Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

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rshankar
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by rshankar »

arasi wrote: Again, when a few youngsters sing it as shummA shummA...that's not at all my cup of tea :)
Certainly cummA would not be in anyone's cup of tea, especially since it means a kiss in Hindi... ;)

Rsachi
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by Rsachi »

Not worth putting too fine a point! Some laxity exists across languages to allow Sa and even Sha to replace sa and vice versa. That is NOT in writing but in only pronouncing the letters.
Pronouncing Sha vs Sa requires careful training as given by good Sanskrit teachers.

Examples of popular changes: nartana saala Telugu movie. The famous north Indian namaSkAr! In Sanskrit itself, both vasiShTa and vaSiShTa are allowed.

kvchellappa
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by kvchellappa »

I have not paid attention to how non-Tamizh south Indians pronounce, but in the north, they appear to care. When I would say Shimla (षिमला) they would try to correct me to शिमला.

VK RAMAN
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by VK RAMAN »

I know north is a misnomer as people from each state west, central and north are grouped as north indians, they pronounce a word differently, like south Indians IMHO.

Aditto
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by Aditto »

Meenalochani wrote: MSS version - cannot clearly make out Charanam or Sharanam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qriC9ORBglY

MS sings Pankaja Charaana Saranam Saranam (Sharanam)


arasi
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by arasi »

Some story, Mahes--I mean, Mahesh!

sureshvv
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by sureshvv »

For these and other similar fine differences, among contemporary artistes, listen to Gayathri Girish. Her enunciation is abundantly clear and is also precise and accurate for the context.

Rsachi
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by Rsachi »

Hilarious, MaheshS!!!
Other association members such as Sankar, Sravan, Sailendra, Sridhar, Sivakumar, and Sasi, who used to be known by Shankar, Shravan, Shailendra, Shridhar and Shashi in happier days, had similar stories. Some have had it worse. For example, Shashikumar, has suffered a double whammy, losing both his ‘h’ and turning into Sasikumar. Shashank Sharma is inconsolable after being robbed of all three ‘h’, and now being known as Sasank Sarma.

The story, however, doesn’t end here. These men allege that it is the women who are stealing the ‘h’ from their names.

“Tell me from where does the ‘h’ in Kavitha, Latha, Seetha, Lalitha, and Shruthi come from?” asks Shankar.

“Back in UP and Delhi, I have only known names like Ekta, Geeta, Arati, Neeta, and Aditi. Now how come they are suddenly Ektha, Geetha, Arathi, Neetha, and Adhithi in this part of India?” asks Shailendra.
Image

Lakshman
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by Lakshman »

Many tamilians usually write kandha when it should be kanda but the don't write Indhu when the name is Indu.

VK RAMAN
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by VK RAMAN »

Interesting twist to the topic; let us get back to charanam sharanam - sharaNAgata vatsala rAmA sArvabhaumA

kvchellappa
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by kvchellappa »

In the south the ladies care for 'h' (husband) like SavitHri!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Quite funny..

I guess from now on I will have to call those cars Thatha Shumo, Thatha Shafari Shtorme.. Oh, I almost missed it.. The new one, Thatha Exa :)

Was any 'h' stolen from the name of the author - Saket Kalikar ? That would have been quite funny if it is indeed so :)

Rsachi
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by Rsachi »

Do you know there is a powerful brand of kitchenware called Gandhimathi Enterprises?

kvchellappa
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by kvchellappa »

Will North choose to write- Gandimati Enterpises- dealers in ktcenware?

Rsachi
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by Rsachi »

No sir, they will say "Pappu Rasoiwaala"

kvchellappa
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by kvchellappa »

Post 35: If கந்தா is from स्कन्ध, then kandha follows the unwritten convention of transliterating Samskritham words by Tamizh people.
As for Indu, it is इन्दु, and not इन्धु; hence the convention is followed.

rshankar
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by rshankar »

kvchellappa wrote:Post 35: If கந்தா is from स्कन्ध.
AFAIK, in sanskRt, it is skanda and not skandha- Rajani/Keerthi/Smt. Savitri - please clarify....

Rsachi
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by Rsachi »

I think "educated" Kannadigas get the श ष स right MOST of the time. Some vernacular vocabulary described as "apabhramsha" would take liberties but then it is not mispronunciation. The main advantage is the Kannada script which follows Sanskrit closely. A whole lot of Sanskrit books are typeset and studied in Kannada script for ease of dissemination. But that does not lead to pronunciation lapses.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Sachi, got it. My interaction with Kannadigas is quite skewed, mostly those who come to Kannada Koottas and they are culturally quite sensitive and I hear them pronounce sanskrit words very well. Also, they take pride in the fact that Kannada has a lot of words from Sanskrit. (and in light hearted manner I give a few of them that I know well a hard time that they don't want to acknowledge the overlap with Tamil and that I can actually understand quite a bit of what they say if I pay close attention ;) ).

I asked a few Telugu friends of mine and I will put them in the 'careless' lot. They were not dismissive but readily conceded they may not be correct all the time. They are educated ( as in masters and phd ) but casual about matters that we discuss here. On the other hand, a telugu lady who is part of the temple cultural programs, she is pretty good with all that and quite particular about them too.

>Some vernacular vocabulary described as "apabhramsha" would take liberties but then it is not mispronunciation.

Is it related to 'tatsama' vs 'tadbhava' distinction?

girish_a
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by girish_a »

Many years ago, a lady in our neighbourhood, who we used to call MaNi, got engaged and the marriage date was quite near. Around the same time, in a Tamilian household in the same locality, a baby boy was born, and we had all gone to their house to see the baby. A maami used to lord it over the others in their family and ran the household with an iron fist. MaNi was also there that day.

They hadn't yet named the baby, so naturally one of the ladies asked "What name will you give him?"

To which, the matriarch's daughter-in-law answered in her Madras Tamil accent, "Manigandan". Now, in Kannada, "ganda" means husband, and this led to uproarious laughter, with the aforesaid MaNi being the target of it.

kvchellappa
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by kvchellappa »

Sri Lakshman and Sri rshankar, I stand corrected.

Rsachi
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by Rsachi »

VKM,
apabhraMza is a derogatory word unlike tadbhava!
Image

And about maNiganDan, with the pun on ganDan, I have always felt that the word ganDa in Kannada for husband sometimes connects with gaNDa in Samskrita meaning "danger". So! :D
Otherwise comes from ganDu=man....

aaaaabbbbb
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by aaaaabbbbb »

rshankar jI,

*skandha*:: is the region from the neck to the shoulder joint.

regards.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Sachi. I get the difference now.

I read up on a few Wikipedia links on Tatsama, Tadbhava and also the tadbhava words in Tamil . Let me include those links here in case it is useful to others
Tadbhava ( import and change to suite the phonology of the importing language ): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadbhava
Tatsama (import and use as is ) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatsama
Loanwords in Tamil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Arya ... s_in_Tamil

The third link is interesting. It lists the loan words and for tadbhava how that is changed in Tamil. Some of the categories are what we have been discussing here. So when critiquing artists' pronunciation of sanskrit loan words in Tamil compositions, we need to be careful if they are tadbhava words before labeling them as mispronunciations. It applies to songs in other languages also as per their own tadbhavas .

I think that article can use some enhancement, it looks a bit lean.
----

This leads me to a question. Is pasu (cow) a tadbhava word in Tamil. When I hear it in the original sanskrit 'pashu' it is a bit jarring since mostly we all say it as 'pasu' as in 'pasu mADu'

kvchellappa
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by kvchellappa »

I thought most Tamizh people pronounced pasu as पशु. not as पसु. pasumAdu is typical pleonasm, but is in vogue.
It is interesting that both tadbhavam and tatsaman are Samskritham words. Why did not Tamizh pundits think of Tamizh words for borrowing into Tamizh? Why do we use 'borrow' (which means an obligation to return), and not adapt for tadbhavam and adopt for tatsamam?
Sorry to convert this to linguistic discussion.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

kvchellappa wrote:I thought most Tamizh people pronounced pasu as पशु. not as पसु.
Really? I have never heard it as 'pashu' until I heard some carnatic singres use it that way. I can speculate that may be in some brahmin households they may say it with a 'sha' but had it been frequent I would remember it well. If someone asks for 'pashumpAl' that will sound very odd.

VK RAMAN
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by VK RAMAN »

it is pronouced as pasu not pashu, in Tanjavur side

kvchellappa
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by kvchellappa »

I concede. Listening is not my strong point.

Meenalochani
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by Meenalochani »

Well, I am getting confused with pasu and pashu. To go deeper, is it pasupathi or pashupathi?

Thanks

rshankar
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by rshankar »

As I remember it, it is पशूनां पति, hence पशुपति and not पसुपति...right?

kvchellappa
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by kvchellappa »

पशु, not पसु, nor पषु.
The discussion was how it is pronounced. It seems that as with other such words, it is pronounced as पसु in Tamizh Nadu.

arasi
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by arasi »

Take me to the leader :) We need him, the linguist...

I have heard tamizh folks say pasu, paSu, but not pashu (as in Usha).

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arasi, without considering right or wrong, or linguistics, how will you say pasu in the context of 'give me a litre of cow's milk' to the milkman. Or when giving a talk in Tamil to a general Audience who only speaks Tamil.

rshankar
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by rshankar »

By the way, to take this back from cows and Siva to feet and refuge, here is the link for Smt. Aruna Sairam's thematic performance at the MMU - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNpIeTD0wro - billed as Tiruvadiye charanam...could be loosely translated as (your) divine feet are the only (tiruvaDiyE) feet (caraNam)... I guess the other (feet) are made of clay perhaps? :)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ravi, that is quite funny. I have probably seen such usage in many places. Until this discussion, that would have sounded perfectly ok to me, not knowing any better.

For whatever it is worth, I put Whatsapp voice message capability to good use. I asked a group of friends consisting of mostly Tamilians to record how they will say 'Cow' and 'Cow's milk' in tamil and post to the group. A snap poll! Overwhelming majority, like 95%, it is pasu (पसु). That group also consists of my friend who is the Sanskrit teacher and he reluctantly (my impression) agreed that 'pasu' is OK in tamil (and definitely not OK in Sanskrit.). His rule is, for tamil songs, you have a choice of pronouncing it as in Sanskrit or if you are going to Tamilize it, check the 'agarathi' (அகராதி) to make sure your way of saying it exists there. We are still discussing the few edge cases where the word does not figure in the 'agarathi' but in common usage (by a huge part of the population) it has been modified from the original Sanskrit. He is quite reluctant to be permissive enough to go with the populace because he says population can get a word wrong. Anyway, fortunately those seem to be only a few edge cases.

vgovindan
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by vgovindan »

A simple rule would do -

A Tamil kRti (even if there are tatbhava and tatsama words) sung by a Tamilian should be sung the way Tamil is spoken. Full stop.

For example 'tiruvaDi Saranam' (a Tamil kRti) should not be sung as tiruvaDi caranam by a Tamilian. In Tamil 'ச' as the beginning letter of a word is pronounced as 'sa'. If any Tamil kRti has both caranam and Saranam together, it is an absurd composition because the composer should have known that these words cannot be differentiated while pronouncing.

PS : I thought this topic is relevant only to non-Tamil singers, but as it turns out, there is more dispute about Tamil by Tamilians themselves. Tamil as taught in Tamil Nadu does not accept Sanskritised pronunciation of tatbhava and tatsama words.

VK RAMAN
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by VK RAMAN »

well said vgovindan. A tamilian includes sanskritized tamil brahmins and I wonder if they understand!

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

In Tamil 'ச' as the beginning letter of a word is pronounced as 'sa'
There are a good number of words beginning with 'sha'; a few for example :-
சக்கரம்
சங்கு
சட்டி
சடலம்
சதுரம்
சனிக் கிழமை ... ...
Last edited by Pratyaksham Bala on 01 Mar 2016, 22:02, edited 1 time in total.

kvchellappa
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by kvchellappa »

So, MS, DKP, etc. were wrong?

arunk
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by arunk »

:-) - some topics never die on rasikas.org - or they are like the true Phoenix - keep rising from the dead.

I think it is difficult to establish one rule (must pronounce Sanskrit words/imports as original) vs other (within context always morph as-per Tamil pronunciation rules), particularly in the context of compositions, as the usage of Sanskrit words and phrases, can be in varying degrees. Or in other words, very difficult to establish/discern a method to the madness. By the former, must you insist in mukham instead of mugam? By this token would you change sAmi ninnE in every varnam to svAmi ninne?.

On the other hand, some Tamil composers have explicitly taken advantage of this "variable pronunciation" to construct prAsa. One example is the rAmasAmi sivan's nATakurinji composition where in charaNam you have this beautiful line: ISanai, prakASanai, guha dAsanai, kAkkum nEsanai, pUsanai sei viSvAsanai, tillai vAsanai, nATarAsanai.

Should all those rhythmic line endings be sung as" sa"? Sure - for some people.

Instead should all imports be faithful to original? Maybe for some even though it could mean should it be pUjanai (which makes no sense in Sanskit, and probably less in Tamil :-)), and naTarAjanai (as DKP sings) - even though it is clear what the composer is going for?

Should it be a mixture (my personal preference) as I had indicated, where you go import when possible, but in others give prAsa precedence.

Yes, it is a mess, it is chaos, but that is what language evolution works - When they import/accept foreign words, languages will morph it as per local language rules. People introduce accents, pronunciation changes across territories. It happens everywhere - between English, French and Spanish.

Somehow we want to treat Sanskrit as more sacred (even when it has morphed over the years), and bring religion into it. To me it is not grounded in reality.

My more than 2 cents.

Arun

vgovindan
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by vgovindan »

kvchellappa wrote:So, MS, DKP, etc. were wrong?
You said it. Language is no handmaiden of any individual no matter how high he or she is. Well, the parampara is to be blame.

Every language evolves. But there is a stiff resistance in regard to Tamil particularly in accepting Sanskrit words because of the Aryan - Dravidian wall that is erected - kind courtesy of the British and colonial historians whose sole aim was to divide and rule, in the absence of which (the wall), the Dravidian parties will collapse like ninepins.

There we are frozen in time.

arasi
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by arasi »

Sorry, repeated post.
Deleted.
Last edited by arasi on 01 Mar 2016, 23:15, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by arasi »

Arun,
Am I glad you chimed in! Yes, I cannot see any hard and fast rule to every word we have been questioning and more.

In this connection, transliteration also has its challenges.
Let's take VK's use of the word agarathi. I would write it as agarAdi because a non-tamizhar is bound to read it as the hard tha (which exists a la sanskrit in their languages). The soft di then becomes thi when they read it! The same way, sha which I think indicates the sound to be the same as in bhAshA can confuse as well.

We do have d and D to signify the sounds. So why th? ettanai vEDikkai idu! We can do away with using 'th' thus.

Back to the pasu and pasumADu, there is ambiguity still. The sa Sa sounds apart, there can also be a subtle, in-between sound too? kAsu, vIsu, pEsu--how do we pronounce them?

arunk
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by arunk »

arasi - the problem is "ideally" (=> cannot be achieved) one wants something unambiguously represented in English BUT also phonetically (as in as per English) close enough :-). That is why you and I may see agarAdi, to know what it means, and some one else may even know rA means raa, but unless you know the transliteration rule very well (which in effect is the same as knowing a "new language script" which happens to use same letters as English), for many it would "appear" as agarADi.

Also, transliteration etc. is all simply informal and something which grew out of an organic need. And so you have umpteen variations and even if someone were to establish a standard, not all are compelled to follow. Echoing one great sarcastic sentence by an author "the beautiful thing about standards is that each can have their own :-)" - and of course I have my own ;-)

pasu etc. - again you are looking for one "authoritative, unambiguous" pronunciation. I dont think that exists in languages in practice - only thing close is wide consensus. For some words, you may have total or near-total. For this, I would say depending on people's upbringing as well as perhaps their location in TN, things can vary - IMHO it is somewhat misguided to denounce one as blasphemy - the only thing close is an outlier pronunciation which almost none of the native speakers would employ and dismiss as "foreign".

In this case, so about a "spectrum" where one end you have pasu, and other end pashu, and in the middle paSu :-) ? Although I would say pashu is perhaps in the outlier category, the sub-spectrum between pasu and paSu is all valid territory IMO!

Arun

rshankar
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by rshankar »

arunk wrote:On the other hand, some Tamil composers have explicitly taken advantage of this "variable pronunciation" to construct prAsa. One example is the rAmasAmi sivan's nATakurinji composition where in charaNam you have this beautiful line: ISanai, prakASanai, guha dAsanai, kAkkum nEsanai, pUsanai sei viSvAsanai, tillai vAsanai, nATarAsanai.
Something along these lines is also seen in teruvil vArAnO...

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun, that prAsa is a great example that illustrates the delightful flexibility language offers in the context of compositions and oratory while at the same time points to the difficulty in coming up with broad principles.

There is another angle to this. I have heard Ravi Kiran say to the effect that while there are exceptions, you can have reasonable confidence in learning the rules and grammar of CM. Presence of exceptions should not be the reason for throwing out some principles that can be broadly used. Applying that 'Ravi Kiran principle' to this pronunciation issue ( advanced apologies to drag him into this, he did not apply this to pronunciation issue, just to be sure ), outside these kinds of prAsa examples and others which are exceptions, can we at least use some rules as a reasonable thing for people to aspire to. The rule mentioned by my Sanskrit scholar friend is one such. But another person can come up with a different principle that covers most of the cases as practiced by Tamils. That is where acceptance of tadbhava is a reasonable principle to have in mind while also accepting your rule 'Close to wide consensus'. The rules should accommodate 'mugam'/'muham' while rejecting kObAl.
Tamil as taught in Tamil Nadu does not accept Sanskritised pronunciation of tatbhava and tatsama words.
VGV, I just want to clearly understand what you are saying here. While I understand why tatsama usage is not accepted in Tamil, what is the problem with tatbhava? Asking because by definition that is what Tamil accepts, isn't? It It is possible I do not understand what tadbhava actually means.

vgovindan
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by vgovindan »

RS,
Take for example Sanskrit word brahma - the tadbhava word in Tamil is 'பிரமன்' and is required to be pronounced as 'piraman' and not 'biraman' - kindly do not ask why we pronounce as 'biriyANi' for பிரியாணி - there is a lot of partiality in regard to acceptance of non-Tamil words other than Sanskrit - yes, there is a fixation. The tadbhava word for 'tatbhava' is 'தற்பவம்' which is to be pronounced as 'tarpavam' and not as 'tarbavam'; the tadbhava word for 'tatsama' is 'தற்சமம்' which is pronounced as 'tarcamam' and not tarsamam' - after 'ற்' - க, ச are prounounced as 'ka' and 'ca'.

In fact, Tamil pronunciation rules are very strict - compared to this, Sanskrit words can be constructed 'almost' in any manner and they are pronounced as such without variation - that is why it is accepted as medium for International transliterational usage.

I am convinced that Sanskrit and Tamil are sister languages. I would go one step ahead and say that Tamil is an (improved?) version of Sanskrit to make it suitable for a spoken language. That Sanskrit is not a spoken language of common man is proof enough that sounds like 'kha', 'gha' ..... and the like, are not pronounceable in routine conversational usage - unless one has practised it - a literary usage. That is what musicians are expected to do - practise.

Sorry, some may not like my comparisons - but that is my conviction.

rshankar
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by rshankar »

vgovindan wrote:proof enough that sounds like 'kha', 'gha' ..... and the like, are not pronounceable in routine conversational usage
Really???? Speakers of every other Indian language other than tamizh do this routinely, right? Are they not conversational?

arunk
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Re: Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Post by arunk »

the tadbhava word in Tamil is 'பிரமன்' and is required to be pronounced as 'piraman'
VGV sir can you explain why? I am presuming you are implying because it starts a word, and your other example of biriyAni is an outlier and that this "requirement" seems somehow reserved for sanskrit imports as a fixation.

If so, then that is not true. You can Sanskrit imports - bAvam (bhAva), bandu which retain the ba sound at the beginning (of course pAvam is also there as an import from pApa, and pandu is there for a ball). I agree that native Tamil words will not do so (and so if you hear any word that start with ga/ba you know it is an import)

If it is some other reason, then please explain. I am guessing I don't know the finer points between tatbhava and tatsama (??)

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 02 Mar 2016, 08:50, edited 1 time in total.

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