Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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newid
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Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by newid »

I had occasion to attend another Kunnakudi Balamuralikrishna concert, and was struck again by why he was the only artist who made me want to write here and talk about him (a Bharat Sundar concert came close to eliciting similar response, but I suspect it was more Shreesundarkumar's kanjira playing. For background, I have listened to, live, pretty much all top practicing carnatic musicians today). I am an untrained/novice carnatic listener, coming from a typical DMK-brainwashed upbringing that was robustly anti-anything-brahminical, and I ended up a 'rasika' following a typical route for my generation - easy-listening (ambient? spiritual?) -> fusion -> Bombay Jayashree/Sudha Raghunathan -> Sanjay Subramanian/TM Krishna -> all good carnatic music. I still do not know much of the nuances of this art form, nor can I recognize any ragas or composers, but I do know I like carnatic music, and I seek it out as my primary listening pleasure (jazz is second); if i may be a little crass - paying for concerts, buying albums, and supporting artists whenever, however I can.

I see topics here and there about how to popularize carnatic music, and after the Balamuralikrishna concert, I got to reflecting my own experiences - for all its detractors, what pulled me in was the pure physicality and theatrics of the music. What some here call the 'seshtai' of the performer. Some of it comes through in recordings, but seeing the exertion, the joy, the strain, the enthusiasm an artist imbibes into his music is what signals to me its humanity and unselfishness. Perhaps there is a reason restraint is celebrated by most carnatic rasikas, perhaps it is how it is supposed to be, but for someone far removed from the core of the bhakti or the intellectual sophistication of the music, only thing that matters is 'seeing' how an artists joy moves them to reach and search for those sounds and inflections.

It is like jazz, hearing it on a recording can be cacophony, but when you see a good concert live, it all makes sense... the pure physicality of an artist diving into themselves and into their instruments to express an emotion, it draws your own emotional investment. That hook is not always needed after you get it, and one can appreciate the music for its merit - independent of the musician - in some sense.

So coming back to my original point, overt appealing to the masses is easy to spot as a sham. Even when I was listening to fusion music, or watching Kunnakudi Vaidyanathan and Ramesh Vaidya on TV, it was obvious the music was cloying and made for a 'lesser' audience. That work is crucial to inviting audiences into the milieu, but what really is needed is to have people see musicians expressing their passion unabashedly, without a wink and a nod. Show me you care, so that I can care. For all of TM Krishnas efforts at taking carnatic to the masses, what would serve the cause better is to better promote and organize Kunnakudi Balamuralikrishnas US tour and any India/worldwide tours. He has he visceral magnetism to pull people in (maybe not people this forum cares about, but more people who could support and sustain this music. I took my 4 yr old to a Sanjay Subramanian concert, and he couldn't wait to leave. I took him to the KBMK concert and he was either bouncing to the talam or transfixed to the stage for a good 20 minutes).

Just some freewheeling thoughts, feel free to ask me questions or discucss.

(and before I forget, man, KBMK! I love them all, but with his voice much improved and his sheer, sustained dynamism, KBMK kept me glued to my seat far longer than anyone I've seen live).

Sachi_R
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by Sachi_R »

Newid,
I can well relate to your self assessment as an interested listener responding to the music more than the technicality of Carnatic music. I am also on the same journey but maybe I boarded the train earlier.

One thing, though. KBMK ticks many boxes for even a very knowledgeable rasika:
1. Solid delivery of songs in accepted Bani (the all-pervasive SSI school)
2. Great manodharma in raga, niraval, swara segments
3. RTP calibre - can hold his own in every segment for virtuosity, range, musical appeal
4. Many languages, many types of songs, good in viruttam.. .
5. Mastery of laya (being a trained percussionist to boot)

So if someone like you and me, not too qualified to comment on technical aspects, likes KBMK, it augurs well for his "branding".

One thing though. For the listener looking for a profound musical experience akin to listening to a Hindustani maestro like Bhimsen Joshi, Amir Khan, or Mallikarjun Mansur in their heyday, almost every present-day Carnatic singer comes across as sacrificing depth and lasting musical impact for speed and drama. KBMK is no exception. Perhaps speed and drama is what sells today.

melam72
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by melam72 »

Sachi_R wrote: 30 Apr 2017, 22:37 almost every present-day Carnatic singer comes across as sacrificing depth and lasting musical impact for speed and drama. KBMK is no exception. Perhaps speed and drama is what sells today.
That may be true for the 'superstars', but some of the young-and-upcoming singers, like K Gayathri, Amrutha Venkatesh, and Rocky M, exist as a case in point for 'popular' singers who do not use speed to sell.

hnbhagavan
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by hnbhagavan »

Old timers like Vijaya Siva and OS thyagarajan never made speed as their attracting feature.Each one of their concerts have chaste,melodious music-be it a knowledgeable Rasika or not.In the last concert of Abhishek Raghuram-he also indulged in fast paced swaras,neravals resulting in complete noise.
there are some young artists - Amrita Venkatesh,Amrita Murali and mid level Sumitra Vasudev who do not indulge in fan fare.
TM Krishna in spite of saying unconventional things gives his best and melody never takes a backseat.
I belong to the class of Non Knowledgeable Rasika,but can recognise and distinguish noisy and melodious music.

Sachi_R
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by Sachi_R »

I agree, Melam and HNB.
I have reported after concerts of the artistes you cited, saying pretty much exactly that.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Who is Rocky M , in carnatic music ??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pattamaa
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by pattamaa »

Ramakrishnan Murthy ?

shankarank
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by shankarank »

newid wrote: 30 Apr 2017, 20:52 Even when I was listening to fusion music, or watching Kunnakudi Vaidyanathan and Ramesh Vaidya on TV, it was obvious the music was cloying and made for a 'lesser' audienc
if you said that 5 years back you are an elitist - but today if you say it - you are an art music connoisseur! That is the only difference.

If you spotted something genuine in KBMK music there is lot of tradition , sAdhakam behind it. Same thing can be said of Kunnakudi Vaidyanathan too - but he tailored his style for his times.
newid wrote: 30 Apr 2017, 20:52 So coming back to my original point, overt appealing to the masses is easy to spot as a sham
You are kidding me. When TNS started his career so many women could not stand him and flocked to Maharajapuram instead! Truth is culture was left to Women to pursue in many cases and Men were proud of their work! They thought this was all boondoggle!
newid wrote: 30 Apr 2017, 20:52 That work is crucial to inviting audiences into the milieu, but what really is needed is to have people see musicians expressing their passion unabashedly, without a wink and a nod. Show me you care, so that I can care
OK.. you are one demanding customer alright! When this music struggled and musicians struggled, in a boondoggle location far away they would render some light ragas - I mean real "classical"- :?: musicians - not the populist types. And there will be a connoisseur there cursing them too! So this is not a problem limited to popular out-reachers! This has been the problem well within the ghetto and its replicas!

As regards reach of musicians : Before a Chaurasia Osho recording can reach me down south, he must be first recognized in his Ghetto! It is not like he has to prove himself to some approvers. But it is a genuine eco-system that makes an artist and the art a meaningful thing before it can spread slowly elsewhere. There will be lot of nay-sayers always. And not all flautists in that ghetto will be known to me and there may be good flautists equally capable!

Fusion is a modern thing - a necessity to see if artistes of different genres can pick up ideas from each other. Appreciation of that is at a museum level only - there is nothing in depth there.

For that to happen, it must first find it's ghetto! Have you gone to Karaikudi Mani laya fusion events?
newid wrote: 30 Apr 2017, 20:52 the pure physicality of an artist diving into themselves and into their instruments to express an emotion, it draws your own emotional investment
Can you now try this one ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6A5ucXApKc Too bad the toppi had too much reverb and curators of melody already complained in the comments. I would personally like a repeat performance of the same items - same venue - with more controlled audio settings for what is an exhuberant style of Mridgangam. On the third item don't miss the cross beats - exhilarating. I thought too much about reviewing this and gave it up - except that your post now gives me encouragement! :D

Such artists have to be valued and projected by the ghetto and already she showed promise by playing ahir-vAham or cakra-bhairav and she could be a potential cross country candidate! Except that her kalyani no longer would need to transition into Mohanam - but she gets bhashangam privilege instead!

newid wrote: 30 Apr 2017, 20:52 Perhaps there is a reason restraint is celebrated by most carnatic rasikas, perhaps it is how it is supposed to be, but for someone far removed from the core of the bhakti or the intellectual sophistication of the music, only thing that matters is 'seeing' how an artists joy moves them to reach and search for those sounds and inflections
This whole bhakti thing is a misused concept. People have not walked the walk and listened to traditional bhajana performances to see how much talent, interaction and physical involvement is there. Even a dance Mridangist - an art form that has showcased itself worldwide - is advising younger ones to play for Bhajanas to hone their skills. Somewhere down the line, this therapeutic meditation was syncretized into bhakti movement and some people inside the musical milieu also used it to critique artistes based on this. Artistes who lacked certain strengths, used such concepts to get at competing artistes to project their own strengths as superior ( the entire saukyam brigade!!!).

If the western missionaries, scholars, intellectuals criticized the ritual traditions of India, Indians responded to it by touting their Bhakti movement as the answer, without developing deeper understanding of their own traditions!.

As regards intellectual sophistication - less said the better. A group of avid listeners will wait for hours to listen to Flute Mali - and when I interacted with them decades afterwards I found that at that time they were just as good as any one just liking a film song today! This music was in the air more at that time. That's it. All this talk of "I need to know this music to enjoy it" is on flimsy grounds.

This whole thing about sublime music vs. drama filled one is a shallow discourse and it is an attempt by Indians to create a "classical" ( we also have it!) response to western classical music. Even symphonies on the edge of bankruptcy are now advertising on the radio as to how you can hear rain and thunder in their renditions!

Now a false debate is being foisted on the same people by trying to make a fashionable argument with classical vs. folk. In reality folk music has its own ghetto! And the so called classical music has only a modicum of success escaping it's ghetto with some fusion attempts largely due to economic success of the communities involved.

It goes without saying, that popular film music drew upon every one of the above and from elsewhere in the world - so that by itself does not represent any clear genre and cannot be cited by any of the genres as a success story for themselves!
newid wrote: 30 Apr 2017, 20:52 I am an untrained/novice carnatic listener, coming from a typical DMK-brainwashed upbringing that was robustly anti-anything-brahminical
That sort of stuff still happens. So Vallalar is completely anti-vedic and karl-marx explains Indian History well, along with how Christianity influenced some of Vallalar principles!

http://www.dinamani.com/editorial-artic ... 87348.html

Sachi_R
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by Sachi_R »

But it is a genuine eco-system that makes an artist and the art a meaningful thing before it can spread slowly elsewhere. There will be lot of nay-sayers always.
Good line, Shankarank! Reminded me t9btell you how, when I go to a Mango Mela, I find a heap of mangoes unloaded from a hay-padded bullock cart. I have to gingerly rummage through the pile to pick that one magnificent Raspuri!
What colour
What shape
What size
What fragrance
What feel
What delicious juicy sweetness!

For me, any day, a Raspuri before all else. Alphonso, Imampasand, malgova, neelam...

Image

sureshvv
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by sureshvv »

newid wrote: 30 Apr 2017, 20:52
(and before I forget, man, KBMK! I love them all, but with his voice much improved and his sheer, sustained dynamism, KBMK kept me glued to my seat far longer than anyone I've seen live).
Nice post! Heard him on the radio and was not nearly as impressed. Does that say something?

PS: In general I find radio concerts much more impressive than live concerts as far as the music goes.

Nick H
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by Nick H »

I can imagine someone going to a KBMK concert and being put off carnatic music for life.

newid: I'm not asking you to stop liking him, you should like whoever you like, for your own reasons. There are two or three hall fillers that I studiously avoid. One of them, I did not even manage to sit through my first exposure past the third song (Yep: shocked and appalled by the neraval ;) )

The thing is, not to assume that all newcomers will be wooed by the same thing any more than seasoned listeners are wooed by the same thing. And not to assume that "heavy-weight" music will necessarily put off newcomers. I have found that my warnings of "Look, you may not like this: you can get up and leave any time you like" have often been forgotten as eyes began to radiate bliss.

Of course, the same people might well have been enormously impressed by the sight of a guy waving his arms around.

Each to their own.


edit: erm, sight, not site. :oops:
Last edited by Nick H on 01 May 2017, 20:30, edited 2 times in total.

melam72
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 01 May 2017, 13:53 Heard him on the radio and was not nearly as impressed. Does that say something?
I find his music unimpressive, and to use the popular tamil expression, அழுது வழிகிறது. Too aggressive without the spark that Abhishek's music possesses.

For once, you actually have shown you have some taste! I am impressed ;)

shankarank
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 01 May 2017, 15:55 I have found that my warnings of "Look, you may not like this: you can get up and leave any time you like" have often been forgotten as eyes began to radiate bliss.
This happened in Musiri chamber. Muktamma was singing - about 2002/2003. I was just a curious visitor - having heard Sowmya and heard all about her pedigree and the fact that she was going to be singing along, I wanted to check this out.

I was seated on the garden outside. Couple of people tried to impress on me that I was too young to listen to this. This is all stretched and slow music - they said. Well I may have to give it to them a bit. My eyes radiated as soon as they started AbhimAnamennaDu Galgu in bEgaDa - I have not heard a more impeccable kAla pramaNam ever - Umayalpuram Mali on the Mridangam did not flinch throughout in his naDai. That was some experience ;) .

shankarank
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by shankarank »

melam72 wrote: 01 May 2017, 17:56 I find his music unimpressive, and to use the popular tamil expression, அழுது வழிகிறது. Too aggressive without the spark that Abhishek's music possesses.
appaDi pArtha chinna vayasilE carnatic musiccE azhutu vaDiyum ( unimpressive) - like when the amateurs or even professionals start Karaharapriya or some Sri Ranjani especially.

shankarank
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by shankarank »

Sachi_R wrote: 01 May 2017, 11:01 I have to gingerly rummage through the pile to pick that one magnificent Raspuri!
Away from the Ghetto - a box load of Banganapalli - must be airlifted from your city as I saw the airport codes on the label - green yet to ripe - :( - I have hopes of ripening it on the warmth of the fridge top - trick seem to work with Mexican ones - rice pot method not an option!

Sachi_R
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by Sachi_R »

Shankarank,
Keep it in a warm corner near the room heater, wrapped in hay/newspapers/light blanket, and check every 3 days.

Banganapalli is travel-hardy, but always my 3rd choice after Raspuri and Alphonso. Just my personal taste. After all it is the bulk of Indian mango crop, and travels as much as a busy Carnatic singer in India and overseas
🍋🍋🍋👍🍋🍋🍋

sureshvv
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by sureshvv »

melam72 wrote:
For once, you actually have shown you have some taste! I am impressed ;)
Oh.. in that case I may have to take a fresh listen ;)

In any case the OP seemed to enjoy watching him much more than listening to him - and I have to concede that KBMK's emoting & drama are top class. But when I listen to bilahari swaras devoid of a modicum of lilt, it is hard to be impressed with the laya prowess of the artiste.

newid
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by newid »

Nice discussion, everyone. To be clear, my perspective is one that of a rank newcomer who didn't grow up surrounded by, or exposed to carnatic music etc. (not-brahmin, usually irrelevant, maybe adds context here. One of the more funnier aspects of this journey for me is how much my spoken tamil stands out from others in the concert hall, thankfully tam-glish is an established enough language in this field :)

I didn't mean to rank KBMK above or below other artists in my post, merely that he may be one of the better toe-holds to convey the richness of carnatic music to an audience yearning to get a look-in. There is amazing beauty in TMK, RKM, the Amritha/Amruthas, Abishek and soo many other brilliant musicians mentioned here. I seek out and truly appreciate their music, all I was trying to say was if their music was what I was exposed to first, I'd have had less hooks into me (Abhishek is in someways closer to KBMK). Someone like KBMK could be a gateway to the diversity, complexity and beauty of this music. In another generation, it could have been Madurai Somu pulling in audiences to the grandeur of Tanjore Kalyanaraman, for instance.

Perhaps the laya element has an important role as well... early on I could (would) easily tune out all melody and simply follow the rhythm. That was the most accessible part of the music to me. Maybe it goes to the same physicality that occurred to me as being key in drawing people into carnatic music. Maybe this is less universal generalization and more my specific experience, but I will leave it here at least as one example. I would totally be all over Ananthakrishnan if I had come across him 5-6 years ago. I still do think he is an absolute genius and am blown away by his virtuosity, but (I know this is blasphemy here) I do actually appreciate K. Arun Prakash more these days. Yes, that particular avatar with TMK and RKS where he barely plays the mridangam. There are just so many facets and personalities to this music, and I am glad I stuck around to start appreciating it all, and much thankful for this forum and others for introducing me to more music and more artists.

Nick H
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by Nick H »

You, and your sincere perspective, are absolutely welcome! I felt a bit guilty being so dismissive of one the artists that you mentioned, because, although I have no problems with my own assessments and opinions, I did not want to sound dismissive of you. Because I am not.

I'd continue to maintain that the route into carnatic music does not have to be loud, fast, or full of dazzling arithmetic... but for some it does and is. To each their own road, and the more roads, the more people will follow them.

Looking back on my own entry into this music (although preceded by Hindustani), it was instrumental. It seems to me that, for many of us, at first, instruments are easier on the ear than the voice, and the little matter of understanding the words or not does not even occur. My wife has followed the same path, and now appreciates even the elder vocalists too. She no longer says "It's one of your old ladies; I'm not coming." And some of those "old" ladies were and are a great deal younger than she is: it is the style which she was talking about.

But me... well, I began and will end with "old ladies," (and men) from 18 to 90 :lol:.

fuddyduddy
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by fuddyduddy »

Great discussion!

newid - if you are referring to the concert in San Diego on 4/29, I did walk out if it thinking it was a concert of a lifetime as well! Well but that's how i feel every time I hear KBMK.

Just as every rasika knows exactly what kind of music they want to hear, a musician knows exactly what kind of music they want to give! Just let them be.

His concerts have energy, his concerts have melancholy.
His concerts have utmost creativity for alapanais as well as kanakku.
His concerts lack boredom, his concerts lack pre-rehearsed pallavis.
His concerts show that he can sing the same ragam 2 consecutive days and completely provide a different flavor each day (very rare in other concerts).
His concerts have speed, his concerts have slow melody, his concerts have the exact kala pramanam the krithi needs.
His concerts have the right gamakkam. His concerts lack the lazy gamakkams which unfortunately today is sometimes considered as pristine music.
He challenges himself, pushes himself and doesnt sit in 'comfort' zone and produce the same kinda music every concert.

With all due respects to every kind of musician whether their forté is Bhajans or Layam/Kanakku or Tamil compositions or Padams/Javalis or complicated Pallavis or all-together, there is a rasika for every genre and hats off to those rasikas who evolve and know exactly what they want to hear and also push themselves to learn more as a listener.

arasi
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by arasi »

What a beautiful thread this is! Makes me think I'm dreaming. The best of thoughts on CM are pouring in! Seems as if we are seeing it with eyes sans prejudice or with a certain air of superiority (about our own 'skills') in listening to it.

Thanks a bundle to the initiator, and a warm welcome! You remind me of Jayamohan, newid :)

melam72
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 01 May 2017, 21:01 In any case the OP seemed to enjoy watching him much more than listening to him
If OP like that kind of performance, OP should also watch the likes of the Cowherdess, the Car Driver, and the Mukhari Howler perform too :lol:

sureshvv
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by sureshvv »

melam72 wrote: 02 May 2017, 09:04

If OP like that kind of performance, OP should also watch the likes of the Cowherdess, the Car Driver, and the Mukhari Howler perform too :lol:
First of all it is not Car Driver. It is Carriage Driver. Get your vehicles right!

Nick H
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by Nick H »

Thanks to fuddyduddy for that perspective. His concerts are bearable to me if I shut my eyes, but only just. I have mentioned before that, for me, there is a sliding scale of infuriating mannerisms and musical quality: there more there is of the latter, the more I can put up with of the former. KBMK, according to me, is in deficit.

But I don't argue with fuddydudd's points. Or his enjoyment. And I am not going to tell halls full of people that they are wrong to be there. Sure, I can be arrogant, but not that arrogant :oops: :lol:. And it may be that I am simply not allowing myself to see qualities that are there.

I am delighted that any person can fill halls for carnatic music. I don't have to go and see him, her or them, but a full hall is good news, and it is good news that it might be getting people into halls who do not go to see others.

All this is good.

On the other hand, moving on to the boy racer, I am not so sure that making neraval sound like kalpana swara and turning kalpana swara into a thani is actually good for the music. But, on the other other hand, I hope to see him mellow and use his excellent voice, knowledge and virtuosity for [what I would call] better things. I may live that long: it may happen within, say, twenty years.

sankark
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by sankark »

Nick H wrote: 02 May 2017, 13:51 On the other hand, moving on to the boy racer, I am not so sure that making neraval sound like kalpana swara and turning kalpana swara into a thani is actually good for the music. But, on the other other hand, I hope to see him mellow and use his excellent voice, knowledge and virtuosity for [what I would call] better things. I may live that long: it may happen within, say, twenty years.
Believe the boy racer refers to the Sheik, as he has been called here. On both the counts, from your lips to the graceful Lord's ears.

melam72
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by melam72 »

sankark wrote: 02 May 2017, 14:46 Believe the boy racer refers to the Sheik, as he has been called here. On both the counts, from your lips to the graceful Lord's ears.
'Sheik', as he is popularly known, is not the Car Driver. The Car Driver happens to be a certain S. Subhramanyan.

melam72
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 02 May 2017, 10:38 First of all it is not Car Driver.
When I say Car Driver, I mean that. Just because your madness arises from you falling off some carriage doesn't mean that everyone drives carriages :lol:

Nick H
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Re: Appealing to new listeners of carnatic music...

Post by Nick H »

When I say boy racer, I am not talking about car drivers!

Even though somebody took the trouble to explain the epic origins of this car-driver thing, I still don't understand the allusion properly. Not even sure if it is meant to be a compliment or a criticism.

Curiously, there are damned good performers that attract audiences of more than 25. :D

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