Why the best is not popular always !

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jodha
Posts: 146
Joined: 07 Aug 2009, 12:32

Why the best is not popular always !

Post by jodha »

My mind was full of qns.pertaining to the topic after we ( a small group of music lovers)had a discussion today evening about artists who didn't or couldn't make a mark as sought after artists in spite of their stuff and who lead a tough life economically.We were discussing about artists like A.Sundaresan & Vairamangalam.
One of my friends learned a bit from A.S.He was narrating how tired he used to come after taking classes in the morning and noon to his home in Mandaveli in the evening and how compassionately his mother fed him a small tiffin & coffee before commencing the class and how after the class his father used to drop him in his bullet to the bus terminus.They couldn't even afford a moped those days.I am really happy to see the contemporary musicians most of them flying in SUVs.But my mind is restless and keep raising the topic.

Rsachi
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Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by Rsachi »

Jodha
If this helps,
1. There are popular musicians, "great but unattractive music"- singers, and music teachers and musicologists.
2. I am convinced that the top stars have worked hard at presenting their music and presenting themselves with a keen sense of what furthers their popularity.
3. There is also such a thing as being at the right place at the right time.
4. Art is subjective. None can say popular musicians are bad or that true merit goes unnoticed. It is too complex a phenomenon to fit any algorithm.
5. There is also a thing called luck. We see it everywhere, in business, industry, science, music, any art, politics...
6. I have also seen musicians are very jealous and feel bad about others' success as much as they feel happy about their own success. Jealousy is like a spoonful of hing (asafoetida) to payasam.
Edison, voted The Inventor of the Millennium, and a very savvy entrepreneur, lost all his money and died poor. Why? "It happens."

So my philosophy is to respect musicians and do whatever I can. The rest is beyond me.

jodha
Posts: 146
Joined: 07 Aug 2009, 12:32

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by jodha »

Rsachi your points are agreeable.
On a second thought I recognize the standard of yore and now.Only the best could make it to the top.Once famous music director MSV commented when asked why he didn't introduce many new faces " its not that we denied chances to any deserving artist.We couldn't get many who will match the standard of those days unlike today where any one can croon."
To a larger extend this applies to CM also.Just imagine for e.g Sanjay as a contemporary of SSI,MMI,GNB,etc.Where he would have stood?Is it not a sad state of affairs now ?

hnbhagavan
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 22:06

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by hnbhagavan »

The Comparison of present stars with yesteryear stars are not fair.There was chance for each one to establish the music as one can say there was scope for projecting Carnatic Music and to streamline the system.
Carnatic Music will die if you say that today none of the stars can be contemporary of yesteryear stalwarts.
The present day stars have also worked hard and imbibed the music from doyens of music.True they were pioneers ,but no need to belittle present stars.
Even today the likes of Sumitra Vasudev will not be popular,but they will have select audience.

Rsachi
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Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by Rsachi »

HNB,
I do see Jodha's point, though.
Old timer stars vs current stars
1. Single guru/bani w long discipleship vs multiguru, learn from records approach
2. "organic" popularity growth mainly thru' word of mouth vs social media marketing & self promotion
3. Voice training and durability vs mike-driven vocal techniques that are less demanding
4. No cross genre performances then vs now
5. Instant exposure technology today eg "IndianRaga", "Carnatic Idol", etc. And several web streaming, self-publishing opportunities
6. Influence of electronic music & film music on everyone
7. Smaller attention span of listeners forcing musicians to try for instant impact = Maggi Noodles culture

So one cannot compare today's music scene OR stars with the scenario and big names of 1940s-1970s.

hnbhagavan
Posts: 1655
Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 22:06

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by hnbhagavan »

Exactly RSachi.It is like in any other field also.
Gurukula System is not in practice now.They are replaced by technology Dilution of Classical music.

kvchellappa
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Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by kvchellappa »

As an 'outsider' and having partly listened to the old ones also, I feel that it may not be quite true that the present crop of singers is inferior. It is difficult to compare the best. Even on Sanjay, one rasika went to the extent of saying that he gets from Sanjay what he used to get from 3, 4 singers on different aspects. He is a connoisseur. The point is not about Sanjay, but that opinions vary sharply. It is remarkable that despite a very limited audience, we have a great number of dedicated and truly classical singers. Lack of popularity did not deter eminent singers giving great music (MDR e.g.).
The lamentation that the next generation is superficial is as old as Plato. Kalidasa would not have had to despair ‘puranamityeva na sadhu sarvam’, if that mindset had not affected staging of Malavikagnimitra!
As for gurukulam, we have technology today that seems to give a better reach if one is keen. Varsha’s anecdote on the way to reach Carnegie hall is perhaps all that matters.

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by sureshvv »

In every field of human endeavor, successive generations have built on the achievements of their previous generation, excelled even more and moved the bar higher. I find it incongruous that it is not the same in CM, notwithstanding jodha's attachment to the past :)

munirao2001
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Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by munirao2001 »

To state that 'the best is not popular always' is is not well informed. Many artists with merits also attain popularity with the image and belief of the best. Patronage is always not purely based on the merits but based on perception and belief. It is perception and belief of endorsement by opinion maker (s); a large following; identity and relationship with successful; association enhancing one's own image. Patrons and rasikas discerning with judgmental and determination abilities as a result of their own deep knowledge are always a minuscule percentage of total population of rasikas. Artists with deep appreciation of quality and totally with integrity to aim, achieve and maintain tradition of excellence, not pandering to the popular appeal and compromising on values are also a minuscule percentage of total practitioners. They suffer ignominy during their life time and even after their life time, with few exceptions. It is also fact that most of them try to meet the expectations but due to their character, skills of presentation is insufficient to catch the imagination and appeal. Identity and image making that such artists are 'musicians musicians', 'scholarly', 'temperamental' etc creates artificial barriers and proves insurmountable over a period of time. Many such artists face insults when they sincerely try to get the patronage from the ignorant and arrogant event managers and patrons. Whenever rare opportunities are given to them, rasikas very poor attendance and support compel the rare gesture of event managers and patrons to be withdrawn. Rarest of them achieve recognition and popularity in their advanced years.
Ideal is meritocracy and practicality is popularity.

munirao2001

VK RAMAN
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Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by VK RAMAN »

Popularity comes from who knows whom, Miss/Mr junior of so and so, support of money behind, endorsement by popular celebrity, etc. Best some times out of sheer luck falls in the right hands of celebrities looking for talent. Taan paathi Deivam paathi!!!

kvchellappa
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Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by kvchellappa »

Would these apply to MS also?

kvchellappa
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Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by kvchellappa »

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Last edited by kvchellappa on 11 Sep 2016, 07:09, edited 1 time in total.

jodha
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Joined: 07 Aug 2009, 12:32

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by jodha »

Once in FB I saw a photo of MS along with another woman both in striped gown and pyjama and each holding a cigarette also.The god image on her was super imposed it seems and MS would have killed the real herself in bargain of that image.What a pity !

sureshvv
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Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by sureshvv »

the other woman was Bala Saraswathi, another legend in her own right!

shankarank
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Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by shankarank »

It is not enough for artistes to work hard. Rasikas also have to work hard. If a core nuclear critical mass of rasikas work hard and support - most of them will have a safety net. Popularity may not matter at that point as both the artiste and the rasikas will see some fulfillment. That is possible if the sense of the sacred at least is held through the generations.

varsha
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Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by varsha »

The woods would be sillent if only those birds sang . the ones which sang best

dhanurasi
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Joined: 23 Jun 2011, 16:02

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by dhanurasi »

Not a topic to discuss. How can you measure and declare one as the 'best' in 'art'?

But, I am curious to know which of the below listed factors made the top popular artists of today (AS, BJ, SS, TMK, SR, RG, AR)
VK RAMAN wrote:Popularity comes from who knows whom, Miss/Mr junior of so and so, support of money behind, endorsement by popular celebrity, etc. Best some times out of sheer luck falls in the right hands of celebrities looking for talent. Taan paathi Deivam paathi!!!

munirao2001
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Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by munirao2001 »

Dhanurasi,

Best is determined with bench mark of idealism. Ideals are two. First and rated higher is excellence (imagination, ideation and creativity, divine qualities) of lakshya and lakshana in unity delivering Ananda, bliss to the artist(s) and rasika(s), artist (s) partaking the bliss in one's own experience. Aim is to create urge and drive for the recall pleasure of the first experience. Second and rated lower is with conformance to the lakshana and delivery of manoranjakatvam, sense of mind in fulfillment of joy or pleasure to the rasikas, mostly impulsive and instantaneous gratification of innovation with the identity of style-a unique method and manner to secure appeal, acceptance, popularity and support.
Idealists strive for the first and discerning rasikas with ideal offer support for the success with no guarantee of success of wider appeal, popularity and success. They are very few. There are few who desire popularity and strive for the success. Majority of the artists aim and try to achieve a judicious balance of both the ideals with mixed results. Rasikas and patrons influences, support are the key result areas.

Art thrives only with the immense contribution of the impersonal idealists, in self denial. In the long term interest of art growth and development, patrons and rasikas must become discerning (with minimal knowledge of lakshya and lakshana), demand and support excellence, also in self denial (personal, likes and dislikes). We are in the present times, with many immensely talented artists with sadhana, both the ideals practicing the art and striving for wider appeal, with highest prospect of achieving global reach and appreciation for Karnataka Sangeetham. It will be made possible by rasikas and patrons becoming discerning and offering unstinting support with resources. It is time, NOW to ACT and CONTRIBUTE for resources of music education-universal, appreciation, research, archive, performing centers of excellence.

munirao2001

varsha
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Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by varsha »

Why the best is not popular always !
Maybe there is no such thing as "best"

This track is one of my favorites for many reasons over decades
The reason for remaining favorite has changed over the long period though.
https://archive.org/details/Yaman_201609

How does this relatively less-popular singer push himself to explore . Over decades of seeing people look the other way ?
It is just a matter of chance that the singer and listener share the same waves . What happens as the accoustic waves move from one shore to another ..... lies at the heart of all of our music.Being the best or most popular is "outside" the scheme of things.

Let us shed a tear or two for the likes of AS , or Vairamangalam . They deserve our love even after their times. But I am inclined to believe that they would have known that someone like jodha or others would react the way we are doing now.
Not low hanging fruits , these gems.Takes some climbing .

munirao2001
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Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by munirao2001 »

Varsha Sir,

Performing artists highest fulfillment is truly in performing opportunities and listeners enjoying their performances/offerings. Recognition and rewards do motivate and support practice to achieve higher states. Any actions after their time is of no value to them. Rasikas and patrons realizing and extending their support to the living artists of great merits is the right action and humble tribute to the departed great maestros.

munirao2001

Rsachi
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Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by Rsachi »

I enjoyed that Yaman, Varsha! Thank you.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by varsha »

That was Sripad Hegde singing .Cheers

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by vasanthakokilam »

varsha wrote: Not low hanging fruits , these gems.Takes some climbing .
That is pretty much it.

ganesh_mourthy
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Art should not descend to the common, it is the common who should try to be artful .

I am wording it wrong, like an ittu kadhai. I guess it is Oscar Wilde.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by arasi »

It's in a way, like someone asking after living in the vicinity of a fragrant little pArijAta tree for years and one day asking: 'where's that fragrance from?'.

CM was always around, but in a sense, as rare as a pArijAta (pavaZha malli). In that, it is exotic (not exclusive), and yet, it has not been far beyond our reach.

It has been as familiar as festivals in our culture. Singing or listening to kritis is not as exclusive, really. Not even knowing their being classical, folks have sung them, have listened to them in kathA kAlashEpa-s.

Yet, all the detailed analyzing of it, the theory part of it and the cultivated listeners in the audience scare some away, I guess--just as it does, with classical western music...

munirao2001
Posts: 1334
Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35

Re: Why the best is not popular always !

Post by munirao2001 »

Arasi,
cultivated listeners in the audience scare some away, I guess
Truth of fact is majority of the rasikas for KM are senior citizens and are committed. Youth are attracted to the highly popular performers. How cultivated listeners in the audience scare some away?
Why can't senior citizens located in Chennai and Bengaluru,become more and more discerning? Why they do not avail opportunities of Lec-Demos and Work shops on music appreciation and other thematic sessions being regularly conducted spiritedly by eminent Vidwans/Vidushees and events held by dedicated foundations. Rasikas located in other centers can avail web/youtube/DVD for music education. Meritocracy will prevail and rule only if rasikas demand excellence and this will be possible only if majority of rasikas are discerning. Truth is discerning rasikas motivate other with knowledge but not repulse general rasikas.

munirao2001

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