Carnatic Music Composition class?

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melam72
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Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

This is a question that has been bugging me recently.

Living in Singapore, the progeny of many of my friends go to American schools, where they offer Western music composition classes. These children mostly take it because it is an AP course (which means that colleges will like them even more, if that's saying much), but the question has arisen: can we ever teach Karnatak music composition to children? This raises a maelstrom of questions, like:

1. How can you be taught to compose?
2. How will you combine both sahityam composition and varnamettu creation?
3. What types of compositions will be taught?
4. If these compositions are of reasonable quality, then will it be arrogance to perform them in concerts?
4a. Is the role of the Carnatic musician to present compositions, or to merely parrot the compositions of 'old masters'?

Inputs from arasi madam, AMSji, and others welcome!

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

The prevailing wisdom is that in general for a composition to be "worthy" of concert performance, it has to outlast the composer.

arasi
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by arasi »

How very true! If not wisdom, it is tradition? There are reasons for that: performers don't reach out for new compositions that easily. They have thousands of oldies to go after--those they have heard many times and have loved are lining up in their minds anyway. They also feel that the audience don't go for them either. Is it true?

As for the kids, they are having fun. They get together, create and make a video of it which is seen/heard by many of us! This also might inspire a few among them to continue as composers. Most composers of yore were not prodigies, we realize.

As time goes by, the present belief might change too, who knows? The demise of a composer may not be the signal for musicians to take up his/her compositions, with our enterprising youngsters!

I am guessing you may hear them singing my songs (or not!) after my time--at least in the centenary year. Remember me then ;)

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 22 Mar 2017, 23:16 The prevailing wisdom is that in general for a composition to be "worthy" of concert performance, it has to outlast the composer.
And yet, with the exception of Amrutha Venkatesh and Prince Rama Varma and a few others, no one sings Balamurali compositions with the frequency that one sings a Lalgudi composition, though the former is more varied and imaginative compared to the latter...

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

arasi wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 02:33 How very true! If not wisdom, it is tradition? There are reasons for that: performers don't reach out for new compositions that easily. They have thousands of oldies to go after--those they have heard many times and have loved are lining up in their minds anyway. They also feel that the audience don't go for them either. Is it true?

As for the kids, they are having fun. They get together, create and make a video of it which is seen/heard by many of us! This also might inspire a few among them to continue as composers. Most composers of yore were not prodigies, we realize.

As time goes by, the present belief might change too, who knows? The demise of a composer may not be the signal for musicians to take up his/her compositions, with our enterprising youngsters!

I am guessing you may hear them singing my songs (or not!) after my time--at least in the centenary year. Remember me then ;)
Which is exactly why the likes of Bombay Jayashree don't impress me; they cater to their fans, but not the rasikas, amongst other things.

And why must this only limited to kids? Why can't adults like Ramakrishnamurthy or Bharat Sundar or Ashwath Narayanan get together and do the same thing? Why should this be limited to only IndianRaga productions?

And Arasi madam, if I was a performer (I am not, you are most welcome :lol: :lol: ), I will include at least one song from contemporary composers like yourself and Ambujam Krishna!

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

My basic point is that manodharmam shouldn't be just limited to swarams and alapanai and neraval and rtps, but must also encompass creating compositions - be it a jathiswaram or a varnam, or heck, even a new ragam, and that our youth must be taught this.

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 09:42 And yet, with the exception of Amrutha Venkatesh and Prince Rama Varma and a few others,
no one sings Balamurali compositions with the frequency that one sings a Lalgudi composition, though the former is more varied and imaginative compared to the latter...
Not entirely true. There are many other exceptions, including Mahathi, TMK, etc. who sing his compositions. I do admit that Lalgudi has a much bigger sphere of influence probably because his compositions are denser.

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 09:50 My basic point is that manodharmam shouldn't be just limited to swarams and alapanai and neraval and rtps, but must also encompass creating compositions - be it a jathiswaram or a varnam, or heck, even a new ragam, and that our youth must be taught this.
I think you are misunderstanding the word "manodharmam". This means extempore, i.e. improvisation in the moment on stage. No one creates compositions or ragas like that. Those require careful construction.

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

arasi wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 02:33 How very true! If not wisdom, it is tradition? There are reasons for that: performers don't reach out for new compositions that easily. They have thousands of oldies to go after--those they have heard many times and have loved are lining up in their minds anyway. They also feel that the audience don't go for them either. Is it true?
And then there are musicians that make it their mission to bring forward "good" compositions and help popularize them by singing them in concerts and teaching them to their students. This is one of the evolutionary paths for a musician.

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 10:25
melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 09:50 My basic point is that manodharmam shouldn't be just limited to swarams and alapanai and neraval and rtps, but must also encompass creating compositions - be it a jathiswaram or a varnam, or heck, even a new ragam, and that our youth must be taught this.
I think you are misunderstanding the word "manodharmam". This means extempore, i.e. improvisation in the moment on stage. No one creates compositions or ragas like that. Those require careful construction.
I beg to differ.

Manodharmam refers to creative endeavours by musicians; and there are very few musicians who truly exhibit manodharmam.

Compositions need careful construction, but where will the tunes come from?

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 10:22
melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 09:42 And yet, with the exception of Amrutha Venkatesh and Prince Rama Varma and a few others,
no one sings Balamurali compositions with the frequency that one sings a Lalgudi composition, though the former is more varied and imaginative compared to the latter...
Not entirely true. There are many other exceptions, including Mahathi, TMK, etc. who sing his compositions. I do admit that Lalgudi has a much bigger sphere of influence probably because his compositions are denser.
Nearly every musician knows a Lalgudi composition. Can you say the same about BMK?

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

sureshvv wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 10:25
I think you are misunderstanding the word "manodharmam". This means extempore, i.e. improvisation in the moment on stage. No one creates compositions or ragas like that. Those require careful construction.
melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 12:39 I beg to differ.
I was offering a definition not an opinion. You won't hear someone saying, "Thyagaraja showed great manodharmam" even if he was very creative, unless this someone heard his outstanding alapana, neraval or swaraprashthara,

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 14:07
sureshvv wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 10:25
I think you are misunderstanding the word "manodharmam". This means extempore, i.e. improvisation in the moment on stage. No one creates compositions or ragas like that. Those require careful construction.
melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 12:39 I beg to differ.
I was offering a definition not an opinion. You won't hear someone saying, "Thyagaraja showed great manodharmam" even if he was very creative, unless this someone heard his outstanding alapana, neraval or swaraprashthara,
That is because your definition was inherently faulty. And we call Thyagaraja's compositions 'imaginative', which has the same connotations as Manodharmam.

And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.

VK RAMAN
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by VK RAMAN »

Spontaneous overflow of feelings towards Raama must have influenzed when structure does come into writing

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 15:03
And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.
If all good compositions are spontaneous, why are you arguing for a class?

rajeshnat
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by rajeshnat »

Kodi asainthadum Katru vandada
Katru vandadum Kodi asainthathum
I will got with Sureshvv vs melam72 in favour of sureshvv.

rajeshnat
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by rajeshnat »

melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 12:40 Nearly every musician knows a Lalgudi composition. Can you say the same about BMK?
The quality of disciples of Lalgudi are far far better then the quality of BMK disciples . Period . I have not seen say a sanjay , suryaprakash , tmkrishna taking a LGJ composition .

Fundamentally Lalgudi picked up all ragas where there is no thillana . A Yamunakalyani , a madhuvanti , a pahadi etc etc. The thillanas find the way and among the thillanas the earlier era of Poochi , Patnam had few and the earliest era of T, MD ,SS did not compose thilllana at all.
IF you take compositions other than thillana of lalgudi apart from varnam of Charukesi of LAlgudi other things are not even coming out . Few performers like BJ, Abhishek , saketharaman sing compositions

With respect to BMK , I would humbly say his thillana is far far more tough than lalgudi . . Hence more learning and at times it even intersects his own ragas. Other than special days where BMK name is there they just skip it . BMK compositions like that hamsadhwani was popularized by TRS , hyd brothers etc.

Lalgudi crafted it simpler way and created legacy of more performance. BMK crafted it bit difficult and his legacy is much more difficult to accomplish. Last year kutcheri season I heard Pantula , Suryaprakash singing lovely compositions of BMK but unfortunately that was a homage to BMK. We have to see how this trajectory goes from here on.

rajeshnat
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by rajeshnat »

melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 09:47 And Arasi madam, if I was a performer (I am not, you are most welcome :lol: :lol: ), I will include at least one song from contemporary composers like yourself and Ambujam Krishna!
melam72,
If you are a performer unless you have connections for most of the time you will get strangulated with 2 hour or less concert . YOu have to cross T,MD , PSivan(top 3 spread) and then few like PD etc to satisfy language spread too and you will run out of time for Arasi .

For ambujam krishna she has compiled all as one book and atleast a year it gets spread, there is documentation for Ambujam Krishna . For arasi it is quite tricky. Neela, Suryaprakash, GG and Sumitra Nitin have picked 4 to 5 cds worth of compositions . Usually when one present musician sings a composition and releases a CD , other musicians will not sing it in that era . They have to buy that CD and take it up and there are logical constrainsts.

Many years back I went to Arasi house in Bangalore and Arasi husband krishnan Sir showed few papers of arasi compositions . YOu can take up atleast those papers and pass it musician friends after digitizing it .

Arasi,
YOu will be as famous like sadananda tandavam/jagathjanani of achutadasar/ghanam krishna iyer fame . you are heading in that direction of achutadasar with your flagship krithi inru varuvAno in kalyanavasantham, I wish you finish somewhere in the league of Tanjore Sankara Iyer to Gopalakrishna bharathi.

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 20:01
melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 15:03
And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.
If all good compositions are spontaneous, why are you arguing for a class?
Because compositions still need to be analysed and dissected before you understand how to compose! Yes, the compositions were spontaneous, but it was not like the composers were complete jnana sooniyams!

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

rajeshnat wrote: 24 Mar 2017, 02:56
melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 09:47 And Arasi madam, if I was a performer (I am not, you are most welcome :lol: :lol: ), I will include at least one song from contemporary composers like yourself and Ambujam Krishna!
melam72,
If you are a performer unless you have connections for most of the time you will get strangulated with 2 hour or less concert . YOu have to cross T,MD , PSivan(top 3 spread) and then few like PD etc to satisfy language spread too and you will run out of time for Arasi .

For ambujam krishna she has compiled all as one book and atleast a year it gets spread, there is documentation for Ambujam Krishna . For arasi it is quite tricky. Neela, Suryaprakash, GG and Sumitra Nitin have picked 4 to 5 cds worth of compositions . Usually when one present musician sings a composition and releases a CD , other musicians will not sing it in that era . They have to buy that CD and take it up and there are logical constrainsts.

Many years back I went to Arasi house in Bangalore and Arasi husband krishnan Sir showed few papers of arasi compositions . YOu can take up atleast those papers and pass it musician friends after digitizing it .

Arasi,
YOu will be as famous like sadananda tandavam/jagathjanani of achutadasar/ghanam krishna iyer fame . you are heading in that direction of achutadasar with your flagship krithi inru varuvAno in kalyanavasantham, I wish you finish somewhere in the league of Tanjore Sankara Iyer to Gopalakrishna bharathi.
You don't need to include T or MD or Sivan or PD in every concert. For every one of these composers, there are composers like Spencer Venugopal and Arasi andNerur Srinivasachari who are of the same calibre (arguably greater sometimes, methinks), who deserve the same (if not more) exposure, and perhaps the unlocked potential in the likes of Vijay Siva and Ranjani-Gayatri to compose needs to be unlocked, not stifled under the cloud of Trinitarian compositions

VK RAMAN
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by VK RAMAN »

It is interesting how the topic took a 360

shankarank
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by shankarank »

Not really. If people who are already composing are not being sung - what would be the utility of kids composing it - especially in something close to Carnatic idiom? It might just become digested into Pop music if by chance some popster gets inspired to pick it up and that would feed the motivation for composing in future - not Carnatic!

rshankar
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by rshankar »

VK RAMAN wrote: 24 Mar 2017, 18:31 It is interesting how the topic took a 360
360 or 180?

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

shankarank wrote: 24 Mar 2017, 20:24 Not really. If people who are already composing are not being sung - what would be the utility of kids composing it - especially in something close to Carnatic idiom? It might just become digested into Pop music if by chance some popster gets inspired to pick it up and that would feed the motivation for composing in future - not Carnatic!
The point is that for any art form it needs to have an ever-expanding corpus of work. Else, it will become stale, like Hindustani music.

arasi
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by arasi »

When it comes to concerts, compositions are valuable (or not so). It all depends on 1: how good the songs are 2: how they are sung (here, vidwat matters not so much),It is how a mere child or a seasoned singer can feel the pulse of the bhAvA in a song.

It's when that does not happen that some listeners get bored with sAhityA, some even preferring instrumental to vocal, I feel.

Rajesh,
Thanks for your kind words. You have been my champion from day one. Yes, those songs which have not been published may not be heard at all, in my life time or later.

As for Ambujam Krishna (this, her centenary year)--you mention one volume. There are more than just one! All of them tuned by stalwarts! Wish children to professional musicians include her songs in their concerts with gustothis year, to start with ...

Yes, I happen to be a composer and a big mouth--so all these thoughts to share. Ashok Madhav, also one among us is quiet and modest. Wish he would add his thoughts too.

Ramaraj who is no more with us, would have shared more with us, had he been alive :(

Another composer, Dr. Srikanth--how we miss his brilliance even though we haven't heard from him all these years :(

arasi
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by arasi »

Since the edit facility pencil is missing at the moment, I'm posting again to add this.

Very happy to see that Madurai Sundar is giving an all Ambujam Krishna concert at Cleveland this year:) He grew up knowing her and her music from a very young age, his aunt and guru Ananthalakshmi Sadagopan (who has sung more of AK's songs than anyone). What's more, Sundar's other guru, TNS has tuned many songs of hers.

mohan
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by mohan »

The artistry of the compositons of mudduswAmi dIksitar suggest that they were not spontaneously composed. There must have been quite a lot of planning involved to introduce aspects such as rAga mudra, svarAkSara-s, not to mention all the detailed historical information about the temples and deities he has composed about.

Here is a newspaper article about Rajkumar Bharati and his approach to composing (for dance) http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/m ... 608176.ece

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

mohan wrote: 27 Mar 2017, 09:01 The artistry of the compositons of mudduswAmi dIksitar suggest that they were not spontaneously composed. There must have been quite a lot of planning involved to introduce aspects such as rAga mudra, svarAkSara-s, not to mention all the detailed historical information about the temples and deities he has composed about.
That is an interesting point. But, in my opinion, I feel that, there do exist elements of spontaneity in his compositions, especially in compositions like Ananda Natana Prakasham, and Nandagopala (Yamunakalyani)

arasi
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by arasi »

"Bursting into song" doesn't happen all the time I guess, even to the most inspired poet. All the same, even though not instantaneous, most worthy compositions are outcomes of inspiration (also working quietly in them over a period of time...life time?). In CM of course, also can be read as bhakti in block letters. Seen sometimes the most reserved individuals behave spontaneously by calling out the deity's name emotionally in the temple?

The imagery I have of MD's creative process is of a vast space of deep water, and lovely ripples are created by a pebble cast in it. T's? Mostly of a torrential flow of pathos. Both have merits, beauty and they appeal to our emotions. T also had his many philosophical moments collected in tranquil verses besides the flowing of his emotional appeal to Rama.

MD's soundararAjam ASrayE, cEtaSri bAlakrishNam, tyAgarAjam bhajarE, ranga pura vihArA, mAmava paTTAbhirAmA and others can be added to his compositions which also have great emotional appeal.

Someone teaching grammar all his life can exclaim like a raving poet on seeing the Taj Mahal in moon light, and then the one who teaches romantic poetry fall silent, even look serious upon viewing it.

The problem with MD is that his scholarship stands out most in rasikAs' view?

Take the interpreters. Murugadas will easily qualify for the romantic, spontaneous sort. We love to listen to his pouring out. Then, there is, let's say a KVN. Seemingly almost opposite, but we experience spontaneity and pulsing emotion in his singing too :)

Hope I make sense...

VK RAMAN
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by VK RAMAN »

How are these Gems different from Kaviyarasu Vairamuthu who attracts everyone's attention in his extempore and song writing

arasi
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by arasi »

VKR,
Yes, how are they different? Experts will chime in. Meanwhile, all I can say is--CM has been intertwined with bhakti for so long that illustrious modern film music composers may not be able to make it to the list in a long while. Even Subramanya Bharathi hasn't done it yet!

Talking of film composers/tune smiths, early day ones brought to us some gems in the traditional way, songs about gods and godesses (remember those sung in temple scenes?) which will qualify for serious CM.

thenpaanan
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by thenpaanan »

melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 09:47
And Arasi madam, if I was a performer (I am not, you are most welcome :lol: :lol: ), I will include at least one song from contemporary composers like yourself and Ambujam Krishna!
Hear! Hear! I sang a composition of hers "kandA vEl murugA" in sAvEri at my concert (copied from the album by gAyatri girIsh). I probably did not do justice to the song but it is truly a wonderful wonderful creation. You would think a rAgam like sAvEri would have been wrung out ("puzhinju-fied" as they say) by now, but arasi found a way of presenting the rAgam that I had not encountered before. I wanted to give her this kudos earlier but it kept slipping my mind and this post reminded me.

Thanks, Arasi, for this and other wonderful compositions.

-T

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

The beginning of '"kandA vEl murugA" itself is quite unique and wonderful

rshankar
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by rshankar »

thenpaanan wrote: 30 Mar 2017, 21:40Thanks, Arasi, for this and other wonderful compositions.
Hear, hear!

arasi
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by arasi »

inRu en kATTil mazhai peygiRadE? :o :)
(Wow! It turned out to be my lucky day!).

All of you--thanks!

tenpaanan,
I am touched...You took the trouble to learn it and sing it too in your concert! Could we hear it? Gayathri Girish would be happy too. She chose the song with enthusiasm, I recall.

Rajesh,
If you happen to read this--I'm not stuck with inRu varuvAnO for eternity :lol:

thenpaanan
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by thenpaanan »

arasi wrote: 31 Mar 2017, 08:56
tenpaanan,
I am touched...You took the trouble to learn it and sing it too in your concert! Could we hear it? Gayathri Girish would be happy too. She chose the song with enthusiasm, I recall.
It should be me thanking you. After all what would a singer do without good compositions to sing?

As for the concert where I sang this song, it was at a local temple and the open-air mic that I had used to record had a sense of taste and decided to preferentially record the kOvil arcakar. :D

The best I can do is to record it separately and post. I was thinking of writing a line by line analysis and talk about how the lyrics and melody go so well together. As for Gayathri Girish's recording, I found it difficult to sing it at the pace that she has sung it in that album -- I had to slow it down a couple of notches to make the words clearly audible. It would be travesty to mumble the word -- Gayathri of course has managed both speed and clarity very well.

-T

arasi
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by arasi »

You are kind...pallAyirak kaNakkAna pADalgaL irukka (when there are many thousands of songs to pick from)!

Please let us listen to your singing. Yes, Gayathri G is a whiz. The song came at a slower pace to me, years ago.

MaheshS
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by MaheshS »

melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 15:03 And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.
I don't know what to say. Rarely were they spontaneous, the idea was, krithi was not. All the krithis are very structued and very very well thought off. Go on, I *dare* you, give us some proof of how they were not structured and not well thought off.

You have just made all your posts invalid with the above observation, shows how much you know. Back to LKG for you ...

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:04
melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 15:03 And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.
I *dare* you, give us some proof of how they were not structured and not well thought off.
O Rangasayee, for example, was composed spontaneously.

He didn't sit for an hour to think of it, the krithi just came.

There, dare accepted.

MaheshS
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by MaheshS »

melam72 wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:21
MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:04
melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 15:03 And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.
I *dare* you, give us some proof of how they were not structured and not well thought off.
O Rangasayee, for example, was composed spontaneously.

He didn't sit for an hour to think of it, the krithi just came.

There, dare accepted.
So what is wrong with it? Where is the "not structured / not thought off" in O Rangasayi? Go on, I dare you. Proof please. Also, what makes you so sure, he didn't polish the krithi later? Proof? All we know is he was *inspired* by the occasion, and the rest is all speculation.
Last edited by MaheshS on 03 Apr 2017, 18:29, edited 1 time in total.

MaheshS
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by MaheshS »

MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:04
melam72 wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 15:03 And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.
I don't know what to say. Rarely were they spontaneous, the idea was, krithi was not. All the krithis are very structued and very very well thought off. Go on, I *dare* you, give us some proof of how they were not structured and not well thought off.

You have just made all your posts invalid with the above observation, shows how much you know. Back to LKG for you ...
Just to make sure, read what I posted Rarely were they spontaneous, the idea was, krithi was not. .

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:27 the rest is all speculation.
And there you have contradicted yourself.

I suggest you save your breath and go back to LKG before making such pointless, pestilent remarks :roll:

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:28 Rarely were they spontaneous, the idea was, krithi was not. .
If you had any knowledge of Thyagaraja's corpus of works, you would know that the works were originally composed in the veedhi bhajanai style before, and they were polished by the disciples of Thyagaraja.

But then, you don't, so no point blaming you for your jnanasooniyam-isms ;)

MaheshS
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by MaheshS »

melam72 wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:46
MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:27 the rest is all speculation.
And there you have contradicted yourself.

I suggest you save your breath and go back to LKG before making such pointless, pestilent remarks :roll:
You said they were not well structed or thought off - proof please. I dared you ON that, no on the spontaneity, clear? See the word I used? "Rarely". Stop picking and choosing words. Put up or shut up on why T's compositons where not well strcutured or well thought off.

MaheshS
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by MaheshS »

melam72 wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:49
MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:28 Rarely were they spontaneous, the idea was, krithi was not. .
If you had any knowledge of Thyagaraja's corpus of works, you would know that the works were originally composed in the veedhi bhajanai style before, and they were polished by the disciples of Thyagaraja.

But then, you don't, so no point blaming you for your jnanasooniyam-isms ;)
VAGGEYAKARA CARITRAM from SSP - Subarama Dikshitar. There is a little bit about the Saint over there. Go read that. Saint T was a schloar par excellence, don't insult his intelligence with the lack of yours.

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:51 You said they were not well structed or thought off - proof please. I dared you ON that, no on the spontaneity, clear? See the word I used? "Rarely". Stop picking and choosing words. Put up or shut up on why T's compositons where not well strcutured or well thought off.
All of his Utsava Sampradaya krithis, for example, were composed in rustic, folk tunes, with down-to-earth, easily understandable lyrics, so they can be easily repeated by the people on the Thirumanjana Veedhi.

This was not my point. It was Dr Sowmya's in her lec dem on S Ramanathan's A Day With Thyagaraja. IN fact, as she pointed out, it were these, simple, spontaneous compositions, which were the norm rather than the exception.

Dr Sowmya has a PhD in music. And I am sure you have a different PhD - Permanent Head Damage, perhaps from listening to the likes of the Cowherdess and the Loudmouth.

Go on, say something :lol:

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by sureshvv »

In general there is a certain approach to any creative process even like writing a well conceived forum post. It takes several passes & fine tuning to get things just right. These myths of spontaneous outpourings are largely made by fantasy seekers & devotees who have never indulged in a creative pursuit first hand.

MaheshS
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by MaheshS »

melam72 wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:59
MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 18:51 You said they were not well structed or thought off - proof please. I dared you ON that, no on the spontaneity, clear? See the word I used? "Rarely". Stop picking and choosing words. Put up or shut up on why T's compositons where not well strcutured or well thought off.
All of his Utsava Sampradaya krithis, for example, were composed in rustic, folk tunes, with down-to-earth, easily understandable lyrics, so they can be easily repeated by the people on the Thirumanjana Veedhi.

This was not my point. It was Dr Sowmya's in her lec dem on S Ramanathan's A Day With Thyagaraja. IN fact, as she pointed out, it were these, simple, spontaneous compositions, which were the norm rather than the exception.

Dr Sowmya has a PhD in music. And I am sure you have a different PhD - Permanent Head Damage, perhaps from listening to the likes of the Cowherdess and the Loudmouth.

Go on, say something :lol:
So where is the proof of not well structured not well thought off? I dared you, you like politicians ignored the question, asked yourself a different question to which you answered, by quoting Dr Sowmya. Where did she come from? What's she got to do with your initial "And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.".

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 19:09 you like politicians ignored the question,
As an amateur political analyst, I can't help but blush at your comparison!
MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 19:09 asked yourself a different question to which you answered, by quoting Dr Sowmya.
It was an answer to your question 'why T's compositons where not well strcutured or well thought off.'
MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 19:09 Where did she come from?
Like all humans, and possibly you, from her mother's womb!
MaheshS wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 19:09 What's she got to do with your initial "And, for the record, Thyagaraja's compositions (like all good compositions) were spontaneous, and not well thought of and structured.".
Thyagaraja's compositions were composed out of spontaneous outflows of bhakti, which were later refined. Compositions like O Rangasayee were 'refined' by the addition of multiple sangathis, whereas krithis like those in the Utsava Samprayam and the Divyanama Sankeerthanams weren't, and remain in their original, bhajana paddathi form.

I suggest you listen to Sowmya's lec dem about Dr S Ramanathan's A Day With Thyagaraja in the Music Academy TAG archives before coming up with such ditzy and facile utterances

melam72
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Re: Carnatic Music Composition class?

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 03 Apr 2017, 19:01 It takes several passes & fine tuning to get things just right
My point was that it wasn't Thyagaraja who created the compositions we know today; rather, they were tampered and 'enriched' by the addition of multiple sangathis.

If they weren't 'enriched', then we would still consider them akin to (god forbid) abhangs

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