Carnatic Music Composition class?

[arasi]

Since the edit facility pencil is missing at the moment, I'm posting again to add this.

Very happy to see that Madurai Sundar is giving an all Ambujam Krishna concert at Cleveland this year:) He grew up knowing her and her music from a very young age, his aunt and guru Ananthalakshmi Sadagopan (who has sung more of AK's songs than anyone). What's more, Sundar's other guru, TNS has tuned many songs of hers.

[mohan]

The artistry of the compositons of mudduswAmi dIksitar suggest that they were not spontaneously composed. There must have been quite a lot of planning involved to introduce aspects such as rAga mudra, svarAkSara-s, not to mention all the detailed historical information about the temples and deities he has composed about.

Here is a newspaper article about Rajkumar Bharati and his approach to composing (for dance) http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/m ... 608176.ece

[melam72]

The artistry of the compositons of mudduswAmi dIksitar suggest that they were not spontaneously composed. There must have been quite a lot of planning involved to introduce aspects such as rAga mudra, svarAkSara-s, not to mention all the detailed historical information about the temples and deities he has composed about.

That is an interesting point. But, in my opinion, I feel that, there do exist elements of spontaneity in his compositions, especially in compositions like Ananda Natana Prakasham, and Nandagopala (Yamunakalyani)

[arasi]

"Bursting into song" doesn't happen all the time I guess, even to the most inspired poet. All the same, even though not instantaneous, most worthy compositions are outcomes of inspiration (also working quietly in them over a period of time...life time?). In CM of course, also can be read as bhakti in block letters. Seen sometimes the most reserved individuals behave spontaneously by calling out the deity's name emotionally in the temple?

The imagery I have of MD's creative process is of a vast space of deep water, and lovely ripples are created by a pebble cast in it. T's? Mostly of a torrential flow of pathos. Both have merits, beauty and they appeal to our emotions. T also had his many philosophical moments collected in tranquil verses besides the flowing of his emotional appeal to Rama.

MD's soundararAjam ASrayE, cEtaSri bAlakrishNam, tyAgarAjam bhajarE, ranga pura vihArA, mAmava paTTAbhirAmA and others can be added to his compositions which also have great emotional appeal.

Someone teaching grammar all his life can exclaim like a raving poet on seeing the Taj Mahal in moon light, and then the one who teaches romantic poetry fall silent, even look serious upon viewing it.

The problem with MD is that his scholarship stands out most in rasikAs' view?

Take the interpreters. Murugadas will easily qualify for the romantic, spontaneous sort. We love to listen to his pouring out. Then, there is, let's say a KVN. Seemingly almost opposite, but we experience spontaneity and pulsing emotion in his singing too

Hope I make sense...

[VK RAMAN]

How are these Gems different from Kaviyarasu Vairamuthu who attracts everyone's attention in his extempore and song writing

[arasi]

VKR,
Yes, how are they different? Experts will chime in. Meanwhile, all I can say is--CM has been intertwined with bhakti for so long that illustrious modern film music composers may not be able to make it to the list in a long while. Even Subramanya Bharathi hasn't done it yet!

Talking of film composers/tune smiths, early day ones brought to us some gems in the traditional way, songs about gods and godesses (remember those sung in temple scenes?) which will qualify for serious CM.

[thenpaanan]

And Arasi madam, if I was a performer (I am not, you are most welcome ), I will include at least one song from contemporary composers like yourself and Ambujam Krishna!

Hear! Hear! I sang a composition of hers "kandA vEl murugA" in sAvEri at my concert (copied from the album by gAyatri girIsh). I probably did not do justice to the song but it is truly a wonderful wonderful creation. You would think a rAgam like sAvEri would have been wrung out ("puzhinju-fied" as they say) by now, but arasi found a way of presenting the rAgam that I had not encountered before. I wanted to give her this kudos earlier but it kept slipping my mind and this post reminded me.

Thanks, Arasi, for this and other wonderful compositions.

-T

[vasanthakokilam]

The beginning of '"kandA vEl murugA" itself is quite unique and wonderful

[rshankar]

Thanks, Arasi, for this and other wonderful compositions.

Hear, hear!

[arasi]

inRu en kATTil mazhai peygiRadE?
(Wow! It turned out to be my lucky day!).

All of you--thanks!

tenpaanan,
I am touched...You took the trouble to learn it and sing it too in your concert! Could we hear it? Gayathri Girish would be happy too. She chose the song with enthusiasm, I recall.

Rajesh,
If you happen to read this--I'm not stuck with inRu varuvAnO for eternity

[thenpaanan]

tenpaanan,
I am touched...You took the trouble to learn it and sing it too in your concert! Could we hear it? Gayathri Girish would be happy too. She chose the song with enthusiasm, I recall.

It should be me thanking you. After all what would a singer do without good compositions to sing?

As for the concert where I sang this song, it was at a local temple and the open-air mic that I had used to record had a sense of taste and decided to preferentially record the kOvil arcakar.

The best I can do is to record it separately and post. I was thinking of writing a line by line analysis and talk about how the lyrics and melody go so well together. As for Gayathri Girish's recording, I found it difficult to sing it at the pace that she has sung it in that album -- I had to slow it down a couple of notches to make the words clearly audible. It would be travesty to mumble the word -- Gayathri of course has managed both speed and clarity very well.

-T

[arasi]

You are kind...pallAyirak kaNakkAna pADalgaL irukka (when there are many thousands of songs to pick from)!

Please let us listen to your singing. Yes, Gayathri G is a whiz. The song came at a slower pace to me, years ago.

[MaheshS]

And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.

I don't know what to say. Rarely were they spontaneous, the idea was, krithi was not. All the krithis are very structued and very very well thought off. Go on, I *dare* you, give us some proof of how they were not structured and not well thought off.

You have just made all your posts invalid with the above observation, shows how much you know. Back to LKG for you ...

[melam72]

And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.

I *dare* you, give us some proof of how they were not structured and not well thought off.

O Rangasayee, for example, was composed spontaneously.

He didn't sit for an hour to think of it, the krithi just came.

There, dare accepted.

[MaheshS]

And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.

I *dare* you, give us some proof of how they were not structured and not well thought off.

O Rangasayee, for example, was composed spontaneously.

He didn't sit for an hour to think of it, the krithi just came.

There, dare accepted.

So what is wrong with it? Where is the "not structured / not thought off" in O Rangasayi? Go on, I dare you. Proof please. Also, what makes you so sure, he didn't polish the krithi later? Proof? All we know is he was *inspired* by the occasion, and the rest is all speculation.

[MaheshS]

And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.

I don't know what to say. Rarely were they spontaneous, the idea was, krithi was not. All the krithis are very structued and very very well thought off. Go on, I *dare* you, give us some proof of how they were not structured and not well thought off.

You have just made all your posts invalid with the above observation, shows how much you know. Back to LKG for you ...

Just to make sure, read what I posted Rarely were they spontaneous, the idea was, krithi was not. .

[melam72]

the rest is all speculation.

And there you have contradicted yourself.

I suggest you save your breath and go back to LKG before making such pointless, pestilent remarks

[melam72]

Rarely were they spontaneous, the idea was, krithi was not. .

If you had any knowledge of Thyagaraja's corpus of works, you would know that the works were originally composed in the veedhi bhajanai style before, and they were polished by the disciples of Thyagaraja.

But then, you don't, so no point blaming you for your jnanasooniyam-isms

[MaheshS]

the rest is all speculation.

And there you have contradicted yourself.

I suggest you save your breath and go back to LKG before making such pointless, pestilent remarks

You said they were not well structed or thought off - proof please. I dared you ON that, no on the spontaneity, clear? See the word I used? "Rarely". Stop picking and choosing words. Put up or shut up on why T's compositons where not well strcutured or well thought off.

[MaheshS]

Rarely were they spontaneous, the idea was, krithi was not. .

If you had any knowledge of Thyagaraja's corpus of works, you would know that the works were originally composed in the veedhi bhajanai style before, and they were polished by the disciples of Thyagaraja.

But then, you don't, so no point blaming you for your jnanasooniyam-isms

VAGGEYAKARA CARITRAM from SSP - Subarama Dikshitar. There is a little bit about the Saint over there. Go read that. Saint T was a schloar par excellence, don't insult his intelligence with the lack of yours.

[melam72]

You said they were not well structed or thought off - proof please. I dared you ON that, no on the spontaneity, clear? See the word I used? "Rarely". Stop picking and choosing words. Put up or shut up on why T's compositons where not well strcutured or well thought off.

All of his Utsava Sampradaya krithis, for example, were composed in rustic, folk tunes, with down-to-earth, easily understandable lyrics, so they can be easily repeated by the people on the Thirumanjana Veedhi.

This was not my point. It was Dr Sowmya's in her lec dem on S Ramanathan's A Day With Thyagaraja. IN fact, as she pointed out, it were these, simple, spontaneous compositions, which were the norm rather than the exception.

Dr Sowmya has a PhD in music. And I am sure you have a different PhD - Permanent Head Damage, perhaps from listening to the likes of the Cowherdess and the Loudmouth.

Go on, say something

[sureshvv]

In general there is a certain approach to any creative process even like writing a well conceived forum post. It takes several passes & fine tuning to get things just right. These myths of spontaneous outpourings are largely made by fantasy seekers & devotees who have never indulged in a creative pursuit first hand.

[MaheshS]

You said they were not well structed or thought off - proof please. I dared you ON that, no on the spontaneity, clear? See the word I used? "Rarely". Stop picking and choosing words. Put up or shut up on why T's compositons where not well strcutured or well thought off.

All of his Utsava Sampradaya krithis, for example, were composed in rustic, folk tunes, with down-to-earth, easily understandable lyrics, so they can be easily repeated by the people on the Thirumanjana Veedhi.

This was not my point. It was Dr Sowmya's in her lec dem on S Ramanathan's A Day With Thyagaraja. IN fact, as she pointed out, it were these, simple, spontaneous compositions, which were the norm rather than the exception.

Dr Sowmya has a PhD in music. And I am sure you have a different PhD - Permanent Head Damage, perhaps from listening to the likes of the Cowherdess and the Loudmouth.

Go on, say something

So where is the proof of not well structured not well thought off? I dared you, you like politicians ignored the question, asked yourself a different question to which you answered, by quoting Dr Sowmya. Where did she come from? What's she got to do with your initial "And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.".

[melam72]

you like politicians ignored the question,

As an amateur political analyst, I can't help but blush at your comparison!

asked yourself a different question to which you answered, by quoting Dr Sowmya.

It was an answer to your question 'why T's compositons where not well strcutured or well thought off.'

Where did she come from?

Like all humans, and possibly you, from her mother's womb!

What's she got to do with your initial "And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.".

Thyagaraja's compositions were composed out of spontaneous outflows of bhakti, which were later refined. Compositions like O Rangasayee were 'refined' by the addition of multiple sangathis, whereas krithis like those in the Utsava Samprayam and the Divyanama Sankeerthanams weren't, and remain in their original, bhajana paddathi form.

I suggest you listen to Sowmya's lec dem about Dr S Ramanathan's A Day With Thyagaraja in the Music Academy TAG archives before coming up with such ditzy and facile utterances

[melam72]

It takes several passes & fine tuning to get things just right

My point was that it wasn't Thyagaraja who created the compositions we know today; rather, they were tampered and 'enriched' by the addition of multiple sangathis.

If they weren't 'enriched', then we would still consider them akin to (god forbid) abhangs

[sureshvv]

You would rather grant me that than admitting that Thyagaraja may have spent the previous night working on a particular kriti?

[MaheshS]

Thyagaraja's compositions were composed out of spontaneous outflows of bhakti, which were later refined. Compositions like O Rangasayee were 'refined' by the addition of multiple sangathis, whereas krithis like those in the Utsava Samprayam and the Divyanama Sankeerthanams weren't, and remain in their original, bhajana paddathi form.

I suggest you listen to Sowmya's lec dem about Dr S Ramanathan's A Day With Thyagaraja in the Music Academy TAG archives before coming up with such ditzy and facile utterances

Just to be clear - adding sangathis in your opinion made the krithis well structured and well thought off? But the ones without "refining" like Divyanama / Utsava Sampradaya krithis are not well structured because of lack of sangathis or because they are still in the original format?

So, Pancharathna krithis, Kovur Panchrathams, Prahlada Bhaktha Vijayam, Nauka Charitham etc were all just spontaneous outpourings and bajanai type of compositons till it was refined by his diciples and it became "concert" worthy? Did they also change the words so it all fit in with grammatical rules to sound polished?

[melam72]

Just to be clear - adding sangathis in your opinion made the krithis well structured and well thought off? But the ones without "refining" like Divyanama / Utsava Sampradaya krithis are not well structured because of lack of sangathis or because they are still in the original format?

Adding the sangathis, as I said, made the krithis more refined. There is a difference between bhajanai pattu and cacheri pattu, and modifications were made to adjust this. In some cases, this meant changing a ragam.

So, Pancharathna krithis, Kovur Panchrathams, Prahlada Bhaktha Vijayam, Nauka Charitham etc were all just spontaneous outpourings and bajanai type of compositons till it was refined by his diciples and it became "concert" worthy? Did they also change the words so it all fit in with grammatical rules to sound polished?

Endaro Mahanubavulu was spontaneous, if you bothered to read about Thyagaraja's compositions before coming here and pointlessly jabbering.

And, yes, they were 'refined' and 'polished' before they were concert ready. The concept of a 'pancharatnam' was invented by Muthiah Bhagavathar, and these 4 were selected since they were convenient for goshti ganam. Semmangudi admitted that there were changes to the structure and melody of the pancharatnam in an interview, though we will never know the exactitude of the changes.

[MaheshS]

Adding the sangathis, as I said, made the krithis more refined. There is a difference between bhajanai pattu and cacheri pattu, and modifications were made to adjust this. In some cases, this meant changing a ragam.

Let me come from a different angle, before you go, refine, refined, more refined, most refined, utmost refined. How were they unstructured before the introduction of sangathis? Were there any gramattical or lyrical mistakes that were corrected? If so, can you give me examples? Would singing a krithi without sangathis make it an unstructured or not well thought of one?

[melam72]

Let me come from a different angle, before you go, refine, refined, more refined, most refined, utmost refined. How were they unstructured before the introduction of sangathis? Were there any gramattical or lyrical mistakes that were corrected? If so, can you give me examples? Would singing a krithi without sangathis make it an unstructured or not well thought of one?

As far as I know, they were melodically unstructured, and they were not in the proper krithi format; viz. they were like bhajans or sankeerthanams. Sangathis were one of the additions to structure it. Since I don't know Telugu or Samskrtam, I am unqualified to comment about the lyrical and prosodical aspects. Perhaps bhakthim dehi or RaviSri could do so.

[sureshvv]

Wrong on multiple counts. Thyagaraja kritis are treasure house of sangathis & that is not a coincidence or "later additions or refinements". This may be his most important contribution to the musical genre. The kriti format also probaby took firm root due to his compisitions.

[melam72]

The kriti format also probaby took firm root due to his compisitions.

According to Madurai GS Mani, the krithi format was an innovation of the Sirkazhi Moovar - Marimutha Pillai, Muthuthandavar, and Arunachala Kavirayar.

[melam72]

Thyagaraja kritis are treasure house of sangathis

You must understand the situation of these compositions.

They were composed as devotional pans, or perhaps for bhajana sankeerthanams. Sangathis are irrelevant to those circumstances, and they were added by his musician-disciples.

This is exactly why a class is needed, to learn how to compose for what situation.

[sureshvv]

The kriti format also probaby took firm root due to his compisitions.

According to Madurai GS Mani, the krithi format was an innovation of the Sirkazhi Moovar - Marimutha Pillai, Muthuthandavar, and Arunachala Kavirayar.

Thyagaraja often gets credited with "inventing" the kriti format both because of his prolific & expert creations. Many musicologists try to go back in time even further & establish that the kriti format predates Thyagaraja's time.

So to claim that Thyagaraja's compositions were not in proper kriti format & were later refined flies in the face of all that is well known & established, not to mention "holy".

[sureshvv]

Thyagaraja kritis are treasure house of sangathis

You must understand the situation of these compositions.

They were composed as devotional pans, or perhaps for bhajana sankeerthanams. Sangathis are irrelevant to those circumstances, and they were added by his musician-disciples.

This is exactly why a class is needed, to learn how to compose for what situation.

Seems to me that you have misunderstood. Sangathis are not irrelevant to the bhakthi rasa - they actually magnify it & help transfer it to the audience when handled as intended.

Now go to the corner, face the wall & sing "Samanam evaru" slowly in ten different ways

[shankar vaidyanathan]

As Malcolm Gladwell highlights in "Outliers", the 10,000 hours to master anything along with appropriate circumstances and opportunities play a major role in success. Western compositions are notes based and so could be taught and learnt to an extent. Playing micro/grace unwritten notes is self learnt. Carnatic or Hindustani music compositions aren't written beyond the basic Sahityam and some associated notation of Sangathis. Kalapramanam, Layam and such aspects can't be coached beyond rudimentary fundamentals. The grammar and structure could be taught but years of practice makes perfection. Also the level of maturity (seasoning? பக்குவம்?) comes with age and life experience. Personally I believe that what we think of spontaneous compositions took years in the making along with divine gift. I would think that Swara based compositions without Sahityam would be a starting point for students towards composition. The instrumentalists among us may be able to share more.

[sankark]

The kriti format also probaby took firm root due to his compisitions.

According to Madurai GS Mani, the krithi format was an innovation of the Sirkazhi Moovar - Marimutha Pillai, Muthuthandavar, and Arunachala Kavirayar.

Thyagaraja often gets credited with "inventing" the kriti format both because of his prolific & expert creations. Many musicologists try to go back in time even further & establish that the kriti format predates Thyagaraja's time.

So to claim that Thyagaraja's compositions were not in proper kriti format & were later refined flies in the face of all that is well known & established, not to mention "holy".

"firm root due to his compositions" --> there is a folklore that one of the moovars (muthu thAndavar?) composed one kriti/keerthanam a day using the first word heard that day at the temple (gOpuram) in thillai. So that wealth is perhaps gone forever.

"often gets credited" --> doesn't certainly establish that he "invented" (perhaps rediscovered, revitalized, polished etc.). His prolific & expert creations are different from the 'inventing' aspect.

[shankarank]

To a question that how are we to know for sure Sri Tyagaraja svAmi ( or actually nAda brahmAnanda as pointed out by G.S Mani) lived in the period that we assume he lived - here is RKSK's account in a private conversation:

SSI - when he was very young - asked an 80 or 90 year old Woman who was circum-ambulating the samAdi, whether she had seen tyAgaraja - to which she answered : Yes there was such a person and I have seen him. It seems we have some land records as well in addition to this witness!

[sureshvv]

"often gets credited" --> doesn't certainly establish that he "invented" (perhaps rediscovered, revitalized, polished etc.). His prolific & expert creations are different from the 'inventing' aspect.

Agreed. The answer as to who "invented" it though is altogether deeply subjective and each musicologist has their favorite individual answer and justification. This case may be similar to many of Edison's "inventions".

[shankarank]

The kriti format also probaby took firm root due to his compisitions.

According to Madurai GS Mani, the krithi format was an innovation of the Sirkazhi Moovar - Marimutha Pillai, Muthuthandavar, and Arunachala Kavirayar.

In this respect - also pertinent to note that dvitiyAkshara prAsa (edhugai) is also of southern origin!

[shankarank]

The idea of doing niraval - could we say came from the pallavi rendering tradition? In some cases to get a meaningful line, two lines of the kriti had to be sung together - but musicians simply sang just the one line - like vAnimATalaku in mA jAnaki.

Another example would be sAdhu janOpEda of akshaya linga vibhO where some chest beating from front rows were employed to make a musician sing it as navanIta hridaya vihAta...