CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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shankarank
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by shankarank »

And then there are the lyrics.

The lyrics of Tyagaraja’s kritis and the messages embodied in these fit in well with the broader project of Brahminisation of the high arts that was undertaken in the late 19th and early 20th century, partly in keeping with the ideological battles waged by the freedom movement. These messages include an exhortation to piety and devotion, an avowed aversion to wealth, and the promotion of the traditional activities of Vedic Brahmins. Tyagaraja’s kritis appealed to the kinds of audiences attracted to Carnatic music concerts in the late 19th and early 20th century, mostly Brahmins and other upper-caste elites in India.
Before that when they were performing in the courts of Marathas did somebody take a caste census - and how would they decide who were the elites then?

"avowed aversion to wealth!!" - that is why all the upper castes who were also land owners in Villages with increasing division of property chose to get educated rather ( else there would have been family fights for ancestral wealth) and get employed in urban locations. Some vestiges of the freedom movement could have aided in the creation of Music Academy and conferences - but certainly what sustained and fed them was some wealth - albeit earned with sweat serving British empire!

"promotion of the traditional activities of Vedic Brahmins" - tyAgaraja in many instances declares Sri Rama and divine nAda as embodiment of vEdas , Agamas, even while criticizing ostentatious rituals! Promotion of traditional activities of vEdic Brahmins was in the lineage of many families and nothing to do with sabha-dom! Seers being chief guests is more a recent phenomenon!

And can we take count the number of namasankirtanams and utsava sampradaya kIrtanams in the Golden era concerts? In relation to the real musical master pieces and musically appropriate smaller items that were expounded?

This is a shallow and biased view that only amplifies the other writings with colonized mindset - ignoring the fact that even as colonized people the preservers of tradition whether it is Trinity based carnatic music or court encouraged art music, did it out of love of their tradition and ringing true the basic principle that sound , letters , vAkyas are held divine in the Indian thought.

Without that we would not have created things so beautiful from pedestrian to sophisticated - and also we would have been run over - genocided - we could not have been taught English in the first place!!!

This writer would not be in front of a keyboard typing his eloquent article!

Quoting from NPR on the history of American natives - every new Railway line into a new state signaled the end of an American tribe!

shankarank
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by shankarank »

Indeed, even today, many members of a Carnatic concert audience are seen especially enjoying those moments when the names of various deities, be it Rama or Krishna or Parvati, occur in the course of a song.
Even today if you see who still continue to wear the devout marks on their forehead - many times accompanists and many times Mridangists only. Can they pronounce any of these names with their hands???

Nick H
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by Nick H »

This is a shallow and biased view
Shallow: it seems so to me.
This writer would not be in front of a keyboard typing his eloquent article!
Should not be. Eloquent: no, it only looks as if it is. Look closer at some of the words, take up a teacher's red pen and use it ruthlessly!
SOUTH INDIAN classical (Carnatic) music concerts are marked by a profusion of songs.
As Americans might say: what does that even mean?*

It is tedious reading for anyone who cares for well-written English.

Psuedo-academic lingo, sometimes meaningless. The trouble with bad English, is it makes one doubt the value of the underlying content.

I had thought that this was, perhaps, an undergraduate exercise. It is written by a full-blown professor. Oh dear.


*yes, yes... I know what he is saying. English is like that: it can be twisted, turned and mangled. Somehow we still, often, get what the writer or speaker meant. That does not justify the mangling!

sureshvv
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by sureshvv »

Paraphrasing frm the article:

Thyagaraja's messages include the promotion of the traditional activities of Vedic Brahmins
Completely 100% wrong! The author makes it clear he/she is clueless.

Many songs demonstrate the exact opposite.

1. Teliyaledhu rama
2. Manasu nilpa

RaviSri
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by RaviSri »

The idea is not comppletely wrong. He extols, for example, the qualities of Tiruvayyaru with the words, " vEDuchu bhUsurulagnihOtrulai vEda gOShamulachE nutiyimpa in muripemu (mukhAri).

He was only against hypocrisy and study of Vedas and performance of yagnas without true bhakti and shraddha.

shankarank
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by shankarank »

Which means things should be taken in context! So one cannot go to OpenTheMagazine addressing all manners of cultural uproots and make standard declarations. A misled person can suddenly be affected by this and view the heritage negatively. This has happened and many people are ill-informed.

Heritage is something people endeavor to preserve and nobody should place expectations that it prepares people to function in a hyper-sensitive corporate environment! It can have its own contradictions - it is up to the system to negotiate with the outer world.

That, the Indian milieu over all has done successfully - without the need for Left intellectuals - who have so far instigated only negative view of Indian history and have downplayed positive contributions!

In spite of so many philosophies arguing against rituals ( including tyAgaraja in yajnAtulu ), rituals continue to be observed and have not harmed anybody. Where there is harm due to messages conveyed - by far the society has negotiated those out - keeping it's positive view of the same traditions.

shankarank
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 05 May 2017, 23:41 nobody should place expectations that it prepares people to function in a hyper-sensitive corporate environment! It can have its own contradictions - it is up to the system to negotiate with the outer world.
I alluded to that after reading this : http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/m ... 384186.ece

It reminded me of the article below :

https://www.forbes.com/sites/moiraforbe ... ve-it-all/

There was a response from another woman too:

http://businesswolf.org/kim-kardashians ... ve-it-all/

And now we can conclude ( from overall Indian quest for success point of view) who objectified themselves and who stands as a role model? Of course perceptions can vary by culture and by people. It seems Women can choose to Objectify themselves - but men cannot do that to them!

Indra Nooyi : A women of lot of self worth I presume according to the standards laid out! She had addressed Cleveland Aradhana once as a key note speaker! I was bit shocked by her advice to Children that they need not feel odd to pursue Indian cultural activities - like herself having grown in Indian brahmin cultural ghetto - West Mambalam - she named the place - she has made it to the top! I could not understand the need for such an advice at that time. The NRI children have no surrounding prejudice like the one faced by Brahmin children in India even. This was years before books like "Being Different" by Rajiv Malhotra got published - which I have not read - but certainly listened to the talks around it.

After that Indra Nooyi speech our mamas walked out wondering why a speech like a commencement speech should be given in a tyAgaraja Aradhana.
Obviously in retrospect both the Mamas and Indra Nooyi herself could not have anticipated the kind of sociological tools that are being ( were already being - this was about 2001,2 or 3) unleashed to dissect socio-political problems in the Indian heritage.

I must say we are still ill-prepared to respond to the kind of issues raised in the above TMK article in The Hindu! My simple take is that : I think Men can have a conversation with themselves even in a concert hall filled with Women even - and if Women artistes feel they should not sing or render these misogynistic compositions - more power to them.

In all Aradhanas, Dudugu could become a male only rendition - with Sruti adjusted to male range 1, 1-1/2 - a good contrast and nice to listen too as well. ;)

And I will continue to seek cultural validation against tyAgaraja's words even as a person who has been thrown into this modern world! tyAgarAja has no obligation or responsibility to prepare me to work as a sensitive person in the politically correct corporate world!

TMK with his critical thinking skills raising these issues may seem OK as he is set on our culture. There are so many Indian scholars being trained and sent back to India , who have not lived through the cultural experience - even to a minimum degree - starting to produce this kind of analysis. We should stand up and say "get lost" to all these external forces. We should also guard against this becoming a dominant narrative all the way to school text books.

shankarank
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by shankarank »

From the TMK article:
It is therefore fair to assume that Tyagaraja himself was indulgent and did frame a considerable number of these non-raga ragas. In playing the swara permutation and combination game, he did alter raga abstraction
Several underlying axioms under this. Since the narrative have always been rasas expressed through sAhitya bhAva and rAga bhava - what is considered a rAga with a naturally evolved architecture is the only authentic core of the music.

So a rAga like supOshini is aesthetic extravagance - permutation combination exercise - kind of thing intellect would indulge in. tyAgarAja is no longer a primitive human automaton participating in a naturally evolving architecture which does not involve any significant application of intellect. He is able to think now.
This trend set by Tyagaraja was followed by many later composers like Muthiah Bhagavathar. While we are willing to critique 20th century composers, we forget that it was Tyagaraja who showed the way and therefore we also need to question him philosophically
Yeah SRJ Lecdem : HMB did all these new ragas sumanapriya .. this priya , that priya ! Our musicologists know that only melody is music and since music has to express feelings some rAgas were no good! Vijaya sarasvati for example avoids notes that don't have the direct samvadi pair in the other tetra-chord - I would think a sensible continuation from patterns observed in asampURNa mElas. Even though it sounds mostly like simhendra madyamam - it places that aesthetic challenge to the musician to show something different.
Tyagaraja’s position on women and caste was undoubtedly shaped by his times, his social moresbut one wishes that a mind as creative as his had gone beyond or risen above those.
So why did tyAgaraja not think about the oppression of Women and lower castes? Like the enlightened European socialists ? Who were funded with colonial loot to think about all this? yeah?

So when India had a 30% GDP share in 1600 with its jAti system in place - it was just empirical accidental know how - some naturally evolved techniques - with no critical thinking of any sort.

What a genius our critical thinking education has produced!

shankarank
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by shankarank »

The American right wing talk radio raised this concern about male unemployment / under employment during the last election cycle - and what destabilizing effect it would have on society. I am beginning to see more males in grocery check out lines since that time. Minimum wage increase will prevent businesses from hiring College students who will miss learning critical work skills like showing up on time - goes the argument!

So for all it's liberal face and ivy league / Mckinsey think tanks producing reports on third world, the first world (good re-intepretation of modaTi -krishna?) has an under belly that can think more than just critically!

India should note this - as such under / unemployed Men are the breeding ground for such destabilizing interventions!

shankarank
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by shankarank »

So here is another one from The Hindu, that reeks of a kind of post colonial stress disorder - reminiscent of my Grandpa generation which used to sit around in post-retiree conversations.

http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/m ... 384169.ece
I personally do not believe that all his music just poured out of him by divine will in spite of himself. If he was just a devotee, he would have been content with composing simple, emotionally charged songs. His deep devotion to Rama did not overshadow his natural propensity for perfection in every composition.
Where in the world did we come to assume that devotion will affect perfection?. Are we talking about a civilization that created languages like Tamizh, Sanskrit, Kannada, Telugu, Malayalam, Marathi, Hindi? So there was no poetic or structural or musical beauty in any previous works!. Tulsi Ramayan, hanuman chalis, Abhangs, Tamizhisai? So they are all musical retro-fits after the Trinity or what?
The invention of sangati is usually attributed to him and a mere devotee would not have thought of an invention like the sangati. Even if he was not the inventor, he structured his compositions in such a way that they not only facilitated but virtually invited sangatis from the singer
So somebody must not be a devotee in order to sing sangatis? So your idea of devotional music is what the 20th century light music productions that started selling devotional cassettes outside temple streets? Have you ever walked with a real Bhagavatar that does unchavriddhi?
Sangatis, we know, are the alphabet of creativity in Carnatic music
So Dikshitar renditions are like mozart performances? Genius composer? music-art-mozart!! So what if sangatis do come in compositions just habitually , accidentally by virtue of sAdhakam, by happenstance neurons re-arranging in the brain during sleep ? Is that still creativity? Sir Roger Penrose thinks Theorems get proved that way! Does it have any bearing on resulting beauty? Why this penchant effort to establish creativity? Do we know the thought process of Mozart? Or is this some inferiority complex that somehow Indians never had any technological advance for a while until the west came in?
He would not have taken the trouble of creating three schools of disciples if he did not want to perpetuate his music. But for this, his music might have been lost to us as in the case of Purandara Dasa, Annamayya, Ramadas and Arunagirinathar, who apparently allowed their bhakti to override their music.
So invasions, wars, people migration could not have been the causes? Oh you are writing for The Hindu!! I forgot.

So Bhakti overrides music. Bhakti is always against craft - because craft is always used to make money! How do we know that Bhadrachala Ramdas tunes are not pre-dating Trinity? I desist using the word original - because I don't consider that material in my understanding of anything Indian - suffice to know that they may be pre-dating Trinity.

tAmarasa lOcana sItA| samEtarA - sIta beautifully atItam very musical. Lot of longs and shorts. Made up after Trinity? Ananda Bhairavi belongs to Andhra aver many musicians! But forget the way it is sung - just reciting it in 8 beats tells me it is musical!

So you think if you didn't receive a written manuscript of melodic tunes - the music is lost. So everybody sings tyAgaraja perfectly in the same pattern? Do you know in Indian thought without chandas there cannot be svara?

I think I have to start singing Amma rAvamma in bilahari - just to show how great it is compared to paridAna mIccitE! Lot of svarAksharas I can still fit to boot!
In fact, there is even a view that, as a considerate teacher, the simpler compositions like the Divyanama and Utsava sampradaya kritis might have been composed by Tyagaraja for the benefit of the less talented sishyas, who may have found it difficult to master the major kritis
I still find some Dr BMK relays from Vijayawada delightful Sir - not that easily matcheable sir.

narayan
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by narayan »

Nick H wrote: 04 May 2017, 17:03
SOUTH INDIAN classical (Carnatic) music concerts are marked by a profusion of songs.
As Americans might say: what does that even mean?*
I could figure out what that means, even as an opening line. Contextually clear after reading the next couple of sentences, for sure. However, I know the author, so that may have something to do with it.

Thanks to kvchellappa for the pointer.

sankark
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by sankark »

narayan wrote: 15 May 2017, 07:35
Nick H wrote: 04 May 2017, 17:03
SOUTH INDIAN classical (Carnatic) music concerts are marked by a profusion of songs.
As Americans might say: what does that even mean?*
I could figure out what that means, even as an opening line. Contextually clear after reading the next couple of sentences, for sure. However, I know the author, so that may have something to do with it.

Thanks to kvchellappa for the pointer.
What is the typical duration of a non-CM (WCM or HM) recital? Typical CM concerts in recent times is 2h15m to 2h45m.

Ofcourse there are 45m/1h/1h30m affairs too but I am excluding them and rarely 3h+ too.

shankarank
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by shankarank »

narayan wrote: 15 May 2017, 07:35
Nick H wrote: 04 May 2017, 17:03
SOUTH INDIAN classical (Carnatic) music concerts are marked by a profusion of songs.
As Americans might say: what does that even mean?*
I could figure out what that means, even as an opening line. Contextually clear after reading the next couple of sentences, for sure. However, I know the author, so that may have something to do with it.
Quoting from the article:
Scholars have a fairly limited understanding of what concert performances were like before the advent of the trinity. Performances in the courts of kings, especially the Maratha kings of Tanjore, seem to have primarily involved elaborate renditions of single ragas, focusing on improvisational aspects. The contrast between these performances, at least what we can glean from brief descriptions in books, and what is seen and heard today is striking.
This is explained away later thus:
Unlike the earlier period, by the early 20th century, the primary source of patronage and livelihood for musicians had turned from kings and zamindars to the general concert-going public, who had to purchase tickets to performances so that musicians could be paid. One goal of musicians, then, became attracting audiences to their performances
One more quote from another thread on ARI's music:
SrinathK wrote: 27 Feb 2017, 18:48 But I agree, you can't argue with the balanced packaging, that was a masterstroke for what was then a modern age and taste. But it does mean you can't pick one dimension and explore it to it's limits in a concert.
So all of this presupposes that the audience had some prior taste of music before all of this attracting began. The article argues of patronage from zamindars and such - but we have to add for emphasis that they were the pauperized remains of the Colonial aggression after some point no longer able to patronize. And the ticket paying audiences - paying out of their pittance in a denuded country - can devote only so much time leading to curtains down sabhas and boat mail timings - so even the facility to indulge was not there!

So it was riches to rags story!

Somu in devakOTTai was still doing an all nighter there! So the folk fellows down there had a superior taste?? May be even in those formative years of sabha-dom it was movie experiences feeding into concerts as well?

So truth can vary depending on lens used.

For rags to riches alternative : Here is one.

TNS concert @ Cleveland the year he was awarded Sangita Ratnakara ( 1997 IIRC) - Sujana jivana, samaja varagamana all somewhat elaborate sedate - no effect so far, then dasarati main - the tani piece! The full hall reduced down and many of us were standing in the last row waiting to choose appropriate time to leave to Comfort Inn. People like TN Bala reminisced to some of their friends who were known to me - about their mentor MMI and how great they were and likely left the place!

He then starts sahana and many were like where did this voice come from! It was well late into the night and bhaktarukku sakanAn pallavi was in a different world. We were still standing behind the last row seats with many seats to occupy. Prof Tuttle was sitting on the steps with the organizers on the way to the side balcony ( with so many chairs available to occupy) doing kanDa tripuTa nicely! It was about midnight when the concert that began about 7:30 PM finished.

I wish with Metro rail coming up - nah - service apartments to stay nearby - I would get one such experience @ MA with some artiste of next gen sometime - with a serving of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigarthanda_(drink) at the end of it all before I head to retire about 11 PM nearby somewhere.

After all the British have left the country and we have to get to our elastic Indian ways when it comes to timings - sometime in our lives!

shankarank
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 07 May 2017, 11:07
From TMK Article:
This trend set by Tyagaraja was followed by many later composers like Muthiah Bhagavathar. While we are willing to critique 20th century composers, we forget that it was Tyagaraja who showed the way and therefore we also need to question him philosophically
Yeah SRJ Lecdem : HMB did all these new ragas sumanapriya.. this Priya, that Priya..
http://www.karnatik.com/c1724.shtml
supOshini by tyAgaraja
Aa: S R2 S M1 P N2 D2 S
Av: S D2 P M1 R2 M1 S

http://www.karnatik.com/c2162.shtml
pashupatipriyaa of HMB
Aa: S R2 M1 P M1 D2 S
Av: S D2 M1 P R2 M1 S

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_b_Cd5HEDg

With slight difference the above rendition shows that while on ascent it is all euphoric , while on descent it has a soft appeal of an expression. The first charaNam that dwells on lower sthAyi is all subtle expression. So expression can result as a consequence of aesthetic excursions as well. In fact I would say HMB brings more expression than what tyAgarAja brought in supOshini. But the proportion of expression vs. raw musical euphoria is what the alpatvA , bahulatva aspect of rasas that is explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZkNnR--tMY

Musical euphoria brings out structural aesthetics with so much of long-short variations especially in the citta svara passages ( first round after anupallavi).

That a scale based rAga could be handled more procedurally vs. a phrase based rAga more by experience hence demanding more is a method difference.

That SyAma Sastri in his dhanyAsi kriti (mIna lOchana) could pack structural aesthetics and sahitya bhava expression together in abundance cannot be the entire story of sangIta and rasa.

https://youtu.be/4ZkNnR--tMY?t=715

shankarank
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by shankarank »

Abhinava Gupta on Rasa

http://www.ikashmir.net/abhinavagupta/article4.html
Abhinavagupta though agrees to many of the suggestions put forward by Rasa theory also points at its various limitations. According to him art is not just about evoking certain feelings but a real work of art in addition to possessing emotive charge needs to have a strong sense of suggestion and capacity to produce various meanings. This is where he refers to Dhvanivada. He says that for a work of art it is not enough to be having abhida (literal meaning) and laksana (metaphorical meaning ) but it should also possess Vyanjana the suggested meaning which has absolutely nothing to do with the other two levels of meaning. Thus an aesthetic experience cannot be experienced like any ordinary mundane experience. A true aesthetic object does not simply stimulate the senses but also stimulates the imagination of the spectator. Once the imagination is stimulated the spectator aesthete gets transported to a world of his own creation. This emotion deindividualises an individual by freeing him from those elements which constitute individuality such as place, time etc. and raises him to the level of universal. Thus art is otherworldly or Alaukika in its nature.

sureshvv
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Re: CM, Kriti and Thyagaraja

Post by sureshvv »

narayan wrote: 15 May 2017, 07:35
Nick H wrote: 04 May 2017, 17:03
SOUTH INDIAN classical (Carnatic) music concerts are marked by a profusion of songs.
As Americans might say: what does that even mean?*
I could figure out what that means, even as an opening line. Contextually clear after reading the next couple of sentences, for sure. However, I know the author, so that may have something to do with it.
I think we all can understand what the words mean. Nick's point was, I think, that value judgement is being passed off as objective fact (profusion?) and Hindustani music is surreptitiously being used as a yardstick.

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