Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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ganesh_mourthy
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Anybody who is a connoisseur of our music system will enjoy listening to these 3 parts. Many nuances condensed into 3 parts beautifully. So well presented by a good team, well edited. I watched it in several 20 min parts and thoroughly enjoyed it. Highly recommended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va7kZP434LE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaZJSah3NyE&t=385s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jMvw76Zprw&t=238s

shankarank
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by shankarank »

https://youtu.be/Va7kZP434LE?t=143

The sound that most ordinary people outside of any concert going even of yester-years heard is being played @ 29 minutes into this : https://archive.org/details/Thirumegnanam3

Very plain folkish take in fact. I played this in a recent Seemandham that I happened to attend from my smart phone plugged into a line in!

The father of the husband - very distant relative - resides in Mambalam - not an avid concert goer - was immediately mesmerized and invested himself into it - if I borrow the term from TM Krishna. He didn't know the name of the rAga. As the song started however he nailed it - not the rAga but the song - sara sAma dAna. He is among many - who never would have ventured anywhere close to a Sabha - including one of my uncles who never listens to any CM , but knows this song!

Apart from the rAga - CM exists in about 3 rhythmic investments made in the text sAma, bEda and catura by tyagarAja! Ok also the fourth the danDa!

So all this kampita gamaka is CM is incomplete and to make that alone as identifier is a lie!! !

It is being made with reference to people who have listened to only Jingles R. D Burman music ( to quote SPB himself ) and CM defined using their barrier of entry!

The fact is CM became old fashioned music - then brahminical music - and shunned by rest of society for that very reason. The left and Robert Caldwell setup this subversive backdrop nicely!

And now with him proclaiming that the text of what tyAgaraja spoke in his kritis is not important - the liberation philology of cleansing the oppressive text of Ramayana out of the music, is achieved!

shankarank
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by shankarank »

The picasso painting analogy completes the museum placement of the kampita gamaka. He can record all the variations on a gold LP plate played with a diamond stylus, to safeguard - oops too hard in Europe as museums will be under siege in a few decades - somewhere in America, in a vault may be.

Improverished as Indians are - India is not a choice to begin with.

shankarank
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by shankarank »

Gamakam enRal kallum karaiyumam! Gamakattai kallAkkiya perumai T.M Krishna-vukku

Translation: Gamaka is said to melt a stone. Gamaka being engraved into a stone (metal) is a TMK repute!
Last edited by shankarank on 23 Apr 2017, 10:22, edited 1 time in total.

marajesh
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by marajesh »

Thank you. Found this very useful. I am glad we live in a time when such content is available free easily.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by Nick H »

Some authorities have theories. Even the greatest authorities can be challenged. But, it seems, TMK has "lies?"

I worked for a Japanese company. The Japanese expat managers always stuck together, and usually in Japanese too, of which only a couple of local non-Japanese employees had any inkling. We were, therefore, stunned when the MD replied to a long management-meeting tirade by a very senior colleague, "Yes, but do you have anything useful to say?"

Correct or not, arguable or not, I have no clue. If I had a clue I might not feel the need to watch it. I am watching it, and finding it interesting and useful. Accessibility to some of us begins with clear and fluent English. Top marks to TMK for this project and many thanks to ganesh_mourthy for letting me know.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

It is a good one to me to watch. Sometimes the cynicism and allusions are so intricate and complex in Rasikas, it seems to me that it is a much bigger ocean than Music itself. Music is simpler now.

shankarank
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by shankarank »

You have been posting since a long time and you must have been listening to this music for quite a while longer even. What was so complex till now and what has been simplified? Also have you commented on any concert just sharing your impressions - or you just bought into the conventional wisdom that one has to be "knowledgeable" - whatever that means - in order to "review a concert" whatever that means?

If you held back "reviewing" concerts so far, has that become easier now?

Did kampita gamaka ever bother you from listening to this music? If yes did you appreciate ragams/scales without those to begin with? And do you think those are just waiting to be harnessed by music that is not carnatic - for example the popular film music - and not essentially carnatic?

I just want to see how much of "critical" thinking skills that are generally lacking in our education system , that no other musician so far critically took a look at carnatic music, and TMK having gotten an education with "critical" thinking skills has new insights - how much of that is also held by those who praise this presentation as best ever?

Or is he another messiah that leads the horses to water and make them drink as well?

varsha
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by varsha »

The job of the artist is to deepen the mystery .Francis Bacon

srikant1987
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by srikant1987 »

^ But the job of a lecturer is roughly the opposite.

shankarank
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by shankarank »

Mystify the depths? :lol:

marajesh
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by marajesh »

Maybe there is nothing in it for a person who has listened to Carnatic music for a long time/ trained in it to a certain level. From my perspective as a "lay" listener, the videos serve the purpose of allowing me to follow the plot when listening potentially - like Aaron Copland's How to listen to music or a similar titled Yale open university course for Western classical. Not suggesting it is essential - surely you can enjoy music without any framework. Nothing wrong in having one though as a listener. I have no opinion on whether this is the best ever or even very good. It is nice presentation and is useful.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

It is certainly not limited to gamakas and kampitas. It is a lot lot more and Nick would vouch for it. And if you ask if that matters , I think it definitely matters to a listener if he wants to understand the system and parts it is made of, and even more so for a learner. When I meant the best, I particularly mentioned the team work , presentaiton, video .it is wholesome. There coudl be some who would say that lec dems are unnecessary. I have no comment.

Nick H
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by Nick H »

I watched 1.5 sections so far. Alapana continues to mystify, but if I watch a few times it might clarify some things for me. Already picked up a clue or two. Neraval... I had no idea about most of the things he is telling, and it was easier to follow. Will certainly watch the rest. And again.

Laziness confession: I keep meaning to read his book. I think it survived the flood. Maybe some of this stuff is in there.

It is not necessary to be a TMK fanboy, or to agree with his ideas about carnatic music and its place in the world, or religion. Or etc. to get useful information out of this. Many rasikas have been music students or learnt by experience of listening: they may, simply, not feel the need.

Of course, if anyone has a real personal antipathy towards TMK, they are not going to want to watch. but such personal things are... personal. It is sometimes true that a message may be good, but we just don't like the messenger.

For my part, anti-TMK bias, resulting from listening to others, and reading some of his writing, which I have rated as just bad, became a lot less when I started listening to his music!

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Nick H wrote: 24 Apr 2017, 11:40

For my part, anti-TMK bias, resulting from listening to others, and reading some of his writing, which I have rated as just bad, became a lot less when I started listening to his music!
That is true. I love to listen to his music for that slow rendition like the following one even though it is not heavy super carnatic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKuldiEgJt4

His articulation is good. clarity in voice. Unhurried singing.
Do you have to understand to enjoy music ? we do not have to . But then when we like somethign and do not like the others, we cannot even justify it. " the answer woudl be " well that is how it is , music is not for analysis".

Nick H
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by Nick H »

Nobody has to understand music to enjoy it, or even to be moved by it. But there is no harm in doing so!

shankarank
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by shankarank »

But anybody can be disturbed by his style of Akaram and the overall tone as well. Not just presence of kampita gamakam!

So this plain note vs. oscillating note analysis is shallow! And he, while wanting break down folk vs. classical barriers , is creating new barriers like - people who connect to music through their emotional constructs ( Bhakti being one of them) vs. people who enjoy the kampita gamakam as "art" music - a barrier that he erects purely from a "critical" mindset.

Because going by prevailing wisdom - "artists" are professionals who charge for their "concerts" and "art" has to be viewed only as that - a profession.

We have to understand the underpinning of that "critical" method.

kvchellappa
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by kvchellappa »

TMK's music and his opinions are worlds apart as RSachi hinted in another thread.
In this lec-dem his singing is so enjoyable unlike in many concerts. He perhaps violates some of the things he says when he sings a non-concert.
This man knows, knows what he knows and knows to communicate crisply. In CM he is certainly more than an SK. It does not matter whether and when he gets, but in his opinions there isn't the perspective which he has in music.
It is too much to expect that he can make everything clear in one lec-demo on manodharma, which must be vast and also subjective in a way though within a boundary.

shankarank
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by shankarank »

We discussed his music there ( in the other thread) and we discuss his opinions here. You think a person with some agenda will really mangle the music and then put out his opinions. I am not questioning his integrity (or honesty) as regards his opinions or his sincerity as a student of music , or his stature now as a musician. As regards whether he deserves SK or not - irrelevant to this discussion.

In fact he should be allowed to railroad the sadas with his perspective and it should be fun to watch and one hell of a season. But he has also dismissed the award system as one of the most meaningless in his speeches. So no telling whether it will happen or not!

As regards my opinion on awards - given the marketing skills of many musicians and the accompanying Asian humility as the westerners call it, any publicity or praise of any kind is worth its effort - even if musicians are already popular within the realms of CM!

As regards honoring Gurus that have spawned disciples - that is a minimum sacred duty that the musical community must perform.

varsha
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by varsha »

by Nick H » 24 Apr 2017 20:25

Nobody has to understand music to enjoy it, or even to be moved by it. But there is no harm in doing so!
https://www.mediafire.com/?foyyyywedljjyqb
:lol:

shankarank
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Re: Best ever, A very engaging and informative nuance filled Lec Dem by ..

Post by shankarank »

varsha, a video mix with synced lip movements could be done and explained to all our mamas ( I exempt mamis - since layafpitA ;) ) who missed out on music during their work life. :lol:

TMK in his Feyman's lectures on carnatic music - at some point says don't look for any rationality in this - there is no reason for things the way they are!

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