspring of Russian Nationalism? . Nationalism can be of three types a) Nazi b) Liberal c) Proletarian
So long as Imperialism remains, there is need for Nationalism in third world countries. .. Where did Solzhenitsyn end?
Typical Right wing reactionary. ... Read Barathy's essays on Soviet uprising and civil war. Barathy was a political worker (MPT Acharya, Barathy's close intellectual friend, was an active Proletarian Internationalist and an office bearer like MNRoy in the Comintern) and definitely not a mystic like Paramahamsa or Ramana Maharaishi or Shirdi Saibaba. RUSSELL has written a lovely essay 'Mysticism and Logic'. to silence all superficial sceptics. . Better still, read Jawahar. . And the book by Fabians Sydney Webb and Beatrice Webb 'Soviet Communism -a new civilization'. which converted Nehru. Read Paul Robeson on the cultural achievements of Stalin era.
Last edited by RSR on 06 Jan 2017, 11:51, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

How much we have strayed away from the declared topic of this thread!.. We are talking about CM and its essential connection with the Bhakthi movement, so far as all the composers since Purandharadasa handled it. If we ignore the lyrics and concentrate on the Ragam only ,as Sri.Girish has pointed out, only then we can delink. but even in instrumental rendering, the sahithyam is in mind. .. Let us prepare a list of all the composers of CM upto 1950 and check what percentage of the thousands of compositions are unconnected with Hindu religious sentiments. Hardly 5% !. ( javalis and like). . If we remove the devotional aspect from CM and 'shackle' it to dance music, albeit romantic (erotic?), it will become little different from film music. It may not be a bad idea , to make CM exclusively Devotion-oriented and may be even introduce singing in group as we do in Thyagaraja Uthsavam. Obliterate the 'ego' and 'libido' and soar into the realms of 'super-ego'. Govindhan Sir, is talking about such liberating experience. 'Enna ganu Rama bajan'... 'rama rama rama' ( MS) . Environment and association have a lot to do with such bliss for the fortunate few. . while it is confined to a few now, a just and egalitarian society will lift the entire people to that level. Let us not get embroiled in political propaganda and futile barbs ,irrelevant to the topic. As P.Bala would say, shift the discussion , elsewhere if political theory sneaks in.

varsha
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

'Enna ganu Rama bajan'... 'rama rama rama' ( MS)
the first time I encountered 'rama rama rama' it was bliss .
Every other time since then, in numerous concerts ,
http://www.mediafire.com/file/0yj7t3pzy ... a_rAma.mp3
it is a cliche that makes me wince. :oops:
Last edited by varsha on 07 Jan 2017, 08:43, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

varsha ji, -> " Environment and association have a lot to do with such bliss for the fortunate few."...For devotees, chanting/hearing that word, is never , tiresome. 'yathra yathra ragunaatha keerthanam .......". Hard luck, ji!

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote:Check what percentage of the thousands of compositions are unconnected with Hindu religious sentiments. Hardly 5% !. ( javalis and like). .
First of all calling javalis not Hindu ( assuming that denotes a civilization in all its gamut that lived/lives around and east of the river Indus) is an unacceptable position - you can call it "not religious" - and define religion as you want - I don't care! Even if that word vanishes from dictionary doesn't impact anything for me - along with its opposite pair Secular - let it annihilate.

Lets head back to the original topic that you seemed so obsessed about. Opening passage from the article posted :
He ( some person named Sivaramakrishnan) recently happened to hear ‘Koluvameragada’ in Thodi at two different venues and realised the one sung by a veteran had a meditative quality about it while the other rendered by an accomplished youngster stood out for its technical brilliance.

Is the core of Carnatic music shifting from devotional and meditative to technical excellence and egregious display of talent?
First of all to conflate the meditative quality of something as devotion/bhakti is a stretch. Bhakti has specific meaning even used in the sense of Bhakti movement that came in medieval times.

The meditative quality of the older musician cited - may be just a result of that musician getting through years of sAdhakam and acquiring wisdom and losing virtuosity and becoming philosophical in approach as he realizes the loss of virtuosity itself implies ephemeral nature of the body - the pre-medieval meaning of the word Bhakti.

Secondly a piece does not become Bhakti theme just because it addressed a deity! Lets look at the opposite : If a piece does not address a deity - like "nATTai kurinji enbAr - ciranda engaLatu" - If you scale back in this thread - I had argued even a nation is looked at as a divine entity - well that was unpalatable to some. Then I pointed out if it refers to a rAga in a different con-joinment of words - rAgAs themselves are divine - the implication of ancestry and heritage - our ancestors are divine!!

Finally if all that escapes our thoughts - letters are divine , time interval is divine , the swaras are divine ( please refer to discussion on A Doubt in Sanskrit Grammar about MD kriti). Instrumental music is included nicely in two of those meta physical assertions! And a gAyaki style approach includes letters as well!

Even your deities are sanctified and re-established every 12 years with prANa pratishTa reciting the metrical verses where the letters , swaras and mAtras are observed correctly - assuming the priest adheres to it!

So the young boys having joy and merry at the technical wonder of the compositions - still are dwelling on the divine - why not ? Is worship a sombre affair always? And does it have to be a worship ? In a Yagna all the upa-vedas ( touching the material world ) are also a part !!

SaiSavE(a)bhyasta vidyAnAm yauvanE viShayaiShinAm - vArdhakE muni vRttInAm yOgEnAntE tanutyajAm as kalidasa says!

If people are so engrossed on the material and forget the divine - let them - if your take or theory is right - virakti will set in in due course and the divine just hides under their nose !

This is the sense with which a Guru imparts the art to a sishya - otherwise why would he/she be so meticulous in correcting mistakes! If that does not happen - where the hell is any traditional art - even using that term in the most modern sense - how does a tradition carry forward?. If imputation of divinity is viewed even as some instrument to demand respect for heritage/culture - even then we are in trouble!!.
RSR wrote:If we remove the devotional aspect from CM and 'shackle' it to dance music, albeit romantic (erotic?), it will become little different from film music
Nonsense! Film music as it got western influenced went to Shrill metallic voices for the females and crooning male voices for the male - emphasizing pure notes - even sharp metallic and physical sound - losing all subtlety. Add to it all the plethora of instruments - the sound curated to instant appeal - it is a celebration of kriyAs!

Now it is even going further down away from Human to machine domain.

http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/st ... gue/298054

The initial years of film music dwelt on everything from a Sanskritic perspective including music. I told you to give up all this carnatic colonial names and treat as Sanskritic music or chennisai! you did not accept it.

Sanskritic music has the possibility of being sweet to someone from a sanskritic eco system even with no knowledge of nuances or methods.

You named several mystics. I will tell you something - Sunil Gavaskar has written an article on Sri Sathya Sai Baba! He recalls how his would-be father-in-law was convinced to marry his daugher to Sunil after seeing the photograph of Sri Sathya Sai Baba in the modest home of Sunil Gavaskar!

Roll forward to Sri Velukudi - clarifying why Krishna is talked about having so many consorts - when marrying during kannika dhAnam ceremony - the groom is viShNurEva - he asked rhetorically if the father does not think the boy has some qualities of viShnu - ivanai nambi evanAvatu poNNai koDuppAnA? ( Will any father marry his daughter to such a guy?)

To say that only addressing a deity makes a song Hindu Religious ( I am using both words together for safety ) - is affirming Abrahamic Theology!!

I will come to AnnamacArya and Purandaradas next!

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

.". Hard luck, ji!
Indeed....I have had my share of luck .Earning it the hard way . Was taught to follow a star in the skies , but follow my chosen path on land
THE fact is that purification and austerity are even more necessary for the appreciation of life and laughter than for anything else. To let no bird fly past unnoticed, to spell patiently the stones and weeds, to have the mind a storehouse of sunsets, requires a discipline in pleasure and an education in gratitude.
Tremendous Trifles.'
One sunset is grotesque . Many sunsets bring in the promise of a new dawn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo4OyhSglmA

Another golden sunset here
from someone who sang pAmaranu nAnu long long before Sruthi dumped him with that label
https://archive.org/details/EnnaGAnuPan ... halaRAmdAs

Yes. I am a dreamer. For a dreamer is one who can find his way by moonlight.And his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world….Oscar Wilde in The Critic as an artist

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sankark »

RSR wrote:We are talking about CM and its essential connection with the Bhakthi movement, so far as all the composers since Purandharadasa handled it.
What's with "since Purandharadasa" - is that another pollsters trick? Whither the continuum that existed before?

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

'Purandara Dasa, who belonged to a sect of Vishnu worshippers called the Haridasas (also referred to as Dasa Kootas), is referred to as the Pitamaha (Grandsire) of Carnatic music. It was he who codified the beginners’ lessons and also gave the art a concrete syllabus for learning that is followed till date with very minor variations. Purandara was a prolific composer, but unfortunately in the chaos that prevailed in the years after his death owing to the break up of the Vijayanagar empire, the tunes of most of his works were lost though the lyrics of many songs have survived. These are now sung in various tunes by present day musicians."...."t was however only in the 17th Century that Carnatic music became codified the way we know it today. Venkatamakhin wrote the Chaturdandi Prakashika, in which he for the first time defined the parent scales (ragas) and mathematically arrived at 72 of them (called the melakarthas) based on the variants of the seven notes. A later scholar, Govinda, futher refined this scheme in his Sangraha Choodamani and it is his nomenclature that survives till date. All other ragas were attached to one or the other of the parent 72 based on their notes, and were called janya ragas.

Carnatic music had by the 17th Century shifted further south to Tanjore, where under the benign rule of the Nayaks and later the Maratha kings, it flourished as a major art form. Many of the kings were themselves greatly respected musicologists and composers. Attracted by employment opportunity and the stability, several Brahmins from Andhra region moved to Tanjore and its environs. This sect of Mulakanadu Smartha Brahmins was to play a major role in the development of Carnatic music. Several composers lived in Tanjore and the language of composing was invariably Telugu as that was the language of the court.

The Maratha influence brought about the development of the Harikatha or the tradition of discourses on the greatness of God in the form of stories, accompanied by music. This greatly added to Carnatic repertoire with bhajans, folk songs and several operas entering the mainstream. The art of percussion too acquired great refinement as a result of these Harikathas.
The arrival of the Carnatic Trinity was an epoch-making event for the art form. Syama Sastry (1762-1827), Tyagaraja (1767-1847) and Muttuswami Dikshitar (1775/6-1835) were all born in the town of Tiruvarur. All three of them took to music and evolved into composers of outstanding excellence. In keeping with Indian tradition, they are collectively thought of as divine in the incarnations.
Tyagaraja was the most prolific among the three and emotion was his forte. He composed in his mother tongue Telugu, in several popular ragas and some rare ones. Though most of his songs are on his patron deity Rama, his songs have several observations on the day to day life in his times. They are indeed valuable sociological works apart from being gems of music.
Syama Sastry, the eldest of the three, was hereditary priest at the Bangaru Kamakshi temple in Tanjore. He composed on the Goddess and his songs, mainly in Telugu, are excellent in melody. Their true strength, however, lies in the way the rhythm is woven into the song.
The youngest of the Trinity, Muttuswamy Dikshitar, had an interesting life. His younger brother Baluswami observed the violin used by Westerners in Madras and adapted it to Carnatic music. Muttuswami Dikshitar travelled in the company of his guru to North India and was influenced by the Hindustani stream as well. A very learned man, he composed in chaste Sanskrit and adopting a peripatetic existence he visited a number of shrines in south India and composed on them. His songs excel in their structured usage of ragas.
Coming as they did at the same time, the Trinity eclipsed all earlier composers. Carnatic music having relied on the oral tradition, many of the songs of the pre-Trinity period completely vanished. The disciples of the Trinity spread far and wide propogating their songs, and soon their compositions began dominating Carnatic repertoire. The era immediately after the Trinity witnessed the rise of a number of performing musicians who were also composers such as the Tanjore Quartet, Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan (1844-93), Patnam Subramania Iyer (1845-1902), Ramanathapuram Poochi Srinivasa Iyengar (1867-1919), and several others such as Harikesanallur L. Muthaiah Bhagavatar (1877-1945) and Mysore Vasudevachar (1865-1961). These composers created songs in several forms such as varnams, javalis, and tillanas. They looked to the royal courts for patronage and with the decline of the Tanjore court in 1799, others such as Mysore, Travancore, Pudukottai and the smaller estates such as Ettayapuram, Ramnad and Sivaganga took over. An important personality was the composer Swati Tirunal (1813-1846), who ruled Travancore. ".... A brief history of Carnatic Music

Written by Sri.V.Sriram. Extracted from the book Carnatic Summer with the author’s kind permission and published in Nadasurabhi Souvenir 2007

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

duplicate and hence deleted
Last edited by RSR on 07 Jan 2017, 12:24, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by arasi »

iSaiyE avan...

kaDavuL kallAgak kANap peTRalum, avan sarva vyApi--
avaniDam manidan kaRpadO? "kuthuk kallAyiRadu
paDarndu, paRakkath therindiDu, paTRu viDu!

en paDaippaip pArthuk kaTRiDu, paravasam koNDiDu
isaithiDu, suvaithiDu, avai inbamAm nAnEyenRaRi
uLLathirundu varum pADalil nAnuLLen, aiyamEdu?

nI enaip pEriTTu azhaiyAviDinum
kuralum, kuzhalum, vINai narambum
azhaikkumennai, nIyum urugiDak kUviDu!" :)

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

For a civilization that is actually timeless, and even chronologically dates back to 3000 BC, and had excelled in every mode of art form, it is but natural that some music system should have existed and evolved over the centuries prior to Purandharadasa. Especially in Far South. The thamizh sangam literature 'paripaadal' mentions songs and music. Silappathikaram also mentions great details. . There might have been three classical music systems. a) Far South b) Deccan c) Gangetic plain ( after 1300 AD). HM should have established itself around 1300 AD. So, the original music system, that might have ( should have) existed all over India except the Far South, came to be predominant in Deccan. Gradually, the FarSouth music system also gave way to the Deccan system. (Carnatic ). All art forms ( super-structure) are influenced by politico-economic structures (the base). ..However, it is not one-way traffic. . All such movements have ideological overtones too. But, it is sheer folly to reject the superstructure in toto. Marx was a great admirer of confirmed Royalist like The BARD and used to recite the glorious lines of the Bard to his children.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by arasi »

Music is Him!
................

Though we see Him in stone, he is all pervading
What do we learn from Him? " Be not a stuck stone,
Spread out, learn to fly, free yourself from care!

Learn from what I have created, revel in it
Sing, savor it, know that I'm in them all
I am in music which arises from the heart

Even if you do not call my name
The voice, the flute and vINA's strings
Beckon me--your music will too! :)

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by arasi »

The above is the translation of the poem. Will post in tamizh script in the Literature section...

ratanabhinav
Posts: 314
Joined: 22 Jun 2016, 22:58

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by ratanabhinav »

Though CM is full of bhakti , I feel that some current artistes who are not very experienced in my opinion , are diluting the bhakti for sake of musical prowess , or in other words are singing 'abaddha sangatis ' or non synchronous musical phrases , which are an over exaggeration and spoil the sahitya bhava .. Also , if one possesses bhakti and love , admiration for Lord and his divine form , beauty , attributes , or to simply say , as in tamil , his pugazh and his pastimes , it would reflect in the raga bhava a lot. I hope bhaktas are able to connect with this . Just singing any two names of the lord in random in any of our favourite raga , with bhakti and thought of his attributes brings a lot of soukyam to us. I hope I was clear in what I had said . I just said that music served with bhakti has a different flavour than when served sans bhakti.

Tyagaiyyer sang ' bhakti bhikshamaiyyave bhavugamagu sadviga ' .Tyagaraja asked only for Sadviga bhakti from Lord Rama and nothing else .Just look at his humility. His name and fame were all only by-products . His focus was only on serving the Lord - with more and more music and lyrics filled with nava vida bhakti , as said in 'raga ratna malikache ranjillu nata hari sata ' . He says Lord Hari would be very pleased if we present Him with a garland of hundred ragas !!! ( Just look at tyagaraja's beautiful thought ! ). In Dasarate in thodi raga , he confirms what I have said . If musicians take up such a bhakti to music , along with bhakti for the Lord and see the raga as devata swarupam , engrossed in raga bhava , it would be amazing .
Regard
Ratan Abhinav

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

Drifting away ??? No Sir .
Just finding its balance in choppy waters .

Glory be !!!
To the coming generations of musicians , who can get the best out of this stream of music . And succeed in transferring their inner serenity to the listeners .

https://archive.org/details/CheppadVamananNamboodiri

prabuddha
Posts: 63
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 06:08

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by prabuddha »

Carnatic music is certainly more ornamented than traditionally rendered 'bhakti' music. For example, the way an oduvar renders a verse from Sambandhar or Appar is inherently more evocative of bhakti than a rendition by a typical CM singer or by a playback singer of films. While it's a difference in degree, the net effect can not altogether be ignored.

Just my 2c,

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by thenpaanan »

prabuddha wrote: 02 Mar 2017, 05:34 Carnatic music is certainly more ornamented than traditionally rendered 'bhakti' music. For example, the way an oduvar renders a verse from Sambandhar or Appar is inherently more evocative of bhakti than a rendition by a typical CM singer or by a playback singer of films. While it's a difference in degree, the net effect can not altogether be ignored.

Just my 2c,
Indeed. Every individual is unique and so responds uniquely to a given piece of music, both as a performer and a listener. The same piece will be definitely dealt with differently by every individual but we should not create buckets like bhakti music or Carnatic music because these are all (poorly defined) regions on a broad spectrum of musical possibilities.

To me an OduvAr might come differently to a piece perhaps because of a difference in emphasis between lyric (or verse) and melody. As U Ve Swaminatha Iyer says in his autobiography, musicians tend to push the text to the background and the melodic content to the foreground, which is why his teacher urged him not to become musically trained (from no less a personage than Gopalakrishana Bharati). But these need not be mutually exclusive. There is value in both forms of presentation and the really creative artist will try to capture both if possible.

"Bhakti" is an internal emotion or feeling, not to be measured by external metrics. When a performer performs a piece a listener may feel something internal that (s)he may interpret as bhakti, whether that was intended or not. I personally fall apart emotionally when I sing some kritis of Tyagaraja but I dont know or care if that is bhakti.

But as a Carnatic singer, there is a hidden point being raised here that I think is quite important. What is the right level of ornamentation for a given piece and a given audience? When is it too much (or too little)? It is quite a difficult question with not enough discussion. As a tradition we tend to _say_ that 'pATAntaram' and authenticity is most important, but in practice we tend to give a lot of leeway to performers. So there is not much discussion or guidance on the aesthetic of how to use this leeway as a performer.

-tenpANan

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

thenpaanan wrote: 04 Mar 2017, 00:17 What is the right level of ornamentation for a given piece and a given audience? When is it too much (or too little)? It is quite a difficult question with not enough discussion. As a tradition we tend to _say_ that 'pATAntaram' and authenticity is most important
The drive for something new - when real newness is obscure - plus the pedagogy of notating and teaching sangatis - add to it the emphasis shifting to "songs" ( much different from the original word sAhitya) due to Movie pop culture is what has become of what we have.
prabuddha wrote: 02 Mar 2017, 05:34 Carnatic music is certainly more ornamented than traditionally rendered 'bhakti' music
You mean pack n+1 notes where n exists currently? :lol: . You see if they do sangatIs and also emphasize a good odukkam or a kArvai - without of course making it a harsh experience - at least some substance is conveyed - that they are true sAdhakas - not just melody vomitters! Your statement itself is incomplete - and you seem to acquiesce with the snake oil salesman idea that music is just the notes arranged on a sheet paper of music! And Rest means a blank silence - 1, 2, 3, rest as violinists practice in the west!

The "Bhakti" music you talk about is contextual - and depends on sadas - but listeners next gen may not have that disposition. It can mean several things : a Gamaka / Bhava emphasis was taken to mean - even stones will melt ("kallum karaiyum"). Now another version is a contemplative / meditative experience - people want svaras / gamakas to be close to pure! I wouldn't go to the extent of calling it subjective ( like every individual has his or her own reaction) - but it was a property of a close knit eco-system.
thenpaanan wrote: 04 Mar 2017, 00:17 As U Ve Swaminatha Iyer says in his autobiography, musicians tend to push the text to the background and the melodic content to the foreground
taitrIya samhita again! After the three vallis, ecstasy is reached - Etat sAma gAyannAstE! hA! vu hA! vu hA! vu - no more text! Before that, all text - in fact so much text that has so much sandhi rules : e.g tasmin (t-th) sahasra SAkhE ( infinite ways of having faith in one self) - tasmin and sahasra are joined by a special sandhi that has t & th etc - so much technicalities.... all forgotten at the end as the sage breaks out in sAma gAna!

ARI disciple Sri Allepey Venkatesan explains here : https://youtu.be/nT9ZXWOvHrA?t=1850

When I keep saying letters are divine - when first consonants strike for a child ka (kAdi vidya) , ta (akatAdi trirEkhAtma) etc - there is still no meaning yet and there is no text - valluvar says kuzhal inidu yAzh inidu - we know the rest!. Before that differentiation the child is only full of sAma closer to its cosmic origin. This I think most people can relate to!

This provides a new dimension to the lyric-less instrumental music - ka - ta - are after all meaningless stresses in the hands of a child! So even if the instrumental stress does not emphasize like actual sAhitya - still divine!

If the musicians aspire to have good fidelity to text , they can recite them separately to exercise their palate! Even otherwise, I presume in the worst case, they will still have some accuracy as much as a child has. sAma the music itself is ecstasy - Bhakti need not arise solely from a text being pronounced clearly! tasmin (t-th) sahasra SAkhE!

Finally let me say : It is interesting that ka - kAdi vidya denotes upAsana of divine mother - the first consonant. The last one with any palatal stress is sa - before "ha" which is just open emission of air. "sa" connects us to cosmos as explained by Dr HMB in his cosmic creation story!
Last edited by shankarank on 04 Mar 2017, 11:23, edited 2 times in total.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

Importance of Chandas

https://youtu.be/rclf1mGHixA?t=1568

Sri G.S. Mani explains : vellimalaI svAmigal did pratiShTa of a subramhaNya svAmi in a temple just using tiruppugazh - full of chandas the meter! No other consecration rituals were performed!

Arunagiri himself refers to the lord as vEda mantra svarUpA namO nama.

tiruppugazhai neruppendrarivOm ! ( Lets know tiruppugazh as the holy fire!)

Thiru Karukkuricci Arunachalam - I heard used to say "shanmugam kUpidutu" (shanmugam beckons me ) when he was hungry - referring to the agni in his stomach!

That to me is one form of true Bhakti!

prabuddha
Posts: 63
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 06:08

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by prabuddha »

Shankarank wrote:

You mean pack n+1 notes where n exists currently? :lol: . You see if they do sangatIs and also emphasize a good odukkam or a kArvai - without of course making it a harsh experience - at least some substance is conveyed - that they are true sAdhakas - not just melody vomitters! Your statement itself is incomplete - and you seem to acquiesce with the snake oil salesman idea that music is just the notes arranged on a sheet paper of music! And Rest means a blank silence - 1, 2, 3, rest as violinists practice in the west!

Dear Sir,

Your posts generally dont seem to convey any sense. In fact the longer they are, I'm afraid the less they do. You seem to be also quite incapable of understanding what the other person's trying to say. You haven't got what I meant by 'traditionally rendered' nor have you tried to understand it. Have you even listened to any spiritual music in any tradition outside your own?

Your faculties are clearly addled by all the vada sambar you have been consuming in sabha canteens. As a consequence you are perfectly within your rights to empty yourself one end or the other. But at least try to meditate on what people say. That is, if you cant meditate on music before you deliver the next long post. And please spare me your Moore Market sandhi rules.

Prabuddha

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

prabuddha wrote: 05 Mar 2017, 08:10 Have you even listened to any spiritual music in any tradition outside your own?
Let's name a few: chaurasia osho recordings?
Anup jalota ghazal(oh sorry bhajan] would count as spiritual or no?
.... so that is very insightful to understand the difference between Dhandapani Desikar and say MDR who is somewhat ornamented I suppose...

Sandhis rules were addressed to somebody else's comments not yours..

prabuddha
Posts: 63
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 06:08

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by prabuddha »

I was commenting on the drivel you wrote about sandhi rules. Much of the other stuff you write e.g., your latest post is similar. I cited for you oduvar music first - straight from the Tamil tradition. Obviously you havent heard that with the care it deserves. Otherwise you would not be spewing scorn on it.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

When did I spew scorn on Oduvars? If you read carefully I was spewing scorn on plain variety CM singers trained in the sangati notated system with no sense of layam or ruchi ( yes they should listen to Oduvar's kAmbodhi ), inserting n+1 swaras where n exist to derive new manodharmic music! - the vadai sambhar music that your referred to infact!

Then came your question if I have heard spiritual music outside my tradition? I gave you examples and asked how listening to them is going to help me understand the difference between a Oduvar musician and somebody whom we regard as a Carnatic musician.

I guess you misunderstood! Did you really mean Oduvar music is spiritual music outside my tradition ? :o :oops: :lol:

shankarank
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Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

OK! so this has been discussed - explicitly in a lec Dem - the sAmA rule. So even without realizing I spoke correctly! :o :lol:

https://youtu.be/_cmzirvDs2I?t=1531

melam72
Posts: 494
Joined: 02 Nov 2016, 16:12

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by melam72 »

What if the performance/murder of Carnatic music is a form of bhakti after all?

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

So what Sri TRS explains there - reg. vAni mATalaku kOpa ginci kaNTa - reason enough for Andhra Govt. under NTR to decide that Tyagaraja's telugu is not upto par :twisted: - and start promoting Annamacharya instead! So much so that a musicologist none less than Sri SRJ after one of his lecdems ( in response to a rasika's query as to what is this big deal with Thyagaraja's compositions ), replied - enna oru Annamacharya kIrtanam pADi neraval svaram pOda mudiyatA enna? - I was shocked - at that time I have not worked out to myself the elaborate reasons as to why that might be problematic!

About 2005 or so @ Cleveland a concert of Sudha Raghunathan in a Sunday morning session was in progress with All AnnamAcharya theme! - once the time for Mridanga tani came - the mridangist missed the kOrvai once - then the front row vidvans Sri N Ramani included started asisting with the tAlam, he missed again - next time few others joined the tAlam assist and Ramani's hand went higher than before! :lol: . There was also a kanjira - and he played an exquisite tisra setup kOrvai from Palghat Raghu staple - sabAsh(s) were heard in the hall. The main artiste was not amused!

So if a Mridangist did not feel the music in that long two hours preceding, enough to be in the groove - how much rasa would have flowed to the audience - unless they were superficially taking it - because it was Annamacharya and the words are in the Telugu they like. Did music have any role?

This has resulted in performance of Thyagaraja's music being called not Bhakti music or not religious music - but "art" music!! So go figure! idukku Chappu kaTTa sAmA vedam varaikkum pOga vENDiyatAhi viTTatu :lol:

As TRS says if they had had Lec Dems in his younger days - he would have been better off - just like if they had encouraged youngsters early on during SSI times - SSI - the youngest sangIta kalanidhi - would have been gotten it even younger! Also if somebody like below provided word by word meaning in English that time itself :twisted: - we would not be in this state!

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html

As regards vAani mATalaku kOpa ginci kaNTa - it looks like the sAhitya got properly handled after that Lecdem as well as after Modi got elected :twisted: :lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7qPqb-gmvo - well I didn't check all the archives before that instance - but let me have my fun anyways ;)

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