Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

At the cell level, life is just a computation and we are just computers , quoting for e.g. Stephen Hawking in public news - and the process of energy transport from/to mitochondria works accurately even as it is randomness with specificity ( Paul Davis from Fifth Miracle)!

So we will wait for the Carnatic Genome to be found and that will answer the question posed by SMAG editor. After that certainly hollywood/bollywood celebrities should be able to afford the treatment to proceed to enjoy Carnatic music - increasing their boundaries of artistry!

After all we are just 46 chromosomes aren't we!

Nick H
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by Nick H »

When we grumbled about the cold, a schoolteacher used to say, "It's only the absence of heat."

Even to 14-year-olds, it was obvious that this was neither useful nor as clever as it was supposed to sound.

srikant1987
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by srikant1987 »

Nick, I follow what you're saying; saying that some people just lack the "Carnatic genome" isn't much different from saying some people just lack the poorva punniyam (good karma from past births) to be born into a good Indian family, and that unless they go through DNA-level surgery or a very literal agni shuddhi (hellfire?), they just can't get it. Having personally been born out of a blessed foetus, I know how much events in my life -- AFTER adolescence, together with appropriate guidance, have altered my musical journey. This process didn't involve any genetic modification or alchemy. To some people glitzy "CM" isn't very different from the kind of music most dear to me. But I very sincerely and honestly differ.

Nick H
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by Nick H »

I don't deny that some people don't like it, and some can't stand it. A friend of mine with varied and serious music taste does not like it at all: to her the notes are all wrong, the tuning is all wrong, the scales are all wrong. She is not able to get as far as the content as she does not even like the wrapper.

sankark
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by sankark »

Nick H wrote: 15 Apr 2017, 13:56 I don't deny that some people don't like it, and some can't stand it. A friend of mine with varied and serious music taste does not like it at all: to her the notes are all wrong, the tuning is all wrong, the scales are all wrong. She is not able to get as far as the content as she does not even like the wrapper.
That there is the core problem in appreciation of arts, any art. Preconceptions, cast-in-stone-will-not-change-come-hell-or-high-water opinions, etc. Her notes/scales are wrong simply says a yard stick made to measure something else being used to measure a different thing. It takes monumental effort to break out, knowing well that at the end of that effort you may still end up not liking it. So loss aversion it is for us mortals usually. The central concept of the CM is that the spots of the note-cheetah shifts/osciallates subtly around the core position depending on the ragam within which the note dwells.

Nick H
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by Nick H »

Her notes/scales are wrong simply says a yard stick made to measure something else being used to measure a different thing. It takes monumental effort to break out,
Yes, that is certainly right. I even have a discomfort zone when changing personal tunings between CM and HM, although it does not last very long.

sankark
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by sankark »

bilahari wrote: 14 Apr 2017, 13:55 My WCM violinist friends were downright shocked by some of the music produced by much venerated violinists, and they find the bulk of our vocal music unlistenable.
IMNSHO, the loss is theirs.

What about the violin tanam playing in this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6iQT6R6FPc

Nick H
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by Nick H »

the loss is theirs
I think so. But I return to my square one: some can't listen, but many, many more never got the chance because they don't know about it.

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

A SPB or Jesudas tour is fairly advertised well and happens as a stadium full event. A recent SPB event was stadium full - I don't think many Western audience turn up at this events either. It may be light music - but still has the pure notes - as TVG claims in his pre-SK interview trying to explain away the reach of light film music vs. carnatic music. We have to purify our notes - was his take! if western listeners are not listening to the pure note music from India, it cannot be that the oscillating Thodi that turns them away can it be?

The SMAG blogger editor poses the question with the idea that somehow carnatic music has "aesthetics" comparable to the "aesthetics" of other classical musical systems - generalizing that people all over the world in classical times thought in the same (better) way as opposed to the current pop music of all different areas - one humanity - one universal world - with 46 chromosomes how can it all be so different yeah!

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 13 Apr 2017, 13:25 And do they need to? If it is not a problem because people are gathering to do their cultural thing, as is their right... no they don't.
This is not about asserting rights. Rights don't mean anything if they are not honored by people around. And they have so many ways to rightfully not honor them if you know what I mean. I am grateful to the authorities who afford this space for Indian community to meet and express their culture. Also facilitated to a large extent because Prof. Tuttle was interested in Sri tyAgaraja. Lets remember him today!

But somehow even the intellectual East views this as an obligation that we have - that we have migrated to somebody else's land. Legally , sovereignti-cally that may be correct, but the larger truth is Indians went as slaves very close upto Trinidad - if you know Sir Naipaul - while Chinese and Africans made it little further into the mainland.

The whole celebration is made viable to this scale, because America needed IT labor and esp. during Y2K conversion which was the massive upsurge! The chief organizer ran an IT company.

To that end we have met our obligation - many artistes from HM/CM world have done the fusion , some artistes have done the Jazz fusion as well. Even percussionists all the way to Pazhani have done the fusion. L Subramaniam's concert had a modicum ( 10 - 20%) of Western audience in addition to North Indians ( He brought Kavita with him to do some hits in between).

But core Americans ( if I can call them that) may have different views about this, and much of which can be sourced from their religious beliefs as well.

A catholic boss of mine immediately asked if I sang some religious song after hearing Muddu Momu in Suryakantham - not a very rakti rAga. What Telugu he knew?

As regards Abrahamic stuff - you seem to react whenever I imply something even remotely - though you professed yourself to be an Atheist. I would like you to review this : http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstet ... eader.html - Point # 9 especially.

Nick H
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by Nick H »

I take an Abrahamic dig because I dispute the way that you use it as an umbrella word, when I see too many differences between what some call "the people of the book." I'm afraid I am unable to read stuff that is written by and for fanatic evangelical Christians. Sure, I expect they need their brain-washing manuals, which, at as much glance as I could stomach, that appears to be. Distasteful stuff. Maybe to both of us. And one does not have to be atheist or from a "non-Abrahamic" tradition to think like that, which is why the church is largely irrelevant, not only to me, but to plenty like me.

But maybe religion is more of a thing in America.

srikant1987
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by srikant1987 »

There was an interview with Vidushi R Vedavalli -- I think at this now-malfunct link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G974YCTQkag -- where she spoke about a concert she gave in France. Her observation was that, unlike the US where most of the audience is Dharmic ("nammudavaa", in her description, iirc), the audience for the recital in France was mostly "veLLakArA". She said she didn't do any "tailoring" over what she usually sings, and that the music was well received.

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

bilahari wrote: 14 Apr 2017, 13:55 I do not think most Carnatic musicians adhere to the fundamentals of music: adherence to pitch, a focus on sound production, and technical mastery. My WCM violinist friends were downright shocked by some of the music produced by much venerated violinists, and they find the bulk of our vocal music unlistenable. And the acoustics in the auditoria where we hold our concerts leave so much to be desired. My one successful concert outing with white friends was a recital by TNK at Kalakshetra several years ago: everything about that concert was perfect and they listened in rapt attention for 3 h and couldn't stop talking about it. How many musicians produce that kind of music nowadays? How many concert halls have that kind of ambience?
https://youtu.be/d0s-1M4oRpk?t=692

You hear this - and the Alapana was a blissful Ananda Bhairavi that preceded that. But this is the weakness of SSI school - not SSI! TMT was strong also. But many others not enough to inspire people like me to pickup their recordings in a Sankara Hall visit!

mEl kAlam conversion/progression of miSra cApu, especially in a Syama Sastri kriti - losing that loses the entire thing.

It is like the fractal self similarity of temple carvings or the jarikai patterns in a silk saree!

So if I brought in additional "aeesthetical" criteria like this would you consider? Sruti Shuddham?! what about laya Shuddham or awareness? So why play kritis as Dr N Ramanathan asks in that presentation. Why even pallavis? - just like Bangalore Nagaratnammal have courage to do Alapanas only - will the audience take it - in the Ghetto first - forget elsewhere?

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

The SMAG editor's better half reviewer Gowri Ramnarayan - she goes to a Hyd. brothers concert @ KGS and remarks on KRM's accompaniment as Loud explosions in a Hindu review. She got nothing else out of it? If she is in her Ghetto - people like me who pay attention to these are we in a Bunker under that Ghetto?!

Has she ever reviewed the tani Avartanam only event @ Astika Samajam Alwarpet, ever - just round the corner from the Sabhas she trots around? Sruti-Laya not Sruti. Has she come out of her ghetto?

I challenge her to go there every year and write reviews - she does not have to understand anything - just write something qualitative!

She is all liberal intellectual of The Hindu variety to use the word "secular" for padams and javalis. Without going into paramatma/jivAtma - simple fact - Smt T. Brinda had SSI fall at her feet before she taught him anything. That should tell anybody how sacred she valued those! That is property of a motherhood lineage - just sacred by that fact all by itself!

And now they call another group half way around the world a cultural ghetto?
bilahari wrote: 14 Apr 2017, 13:55 Times have changed. In order to keep up with audience expectations, even popular music, like Tamil film music, has changed dramatically from even the 90s. Driven by rigid structure and great inertia and unwillingness to focus on the fundamentals, classical music has not kept up with the times.
Sanjay has included more songs. Increased his repertoire! He is being reported to draw large crowds. In that regard would Gowri know the difference between his Brigha and a TNS Brigha - not the air burp vs off key - but really?? She writes raving reviews on him sometimes.

Do you think this is good enough - just more and more new songs?

It took Autistic repetition for SrI mAtRbhUtam to go from this

https://www.sangeethamshare.org/ksj/Sem ... --PMI-VI-/
( Vilvadri Iyer means it must be older!) to this:

http://www.sangeethamshare.org/asokan/C ... IC/063-SSI

and PMI to go from tharai thappaTTai ( to quote Uday_shankar from sangeetham.com) in the first to a distilled and punctuated silence in the second!

melam72
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by melam72 »

shankarank wrote: 18 Apr 2017, 10:29 The SMAG editor's better half reviewer Gowri Ramnarayan - she goes to a Hyd. brothers concert @ KGS and remarks on KRM's accompaniment as Loud explosions in a Hindu review. She got nothing else out of it? If she is in her Ghetto - people like me who pay attention to these are we in a Bunker under that Ghetto?!
I am not a fan of Gowri Ramnarayan. From her uncombed hair (come on, it take 20 seconds to comb your hair!) to her sickeningly saccharine reverence to all things MS Subbulakshmi, so I will not take her word up at all. The golden age of good critics and Subbudu has long passed!

And, for the record, I feel that that the paramathma-jeevathma argument for Javalis is weak and unfounded, and made up by a society uncomfortable with eroticism. The fact of the matter is this: javalis and padams are erotic. It is ambiguous whether they had human subjects or divine subjects, but there is a possibility the former is true too. Some people are uncomfortable with lyrics like 'tArumAru lADEvEmE bajAri', because society has conditioned us to be uncomfortable with the sensual and to regard eroticism with something dirty. This very eroticism has lead to the bowlderization of Bharatanatyam and the disappearance of padams and javalis from the stage today.

In my opinion, CM will be aesthetically enhanced if we accept the eroticism of Padams and Javalis as they are without resort to such pusillanimous arguments.

Fight! :twisted:

semmu86
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by semmu86 »

melam72 wrote: Fight
No need to, actually! SrungAra rasa plays an important part in all walks of life, Music included. Ramanuja Iyengar too, overcame the initial apprehensions of setting thiruppAvais to tune and singing them on stage, on account of this (Especially pAsurams like "kuththuviLakkeriya"), but then did so, after insistence from Kanchi periyavA.

VAlmIki himself, on describing the essence of Srimad Ramayanam says at the very beginning "kAmArtha guNa samyuktham"!! Prof. TRS once mentioned in one of his lec-dems about SrungAra rasa being the "rAja" rasa!

Thus eroticism plays an important part in all aspects of life!!!

Nick H
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by Nick H »

melam72 wrote: I am not a fan of Gowri Ramnarayan. From her uncombed hair ... ... ...

Charming, accomplished and highly knowledgeable lady. Look after your own hair!

.

SrinathK
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by SrinathK »

And, for the record, I feel that that the paramathma-jeevathma argument for Javalis is weak and unfounded, and made up by a society uncomfortable with eroticism. The fact of the matter is this: javalis and padams are erotic. It is ambiguous whether they had human subjects or divine subjects, but there is a possibility the former is true too. Some people are uncomfortable with lyrics like 'tArumAru lADEvEmE bajAri', because society has conditioned us to be uncomfortable with the sensual and to regard eroticism with something dirty. This very eroticism has lead to the bowlderization of Bharatanatyam and the disappearance of padams and javalis from the stage today.
And that is society's greatest irony IMHO -- a shy country soon to become the world's most populous.

Even the paramatma - jeevatma argument doesn't exclude shringara as a spiritual rasa in the bhakti movement - that is also one of the experiences possible. Actually before the concept of reverential devotion caught on, there was actually no difference between rasa anubhavam and bhakti, with reverential devotion as one of the flavours of spiritual experience. I even believe that other religions with their specific exclusion of any flavour other than the reverential might have found shringara bhava or even the worship of God in a form as something uncomfortable and this might have rubbed off on us more than we'd like to admit. The real issue is that certain rasas appeal more to private and personal experiences than others that are more public and visible and it is this discomfort that we're trying to dodge rather than admit.

However, commenting on someone's hair is a low blow alright. No doubt, the avatar has returned.

melam72
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by melam72 »

semmu86 wrote: 18 Apr 2017, 18:51 Thus eroticism plays an important part in all aspects of life!!!
But how many of us are comfortable with admitting so?

srikant1987
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by srikant1987 »

Semmu wrote:Thus eroticism plays an important part in all aspects of life!!!
ALL aspects? :lol:

sureshvv
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by sureshvv »

SrinathK wrote: 18 Apr 2017, 19:00
However, commenting on someone's hair is a low blow alright
Not really! It is typically what you expect from a tasteless (balding?) control freak - a fan of Subbudu's to boot!

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 18 Apr 2017, 19:00 The real issue is that certain rasas appeal more to private and personal experiences than others that are more public and visible and it is this discomfort that we're trying to dodge rather than admit.
Traditionally this knowledge was passed down in the family and rendered in Chamber. The sabha-dom abandoned this! That does not mean we have to take that as final. The fact is the tradition is alive in some corner and people have that knowledge. There is heavy music to help enjoy the rasa more internally - just like great works of literature have the same rasa. So it is not just that it is apaurusheya when passed down from Mother to daughter ( Guru to Sishya) it can also be considered apaurushEya coming from a performer on stage to the listener - i.e. strictly for them only!

If you are a fiction reader today, Sydney Sheldon and Fredrick Foresyth write gripping stories and they have their version of eroticism inside the story - read strictly privately. From a modern perspective then, even a public performance though, can be treated as a private conversation between the performer ( or the composer or the music itself) and the listener. Presence of others in the arena should not matter. Especially when wrapped in heavy music. Lines are crossed if meaning is rolling on the side screens!!

Sacredness or divinity arises from the fact that this is handed down from Mother to daughter where they insist on retaining the idiom as is, at least when it is received. During sAdhakam newness can enter - but that should have something genuine, not look contrived - matter for reviewers and feedback system for debate. Before it used to be elders in the sadas! Where can be a sadas where no elders are present asks an old saying ( nIti Satakam?)

Even while commenting on how Gowri handled in the Dark Lord series - I am not questioning or referring to her personal/internal beliefs (no paurusham) ,but at the same time a characterization like Secular should not be brought in, in a cultural arena. Even Lit festivals are that - cultural when open to Public. This is true especially for a person who has seen and heard and knows the sense with which this was handed down.

Such things can be done in a fora like university/academia - but it is another matter that I as a tax payer will impress upon my government not to fund such view points. People have freedom of speech - they don't have the right to be heard! This is not science and such analysis has no scientific basis - it is as arbitrary a categorization done as anything else.

srikant1987
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by srikant1987 »

Wow, seems like some ice has finally broken!

Imo, calling padams and javalis "secular", especially when trying to mean that it makes them more "versatile", is weird (if I might, downright dumb). I've attended some concerts where I felt a nice jAvali would be such a musically natural choice for the next item, but it wouldn't be taken up because of the religious context.

But outside of it, are there really people who won't perform these padams and javalis because of their lyrics, that's imo a ridiculous "right to be comfortable" thing. https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/11/fre ... mfortable/

It's arguably even sillier if someone who is drawn to the music later runs away because of the religious connection.

melam72
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by melam72 »

srikant1987 wrote: 18 Apr 2017, 23:21 Imo, calling padams and javalis "secular", especially when trying to mean that it makes them more "versatile", is weird (if I might, downright dumb). I've attended some concerts where I felt a nice jAvali would be such a musically natural choice for the next item, but it wouldn't be taken up because of the religious context.
I completely agree, but associating it with jeevathma and paramathma is as weird (if I might, downright dumb). You ought to call a spade a spade.

melam72
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 18 Apr 2017, 19:55 Not really! It is typically what you expect from a tasteless (balding?) control freak - a fan of Subbudu's to boot!
My favourite forumite...

I can attest rather confidently that my hair brims with dark, fibrous hair, and grows so fast that I have to cut it every other week... what about yours? :lol: :lol:

sureshvv
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by sureshvv »

melam72 wrote: 19 Apr 2017, 07:07 I can attest rather confidently that my hair brims with dark, fibrous hair, and grows so fast that I have to cut it every other week...
C'mon... hair in your nostrils doesn't count!

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

melam72 wrote: 18 Apr 2017, 18:19 It is ambiguous whether they had human subjects or divine subjects
If we consider that Sound at its basic existence is divine - and that is how the sAdhana is done - there is no need to further go into the lyrics or their meaning. Let me ask you why should a Mother who hands this off to the daughter insist on the correct way to sing this? Sruti Shuddham etc., if this is not sacred?

Secondly the community that kept this alive through generations, if indeed, kept such a rich tradition alive - then they were integral part of the culture/civilization/society - i.e. they were not persecuted by the rest!

This kind of dissection is modern - and also influenced by Abrahamic religions ( Sorry Nick - I just don't want to single out Christians - may be I could also say Victorian moral codes). In Indian sense you cannot deny that a human has the potential to be divine! Such a distinction should never be done especially inside an expressive form like traditional music. We should use the word sAhitya not lyrics!

There is no need to go deeper into philosophies. A daughter/son can refuse to abide by parent's guidance - simply telling them "I am just a product of your pleasure - why should I listen to you?" and that has happened to married parents in the U.S. That is all it takes to finish off the tradition. Imagine if successive generations of daughters did not view it like that and how that tradition proceeded and musical treasures made available to us. If the Mother did not treat and project this as divine or sacred to their daughters we would not have gotten it in the first place!!!

melam72
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by melam72 »

shankarank wrote: 19 Apr 2017, 10:12 This kind of dissection is modern - and also influenced by Abrahamic religions ( Sorry Nick - I just don't want to single out Christians - may be I could also say Victorian moral codes). In Indian sense you cannot deny that a human has the potential to be divine! Such a distinction should never be done especially inside an expressive form like traditional music. We should use the word sAhitya not lyrics!
Which is exactly my point! The moment we began labelling this, we lost the aesthetic in our Karnataka Sangeetham. For example, the Thodi Ata Tala Varnam refers to a golden limbed woman longing for Sarabhoji! Had this been composed today, Pallavi Gopalayyar would be faced with a barrage of libel suits!

melam72
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 19 Apr 2017, 07:39 C'mon... hair in your nostrils doesn't count!
I don't comb my nostril hair. That seems like a very sureshvv thing to do :lol: :lol: :lol:

arasi
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by arasi »

Ah! Our intellectuals carry on a tiNNaip pEchu (discussion)--a mighty intellectual one, displaying their impressive prowess--then, they condescend (descend?) to include mere human grooming details! Why, many of us wonder. Please don't bring in chromosomes and culture into those as well, as if to add value to such trivialities :(

Now that maDi has become part of our vocabulary at Rasikas.org, keep the discussions maDi, so that we can learn from the interactions of such bright minds you all richly possess...

sankarank,
Your posts are worth reading--call it a geriatric bias on my part, if you will.

As for Nick, maDi sangItam is his wont, but what else is? Bless him for that :)

melam72
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by melam72 »

arasi wrote: 19 Apr 2017, 20:03 As for Nick, maDi sangItam is his wont, but what else is? Bless him for that :)
A wont of wont of English Note :lol: :lol: :lol:

Nick H
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by Nick H »

A wont of wont of English Note
But indeed no want! :lol:

(Although I'll make an occasional exception for Suryaprakash)

srikant1987
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by srikant1987 »

or TNK? :)

arasi
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by arasi »

Nick,
Now, that's a ray of sun shine (as in surya prakash) for me!
Your wont is 'I won't', otherwise :lol:

Srikant,
If TNK is not Nick's pick...well, not only will I be stunned, but disappointed!

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

arasi wrote: 19 Apr 2017, 20:03 h! Our intellectuals carry on a tiNNaip pEchu (discussion)--a mighty intellectual one, displaying their impressive prowess--then, they condescend (descend?) to include mere human grooming details! Why, many of us wonder. Please don't bring in chromosomes and culture into those as well, as if to add value to such trivialities
paDam evvaLavu serious-A irrundAlum naDu naDuvila Nagesh comedy illAma enda paDamum ODiyatillai :lol:
(However serious a (tamil) movie can be , it never became a hit without comedy bits ( Nagesh) in between) :lol: :lol:

Nick H
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by Nick H »

TNK is certainly my want and wont.

Believe it or not, TMK can be too!

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

biT-illAmal hiTT-Akavillai
viTTEn AdallAl viTTaDikka

hmm.. I am getting into Arasi's mode!

sureshvv
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by sureshvv »

Sometimes somone has to stand up to bullies.

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 19 Apr 2017, 22:30 Believe it or not, TMK can be too!
By TMK's time additional reinforcements were in store before he went to SSI - like he had Seetharama Sarma and then Chingelpet Ranganathan etc. - but still he was only technically perfect almost - never had that pause/abstraction and I am not referring to his speeding up for cresendo.

He is trying to do that by brute force now - searching for aesthetics in a deliberate fashion.

rshankar
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by rshankar »

shankarank wrote: 19 Apr 2017, 22:33hmm.. I am getting into Arasi's mode!
Arasi - time to look for a cullU - as in it's time for 'cullU bhar pAni mein dUb marnA' - and no translations will be forthcoming!

MaheshS
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by MaheshS »

rshankar wrote: 20 Apr 2017, 00:52 Arasi - time to look for a cullU - as in it's time for 'cullU bhar pAni mein dUb marnA' - and no translations will be forthcoming!
Do Not Feed The Trolls in Kannada? :lol: :lol: :lol:

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

Looks like Arkay is reacting to our discussions or what?

So VVS does a substantive discussion - I must admit I have heard Ravi Shankar but never bothered to read or know much about him - yeah he worked with the Beatles that much I know.

https://youtu.be/GMLVsL16t0Y?t=5727

So the counter culture that attended the 1971 Bangladesh concert in New York : 500K buffalos on the mud - people like Pt. Ravi Shankar walked away from them. They may have had a warped view of what was Indic - and behaviour unacceptable to us. But they were the ones up against the Judaeo-Christian ( Can I use the term Abrahamic Nick? - Pt. Ravi Shankar I think will not score as popular if I took a walk down the lane of the Abrahamics in the Republic of Texas) American establishment fueled from behind by the Church - that our Spiritual gurus must have capitalized.

They behaved the way they did because they don't have the benefit of Sanskriti and Samskaras ( which can never be seen equivalent to catholicism)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countercu ... _the_1960s

Some of them did experiment with Indian mystic ways. But Pt. Ravi Shankar would rather work with Scout boys of Symphonies more than those whose hearts beat for the Indic.

India lacked the narrative power at that time and lost on two fronts even as it liberated Bangladesh.

The hippies were appropriated by Chomksy and the like in the Anti-Vietnam war movement - the left appropriated the activism part. Any good out of it were assimilated, rather digested by the Judeo-Christian predator!

Back home the Bangladesh war that sent India into Soviet hands that had its own repercussions and our Academia were stuffed with Leftists!

That is the Indic lens view!
Last edited by shankarank on 21 Apr 2017, 11:00, edited 2 times in total.

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 21 Apr 2017, 10:25 Sanskriti and Samskaras ( which can never be seen equivalent to catholicism)
I am not sure if that is what is being done today. Certainly the colonial remnant that passes for Sanskriti today is being equated with the hegemony akin to that of the American establishment of the 1960s/70s and you can see TMK citing the Jazz movement as an example of socio-political that arts engaged with and he positions himself as a countervailing force against what is currently the "classical" cultural establishment.

Nick H
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by Nick H »

Judaeo-Christian ( Can I use the term Abrahamic Nick? ...
Well, I guess so. Abraham being specifically the father of the twelve tribes, I suppose one can't get much more Abrahamic than Judaism!

But, in some important ways, it seems to me to stand different. Off the top of my head... It is not an evangelical religion; in fact, they make it quite difficult to join! The Rabinical thing seems to me closer to the Brahminical thing: they do not spout (not evangelical) their religion, they are seriously scholastic. And then there is the matter of being truly ancient. Oh, hey, they have arranged marriages too :lol:

I'm not an insider to either. Would you see Rabinical tradition as being, if not brothers, then maybe cousins, to your own tradition?

On top of all this... according to me (and at least a few others would agree) Jesus was Jewish, and never had any intention of founding a new religion. He was a reforming rabi: the Jewish establishment disowned him. So, according to The Word of Nick-H :oops:, Christianity is all a mistake! In that there is a body of gospel writings and stuff, my history/psychic/mystic friends and teachers tell me that it has more to do with Paul than it has with Jesus

We digress :D

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

Well, Christians were able to do a narrative of persecution of Jesus by the Jews and that's how they learnt it as well, assuming Jesus story is somewhat true history. The underlying dogmas and their connections are worth the study.

sureshvv
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank's usage of Abrahamic is primarily to mean "Non Hindu" and from what I see a way of lumping together all Jews, Christians & Muslims under a broad umbrella in order to piss a maximum number of people off.

Nick H
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by Nick H »

Indeed. That's what I don't like about it.

Sometimes he makes an interesting point, though.

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 21 Apr 2017, 23:37 in order to piss a maximum number of people off.
At least I seem to have succeeded against one - if that was my intention. :twisted:

Not really - it was to refer to some original concept whose foot print can be found in all the faiths - that is different from eastern traditions. If I used the term western - it is still too broad and there are so many other things like left leaning liberalism and other categories that their sociologists have laid out.

Also I would like to avoid crass identities - it may actually serve a purpose of respectfulness even as I seek to differentiate. Abrahamic became a category as Hinduism (if that is even a clear identity) many times did not have a seat on the narrative table even after Swami Vivekananda etc.

I also don't use Hindu that much if you noticed.

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

Now that would be a candidate to break the Ghetto - at least a sitarist would succeed! :twisted: :lol:

http://www.thehindu.com/news-service/ca ... epage=true

shankarank
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Re: Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

Post by shankarank »

When Zakir played for Shakti group - he did 7 over 4 ( 7 beats in a period of 4 Aksharas) and Srinivas/Selvaganesh especially/McLaughlin were doing tAlam with nerves busting out of their fingers (narambu puDaikka) and you could hear var-E-vahs and balE - ustAd-ji from the audience.

When Arun does the same thing @ Plano Courtyard theater for Ra-Ga sisters who did a tAlam somewhat attentively - nobody to acknowledge explicitly!

It takes a Birju Maharaj @ Spic Macay IITM to demonstrate such things when tavil vidvans were doing this as a matter of fact all over the south and no one knew or pointed out!

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