Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

shankarank wrote: But then I was told once by a traditionalist who took sanyAs later on that - Bhajana and unca vriddhi use to be prescribed as a route path for those who cannot cope up with vEdic learning ( :?: :roll: ). Don't know if it is showing progress in remembering and reciting. In fact on a related matter there is something I remember from Muthiah Bhagavathar's biography that somebody in his family ( parent or uncle) was not so pleased with him taking to music.
This is a total mis-conception about bhajana mArga - unca vRtti accompanied or not. If someone takes to bhajana mArga as a profession to fend for oneself, it is not wrong per se. He can progress step by step and engage in bhajana for one's own sake (not for one's welfare). But when that becomes the end, then the total picture gets distorted.
The bigger issue is musicians ( TMK in an interview to a Tamizh magazine) claiming in interviews that "tyAgarAja has anyway split the words arbitrarily in between and laid out his music and hence his intent was just music ( as in music as only art!) and not any religious intent" - bringing in the separation factor from modern discourse and divining an intent on a composer!.
Obnoxious and audacious! Only a person conceited about himself can make such a statement. May God Bless him with better sense.

Some times I keep wondering about those who say to their lady love "I love you". Shah Jahan who married eleven times and built Taj Mahal can boastfully say 'I love you' to Mumtaj. But then Sri Rama - Eka patni vrata in the midst of polygamy even by his own father - can also say 'I love you' to sItA. Which is real? You make your own assessment.

Tyagaraja comes in the latter category and the musicians who sing Tyagaraja kRtis for sangati sake come in the former category. Good Luck!

nA jIvAdhAra! nA nOmu phalamA!

rAjIva lOcana! rAja rAja SirO-maNi! (nA)

nA cUpu prakASamA! nA nAsikA parimaLamA!
nA japa varNa rUpamA! nAdu pUjA sumamA!
tyAgarAja nuta (nA)

PS : It is not fair to say that all the Tyagaraja Kritis are inspirational. There are many kRtis where one can find word-play. But surely the inspirational kRtis, like the one given above, are not sangati-centric.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: It is not fair to say that all the Tyagaraja Kritis are inspirational. There are many kRtis where one can find word-play. But surely the inspirational kRtis, like the one given above, are not sangati-centric.
Lots of erroneous generalizations based on your individual taste.

In defense of TMK, the word-play you refer to is often of the "sukkumi-laguthi-pili" kind. In my view it is posed as a challenge to musicians and the good ones acquit themselves well (like shankaran has pointed out).

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

From an article in The Hindu:
Lars Fredriksson: When asked what drew him to the art form (CM), he simply states, “The religious music: it channels out into total joy.”

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

Carnatic music system is generally accepted as having been systematized by Purandhara Dasa ( 1500 AD.. the time of Krushna Deva Raya, Vijayanagar empire ). . Later, during the years of East India Company ( 1750-1850), ( there may or may not be any connection) , The Trinity, Sadasiva Brammendram and Swathi ThirunaL, gave us thousands of kruthis. ...While basic stratum of classical music , according to my strongly held view, is pure 'harmony of swaras ', not needing any words, CM is what has been handed down to us by the above mentioned composers and they were all Vaishnavite poets. possibly inspired by Sri.Ramanuja ( 1100 AD).and Madhvacharya. .. Thus, it is not wrong to conclude that CM is essentially Bakthi-oriented. 'Sangeetha Gnyanamu Bakthi vina?'... It so happened for some reason that all the above main composers gave us the compositions in kannada ,telugu or sanskrit. ( though a few are in thamizh and Malayalam..just a few, very few. ). Not one of these composers was agnostic or secular. Dikshithar perhaps was ' vedhanthic' but that also includes Vaishava bakthi. .
The issue is not about the artistes. It is about the main composers and the theme of their compositions. It then is definitely Theism of a definite Hindu / Vaishanavite orientation. preaching Bakthi Margam irrespective of caste. It was not just crude Bajan however. Though it served an ideological purpose, it captured the hearts of millions by the excellence of the lyrics, and music. CM cannot be and should not be secular. My suggestion is that all young students of CM should learn the languages of these composers (ie) Telugu, Kannada and Sanskrit . and really develop a theistic mindset and understand the kruthis to render with bhaavam. 'Thamizh Isai' movement might have , caused harm to CM, inadvertently.
.. The aim of any Art form should be to liberate us from the evils which are clearly mentioned in Gita. . Let us exclude erotic music for ever. Generation gap is just an illusion. It is just lack of awareness caused by consumerist culture and 'secular' themes of poets and writers of the present era. A Renaissance should occur and it will begin with re-assertion with language, theme and mood of the original composers in CM. .

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

#127...Sri.V.Govindan....
Some times I keep wondering about those who say to their lady love "I love you". Shah Jahan who married eleven times and built Taj Mahal can boastfully say 'I love you' to Mumtaj. But then Sri Rama - Eka patni vrata in the midst of polygamy even by his own father - can also say 'I love you' to sItA. Which is real? You make your own assessment.

Tyagaraja comes in the latter category and the musicians who sing Tyagaraja kRtis for sangati sake come in the former category. Good Luck!
..SPLENDID, Sir

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote:Let us exclude erotic music for ever.
So our children will read those things from Enid Blyton and others?. Which describes any ugly character as dark skinned?. They won't read Mahabharata where dark skinned Draupadi is described as a beautiful woman?

Don't think that this is some diaspora issue or a convent school thing. Enid Blyton was a good read by my classmates in my school - unaided CBSE not run by missionaries!

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: It is not fair to say that all the Tyagaraja Kritis are inspirational. There are many kRtis where one can find word-play. But surely the inspirational kRtis, like the one given above, are not sangati-centric.
Lots of erroneous generalizations based on your individual taste.

In your mind, "sangati-centric" seems to be the opposite of "inspirational". I beg to differ. Inspirational can appeal to all your different faculties - intelligence, emotion, humor, spirituality. "Word-play" should not be dismissed as trivial.

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sankark »

I think this discussion has branched, moved side ways, meandered and what not.

But going to the title of the post - sometimes it makes sense to reframe the question. In this case, ask not "Is CM drifting away from bhakti?", but ask "Should CM be shackled to bhakti/bhakti centric?"

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

sankark wrote:"Should CM be shackled to bhakti/bhakti centric?"
There are only two rasas (of navarasa) - karuNa and SRngAra - which have universal appeal. vAtsalya bhAva and SAnta bhAva essentially form part of karuNa rasa. Of these two, SRngAra cannot be taken beyond certain level. The universe hinges on Love which manifests as physical laws. Therefore, human imagination excels in this rasa only. Every other rasa is just transitory in nature and even if songs are created in them, they do not stand the test of time. Efforts have been made even in this forum to have 'secular' themes - all just BusvANam. Those who want to challenge the system of CM, may just try their hand.

I can understand the mindset of 'intellectuals' who detest theism and the connected compositions. The artist is simply neutral to every bhAva - all that he has to do is express that bhAva. He may be a total atheist. Will a woman surgeon object to carry out surgery on a male? Same is the case with artist. He is only a medium to express a bhAva in its true spirit as envisaged by the composer.

ayaṁ dharmaḥ sarveṣām bhūtānām madhu; asya dharmasya sarvāṇi bhūtāni madhu; yaś cāyam asmin dharme, tejomayo'mṛtamayaḥ puruṣaḥ, yaś cāyam adhyātmaṁ dhārmas tejōmayo'mṛtamayaḥ puruṣaḥ, ayam eva sa yo'yam ātmā, idam amṛtam, idam brahma, idaṁ sarvam.

The law that operates outside is the law of the cosmos. There are no two laws – God's law and man's law; universal law and individual law. No such thing is there. Such thing as 'my law' or 'your law' does not exist. There is only one law operating everywhere, in all creation, visible or invisible, in all realms of being. The same law is there for the celestials, the humans and the subhuman creatures. Everyone is controlled by a single principle of ordinance. That is called Dharma. It operates as gravitation in the physical level; it operates as love in the psychological level; it operates as chemicals in the chemical level and it operates as integration of thought in our mental level, the level of cognition and thinking. It ultimately operates as the connecting link between the subject and the object, on account of which there is knowledge of anything at all. That is called Dharma. Dharma is an integrating force of anything that is even apparently in disparity. Anything that is disconnected, apparently isolated, not visibly connected, is actually connected, and that connecting principle is called Dharma. And Dharma becomes an integrating principle because of the presence of the ātman that is behind it. There is no such thing as Dharma independent of the operation of the ātman. What you call Dharma or law is the ātman working. Its own law is its Being; its Being is its law; they are not two different things.
madhu vidyA - Swami Krishnananda - http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/brdup ... II-05.html

Mohd Rafi - a great Hindi singer has sung numerous songs in bhakti theme. Does it mean that he has adopted Hinduism and is a bhaktA. There is a total misconception about the relationship between the artist and the art he displays

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

Deleted being duplicate.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

sankark wrote:"Should CM be shackled to bhakti/bhakti centric?"
That sounds like a pollsters trick. Frame the question to elicit leading responses to skew opinion polls. Numbers speak! people say. Lies, Damn lies and statistics!
vgovindan wrote:vAtsalya bhAva and SAnta bhAva essentially form part of karuNa rasa
SAnta rasA : isn't this the absence of all the other 9 rasas? Cannot be a subject of nATya as it cannot be shown through abhinaya?

Bharata's mention of adRSTa phala provided by sangIta vs the nATya has this 10th one as the missing puzzle. If viSrAnti - the canvas of silence is brought in - we get a parallel with consciousness - the blank space - the daharakASa on which all other raSAs play. If nATya can successfully bring all of the 9 rasAs - sangIta which has limitations can instead expose a glimpse of this silence - for which immense sAdhakam is required to show the contrast.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote:Mohd Rafi - a great Hindi singer has sung numerous songs in bhakti theme. Does it mean that he has adopted Hinduism and is a bhaktA. There is a total misconception about the relationship between the artist and the art he displays
An appeal to some emotional surge in some form is inadequate to define the roots of traditional music. This is simply a case of taking some surface cosmetics for quickly appealing to lot of people - an escape route. Still for a listener who is yet to get used to physical sound of music - this may be a conduit to his conditioning.

Also bringing in belief systems into this discussion is a distraction. If we really proceed theologically - relevant questions that may come up may be - is the sacredness or inherent divinity of letters, svaras and mAtras compatible with a given belief system and is it part of its history and theology?

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

The topic is about CM and not about general theory of music. I had mentioned that CM has been defined by the compositions of Purandhara Dasa, The Trinity, Sadasiva Brammendram, Swathi Thirunal. and even if we consider the kruthis of Annamacharya, ( he is supposed to have created many romantic kruthis.. rather explicit, but about the Lord Venkateswara and his consort). , it cannot be gainsaid that all of them are theistic. . Prior to the Trinity, we had the Thamizh Trinity and two of them sang on Lord Nataraja. while Arunachala kavi sang on Lord Rama. So did Gopalakrushna Barathy, Suddhananda Baharathy, and many others. ...So called romantic creations like Javali, also are mostly on God in an indirect way.
We keep saying that the vocalists should sing with Bhavam and it is not possible unless he enters into the spirit of the theistic composers , not in an abstract intellectual plane but in sublime emotional plane as does Jesudas. For singers who are deeply spiritual, it is quite possible to enter into the respective religious system while rendering the kruthi. be it Saaktham, Koumaaram, Gaanapathyam, Saivam, Vaishanavam . Vedanayagam Pillai has created compositions common to all religions. though he was a Christian. .
Jesudas though born a Christian, was a disciple of venerable Chembai and today, S.P.Balasubramanyam has performed Paadha Poojai to Jesudas. This is just wonderful. Hence my submission that, for a really soulful rendering of CM kruthis by major composers, a definite theistic mindset and reverence is essential. Many patriotic songs of our Independence movement also were considering Mother India as divine. . (ex- Jayathi Jayathi Bharatha Matha) . This is supposed to be music season in Chennai and is it possible for any vocalist to completely avoid theistic kruthis? Can you imagine any vocalist singing 'manmatha leelaiyai vendraar?' in a concert?
It is a very good thing that CM is 'shackled' to Hindu religion.. especially Vaishnavam. If we want to bring back the glory of CM , and win back our youth from film and tv craze , we must assert the Devotional aspect of CM and give more importance to such kruthis, which are based on lord-dasa, mother-child, theme than nayaka-nayaki bhavam.
WISHING ALL FORUM MEMBERS 'HAPPY NEW YEAR 2017'

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

You all seem to be in violent agreement :)

girish_a
Posts: 427
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 13:33

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by girish_a »

sankark wrote:In this case, ask not "Is CM drifting away from bhakti?", but ask "Should CM be shackled to bhakti/bhakti centric?"
Carnatic music is religious music. Attempts to bring in secular aspects to Carnatic music will only go so far. To be sure, saints like Purandara Dasa, Kanaka Dasa and Tyagaraja have composed songs deriding narrow mindedness, bigotry and other evils in society, but those compositions still serve to highlight the fact that Bhakti is the antidote societal evils, and don't deal with the latter in isolation.

But this is not to say that the Raga system cannot be used for non-religious aspects. The Raga was invented to express human moods and emotions, and emotions obviously span a wide range of feelings and are not confined to the religious.

So why this attempt to force-fit the non-religious into the Carnatic framework? Square peg in a round hole, in my opinion.

I think the confusion arises because of the failure to recognize that Ragas can exist apart from Carnatic. Carnatic cannot exist without Ragas, but Ragas can.

PS: But you may have a point. One can reasonably ask: Does Neraval (as it is performed today) evoke Bhakti? Does technical jugglery evoke Bhakti?

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

We see this trend in music also, as in politics, that the person who wants to make it secular sings songs in praise of gods of other faiths. It becomes secular if other faiths are involved. The obsession with secularism is a deep-seated malaise. MS also sang in praise of gods of other faith, but she was a simple and straightforward person, who had faith at the bottom of heart. There was no missionary zeal or a crusading spirit.
I read this in a book by Calasso: “.. Man is the only being in the animal kingdom who has relinquished his nature, if by nature we mean that repertory of behaviour with which every species appears to be equipped from birth.”
All that we claim as ‘human’ are put-ons, artificial, music included. Civilisation is a human process. Religion and faith are likewise human intervention. What is so stupid about it, that is not about the other developments?
I refuse to believe that we are guided by reason the way we live.
CM has evolved around bhakthi. It is neither a shackle nor a constraint. Many of us have grown connecting with that concoction. If I have developed a liking for CM, it is a choice. Not many exercise that choice. Likewise if I feel great if it is soaked in bhakthi, it is a choice. Even some foreigners, strangers to our culture, have mentioned that they are moved by bhakthi in it.
There is nothing to feel that it is like carrying hot potatoes that have to be dropped.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

kvchellappa wrote:We see this trend in music also, as in politics, that the person who wants to make it secular sings songs in praise of gods of other faiths. It becomes secular if other faiths are involved. The obsession with secularism is a deep-seated malaise. MS also sang in praise of gods of other faith
It is a slick device that they adopted in our polity that secular means respect for all religions - and fooled us. The intellectuals who did this may not have realized - but marxists who are or who will gain custody of this discourse ( including the meaning of the terms like secular) - will ultimately go to its more useful (to them) form : irreligious! Again religion is not the only issue for them, even culture is an oppressive club!

So if we believed that singing praise of gods of others faiths is secular that is our total misunderstanding. Indians have been sold this as part of our constitutional narrative.

And there is no implication here that - that (singing in praise of gods of other faiths ) in itself is anything wrong. It is just an issue for other faiths to reconcile the pursuit of excellence in music ( assuming they consider this some religious music) with their tenets! We should leave it to the respective faith's introspection! Faiths that are tied to their history ( as in: a point in time history), will have tough time doing this. Other syncretic off-shoots like Sufi tradition will try and bridge the gap. Even there the core Arabic view points are taking over - saying it is Allah that makes the Sufi musician sing.

Plus the musician can always claim he doesn't mean what he sings - he is just an artist - giving secular discourse a handle albeit weak.

The word secular is a total contradiction here.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by Nick H »

Indians have been sold this
It takes two to make a deal. It is not only the seller that is responsible, but the buyer too.

Having said that, I would agree that most people (worldwide) are not so fussy about what they buy into and do accept the easily-available and non-challenging ideas.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

from The Hindu:
"Talking about the bhakthi tradition in Carnatic music, he said it conferred on it a very special quality and an exalted place in the pantheon of music systems. The music of great composers, including the trinity of Saint Thyagaraja, Muthuswamy Dikshithar and Syama Sastri, had produced emotions among listeners —varying from ecstasy to entreaty and from arrogance to complete surrender and saranagathi."

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

Actually Society is drifting away from Bhakthi. CM is also doing so but at a slower rate than society as a whole. So it appears to some that CM is drifting actually towards Bhakthi.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote:
shankarank wrote:Indians have been sold this
It takes two to make a deal. It is not only the seller that is responsible, but the buyer too.
Turned out to be bad flawed used car deal - no respect gained by anybody.
RSR wrote:which are based on lord-dasa, mother-child, theme than nayaka-nayaki bhavam
You seem to want a demonitization - deposit the latter with the lord with limited withdrawal facilities if any under the watchful eyes of the big father! Too much of it is akin to develop into black money eh? :lol:

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

Nick H wrote:It takes two to make a deal. It is not only the seller that is responsible, but the buyer too.
True, when the seller and buyer are on equal terms. But they - the Macaulayans who prided that it is the Whiteman's burden to redeem the jungle tribes of East were not sellers; they were aggressors on naive population of this country. And the Macaulayan educated Indians swallowed the history dished out by the 'sellers', hook, line and sinker.

Gandhi had been sidelined long time before Independence. He never participated in Constitution making not even Transfer of Power ceremony in the Constitution Hall where Nehru delivered the historic speech 'Tryst with Destiny'. (It is a different matter that Nehru never believed in Destiny). It was he (Nehru), an atheist, who promoted the idea of lopsided secularism that anything Hindu is taboo. Otherwise, would they have based Indian Constitution on Irish model - which is no comparison to India's size, population and antiquity?

Japanese original constitution was based on Buddhist principles of Dharma and Sangha (the Constitution made after World War II is on Western model). See the link here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen ... nstitution

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: And the Macaulayan educated Indians swallowed the history dished out by the 'sellers', hook, line and sinker.
Not sure if you are indicating that they were "naive". I think it suited their purpose and beliefs.

Many believe that numerous ills prevalent in the Indian society were removed partly by the exchange with Western ideas. Bharathiyaar himself came to believe so much on women equality only after the influence of the French.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote:Many believe that numerous ills prevalent in the Indian society were removed partly by the exchange with Western ideas
That has some circularity to it. What we call as ills may be older social arrangements that became incompatible/redundant/anachronistic/illogical/harmful with the new economic arrangements. So it is not correct to project those as "ills" into the past.

Equality as western idea is different from equality as a Marxist idea. Even as a western idea it is a rhetoric to gain the consent of the governed and remains an utopia.

Lets remember that western nations had enough funding/resources generated from colonies to guarantee the liberties to their citizens in their constitutions. As they run out of gas we see them in financial instability - operating like charvaks that believe in inordinate debt and drunkenness - not able to pay pensions of their elderly - their health care systems collapsing etc.

Subramania Bharati championing women's cause has to be seen contextually for his times and not a repudiation of everything past.

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

suresh,
I never meant that we Indians are filled with wisdom. Wisdom is universal. There must be exchanges and reforms. But women equality is not something we have to learn from French - ardha-nArISwara tattva is more proof than anything else. However, that is again mythology for all those who matter.

Every society has ills. But to create a cleavage out of that and foster it - is what done by Europeans in order to perpetuate their rule. We had such a wonderful harmony - we had our own reformers from time to time. We could have solved all our ills harmoniously if we had followed Gandhian path of changing the minds. But we adopted the path of law - and there we are - it is ever etched in Indian psyche. And we are more divided than during the British rule.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: That has some circularity to it. What we call as ills may be older social arrangements that became incompatible/redundant/anachronistic/illogical/harmful with the new economic arrangements. So it is not correct to project those as "ills" into the past.
Hope you are not arguing that sati, child marriage, untouchability etc. are older "social arrangements".
Lets remember that western nations had enough funding/resources generated from colonies to guarantee the liberties to their citizens in their constitutions.
Economic prosperity may increase individual liberties to some extent. Not necessarily. India may have had the richest individuals at that (or any other) times.
Subramania Bharati championing women's cause has to be seen contextually for his times and not a repudiation of everything past.
Most agree that he was way ahead of "his time".

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: But women equality is not something we have to learn from French - ardha-nArISwara tattva is more proof than anything else. However, that is again mythology for all those who matter.
Having it in 'tattva' is different from having it in day to day laws and practice. I don't think we have it even now. So I believe we still have a lot to learn from the French, not withstanding ardha-narISwara whom we worship. How do we treat our transgender community?
Every society has ills. But to create a cleavage out of that and foster it - is what done by Europeans in order to perpetuate their rule. We had such a wonderful harmony - we had our own reformers from time to time. We could have solved all our ills harmoniously if we had followed Gandhian path of changing the minds. But we adopted the path of law - and there we are - it is ever etched in Indian psyche. And we are more divided than during the British rule.
But we refuse to admit our ills even now. See how shankarank calls them "older social arrangements". And we cannot blame the Europeans. It is those widespread ills that gave the Europeans the foothold. And our own intelligentsia were only too happy to bow to the lesser evil as they saw it.

You seem to be averse to the "path of law". Why? What is wrong in encoding the Gandhian path in the law? Or are they mutually incompatible?

While I concede that we have a long way to go, I don't agree that we are more divided than during British rule.

Aditto
Posts: 323
Joined: 20 May 2008, 20:31

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by Aditto »

The core of CM is always Bhakti. Thought there is the creative part in music, we cannot say an alapana full of bhakti. The sahitya part is where the mantra, tantra, jyotishya, upasana, dharmic, upanishad aspects are interwoven as a fabric. It is the singers who deviate and not CM unless new compositions come up. Time only proves their worth.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

I respectfully disagree that we have to learn from the French. They made a song and dance about equality, fraternity and liberty, but there were other societies (Britan, for instance) that woke up to those ideals by evolution. The French society should not be a model for us.
I do not think the point is that Indian society had all the best or that we must celebrate whatever was undesirable. Equally, other societies had a number of ills, no society was virtuous as a model. The way the tribals were butchered, crusades, and the barbaric invasions, there have been many sins.
Equality can only be in tattva always. None of us want equality. We want to excel. Imagine everyone singing the same way. Rasikas.org won't be there.
Even equality of opportunity is a distant dream. Does a rustic have the same opportunity as a city man? Do many of us have the same opportunity like the scion of, say, a TTK family? Even in music does anyone with no music in the family have the same opportunity as compared to one with music in the family? It is sweet to argue and write and earn money and awards, but in practice we have a different world.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote:I respectfully disagree that we have to learn from the French.
I did not mean that we have to be exactly like them. But I am sure there are some things we can learn from them. And others from whom we can learn. And they can learn some other things from us.
Equality can only be in tattva always. None of us want equality. We want to excel. Imagine everyone singing the same way. Rasikas.org won't be there.
Even equality of opportunity is a distant dream. Does a rustic have the same opportunity as a city man? Do many of us have the same opportunity like the scion of, say, a TTK family? Even in music does anyone with no music in the family have the same opportunity as compared to one with music in the family? It is sweet to argue and write and earn money and awards, but in practice we have a different world.
Yes. The practical world is quite in contrast to the ideal world. When the chasm becomes too large, social upheaval happens. Which is why the dreamers, attempt to move the practical world towards the ideal.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

It is not that somebody has to learn from anybody. We will learn lot of things if we are ruled over by somebody. That is a given. I am not sure we should give them credit for that. They looted quite a lot. We paid good price for it.

They ruled over not just India - many other places. Yet we have Narayana Murthys giving them credit for teaching us English and Math so we could provide cheap IT labor! No credit is giving to the value system that made teachers teach the same things with sincerity and a culture of learning that enabled us to learn those as well.

Western societies came out of dark ages in the colonial experience and interaction with lot of native cultures and learning a lot from them.

The modern constitutions themselves were the result of seeing what they did to the rest of the world and wondering what would befall them if it happened to them. They proudly proclaim those as Judeo-Christian originated and with no shame even trace it back to Aristotle - the pagan civilization that they wiped out. Their entire narrative is based on dissing the pagans even now - and they treat all other remaining native cultures similar to that.

They never gave any credit to any of the native cultures- yeah in the U.S they cook the Turkey and pardon one of it on Thanks Giving!

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: Yes. The practical world is quite in contrast to the ideal world. When the chasm becomes too large, social upheaval happens. Which is why the dreamers, attempt to move the practical world towards the ideal.
If somebody believes in advancing something that is one thing. But facing hurdles in grabbing attention , to construct the worst of narratives to gain attention - and create an atrocity literature that will attract pests intent on devouring what is left, is the problem.

Secondly this is not 500 AD - to have another free narrative. We have competing forces - and at least it is necessary to take some good ideas with it when taking the music - like the sense of sacred that is practiced that is different from those competing forces - not blame it for all ills. The competing forces will appear / have appeared in the same scene with their sAm and dhAn and doing their bhEd and will never rest without pushing their agenda with a daND!

This is not to make them to be "like us" - there is no such requirement - even within us none of us are like anybody else. And even after sorting out the "like feathered birds" into groups several of them are not like each other. Other than me there is no proponent of Mridangam as music in this forum!

They can receive the ideas and make it their own. But they don't need atrocity literature as a lure to begin the conversation - that is sowing the seeds of discord and creating a civil war situation!

You proclaimed we are all in violent agreement ( earlier post) - are you some spectator that came for the first time to an Aussie/Windies match not able to distinguish players within each side?
Last edited by shankarank on 05 Jan 2017, 01:53, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

kvchellappa wrote:Do many of us have the same opportunity like the scion of, say, a TTK family? Even in music does anyone with no music in the family have the same opportunity as compared to one with music in the family? It is sweet to argue and write and earn money and awards, but in practice we have a different world.
This is one of the crisis facing our music. That everybody wants to be on the stage. One active person in the music scene told me his impression of the audience scene in a typical concert in lets say a Chennai Sabha. Other than very old people - every young person that was there, he claimed, saw themselves on the stage!!

I don't for a moment envy a musician - they have done the hard work - I get the same or even better experience without any of that if I only tune myself to them paying a pittance ( yes pittance!) - with no effort not anything close to theirs.

All I ask is gratitude from their side - having sat in front of doyens to learn the art - he calls the people's connection to something past as a vague culture!

https://scroll.in/article/825065/silent ... oppression

The doyens had gratitude towards the TTK family for all they did to the cause of music. TTK himself had gratitude - his writings on Music Academy journal castigating the obscurantist social reformers who abolished the dEvadAsi tradition brings tears to me every time I think of it.

Celebrating the Utopian constitution - given to us - learnt from ruling us - in their colonial experiences - more than the concrete culture that has even worked the constitution towards its Utopian goals. Yes culture will have contradictions with the constitutional ideals! - but we cannot downgrade it as something vague!


And this is not about his opposition to any politician - I am only referring to his intellectual under currents!
Last edited by shankarank on 05 Jan 2017, 03:36, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote:Hope you are not arguing that sati, child marriage, untouchability etc. are older "social arrangements"
This is a typical Romila Thapar reader argument - to cast everything as Caste , Cows and Curry!

Untouchability is a problem that we have to admit - but the west is not going to help us solve it or teach us how to. They will use it only as a weak point to enter and cause trouble. The traditional occupations that certain communities do are a social arrangements of the past - but if that is not acceptable to us from a corporate slave/consumerist life style sensibilities - I suppose we have to provide an all round solution to the problem. We seem to have a lot of know how to do it clean yeah!. Lets generate the profits/revenues to fund it in all villages. Getting sensitivity training corporate style is only a cosmetic solution.

As regards Child marriage - there are communities like the podhu dikshitars who still do it since Agamas demand that the priest be married before he can perform certain duties. But if that does not conform to our need of waiting until we are educated to be a corporate slave - why should we resent it?

There may be tribal communities that may still follow this - but the Constitutional Govt. is not providing any services to them. You can insist on your values when they apply for Jan Dhan and receive the dole!

There are still Amish people in the U.S who don't apply for social security , use barter - don't use Govt. Money and choose to remain outside the system!

About Sati - there are a lot of stories about it - invasions and depredations etc - but greedy relatives can misuse anything! It is long gone so we don't need to talk about it now.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

sureshvv wrote:Hope you are not arguing that sati, child marriage, untouchability etc. are older "social arrangements"
shankarank wrote: This is a typical Romila Thapar reader argument - to cast everything as Caste , Cows and Curry!
I gave you particularly a very low bar to clear. Unfortunately you cannot bring yourself to admit that even these are vile social practices. I hope not too many others agree with you.

Can you try to imagine for a minute that it is YOU personally subject to these social arrangements? Leave all your grand philosophy aside and think that is YOU who will be married off at 12 or will have to jump into the pyre or drop your upper body clothing? Can you react from your gut instead of from your brain?

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

I had satvika bhakthi in mind when I brought this topic.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote:I gave you particularly a very low bar to clear. Unfortunately you cannot bring yourself to admit that even these are vile social practices. I hope not too many others agree with you.
I gave you straight answers. You are re-framing the question to your liking to get an answer from your perspective. Do you think today anybody will continue to defend these as acceptable social practices?

My Grandma was married off at 7 - I never saw any ill feeling or anger in her because of that - they raised a family of 6 successfully. Does that mean I will marry off my daughter at the same age ? I want her to survive in today's economical model!

My stand is we do not need to sit in judgement of our past.

These are not the reasons for Europeans to take control - we had already been colonized before they arrived - and that is another thing our historiography will never talk about. In both cases our civilization did not perform a study of the others from our stand point to understand them and we still don't want to - we will continue accept their analysis ( including those of the Indians trained in their view point) on us simply!

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: I gave you straight answers.
I am sorry that I could not deduce your "yes" or "no".
Do you think today anybody will continue to defend these as acceptable social practices?
I hope not.
My stand is we do not need to sit in judgement of our past.
If not us, who?
These are not the reasons for Europeans to take control - we had already been colonized before they arrived - and that is another thing our historiography will never talk about.
You may have a point here. Europeans just wanted control. They were not here to assimilate or become part of this society. Had they, we may have found a way to integrate them.

rajeshnat
Posts: 9906
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by rajeshnat »

kvchellappa wrote:I had satvika bhakthi in mind when I brought this topic.
shankaranum sureshum are persenting their facts very well . My last pronounced bhakthi was there for every semester in my engineering 4 year course, because without that elusive bhakthi i would have not cleared few of those papers . At times chellapa sir it is nice to just cautiously only read the posts. Let this duel die out and then we can get back to satvika bhakthi. I am hesitating to write more and that is more directed to only v govindan sir .

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

Today people have started marrying close to mid 30s and beyond - almost to risk Autism in their children! Now millenials don't want to marry as well - may be feeling economic and work pressure pinch? Chomskian dream of "even family as a power structure has the burden to prove it needs the power" is slowly coming true.

Next what - state managing the children or even planning their production? Lets give it all to the state! They will plan it based on economic requirements!

A padam or javali expressing the travails of or celebrating ( depending on ones take!) the new realities will be a good drift for CM! ;)

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote:
My Grandma was married off at 7 - I never saw any ill feeling or anger in her because of that - they raised a family of 6 successfully. Does that mean I will marry off my daughter at the same age ? I want her to survive in today's economical model!
Good for you. Not everyone is as lucky as your Grandma or your daughter. But this "social arrangement" still survives to this day. And some of their arguments are quite similar to yours!

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote:I had mentioned that CM has been defined by the compositions of Purandhara Dasa
kvchellappa wrote:I had satvika bhakthi in mind when I brought this topic.
The Purandhara dasa identification must have started with Prof. Sambamoorthy drawing up syllabus for Macaulayan education of Carnatic music. Fits the requirement that everything has a point in time beginning - the history centric narratives of the west. All morals flows from their city on a hill to the natives - clean Hinduism as they called it! Culminating in brain washing us into removing all erotic content!

Even Sanskrit learning followed same pattern - it began with pANiNi - after writing began - and it is now taught with rama; ramau ramAh - all oral history brushed aside! Is that how a child learns language?

Grammar first approach that was useful for them to appropriate Greek and Latin into English and also Sanskrit into English!

Now it is the turn of Frankfurt school of Marxism in the garb of American orientalists , aided and abetted by our intellectual class, with their critical theory, dismantling every institution built by decentralized activity - no conspiracy of any sort - the thing we cherish as culture - satvika Bhakti included - calling it all oppressive!.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by kvchellappa »

I am unable to get the logic.
Does a child start learning language at school? Is music learnt only when sa ri ga ma is taught?
Did chemistry start from difference between mixture and compounds?
Grammar evolves from usage and formal education begins from basic syllables. All subjects start from some convenient primer. The world over formal education seems to have followed such a pattern. Tagore, Mali, etc. are exceptions. It must be a topsy-turvy world where an education system is devised keeping exceptions in mind.
Do we go back to what it was before all formal things started assuming we know it, and then start from there?
Do we have a whole system in mind when we shoot down what is widely in use?
Last edited by kvchellappa on 06 Jan 2017, 11:50, edited 2 times in total.

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

rajeshnat wrote:Let this duel die out and then we can get back to satvika bhakthi. I am hesitating to write more and that is more directed to only v govindan sir .
Rajesh,
Here is sAtvIka bhakti demonstrated. 'vaddanEvAru lEru - shaNmukhapriya -
http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -raga.html

"kOrikalu ilalO divilO koncamaina lEni nA manasu" - No yearnings in my mind either here or hereafter....

Here is Sowmya - (though this kRti does not seem to have been given much preference by musicians)

https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=BBA ... sAHSZe_v4U

One can write pages but will the heart throb like this? You have the proof there.

There are two kinds of anubhUti - experience. One parOksha anubhUti - what you hear, learn. The other aparOkshAnubhUti - self experiencing it - even Guru is only a signpost. The last mile is alone and alone only.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

Marxism is about 'abolition of private property'. . Marx himself has extolled the aims of real religion. Marxism is not crude Atheism but Dielectical Materialism. a) The striking resemblance of Sumerian practice 'Ur', 'Rajopacharam' , 'Moon god,'Momtain Goddess' ( Neelakanda Sastry in History of South India). b) Marx on absence of the very concept of private property in the East which he termed and lauded as Asiatic mode of production'. c) Correspondence between early russian socialists and Marx regarding the Russian 'mir' as primitive communism. d) Nice book Fidel and Religion'. e) 5000 years of historical continuity from the Levant to Madurai!. f) Karl Kautsky on the progressive role of the Church during the middle ages. g) Lunacahrsky on Soviets and Christ h) Alexander blok 'THE TWELVE'. i) nearer at home our Barathy, who could integrate the Marxist ideals with Theism. .. Just brief hints. One can have very advanced left-wing ideology while remaining a theist. We are not discussing political economy or literature. but just CARNATIC MUSIC.

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by vgovindan »

RSR wrote:.....nearer at home our Barathy, who could integrate the Marxist ideals with Theism. .
Sometimes antipodes look alike. Bharathi was more than a believer. If you read his 'paraSiva veLLam', one will realise that he had the actual experience of that state. For persons who reach that state all that is perceived is THAT truth only. What Sadasiva Brahmendra sings 'sarvam bhrahma mayam rE rE' is not an empty rhetoric. Therefore, they find pettiness on part of people abhorrent. It is much above the communistic model of social equality and equity. Their thoughts and actions spring forth from the fullness of their heart. (Communists demand power for working class and they will advocate revolution to achieve that end - once they got the power, they will suppress the same working class - remember Gulag Archipelago - ruthlessly.) That is why I said antipodes sometimes look alike.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

The uniqueness of every painting was once part of the uniqueness of the place where it resided. Sometimes the painting was transportable. But it could never be seen in two places at the same time. When the camera repr’oduces a painting, it destroys the uniqueness of its image. As a result its meaning changes. Or, more exactly, its meaning multiplies and fragments into many meanings
waysofseeingwaysofseeing.com/ways-of-seeing-john-berger-5.7.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utEoRdSL1jo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Berger
John Berger died a few days ago

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

Duplicate
Last edited by varsha on 06 Jan 2017, 12:40, edited 5 times in total.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by varsha »

Duplicate
Last edited by varsha on 06 Jan 2017, 12:38, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

Post by RSR »

vgovindan wrote:
RSR wrote:.....nearer at home our Barathy, who could integrate the Marxist ideals with Theism. .
(Communists demand power for working class and they will advocate revolution to achieve that end - once they got the power, they will suppress the same working class - remember Gulag Archipelago - ruthlessly.) That is why I said antipodes sometimes look alike.
Old hat. Yankee prop stuff . If Stalinism is good for Nehru, it is good for me. . May I add , Stalin lifted the ban on Russian Orthodox church during the catastrophic Second World War and actively encouraged it as it was and still remains the wellspring of Russian Nationalism? . Nationalism can be of three types a) Nazi b) Liberal c) Proletarian
So long as Imperialism remains, there is need for Nationalism in third world countries. .. Where did Solzhenitsyn end?
Typical Right wing reactionary. ... Read Barathy's essays on Soviet uprising and civil war. Barathy was a political worker (MPT Acharya, Barathy's close intellectual friend, was an active Proletarian Internationalist and an office bearer like MNRoy in the Comintern) and definitely not a mystic like Paramahamsa or Ramana Maharaishi or Shirdi Saibaba. RUSSELL has written a lovely essay 'Mysticism and Logic'. to silence all superficial sceptics. . Better still, read Jawahar. . And the book by Fabians Sydney Webb and Beatrice Webb 'Soviet Communism -a new civilization'. which converted Nehru. Read Paul Robeson on the cultural achievements of Stalin era.
Last edited by RSR on 06 Jan 2017, 11:51, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply