Music and copyright

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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Nick H
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by Nick H »

The rest of the world has systems and organisations in place that collect royalties from performance and distribute to composers. This has been going on for decades, or maybe longer.

India throws its hands up in horror at this new development of the composer owning the composition and being paid for its use. Absurd!

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Music and copyright

Post by Ranganayaki »

KVC, interesting article, thank you.

When my son participated in a music "festival" for students of classical music usually held in several rooms of a high school, he was obligated to use a purchased sheet of music. The organizers and judges would not flout copyright expectations, nor would his teacher by giving him her own copy (the letter and the spirit). This is followed for even the most elementary levels.

This move (of Ilayaraja's) can only work if composers band together to do this on behalf of the whole composing industry. Otherwise, all Ilayaraja would succeed in doing is to sabotage his own popularity. But then wouldn't they have to commit to stopping plagiarism?!!

shankarank
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 24 Mar 2017, 12:57 The rest of the world has systems and organisations in place that collect royalties from performance and distribute to composers. This has been going on for decades, or maybe longer.

India throws its hands up in horror at this new development of the composer owning the composition and being paid for its use. Absurd!
Indians have not internalized the term commercial - it is still a dirty term! In spite of the fact that their method of life has moved beyond the old village eco systems which provided for people of various sorts! Irony is Ilayaraja's stand will find favor in villages - for other reasons!

I have heard the then Charsur owner, complain how the snake song CD ( commercial version) got used in so many dance arangETrams and never even acknowledged!

Artistes ( Composers/ Singers) need to be paid based on the size and scale of the community they serve. ARI as per the article clearly had not adjusted to the realities of urban existence and took his initial "A" too seriously! Given that it is commercially issued Album - the composer must have been compensated!

shankarank
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by shankarank »

Besides there was also the perception that Sivan had hugely benefited from the tunes of Tyagaraja, at least during his early days as a composer
No values attached to the discovery of Chandam, words that fit the Chandam, tAla setting - how difficult it is in spoken contemporary language etc.

if that was so easy - Subramhanya Bharati should be reigning supreme - front and center of concerts!

It is all about tunes - after all it is all melody that is music. Utter ignorance prevails!

Nick H
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by Nick H »

shankarank wrote: 25 Mar 2017, 02:51Indians have not internalized the term commercial
I think it is very much internalised. There is nothing more commercial than the determination to get something for free! :lol:

VK RAMAN
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by VK RAMAN »

A lot copyright issues are wrongfully applied but why kolaveri when rightful exercise of copyright is exercised

shankarank
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 25 Mar 2017, 03:40 I think it is very much internalised. There is nothing more commercial than the determination to get something for free! :lol:
:lol: - Sorry the like buttons have dissappeared - so I had to waste some electrons ;) !

Sachi_R
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by Sachi_R »

Any economic system that showers money on popular stars and does not take care of people behind the scenes, be it music composers, dialogue writers, cameramen etc. will have a more populist, cheaper, recycling mentality. I suppose Carnatic music is no different. But unlike in CM, movies need fresh faces, fresh voices, and always new songs to be sung around the mulberry bush. If Ilayaraja, who is reigning at the top and has made many voices so popular, should have a cause for complaint, it simply shows the inequities.

shankarank
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by shankarank »

Ilayaraja seems to have come from a legal standpoint where the copyright laws seem to favor composers over singers. Once the movie has been released - revenue realized and music director compensated - that over weightage does not make sense after that. Musical copyright after a certain period of time should be more equitable. The singer also has done his/her work to train the voice that he/she has and that must be respected.

Here SPB is the one making the money and likely the unfairness in copyright laws is clouding the discussion and he is being defensive!

Around the time of movie release and immediate aftermath - obviously the maximum risk taker must be favored - the producers - as I suppose the music director does get compensated for that purpose separately.

In traditional art forms - it becomes even more important - we have to respect the sAdhakam of the vidvan/vidushi. Some amount of traditional perspective must also inform the popular art regulation in India. We don't have to take it the same way as the Mozart, the genius and rest as music technique practicers!

At the same time - music community should make an effort to ensure descendants of composers are taken care well - within the realm of social responsibility!

I think Papanasam Sivan's descendants are being treated well by the community - going by the support provided to Sri Ashok Ramani to conduct competitions and disseminate his Grand Father's works. He may have more expectation - at least I see that the community has done some thing!

rajeshnat
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by rajeshnat »

shankarank wrote: 25 Mar 2017, 21:16 I think Papanasam Sivan's descendants are being treated well by the community - going by the support provided to Sri Ashok Ramani to conduct competitions and disseminate his Grand Father's works. He may have more expectation - at least I see that the community has done some thing!
Shankarank
I dont know if you knew this angle - Papanasam Sivan and Janaki Ramachandran (wife of MGR) are related, that info is in public domain. My speculation is there was enough boot up financial start for the family of descendents of papanasam sivan considering sivan did not have much money when he passed away. I am not saying their famiily later did not work enough they have also toiled.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 26 Mar 2017, 00:00, edited 1 time in total.

rajeshnat
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by rajeshnat »

shankarank wrote: 25 Mar 2017, 21:16 Ilayaraja seems to have come from a legal standpoint where the copyright laws seem to favor composers over singers.
.....
Away from Carnatic Music,
i am told the great and my near god illayaraja is heading in the direction of taking recordings out of youtube and trying his best to monetize soon with the mobile app that he has created . Unfortunately in film world with respect to music ,without illayaraja songs being taken no one is interested in hearing those even if it is another near god SPB singing that too in live concerts .

ON a side side note way back in 1987 to 1989 when the telugu movie Geethanjali was released (tamil remake was idhayathai thrirudAthE),SPB sang for the telugu version for a brief time there was a small rift between illayaraja vs spb (nee great a naan great a), in the process for a few movies for few years SPB did not sing the thamizh ramake of Idayathai thirudAdhE and that was sung by ManO . Also movies like enga ooru paatukaran and nayagan in 1987 also had semi rift and illayaraja gave few songs to Mano taking spb out .Mano is not a good singer at all when compared to spb, but if the tunesmith is illayaraja even i can sing film songs right :lol: . SPB and Illayaraja patched quickly you can see the divine melody - composition intersect of spb-illayaraja in films like marupadiyum (1993).

I have written few writeups tracing the actual golden years of illayaraja it starts with me from his third movie (uravAdum nenjam) in 1976(annakili is just a ok movie to me) and ends in veera (in 1994) in other places other than rasikas.org .

This lovely song of spb-illayaraja in madhukowns or sumanesaranjani epitomizes the melody-composition intersect.
nalam vazha ennnalum en vazhuthugal - madhukowns (sumanesaranjani) - Illarraja or spb or vaali or balumahendra (copyright now goes to illayaraja)- film marupadiyum 1993
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjRs0KjYzbo

There is this line in that song "manithargal sila neram niram marAlam mannangalum avar gunangulam thadam maralAm " which is very applicable to isaignani illayaraja.

This copyright rift is remnants of tiff that the two greatest illayaraja and spb had and is continuing now as the money of live music concerts are not shared well. The rift of Illayaraja and vairamuthu also started with the same time in 1980's and they had their last song with kadalOra kavithaigal in 80's. But no big deal without vairamuthu illayaraja had vaali and others.

I wish my near god illayaraja sat with his harmonium and composed for new films in the league of late 70's to late 80's and also make spb sing few or all of those (of course spb voice is bit strained now) etc from the years 2000 onwards .He could have enforced all this rules for his newer songs and newer films and not for bygones. :) . But one can say with the phrase"manithargal sila neram niram marAlam mannangalum avar gunangulam thadam maralAm "

shankarank
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by shankarank »

Rajesh, there was quite an interest and ticket sales to hear SPB live with the Tamizh community here - as much I could sense it. Without sensing that a good money could be flowing - don't think Ilayaraja will take the trouble to send a notice.

As regards PS's family relation into Janaki MGR - I also read somewhere that the MGR estate is still locked up in legal battles. Irrespective of that I think music community should support Ashok Ramani - as they stand to benefit as well!

varsha
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by varsha »

Success in writing (and music) – Unlike painting - means that your work becomes Cheaper , purchasable by anybody.
Edward Hoagland
words in italics-mine

Sachi_R
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Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: Music and copyright

Post by Sachi_R »

Good article:
What the spat between Ilaiyaraaja and SPB is really about?: http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/m ... 665382.ece

melam72
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by melam72 »

I completely endorse the copyright - but it should go to the descendants of the composers, like Thyagaraja and Muthuswami Dikshitar and Syama Sastri.

At least then people will come up with something original to present in concerts. Plus, it will lift families in penury like that of Syama Sastri out of penury.

Although, an unintended side effect will be that 'Breathless- by Ashok Ramani' type concerts will become the norm. Who knows, they'll even give him the Sangeetha Kolanidhi (misspelling intentional).

I would like to emphasise that the idea sounds appealing. Only the idea.

Nick H
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by Nick H »

melam72 wrote:I completely endorse the copyright - but it should go to the descendants of the composers, like Thyagaraja and Muthuswami Dikshitar and Syama Sastri.
Copyright expires.

I don't know about music, but with pictures, when I was in that business, it was fifty years after the death of the artist. So don't expect great grandchildren and great great grandchildren and great-to-the-power-of-n grandchildren to benefit from happening to have had an illustrious composer as an ancestor.

Imagine the queues at the reincarnation check-in desks if such a thing could be! But then, inherited fixed assets soon become diluted beyond useful worth anyway, as many a farmer could tell us.

melam72
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by melam72 »

At least, put the copyrights in a trust named after Thyagaraja or Muthuswami Dikshitar or Syama Sastri, and appoint musicians as trustees to conduct festivals in the name of the composer. That way, rare compositions of the composer are brought out, the musicians get paid for the Trust festivals, and the composers are honoured.

RaviSri
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by RaviSri »

At least then people will come up with something original to present in concerts. Plus, it will lift families in penury like that of Syama Sastri out of penury.
Who said Shyama Sastri's family is in penury and who are the members of that family, what are their names and where do they live? As a regular visitor to SS's house in Thanjavur and as one who knows a few members of their family I know or heard of none in that family as being in penury.

VK RAMAN
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by VK RAMAN »

SPB had a lot of praises about ILayaraja in one of the Super Singer 5 Episodes two days ago.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

melam72 wrote: I completely endorse the copyright - but it should go to the descendants of the composers, like Thyagaraja and Muthuswami Dikshitar and Syama Sastri.
According to Indian Copyright Act, duration of copyright is "lifetime of the author + sixty years".

Nick H
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by Nick H »

melam72 wrote: 26 Mar 2017, 16:58 At least, put the copyrights in a trust named after Thyagaraja or Muthuswami Dikshitar or Syama Sastri ...
Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 26 Mar 2017, 20:13 ccording to Indian Copyright Act, duration of copyright is "lifetime of the author + sixty years".
Exactly. As was said again and again and again when the topic was Youtube takedowns justified by copyright

shankarank
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by shankarank »

I think there is enough built in Philanthropy in the setup with popular artiste revenues subsidizing other not so popular artistes. Aradhanas done all over the world affirm that commitment as well. I don't think given the way Trinity corpus has been handed down with Guru -Sishya parampara with embellishments , polishing, variations, and copying errors unintentionally creating new musical expressions - that we need to formalize revenue sharing through the legal system.

Trinity corpus - with fidelity to tradition will remain as long as sincerity is shown by various Sishya paramparas for maintaining the traditional version - and even missteps - blatant mistakes can be corrected if the concerned teachers/students reach out seek the aesthetically superior version - which may not need to be authentic! Authenticity itself is now dubious - it should be left to collective reflection , introspection, debate!

Not withstanding the fact that Trinity tunes have gone into harmony and cello - tradition can maintain itself and that is more a tribute to pay back the debt.

Trinity at this point should be treated as public domain - open source - open architecture!

Ongoing now - it is up to the new composers to set new standards of revenue sharing - which depends more on whether their composition has the capacity to yield any significant revenue.

In spite of all the ticket sales and all revenue into various organizations , CM still has not reached anywhere near a market system - to warrant a debate on copy right and revenue sharing. Some artistes who are rich now - are much due to other reasons than practicing core CM.

shankarank
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by shankarank »

What about Gurus charging a fee for the music lessons. Absolutely justified - if the student/parents have the capacity to pay. Fees may be relaxed / done away with if the student is close to the potential and shows inclination to plunge into a music career.

A poor village student who wants to stay with the Guru and learn - different story. That has happened even as recently as 80s/90s.

melam72
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by melam72 »

RaviSri wrote: 26 Mar 2017, 18:43
At least then people will come up with something original to present in concerts. Plus, it will lift families in penury like that of Syama Sastri out of penury.
Who said Shyama Sastri's family is in penury and who are the members of that family, what are their names and where do they live? As a regular visitor to SS's house in Thanjavur and as one who knows a few members of their family I know or heard of none in that family as being in penury.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 217414.ece

RaviSri
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Re: Music and copyright

Post by RaviSri »

These are only one line of descendants. It is unfortunate. But there are others who are well off. Natesa Iyer's grandson Raja, the son of Sri Subramanian, his sister (who lives in Shyama Sastri's house in Thanjavur) and many others are not in penury. The biscuit factory was started by Natesa Iyer. With changing times perhaps, the business didn't fare well and this particular family fell into bad times.

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