Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 18 Dec 2015, 17:22

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 001392.ece

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 18 Dec 2015, 17:49

Actually I think CM is the only authentic Bhakthi left. Bhakthi has largely become commerce (between individuals or individual & God).

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 18 Dec 2015, 19:46

Depends on Singers and Listeners and it is not Universal!!!

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 18 Dec 2015, 20:54

Sureshvv
You cannot comment about other's bhakthi. You never know what plane they are in.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 18 Dec 2015, 21:01

The answer to the question is simple : How old are you? (No offense sir, but still)

As RSachi's stats would show, younger audiences want more of the thrills and the geeks among them want the more scholarly stuff. It's the older audiences that want more of lyrically richer, less heavy items. This is something that catches out a significant number of older rasikas (including the one in the Hindu article, I wonder if he is the same member on our forum), they grow up with a set of artistes who were older or contemporary to them and then when they're senior citizens, they listen to another generation and suddenly find a generation gap -- but in hindsight it really is not so surprising.

One reason for the drift away from bhakti would be the language difficulty -- actually for some of us even Tamil feels alien (blame my primary upbringing far away from my home state) and telugu is still a language I have yet to learn while Sanskrit I can also follow to a decent extent, though still there're many many miles to go.

I also think this is the reason for what I see is an overall aversion to lyrics (and by extension bhakti).

However in case you're wondering, here's an old quote that is supposedly by either Plato or Socrates :

"...The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise...”

And then a quote from 8th century BC : "I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint."

- Hesiod, 8th century BC

Yup, a very old tradition continues.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 18 Dec 2015, 21:24

bhakthim dehi wrote:Sureshvv
You cannot comment about other's bhakthi. You never know what plane they are in.

I agree. My comment was not about any particular individual. It is more of a general societal impression along the same lines
as the original article.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 19 Dec 2015, 04:32

Bhakti does not mean what we commonly think it means.

Bhakti means to give something its due share.

In the vedic language (i.e. pre-sanskrit) it was used with reference to give the appropriate deva (deity) their share (bhāga) of the havya (food offering/oblation).

In sanskrit, we use it usually in the sense of according proportionate (or sometimes, greater than proportionate) importance/respect to something.

Īśvara-bhakti (bhakti to a supreme deity/god) is just one type of bhakti, not the only one.

But I agree CM is generally drifting away from bhakti - bhakti to sāhitya, to manodharma, to bhāva, and to other things that constitute core elements of this art form.

About it drifting away from Īśvara-bhakti, I am not too concerned about it.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 19 Dec 2015, 08:19

The question is whether CM is intertwined with bhakthi and whether if bhakthi is removed, it will lose its flavour. Of course, we are not going to get a clear-cut answer.

Ever since I heard that bhakthi is not required in CM, (At the extreme, it was said that even the composers were more music-minded than bhakthi-minded) I have been rolling it in my mind. I would like to blurt out here my thoughts that I have been jotting since then. It is not cogently argued.

As the annals of India suggest, religion has been imbedded in all walks of life. There is hardly an activity which is not impregnated with belief. Right or wrong, that is India’s flavour. Paradoxical as it may appear, Bengalis who have supported Marxism vociferously celebrate Durga Puja with undiminished fervor. Vivekananda said that religion is the live wire of India. Anything that is Indian is connected with god in a direct or indirect way. I do not know whether it is changing, but it will take a long while for the change to percolate if it is happening.

Music has developed alongside religion. We talk of raga swarupa, form for what may be abstract, and raga devata, something mysterious for what is susceptible to auditory sense and magnetizing to the mind. The trinity and those before or after them were rooted in bhakti unless they had a secret inner self known only to the secularist.

Even in the secular song thunbam nerkaiyil, the underlying idea of a dependence, a longing, produces a spiritual feeling akin to the pangs felt by gopis or the innate affinity of the jiva for brahman.

Music is one of those moments of experience where we sense a unity forgetting the ‘reality’ of life and its nagging concerns. Even as we listen to the pranks of Krishna, the dance of Siva or the compassion of a divine mother, we get beyond the idol and story to the wholeness of life, its verve and charm.

Bhakthi is when there is truth in heart, says Bharathi. Bhakthi is wisdom in action, says Rajaji. Bhakthi is consciousness of Brahman in us , says Sankara. Bhakthi is not just a meek surrender to an unknown, but a passionate longing for truth. It may manifest in manifold ways but music is perhaps the most expressive as suggested by the preponderance of lyrical poetry steeped in bhakthi.

Bhakti is mindful engagement with what one is doing. In puja and prayer, it has for focus a deity or god. In patriotism, it has the idea of a nation as the focus. God is the name for the driving spirit of the universe. It is undeniable that there is such a force, but non-believers ascribe it to nature or mechanical forces. Believers see a conscious mind behind the universe.

Even in the music of those who are apathetic to bhakthi (not my judgement, but the way the singers see themselves) sing with so much passion taking great pains to adhere to what has been considered the limits of a given raga, but letting creativity take over, that it generates that feeling we call bhakthi, though they may not believe in it.

Hamlet sees the passionate acting of the role of one Hecuba by an actor and he soliloquises, ‘Who is Hecuba to him or he to Hecuba?’ in regretting that he has not acted with due conviction in the theme of revenge. The actor is not transformed to the role he is performing, but acting requires that he come close to it during that role play. If a composer has meaning and if that meaning has bhakthi, the artist will be true to his job in emoting that bhakthi while rendering it even if his belief differs. That will be honesty – acting the role as a musician.

In the book ‘Absorption’ (about the functioning of the mind, attention, consciousness), Johannes Bronkhorst, the author, opines, “..the most prominent and perhaps the only universal context of music is that of religion: music is used everywhere to communicate with, glorify and/or serve the divinities within any particular culture.”

Bhakthi animates CM like life animates physical body as it were.
Both religion (as different from spirituality) and music (as different from the property of sound) in their concretised form are human creations. If they have cohabited, even if not solemnized in marriage, there may be no need to separate them forcefully.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 19 Dec 2015, 09:24

@kvchellapa, Sir, here's something for you : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eqcm1jm9aU

Do listen to a scintillating rendition of it by T.Mukta at the link below
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/tributes/ ... io/krithis#

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 19 Dec 2015, 10:44

I am posting the copy of my comment on 'Style over Soul' article of Sri M.Suresh in The Hindu.

"I am truly shocked observing misconceptions and misunderstanding in the art form of music practice and appreciation. Art form of music, Indian Classical, Karnataka and Hindustani music are with the goal and objective of materialism; realism; idealism, similar to Vedanta and its goals and objectives. Idealism for Bhakthi-Keertana, atma nivedana forms in nava vidha bhakthi, sanmarga; Realism for Bhakthi for the lakshya and lakshana aspects, Vidwath, Vaggeyakara's and their exemplary compositions, Guru, Bani and discerning rasikas; Materialism for attainment of popularity with just means of style, individuation, talent, skills, delivery of pleasure of excitement, surprises and recall. Truth of fact (not belief) is art form practitioner with idealism, rare of the rarest; with realism, significant in numbers; with twin goals& objectives of realism and materialism, also significant in numbers; with materialism, the vast majority. Rasikas, true followers of practitioners"'.

munirao2001

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Dec 2015, 11:14

I don't we are using the same definition/connotation of bhakthi as in the originally published article.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 19 Dec 2015, 11:30

Is the Mylapore resident quoted in the article our forumite Sri Sivaramakrishnan?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 19 Dec 2015, 11:38

Srinathk: This link http://www.sangeethapriya.org/tributes/ ... o/krithis# takes me to a huge list, not to nadopasana by Mukthamma.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 19 Dec 2015, 11:55

@kvchellappa, Do Ctrl + F, and type in the bar, you will find the recording.

The author of the article seems to define bhakti as the more introspective, soulful, emotional, meditative component of the music, which he feels is giving way to louder, faster, more cerebral, "show-offy" and you could say more "artificial" style of presentation.

But apart from the decibel levels, the rest is an issue of age and experience and a generation gap. All the older generation artistes also were flashier in their youth and more mellowed in old age. The author of the article is easily a generation or 2 older than the current upcoming stars and so it's not really fair to compare a 20 year old youngster to an 80 year old senior.

Plus the audience also must do the honors of passing the torch to a new generation of rasikas (something which the older generation in my opinion is failing to do as much as they should). But knowing the average audience member, I'll assure you that even back in the golden old days, introspective music like that of Brinda and Mukta never quite got anywhere near the same takers.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Dec 2015, 14:09

The author of the article seems to define bhakti as the more introspective, soulful, emotional, meditative component of the music, which he feels is giving way to louder, faster, more cerebral, "show-offy" and you could say more "artificial" style of presentation.

Where does Semmangudi fit?

jodha · Post by **jodha** » 19 Dec 2015, 14:34

Bhakthi needs to be defined first.Most think of bhakthi as a reverence to some thing superior to us.But actually bhakthi means knowing your real IDENTITY where you are told to realize that you are that which is present everywhere and not this limited perishable body.O.K,I agree,many will not be able to grasp such weighty things.But even while singing a kriti like Etijenamithiha, I have found most of the artists present without imbibing its meaning.This has been happening for many years in CM not just now.There are few exceptions like may be musiri.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 19 Dec 2015, 15:03

To establish clarity and understanding on the Sanskrit akshara, Bhakthi, Shvetatasvatara Upanishad gives its meaning as devotion, love in any endeavor, with active participation. The literal meaning also includes, attachment,fondness,faith, worship, piety. Other sacred texts and teachings expand for interpretations of path (spiritual) and movement (collective). It is spirit,lower, apara vidya, with upadhis, limitations or illlimitations,in ignorance of illusion or delusion. Our usage and interpretations confirm,upadhis.

munirao2001

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 20 Dec 2015, 08:54

An opinion (Jan 2013): " ‘If veteran vocalist Seetha Narayanan never fails to impress, it is because she tethers her concert to the raison d’etre of Carnatic music – bhakti."

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 21 Dec 2015, 11:16

sureshvv wrote:Actually I think CM is the only authentic Bhakthi left. Bhakthi has largely become commerce (between individuals or individual & God).

Yup.. Just hear this five minutes into it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATrTv0tHH5M
tAnam that flows usually in 3s and 5s and 7s - is stretched. There are no lyrics ( though Anandam is mentioned in Lec Dems). No god or deity is attributed directly. But there is an inherent quality to it that makes it larger than the mundane world. There is lot of poise much of it gained during the “being part of the problem” years.
Once the kArvai is held like that ( Does he have a good sustaining one! - some of the doyens of golden Era would envy him) a sense of meditation has set in. I don't know what subjectivity can be attributed to that. All his arguments off stage fail on stage.

srkris wrote: About it drifting away from Isvara-bhakti, I am not too concerned about it.

I am concerned about the cultural and civilizational roots - not somebody's personal faith or depth of it.

srkris wrote: Bhakti means to give something its due share.

In the vedic language (i.e. pre-sanskrit) it was used with reference to give the appropriate deva (deity) their share (bhaga) of the havya (food offering/oblation)

By wanting to rid rAma (the two syllables ) of it's under-pinnings ( even as a civilizational asset - I will come to why that could be one) they want to perform an equivalent of Daksha yagna - where as verses were recited - the syllables "siva" and any direct/indirect references to it were purged even as part of the rendering. Even a vIra vaishnava has to recite them if they occur in vEdic chanting.

We hear things like:
"how does it matter if I sing on Rama or his shoes"! (TMK in Manthan speech). Yeah! rAma or marA (it's anagram) - the marA (wooden in Dravidian) padukas ( foot wear) - both part of Narada's intervention in Valmiki's life.

Let’s take it as the story of a milleniums of transition from Hunter Gatherer to Agrarian to Chanting civilization all summarized in one scene ( the accepted history) - the colonizers who came east found a mix of all of them. At least some soft power should be attributed to the chanting as the kings had long been vanquished and whoever was left dispossessed quickly - the chanters became Clerks, lawyers , Judges and the hunters became sepoys. At least some of them in their nationalist fervor setup institutions that we revere today. They could have just hung out in Clubs.

We know what happened in the West. I understood history in 2 minutes when I stepped into the Columbus Ship museum in Corpus Christie - as the sailor explained to me how the Pope divided West and East between Spanish and the Portuguese. In the Manthan speech that precedes T.M. Krishna's , Dushyant Dave cites the treatment of Red Indians as a prime example as how to treat our own descendants of Valmiki's purvASrama. I see them barely hanging on to their reservations in North America - while one among them wrote the Constitution and we give reservation in all walks of public sphere. Let’s just say that there is enormous progress to be made on either side. I am in no way implying that Chanting is some superior trait - as Valmiki must have lost quite a bit of work skills and other world skills as he became a chanter. I also saw the movie vEdam putithu. We have to take that for what it is worth and give that it’s due credit!

"God heads all have instruments - do any of them sing? (Kumaresh's Ted talk at NIIT Suratkal)" The singing tradition from Narada - through Valmiki downstream is downgraded to promote his instrumental techniques as music. In the context of the discussion we have to assume that he is talking about Godheads as some archaeological artifact – which is still a human fascination with instruments more than singing. He does identify some markers like the long bow and the short bow ( Thank Him). Yup. rA is a long bow ma is shorter one. Easily de-secularized. Or the long bow of Rama or the short bow - eyebrows of Sita. How does it matter if we sing on Rama or his bow or bow-ish eye brows of Sita. A poetic note: Rama's bow has curvature whereas the violin bow is straight.

Boy oh boy did the Doyens put in quite an effort to produce that curvature in the violin. If it is all otta swarams ( single syllables with no elongation) – we can have a good contest like the one between TMT and KVN recalled by somebody in a Lec Dem.

MSG with all his techniques - has a ruchi at the frills edge - and I guess if you zoomed in on his virtuosity - there will be ruchi to some degree in each syllable – sort of self similar fractals – OK I am exaggerating but you all get the point!

And now this one takes the cake.
"tamizhagam engaladu nAttai kurinji enbAr" pallavi cited as an example of a secular pallavi!( Sanjay’s speech at Alathur Centenary). I thought secular progressives scoffed at all nationalisms. “Janani Janma bhUmisca swargAtapi garIyasi” - I wonder if the Janani makes it secular or Janma bhUmi makes it one. We should check with various moms what that feeling is when their kids jaw bones move in mother tongues. Especially the Moms (Janani) of his NRI students – how much effort it is to make it move and all the other eco systems like the local community and the teachers (Janma bhUmi) in far away land that fosters it. All human effort no doubt – but no feelings or devotion in it? Just the rA without the rolling Peter accent will cut it!. Or the zha in Tamizh close to that accent.

If we conduct our dialogue in the categories established by the West of God, Religion and Secularism – this is the slippery slope.

The narrative we used to hear from the somebody like Shri Suki Sivam at Shri KRM’s sabha ( Srutilaya Astika Samajam) will go like:
In the pallavi of a kriti the first line is longer – denotes swami ( lord’s) pAdam ( foot) and the second line shorter ( as it has more pause at the arudhi – the mid point break) – denotes Ambal’s ( pirAttiyar) pAdam.

A TNS will follow it up with “layattulEyum cinnadu perusu enru ulladu” – there are shorts and longs in laya.

From there we have progressed to what we just heard from YACM ers. I am truly fascinated by all their speeches. Aha sabash balE!
I know they cannot connect with the diverse Audience today with that kind of narrative. But they all are lot more qualified and intelligent to present this heritage better to the public at large whatever be the fora.

They are falling over each other declaring bankruptcy against the civilizational and ancestral debt (rishi RNam and pitru RNam) at the altar of the new intelligentsia – even as they seem to pay it back richly on stage. They are hesitant of admitting that. That seems to be a requirement to gain legitimacy before the music can be taken to the have-nots.

As regards Bhakti, the Bhakti movement was promoted in our historiography as an alternative that challenged the hegemony of the ritualistic tradition of the bramhanas by the historians and their fascination with challenge to power. That virtue of a trait has become a large burden to the conduct of our public affairs if you listen to Dushyant Dave’s quotations from Dr Ambedkar. I read Goplakrishna Gandhi quoting the same in one of his articles.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 21 Dec 2015, 13:26

Slow down please! You are moving from one line of argument to another so fast that it is not clear exactly where you stand.

And now this one takes the cake.
"tamizhagam engaladu nAttai kurinji enbAr" pallavi cited as an example of a secular pallavi!( Sanjay’s speech at Alathur Centenary). I thought secular progressives scoffed at all nationalisms. “Janani Janma bhUmisca swargAtapi garIyasi” - I wonder if the Janani makes it secular or Janma bhUmi makes it one.

1. I don't think "tamizahagam" belonged there.

2. "secular" in this context meant "non religious" or "multi religious", i.e. no bias towards any one religion.

3. The sanskrit sloka is not even a close translation.

4, Secular progressives may scoff at jingoism. I don't think nationalism in the form presented in the pallavi is exclusionary in any sense.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Dec 2015, 14:49

Sureshvv,
Your point: 2 about being secular is bound to be an eye opener to many--that it can also mean samatva bhAvA (seeing no differences among fellow-beings even if they differ in their beliefs).Or, is it again an interpretation of my own?

So, with all that has been said, we realize that the word bhakthi is after all a tough one. How each one of us clutch on to it with our own set of convictions makes it all the more impossible to define it.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 21 Dec 2015, 21:15

I realize why Bhakti has become a burden - as it is increasingly employed in nara stuti! Something tyAgaraja cautioned us about.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Dec 2015, 08:07

shankarank,
'vizhalukku nIr pAychi mAya mATTOm', said Bharathi. That's what some of us seem to be doing in threads like this. We should perhaps be doing better things, like your continuing your lovely verses on Krishna and my going back to my little literary attempts...

The older the musicians, the more they are lauded here. Understandable. Nothing new in that.The older the rasikAs, a few here show less respect--this in a place where we had no age discrimination all in the past--from teens to those who had reached ninety. Now, the seniors are knocked by a few, just as they indulge in bringing down some younger musicians

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 22 Dec 2015, 10:48

sureshvv wrote: 1. I don't think "tamizahagam" belonged there.

So it is ciranda instead of tamizhagam. I must have heard tamizhagam with TNS in Houston long back. nAttai kurinji is a Tamizh paN if I am not mistaken. So even with ciranda , with pun in there it refers to some region of tamizh country?. Well all of it is not kurinji. I am more referring to a sense of a native place inferred there.

sureshvv wrote: 3. The sanskrit sloka is not even a close translation.

Sanskrit sloka also refers to a native place. If it is kurinji (mountainous region) it is as blissful as swarga with lakes etc.

sureshvv wrote: 2. "secular" in this context meant "non religious" or "multi religious", i.e. no bias towards any one religion.

Those two verses and their translations are more closer in meaning than the word secular is to either of them - where we have the burden of translating the latter to lot of things in our own ways as it suits. We would rather carry this burden than the burden of Bhakti.

sureshvv wrote: 4, Secular progressives may scoff at jingoism. I don't think nationalism in the form presented in the pallavi is exclusionary in any sense.

I read an interview of historian Romila Thapar referring to nationalism not jingoism as problematic.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Dec 2015, 11:06

shankarank wrote: I am more referring to a sense of a native place inferred there.

Yes. That is the correct sense. "tamizhagam" carries additional baggage.

Sanskrit sloka also refers to a native place.

Yes. That they have in comnon. No explicit value judgment in the pallavi line.

Those two verses and their translations are more closer in meaning than the word secular is to either of them .

Disagree. See above for key difference.

I read an interview of historian Romila Thapar referring to nationalism not jingoism as problematic.

Is she your ideal for "secular progressive"? That may be part of the problem.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 22 Dec 2015, 21:19

sureshvv wrote:
shankarank wrote: I am more referring to a sense of a native place inferred there.
Yes. That is the correct sense. "tamizhagam" carries additional baggage.

I see how you omitted my reference to tamizh paN. In all it's meanings it refers to a homeland, then the ancestry of the rAga (engalatu), as well as the rAga itself - all of them considered dEvatas ( see how I avoid the word God) . People adhering to homeland's values, revering ancestral (ancestral debt) traditions and loyal to rAga's lakshana with a sense of devotion - all very specific. If all of this secular - then that is also inbuilt. You ask yourself what secular means - as my stand is it does not have a translation - hence cannot be used in our cultural context.

That is the whole point of my post. You are worried about translation issues between a Sanskrit Sloka and a tamizh pallavi.

It seems as soon as a dEvata which has an idol representation ( form) and has tradition of worship ( Agama) and is referred in a kriti it suddenly becomes exclusionary and we lose samatva. That is a fantastic idea. When we have so many sects listening to these kritis!

As regards Romila Thapar, at least TMK was seen tweeting her interview in response to all this debate. It seems she used to worry about what kind of society to build post independence sitting in JNU. I saw vgovindan's post on the Colonel and his wife drowning in floods in Chennai with nobody to help. Too late to feel for that. He might have as well drowned in avalanche defending the country up at the mountain tops. If we had thought of that sacrifice ( even as he served) in every society building - at least we would have built much better one. We need to shift the core of our society building!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Dec 2015, 22:57

shankarank wrote: I see how you omitted my reference to tamizh paN.

Yes. I have omitted that and plenty of other extraneous things . Let us stick to just the words in the pallavi please, so we can conclude that it does not have any religious connotation.

1. ciranta engalatu nattai kurinji enbar

Devotion to raga devtaas or the department of homeland may be part of your emotional response but they are not in the pallavi.

Let me give you the words of a couple of other pallavis that I heard recently.

2. Namami umakumaram kshama karam ganesham | Santatam manasa ||
3. Sri ramam chintaye | Jimuta shyamam ||

Do you see the difference?

That is the whole point of my post. You are worried about translation issues between a Sanskrit Sloka and a tamizh pallavi.

Yes. Because they are not translations of each other.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 23 Dec 2015, 02:05

The issue seems to be the Sanskritic interpretations and a substitute statement in Sanskrit which is not a direct literal translation of the pallavi in letter.

I definitely - wholeheartedly entertain the idea that as a Tamizh pallavi it may have non translatables which are unique to its cultural context. So I should not impose my Sanskritic emotional response onto it rite?

Now based on my objection to the categorical statement that the musician made , I am being asked a substitute statement to be made using the antonym in the categorization that is assumed to be the universal referee for resolving our differences. By the same token with which Sanskrit is rejected, my rejection of the characterization by the musician still stands.

By rejecting that, I am under no obligation to offer a substitute statement with opposites using the categories that I don't accept as well. Categories taught by Romila Thapar at the school if you know what I mean.

If the musician withdraws his characterization, I will also withdraw my emotional response with no substitute offered by either side. So we can leave the Pallavi to be received in the cultural context of where it is rendered. It could be anywhere from pure Tamizh heritage to somewhat Sanskritic and Tamizh combined, to pure Sanskrit. That still need not be subjective at the individual level - there is still a lot of shared cultural experience that cuts across individual feelings. But nevertheless we can leave it as it is.

So I don't have to answer the question you are asking. And my objection and all my interpretations still stand until the initial statement is withdrawn. Fair enough?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 23 Dec 2015, 07:55

Sanjay said that the pallavi is not addressed to any god (religion) or associated with spirituality (AnmIkam). That statement stands on its own and is verifiable. Further analysis leads to unintended implications.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 23 Dec 2015, 09:20

The whole thing unraveled because of the word secular

which apparently forms a pair of opposite with something extraneous?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 23 Dec 2015, 10:49

Okay. I think I get it. What you are saying is that secular is not the opposite of Bhakthi. Bhakthi exists even in secular activities & you definecBhakthi as identifying with something that is "larger" than you. With that definition, CM can never drift away from Bhakthi bcos at least the Bhakthi towards CM will be left.

Sanjay was talking about secular as opposed to religious/denominational.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 24 Dec 2015, 22:41

arasi wrote:shankarank,
'vizhalukku nIr pAychi mAya mATTOm', said Bharathi. That's what some of us seem to be doing in threads like this. We should perhaps be doing better things, like your continuing your lovely verses on Krishna and my going back to my little literary attempts...

Bharathi also has to be taken with a pinch of salt at times. He somewhat prematurely praised Russia puratchi. I am also reminded of paTTi mandrams organized by TAMBRAS in my place where I grew up - Bhartiyin koLkai dESiyama daIvIgamA - with a predictable ending judgement somewhere in between!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Jan 2016, 18:06

Arthur Thomson in Introduction to Science:
"At the end of his intellectual tether, man has never ceased to become religious."

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Jan 2016, 07:21

kvchellappa wrote:Arthur Thomson in Introduction to Science:
"At the end of his intellectual tether, man has never ceased to become religious."

For 'religious', substitute 'spiritual' - that would be better definition of an intellectual person; spirituality does include religiosity in its substance - religiosity may not necessarily include spirituality because it (religion) is more formality.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Jan 2016, 08:26

Govindan,
Exactly my thoughts! Religion does not merely mean religiousness (in the sense of being ritualistic)--if spirituality is not part of it, there is the danger of losing that connection with Divinity.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 02 Jan 2016, 09:07

Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

I always thought of CM drifting on an ocean of Bhakthi. To keep drifting until we find our anchor

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 02 Jan 2016, 10:50

arasi wrote:Govindan,
Exactly my thoughts! Religion does not merely mean religiousness (in the sense of being ritualistic)--if spirituality is not part of it, there is the danger of losing that connection with Divinity.

As we have the discussion whether the Gen Next is performing with Bhakti ( or Spirituality - I suppose you are using some universal definition of it!) - lets just assume they are doing it somewhat ritualistically - if we assume that they are only reveling in their technicalities and the thrill it produces - still I would say they are in the process of receiving a generational communication - which is what rituals are supposed to do.

They will probably discover the spirituality once they get into that age and see the frustrations of life - so lets not discount that possibility even as we observe them doing this seemingly agnostic.

I thought it relevant to also raise questions on our existential issues - roots etc. which are also part of that generational communication.

You can see the limits of intellect in the postings of our esteemed member Sri Muni Rao - I have been reading since the Cherished Goals thread - and I don't see much of conversation between him and others!. Many times he loses me before the sentence completes.

But at least in my approach of symbolism , metaphor etc., one member chased me!

If you ask physicists why Classical Newtonian physics is intuitive and we seem to understand it like fish takes to water - they would say that is our theater of evolution. It seems we performed a million year ritual jumping trees in the orders of few seconds and escaping dangers in the order of few meters - before we could understand Newtonian physics.

But Feynman himself could not spin the quantum spin in plain English - when asked to do so. Knowing something in one's bones is no longer a figurative expression!.

Digression now!: I believe golden era listeners swayed to ARI's madyamakala - because it's time signature and scale is in the human theater of evolution!. So as I sat in Musiri Chamber listening to Smt. T Mukta about 12 years back - a whisper campaigner caught up with me - " You are too young to be listening to this! what are you doing here!" He was probably right - I could remember only Abhimana Mennadugalgu Rama in madyama kala for it's impeccable execution.

Same happened with MDR and his angArakam - there is a very slow version where he is in his own world - and the one closer to Madyama kala - where he himself audibly reacts to the effect of music. ARI smiles!

Back to Bhakti: I wouldn't be here if My Grand Father didn't lead me to margazhi street bhajans - where once I split the "ara" caraNa-ara-vinda of a Bhadracala Ramdasar kirtana ( palaymam Sri rukmini nayaka) across the samam - and received a "hari" in appreciation. I don't recall if I had bhakti or thrills!. I was just too young for Bhakti!.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 02 Jan 2016, 11:15

And I guess TMK was ritualistic all these years being part of the problem and he is getting into spirituality now? asking all these questions ?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Jan 2016, 10:41

Religion is like CM, requiring exposure, initiation and interest. Neither is essential for life, but with it one feels life is worthier. Spirituality is when one is in what one is doing. In music, we see it when MS sings; she becomes what she sings.
The lyrics of CM are predominantly connected with religion and CM has become associated with religion in this way.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 04 Jan 2016, 00:15

Here is a link for nA jIvAdhara - bilahari by Maharajapuram Santhanam - https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=B ... file%2cmp3

Here is the link for the lyrics of the kRti - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -raga.html

Is this religion or spirituality? Spirituality transcends religion. Spirituality does not necessarily need the crutch of a religion - religion is often a stepping stone for spirituality. Religion without spirituality is simply ritual. Great vAggEyakkAras like Sri tyAgarAja were essentially spiritual. Spirituality awakens man. But religion may awaken him or may make him a brute. Spirituality broadens vision; religion without spirituality narrows down vision.

CM's foundation is in spirituality. Our educational orientation - which concentrates only on securing a job - bereft of moral and ethical moorings, have made us to forget our culture and traditions and their contribution towards wholesome living. The comparison of AyurvEda which treats the man and allopathy which treats the symptom - is very much relevant to CM. We have lost the wholesomeness of Music - not for ever. There is a parallel thread which discusses about HM vs CM. The aspect of bhAva which is essential for an artist is the essential difference. That bhAva comes naturally from spirituality, while it is required to be cultivated for other performers - otherwise, the coinage 'soulful singing' would not have come up.

PS : This song is sung in a tempo which is not suitable for this kRti. It should be sung in a less boisterous manner and in slow tempo to bring out the depth.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Jan 2016, 00:29

Nailed it there kvchellappa. Those who argue ( not sure who ) that CM and Bakthi/religion/spirituality need to be kept separate need to think again. Lyrics provide a lot of emotional context and for a spiritually oriented person, when such lyrical bhava and musical bhava come together, the effect is multiplied. Who can argue with that, most of us have felt that ourselves multiple times. That is the hook of CM for a lot of us.

But that is only one side of the coin. Does that necessarily mean CM can not have the same success/usefulness/utility in non-bhakthi contexts? I believe that such utility exists in non-bakthi contexts but I may be in the minority. But that is an area that tambram as a community has to assess for themselves. They have been supporting the art form and so their collective opinion does have an effect on the overall practice.

Let us use our own Arasi's 'Engirundo Vandai Penne!' CD sung by R. Suryaprakash as a case in point. The themes are non-bhakthi in the usual sense. It is a unique CD in that they are concert worthy compositions set in classical ragas with no compromises, in non-bhakthi themes that actually say something significant about the roles women play in men's life. Lyrics are top class, musical tuning goes along well with the emotional content of the words for the same multiplicative effect and sung by a top class CM professional singer. Mainstream CM community may not yet be be accepting of one such songs as the main, may be the place to start including such songs is in some thematic presentations and let them seep in and see if they gain acceptance.

One may ask why we need to do that. My answer is simple: they have great utility just like how spiritually oriented compositions have utility in people's lives. Quoting kvchellappa above, with them one can feel life is worthier. Exact emotional reactions will vary from person to person. The degree to which one allows for such contemplation also varies but contemplated and deeper human relations lead to living a worthy life.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 04 Jan 2016, 12:29

I am making yet another attempt for clarity and understanding. Vedanta teaches Bhakthi, upadhi, ascribed limitations of lower self, lower spirit, atman, in ignorance. In attainment of pure knowledge, liberation, liberation from desires, in raising, in unity, higher self, higher spirit, paramatman. While the first state is exoteric, physical the later state is esoteric, psychological, metaphysical.
Indian Classical Music, Karnataka Sangeetham, makes the use of exoteric, sahithya bhavam for rasa, pleasure and esoteric, raga bhavam for rasa, higher pleasure or bliss. Practitioners only or more in relationship with exoteric, physical, they enjoy and partake or deliver such associated pleasure to the rasikas, making use of esoteric, raga bhavam. Practitioners constitute this kind with very few exceptions of the other, higher in state, esoteric, psychological. Very few exceptional practitioners, with experience in the practice of exoteric, realizing the waning away of pleasure, of one's own, in observation, in reflection, in introspection, in meditation, in analysis, in determination, in will, perceive the esoteric, its resplendent, self illuminating,beauty of svra/raga bhavam. Their sense of mind in pleasure, urges partaking with rasikas such pleasure, even when met with resistance and challenges, with commitment of righteousness, righteousness of a performer. This perceiving, acting and serving practitioner has risen beyond lower self, lower spirit to higher self, higher spirit. This is the truth, truth of fact, fact of being spiritual. Being spiritual with Bhakthi, higher. Rest, with bhakthi, lower, in ignorance, this is the truth, truth of belief, belief of being ritualistic, being in heightened emotion with vulnerability, vulnerability of overtly expressive, theatrical, in worship, in following, with bhakthi or without bhakthi, being truly not spiritual.

munirao2001

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 04 Jan 2016, 20:53

VK, I agree with you.
Somehow I feel CM is saturated in bhakthi and a few including the latest SK want to take it away from it (I read again his interview posted in another thread as a recall). But, he does not go hammer and tongs about it.
I simply feel that we need not be apologetic why CM is so much into bhakthi or Brahmin-centric. We must of course share it out if there is a demand, and even those with bhakthi would like to do it.
Whether, we talk science or vedanta, we deal with a world of appearance and the 'reality' is elusive to our naked senses, appliances or intellect. To think that bhakthi alone is irrational or a burden seems to be as prejudiced as that not believing in god is a sin.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 05 Jan 2016, 10:46

vasanthakokilam wrote:Nailed it there kvchellappa. Those who argue ( not sure who ) that CM and Bakthi/religion/spirituality need to be kept separate need to think again.

The word religion is still problematic. It evokes a sense of n commandments and a prophet. In the Indian context if we were to search for a meaning for it - we make up one all the time and prophets are still coming and going

We seem to use these terms as though we were born with it.

vasanthakokilam wrote: Lyrics provide a lot of emotional context and for a spiritually oriented person, when such lyrical bhava and musical bhava come together, the effect is multiplied. Who can argue with that, most of us have felt that ourselves multiple times. That is the hook of CM for a lot of us.

Do we understand these all the time from the rasika end? - in a concert? unless we consciously made an effort to learn the meaning? I don't know about musicians - not saying anything. If that is so, why so many pre-trinity compositions face an uphill struggle to come to limelight as main items?

vasanthakokilam wrote: But that is only one side of the coin. Does that necessarily mean CM cannot have the same success/usefulness/utility in non-bhakthi contexts?

At least you now use the term Non-Bhakti instead of secular - which you used last time when you weighed on this – that is a great progress!

When it's comes to Bhakti BhAva - tyAgaraja and Syama Sastri are more into it - with Dikshitar focussing on ritual, mystical , stala purANa and other philosophical details.

Also it seems odd that recent posts on the history and evolution of CM are somewhat skirting the discussion on padams and javalis. Have we bought into the remapping done of nAyaka - nAyaki bhAva into purANic themes totally? Do we think those are Bhakthi themes now?

Nayaka – Nayaki bhava is as emotionally intense as Bhakti and that is probably why that is expressed using this musical idiom.

The anti-nautch measure makes for a contentious discussion - T.M. Krishna attributes that to the culmination of Hindutva resurgence of late 19th Century period in his book. To get to the truth of that we follow the dictum of - to know the truth read the business press - proposed by the God of liberals: Chomsky. Every time new industry moves in we see how there is mention of disciplined labor force in certain state or region. So I guess we wanted to show the powers that be how truly reformed and refurbished we can be - to serve their agenda. So in that sense if by Hindutva we mean a post colonial construction in the context of new economic and social conditions - that certainly caused it - I agree!.

It took us a couple of generations of Macaulay-an education to get to that. And it took as a few more to bring in terms like religion/secular to dissect our own culture!

vasanthakokilam wrote: I do not think so but that is a problem tambram as a community has to analyze for themselves. They have of course been disproportionately supporting the art form and so their collective opinion does have an effect on the overall practice.

Even with sabhas replacing courts of kings – music was still alive in kanda saShtis and Adi veLLis – especially the rhythmic idiom of Carnatic music was transmitted to listeners outside of the tAmbram community. I don’t know how many padams and jAvalis or other worldly stuff were rendered there! I am referring to the Madurai Somu / Kunnakkudi Vaidayanathan circuit. Kunnakkudi moved on to include Cine numbers as the night progressed.

Then there are the likes of Soolamangalam Sisters as well. If you consider their rendition of kandar anubUti and kanda saShti kavacam ( an 18th Century composition) , you will see the difference in musicality – even though we don’t have the original tunes. Do we understand the meaning of these fully? Even to enjoy them with Devotional sense ? let alone just a musical sense?

Arunagirinathar (who by the way had a fore life where devadAsIs figured prominently) had chandas given to him – a belief. In this LecDem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1ifDRJL1Wo Dr Sriram Parasuram – who IMO seems to be a worthy ambassador for CM to the uninitiated - is of the view that the rhythmic structure itself implies they (Arunagiri’s works) were sung than recited.

In fact you can define CM with this expression:
Kandar anubhuthi –(minus) kanda Sashti kavacam
OR
Dr BMK minus SPB in Sankarabaranam movie
(Wish Dr BMK had sung in there – but he also wanted the role apparently so that jinxed the whole thing)
OR
Dr BMK minus Ghantasala.
All of them are technically equivalent of each other and consider only the Rhythmic approach of compositions/persons. Melody is not even in the picture!

Such music was reaching many people beyond whom we think as mainstream CM rasikas. But after some point the Chandas – the very base of music was not heard by a generation of people. It was systematically discredited by the cultural cleansing and degradation.
So if T.M. Krishna talks about a beedi smoking drunk person in Kerala asking for 10 minutes of kambOji for Rs 10 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3p2TL8V1Uw and wonders why he did not run into them in Tamil Nadu - that loss of Chandas is one reason. Kerala still has those sounds playing out there and there is still reverence for Chandas.

So it is not just Tambram community that forced the pursuit of Bhakti based themes. And Bhakti themes are not the reason for others to shun CM. They did not take the artistic components of it to make other types of compositions with it – except maybe the film industry that took some tunes – but not the rhythmic formations.

vasanthakokilam wrote: Let us use our own Arasi's 'Engirundo Vandai Penne!' CD sung by R. Suryaprakash as a case in point. The themes are non-bhakthi in the usual sense. It is a unique CD in that they are concert worthy compositions set in classical ragas with no compromises, in non-bhakthi themes that actually say something substantial about the roles women play in men's life.

You know why Women are not priests and don’t enter the Sanctum Sanctorum? Because a child birth is equal to death and they are already equal to divinity and they don’t need to do these rituals. If you don’t have those beliefs fine – Non Bhakti themes are already part of the music.

I only object to the use of the word secular, to cause a separation of something. It reeks of an effort to uproot and position the artistic elements outside the contextual roots to facilitate harvesting by others – something that has happened throughout history. The practitioners were misguided for some time about some of those themes – but today we recognize and celebrate the values of those.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Jan 2016, 12:41

shankarank,
About women not being priests, your reason brings noble sentiments in which any woman would appreciate, but there would have been other lesser reasons for that, I'm afraid...

My apologies to you and fellow-poet sankark for taking your posts for his initially

That was why that reference to poetry writing

Patriotism is a noble strain in humans, another facet of spirituality.

A few artistes sing in praise of one god after an other in a concert, but it does not necessarily move me. However scholarly and technically excellent they may be, I do not get what I'm looking for in a concert which has very little in emotive impact. Music itself is divine, and we go to listen to it, expecting it to enable us get closer to it...

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 06 Jan 2016, 18:24

arasi : shankarank,
About women not being priests, your reason brings noble sentiments in which any woman would appreciate, but there would have been other lesser reasons for that, I'm afraid...

Life without modern facilities, modern medicine and sanitation standards was much harsher -- that was the real reason. Throw out everything from the induction stove to the Internal combustion engine to the electric fan and the washing machine and THEN it becomes quite clear -- there wouldn't have been any other way. You know I think we really need to be more open about the truths of the past rather than hide it with some nice sounding beliefs which are nevertheless just cover ups.

This issue of CM is not new. One only need to see the evolution of Tamil Cinema songs -- the oldest drama and film songs in CM came about for the very same reasons we talk about on this thread -- of course, we all know where Tamil cinema eventually went over time.

vasanthakokilam : Does that necessarily mean CM can not have the same success/usefulness/utility in non-bhakthi contexts? I believe that such utility exists in non-bakthi contexts but I may be in the minority. But that is an area that tambram as a community has to assess for themselves. They have been supporting the art form and so their collective opinion does have an effect on the overall practice.

VK, if only TMK would also consider the impact of film music and then the subsequent impact of all other genres from rock and roll to blues and hip-hop ... for whatever reason, he has kept very silent about the single most important reason why the overwhelming majority don't think much about CM.

Here's another question, how many of those genres have any of their most popular pieces running longer than 10 minutes? Or even 5?

Also to the question as to why CM is more bhakti centric are very clear if you have the stats.

Annamacharya ~ 20000+ at the very least. About a hundred of them are in mainstream CM repertoire, but his shringara padams have never been tuned to the standards of a Kshetragna one.
Purandaradasa ~ Despite that 475000 figure, only few thousand have survived to this day. MLV alone had a repertoire of more than a thousand of these which had been notated in the old Purandara Mani Mala (I don't know if any copy survives -- anyone who finds one, PLEASE scan and share!!)
Abhangs -- There are thousands of them out there. Only a few dozen are doing the rounds in mainstream CM methinks.
Thyagaraja - about 700 extant compositions.
Dikshitar - around 500
Syama Sastri and family - around 70
Oothukaadu - 590 as per the stats on the website. About 300 are around.
Papanasam Sivan - 2000 or so. Don't know how many are around.
Harikesanallur Mutiah Bhagavatar ~ 400 maybe?

I did not list all the composers, so don't say I didn't. I can't.

Do the research, take a good look at all the others who composed in CM -- it's mostly bhakti oriented or rasas-oriented. That's what we've got, so that's what we sing and play. It is that simple.

Which is why it's hard for any new composer to become popular (by new I mean newly known, the composer may be from 2016 or very well date back to ancient times) -- there are way too many compositions out there already. How many here are familiar with at least 2000 compositions, in any genre? The answer is more than you might think, still it's only a handful. The toll on your memory is enormous.

I know a lot of people say padams and javalis didn't get the recognition they deserved because of their themes, but I think it is the impact of madhyama kala music with the mridangam dictating the energy level that caused the slower pieces to move to the background. The Madhyama kala is the easiest tempo to pick up the rhythm of a composition, anything faster is fireworks, anything slower is subtle. It took a different level of musician to sing those with the same magnificence of a concerto, and another kind of experienced listener to appreciate it. After almost 20 years of listening to music, only now I have acquired the knowledge to understand the melodic intricacies of slow speed gamakas.

One thing I do agree with, is that the collapse of the devadasi system meant that the art lost huge volumes of repertoire that were passed on by oral tradition for generations within hundreds of families dedicated exclusively to the arts. We don't know what we lost sadly, so we've got to go with what we've got. And so, we've got bhakti compositions - tons and tons of 'em.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 06 Jan 2016, 22:04

SrinathK wrote:
arasi : shankarank,
About women not being priests, your reason brings noble sentiments in which any woman would appreciate, but there would have been other lesser reasons for that, I'm afraid...
Life without modern facilities, modern medicine and sanitation standards was much harsher -- that was the real reason. Throw out everything from the induction stove to the Internal combustion engine to the electric fan and the washing machine and THEN it becomes quite clear -- there wouldn't have been any other way. You know I think we really need to be more open about the truths of the past rather than hide it with some nice sounding beliefs which are nevertheless just cover ups.

It is with the newly acquired industrial might and all the conceptions that come up with it that we tend to judge the past. It is with that newly acquired imperial power and under the aegis of it that anti-nautch bill was enacted - judging the past.

arasi wrote: A few artistes sing in praise of one god after an other in a concert, but it does not necessarily move me. However scholarly and technically excellent they may be, I do not get what I'm looking for in a concert which has very little in emotive impact. Music itself is divine, and we go to listen to it, expecting it to enable us get closer to it..

In a setting where everything could be potentially considered divine in one respect or another it is difficult to see what Godliness is. God is another term after religion and secular that we need to give some thought to.

vgovindan wrote: PS : This song is sung in a tempo which is not suitable for this kRti. It should be sung in a less boisterous manner and in slow tempo to bring out the depth.

I am afraid we don't part take in the sorrow or any other bhAva of vAggEyakaras once they leave the world. Their life becomes a cause of celebration for all their achievements. Part taking in sorrow kind of thing and building a narrative on it happens elsewhere but not much in the Indian context.

We celebrate rAma's crowning glory ( paTTabhishekam) and don't much think about his travails for 14 years. He himself was all sumukha (smiling) and suvrata ( sworn to righteous conduct). In that setting of paTTabhishekam this rendition will fit naturally - with ringing tone of metallic Mridangam and a bass toppi providing (gambhIram) majesty . That is called Yagna bhava. In all the 14 years rAma was busy protecting so many yagnas. The artiste creates a joyful mood and shares it with all. That beats the kShIna bhava( depression).

So tyAgarAja's version of rAma Bhakti is only one available method and not exclusive. I don't know if all this "Composer's original intent" is part of our tradition - or it came from Western musicology!

How much ever tyAgarAja decries yagnas in his yagnAtulu - he cannot stop it - it is a much older tradition. He cannot fix us (engala tirutta mudiyatu). We are ritualistic revelers for sure. It is spreading for sure - from a kid that alights the stage to Sing a Sujana jIvana in tyAgarAja festival in Manitoba barely hanging on to Sruti to Abhishek Raghuram with Ananta in tiruvaiyAru reveling in the layam of it - we are all building a virtual Ayodhya with all Silk saris and what not. Ayodhya - a southern story if you want a theme!

You want spirituality and TMK wants the art. You can both part take in this yagna and take your due share or you can go separate ways!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 06 Jan 2016, 22:19

Here is another boisterous (?) version!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I62YqIZ3PTU

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 06 Jan 2016, 22:31

@vgovindan: Isn't the mythology of the song that Thyagaraja resuscitated a dead man with it? So may be some boisterousness is permissible?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 06 Jan 2016, 22:45

SSI brought some humor into it too! "atulE irrukira ellA sangatiyayum padi mudikaratukulla irrukara jivanum poyidum!" ( By the time we finish singing all the sangatatIs in that we will be dead!)