Carnatic Music Composition class?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

You would rather grant me that than admitting that Thyagaraja may have spent the previous night working on a particular kriti?

MaheshS
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by MaheshS »

melam72 wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 19:28 Thyagaraja's compositions were composed out of spontaneous outflows of bhakti, which were later refined. Compositions like O Rangasayee were 'refined' by the addition of multiple sangathis, whereas krithis like those in the Utsava Samprayam and the Divyanama Sankeerthanams weren't, and remain in their original, bhajana paddathi form.

I suggest you listen to Sowmya's lec dem about Dr S Ramanathan's A Day With Thyagaraja in the Music Academy TAG archives before coming up with such ditzy and facile utterances
Just to be clear - adding sangathis in your opinion made the krithis well structured and well thought off? But the ones without "refining" like Divyanama / Utsava Sampradaya krithis are not well structured because of lack of sangathis or because they are still in the original format?

So, Pancharathna krithis, Kovur Panchrathams, Prahlada Bhaktha Vijayam, Nauka Charitham etc were all just spontaneous outpourings and bajanai type of compositons till it was refined by his diciples and it became "concert" worthy? Did they also change the words so it all fit in with grammatical rules to sound polished?

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 19:42 Just to be clear - adding sangathis in your opinion made the krithis well structured and well thought off? But the ones without "refining" like Divyanama / Utsava Sampradaya krithis are not well structured because of lack of sangathis or because they are still in the original format?
Adding the sangathis, as I said, made the krithis more refined. There is a difference between bhajanai pattu and cacheri pattu, and modifications were made to adjust this. In some cases, this meant changing a ragam.
MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 19:42 So, Pancharathna krithis, Kovur Panchrathams, Prahlada Bhaktha Vijayam, Nauka Charitham etc were all just spontaneous outpourings and bajanai type of compositons till it was refined by his diciples and it became "concert" worthy? Did they also change the words so it all fit in with grammatical rules to sound polished?
Endaro Mahanubavulu was spontaneous, if you bothered to read about Thyagaraja's compositions before coming here and pointlessly jabbering.

And, yes, they were 'refined' and 'polished' before they were concert ready. The concept of a 'pancharatnam' was invented by Muthiah Bhagavathar, and these 4 were selected since they were convenient for goshti ganam. Semmangudi admitted that there were changes to the structure and melody of the pancharatnam in an interview, though we will never know the exactitude of the changes.

;)

MaheshS
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by MaheshS »

melam72 wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 19:48 Adding the sangathis, as I said, made the krithis more refined. There is a difference between bhajanai pattu and cacheri pattu, and modifications were made to adjust this. In some cases, this meant changing a ragam.
Let me come from a different angle, before you go, refine, refined, more refined, most refined, utmost refined. How were they unstructured before the introduction of sangathis? Were there any gramattical or lyrical mistakes that were corrected? If so, can you give me examples? Would singing a krithi without sangathis make it an unstructured or not well thought of one?

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 20:05 Let me come from a different angle, before you go, refine, refined, more refined, most refined, utmost refined. How were they unstructured before the introduction of sangathis? Were there any gramattical or lyrical mistakes that were corrected? If so, can you give me examples? Would singing a krithi without sangathis make it an unstructured or not well thought of one?
As far as I know, they were melodically unstructured, and they were not in the proper krithi format; viz. they were like bhajans or sankeerthanams. Sangathis were one of the additions to structure it. Since I don't know Telugu or Samskrtam, I am unqualified to comment about the lyrical and prosodical aspects. Perhaps bhakthim dehi or RaviSri could do so.

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

Wrong on multiple counts. Thyagaraja kritis are treasure house of sangathis & that is not a coincidence or "later additions or refinements". This may be his most important contribution to the musical genre. The kriti format also probaby took firm root due to his compisitions.

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 04 Apr 2017, 11:37 The kriti format also probaby took firm root due to his compisitions.
According to Madurai GS Mani, the krithi format was an innovation of the Sirkazhi Moovar - Marimutha Pillai, Muthuthandavar, and Arunachala Kavirayar.

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 04 Apr 2017, 11:37 Thyagaraja kritis are treasure house of sangathis
You must understand the situation of these compositions.

They were composed as devotional pans, or perhaps for bhajana sankeerthanams. Sangathis are irrelevant to those circumstances, and they were added by his musician-disciples.

This is exactly why a class is needed, to learn how to compose for what situation.

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

melam72 wrote: 04 Apr 2017, 14:57
sureshvv wrote: 04 Apr 2017, 11:37 The kriti format also probaby took firm root due to his compisitions.
According to Madurai GS Mani, the krithi format was an innovation of the Sirkazhi Moovar - Marimutha Pillai, Muthuthandavar, and Arunachala Kavirayar.

Thyagaraja often gets credited with "inventing" the kriti format both because of his prolific & expert creations. Many musicologists try to go back in time even further & establish that the kriti format predates Thyagaraja's time.

So to claim that Thyagaraja's compositions were not in proper kriti format & were later refined flies in the face of all that is well known & established, not to mention "holy".

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

melam72 wrote: 04 Apr 2017, 14:59
sureshvv wrote: 04 Apr 2017, 11:37 Thyagaraja kritis are treasure house of sangathis
You must understand the situation of these compositions.

They were composed as devotional pans, or perhaps for bhajana sankeerthanams. Sangathis are irrelevant to those circumstances, and they were added by his musician-disciples.

This is exactly why a class is needed, to learn how to compose for what situation.
Seems to me that you have misunderstood. Sangathis are not irrelevant to the bhakthi rasa - they actually magnify it & help transfer it to the audience when handled as intended.

Now go to the corner, face the wall & sing "Samanam evaru" slowly in ten different ways :)

shankar vaidyanathan
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by shankar vaidyanathan »

As Malcolm Gladwell highlights in "Outliers", the 10,000 hours to master anything along with appropriate circumstances and opportunities play a major role in success. Western compositions are notes based and so could be taught and learnt to an extent. Playing micro/grace unwritten notes is self learnt. Carnatic or Hindustani music compositions aren't written beyond the basic Sahityam and some associated notation of Sangathis. Kalapramanam, Layam and such aspects can't be coached beyond rudimentary fundamentals. The grammar and structure could be taught but years of practice makes perfection. Also the level of maturity (seasoning? பக்குவம்?) comes with age and life experience. Personally I believe that what we think of spontaneous compositions took years in the making along with divine gift. I would think that Swara based compositions without Sahityam would be a starting point for students towards composition. The instrumentalists among us may be able to share more.

sankark
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sankark »

sureshvv wrote: 04 Apr 2017, 22:35
melam72 wrote: 04 Apr 2017, 14:57
sureshvv wrote: 04 Apr 2017, 11:37 The kriti format also probaby took firm root due to his compisitions.
According to Madurai GS Mani, the krithi format was an innovation of the Sirkazhi Moovar - Marimutha Pillai, Muthuthandavar, and Arunachala Kavirayar.

Thyagaraja often gets credited with "inventing" the kriti format both because of his prolific & expert creations. Many musicologists try to go back in time even further & establish that the kriti format predates Thyagaraja's time.

So to claim that Thyagaraja's compositions were not in proper kriti format & were later refined flies in the face of all that is well known & established, not to mention "holy".
"firm root due to his compositions" --> there is a folklore that one of the moovars (muthu thAndavar?) composed one kriti/keerthanam a day using the first word heard that day at the temple (gOpuram) in thillai. So that wealth is perhaps gone forever.

"often gets credited" --> doesn't certainly establish that he "invented" (perhaps rediscovered, revitalized, polished etc.). His prolific & expert creations are different from the 'inventing' aspect.

shankarank
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by shankarank »

To a question that how are we to know for sure Sri Tyagaraja svAmi ( or actually nAda brahmAnanda as pointed out by G.S Mani) lived in the period that we assume he lived - here is RKSK's account in a private conversation:

SSI - when he was very young - asked an 80 or 90 year old Woman who was circum-ambulating the samAdi, whether she had seen tyAgaraja - to which she answered : Yes there was such a person and I have seen him. It seems we have some land records as well in addition to this witness! :D

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

sankark wrote: 09 Apr 2017, 17:57
"often gets credited" --> doesn't certainly establish that he "invented" (perhaps rediscovered, revitalized, polished etc.). His prolific & expert creations are different from the 'inventing' aspect.
Agreed. The answer as to who "invented" it though is altogether deeply subjective and each musicologist has their favorite individual answer and justification. This case may be similar to many of Edison's "inventions".

shankarank
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by shankarank »

melam72 wrote: 04 Apr 2017, 14:57
sureshvv wrote: 04 Apr 2017, 11:37 The kriti format also probaby took firm root due to his compisitions.
According to Madurai GS Mani, the krithi format was an innovation of the Sirkazhi Moovar - Marimutha Pillai, Muthuthandavar, and Arunachala Kavirayar.
In this respect - also pertinent to note that dvitiyAkshara prAsa (edhugai) is also of southern origin!

shankarank
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by shankarank »

The idea of doing niraval - could we say came from the pallavi rendering tradition? In some cases to get a meaningful line, two lines of the kriti had to be sung together - but musicians simply sang just the one line - like vAnimATalaku in mA jAnaki.

Another example would be sAdhu janOpEda of akshaya linga vibhO where some chest beating from front rows were employed to make a musician sing it as navanIta hridaya vihAta... :lol:

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