The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

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MaheshS
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The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by MaheshS »

The Hindu is doing a series of articles for Swami's 250th anniversary.

Here is one by Lakshmi Viswanathan, The state of rasanubhava.

Looking at the number of "I / My / Me" I am not sure whether this is an article on Swami or herself. Wow.

Sriram V posted the following on twitter, *maybe* alluding to this piece.

Code: Select all

The art of praising oneself while writing about #Thygaraja! Such egotism!

RaviSri
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by RaviSri »

This lady has written as if she was the first to dance to sAdinchEnE (Arabhi). It was Kamala who first danced to this pancharatna kriti. As pointed out this is not an article on Thyagaraja but on the dancer herself.

arasi
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by arasi »

He (Tyagaraja) figures in the article for sure. It all sounds more like an interview, though an interviewer missing... ;)

shankarank
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by shankarank »

Beware folks : she may have to explain all the bad things in the sAhitya including misogyny as she rests her arguments on sAhitya bhAva!

And you guys ( including V Sriram) may be considered venturing into it in your reaction to this - come out your mamadom ghetto! OK?! :twisted: :lol:

http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/m ... 384186.ece

melam72
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by melam72 »

RaviSri wrote: 05 May 2017, 18:40 dance to sAdinchEnE (Arabhi)
It is only possible to dance to Sadinchane, and, to a lesser extent Dudukugala - though it would be very difficult to depict Theliyani Nadavida Sudrulu Vanithalu Swawasa Mouda without PMK/VCK/some other casteist party rising up like a mushroom after a thunderstorm...

sureshvv
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by sureshvv »

I don't think the word is being used in a casteist sense.

melam72
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 01 Jun 2017, 16:40 I don't think the word is being used in a casteist sense.
The only way we'd know that is by asking Thyagaraja. Do you want to ask on behalf of Rasikas.org ;) ?


melam72
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by melam72 »

Oh please. I don't even speak Telugu, and I know 'kshudrulu' does NOT mean 'petty'.

sureshvv
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by sureshvv »

I dragged you to the water. Can't make you drink.

PS: "petty" as in "lowly"

melam72
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 02 Jun 2017, 10:06 I dragged you to the water. Can't make you drink.

PS: "petty" as in "lowly"
It is a matter of interpretation of the lyrics of a man who is long gone. This discussion is pointless. Let us agree to disagree.

sureshvv
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by sureshvv »

A great many people have spent considerable time analyzing and thinking and writing about the lyrics of the "man who is long gone". A good point to start will be to look at what they have to say. Sorry for chasing this pointless discussion.

melam72
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 02 Jun 2017, 10:41 A great many people have spent considerable time analyzing and thinking and writing about the lyrics of the "man who is long gone". A good point to start will be to look at what they have to say.
You may have n number of mahanubavulus analysing his lyrics, but how would you know his true intentions without asking him?

sureshvv
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by sureshvv »

It takes a lot of forensics. They look at internal consistency and usage of words and phrases across the entire body of work and come up with a reasonable guess of what the intended usage was. This is not to say that they are always right. But you will need sufficient internal evidence to counter or contradict the work that has gone on before.

melam72
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by melam72 »

sureshvv wrote: 02 Jun 2017, 11:24 It takes a lot of forensics. They look at internal consistency and usage of words and phrases across the entire body of work and come up with a reasonable guess of what the intended usage was. This is not to say that they are always right. But you will need sufficient internal evidence to counter or contradict the work that has gone on before.
You also need to remember the highly politicised, casteist context in which these interpretations arose from. To separate the context from the content is as silly as separating codeine and cough syrup because codeine is a narcotic.

shankarank
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by shankarank »

When tyAgaraja refers to certain aspect of naTa viTa kshudrulu vanitalu - he must have seen some excesses happening in that sphere - just like he must have observed excesses happening in vEdic heritage - yagnatulu, sOmitamma sogasu, mari-mantra-tantra - and he wrote negatively about both. So he is not singling out any particular tradition exclusively for criticism - and he must have been fine if all stayed within certain bounds!

Is that fair understanding? why do we need to go into semantics and mince words?

sureshvv
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by sureshvv »

melam72 wrote: 02 Jun 2017, 16:58

You also need to remember the highly politicised, casteist context in which these interpretations arose from.
These are objective exercises executed and refined by multiple people with academic reputations. I am sure they are much more careful in their analysis than your off-the-cuff pronouncements here. But feel free to believe in your own translations,

sureshvv
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 03 Jun 2017, 01:40 When tyAgaraja refers to certain aspect of naTa viTa kshudrulu vanitalu -

<snip>

Is that fair understanding? why do we need to go into semantics and mince words?
I think the debate is if T was talking about lowly character or lowly caste.

sridhar_ranga
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by sridhar_ranga »

melam72 wrote: 02 Jun 2017, 08:13 Oh please. I don't even speak Telugu, and I know 'kshudrulu' does NOT mean 'petty'.
IMO the word is basically from the Sanskrit kshudra, which has the following meanings.

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results

1 kSudra mf(%{A})n. (compar. %{kSodIyas} , superl. %{-diSTha} , qq.vv.) minute , diminutive , tiny , very small , little , trifling AV. VS. xiv , 30 TBr. iii S3Br. ChUp. AitUp. Ya1jn5. &c. ; mean , low , vile Mn. vii , 27 Ya1jn5. i , 309 MBh. &c. ; wicked (said in joke) Ma1lav. ; niggardly , avaricious L. ; cruel L. ; poor , indigent L. ; m. a small particle of rice L. [330,3] ; = %{-roga} (q.v.) Sus3r. ; = %{-panasa} (q.v.) L. ; (%{A}) f. (Pa1n2. 4-3 , 119) a kind of bee Bhpr. ; a fly , gnat L. ; a base or despicable woman Pa1n2. 4-1 , 131 ; a maimed or crippled woman ib. Pat. ; a whore , harlot L. ; a dancing girl L. ; a quarrelsome woman L. ; N. of several plants (Solanum Jacquini , also another variety of Solanum , Oxalis pusilla , Coix barbata , Nardostachys Jat2a1-ma1n6si1) L. ; (%{a4m}) n. a particle of dust , flour , meal RV. i , 129 , 6 and viii , 49 , 4 ; [cf. Lith. {kUdikis} , `" an infant "' ; Pers. $ {kUdak} , `" small a boy. "']

The word exists in Tamil too, and from the same dictionary we have: (re-spelling in italics mine)

7 kSutram (kshUdram) 1. smallness, littleness; 2. cruelty
8 kSutratEvatai (kshUdradEvatai) pett, minor deity

shankarank
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 03 Jun 2017, 12:16 I think the debate is if T was talking about lowly character or lowly caste.
Even if we take the worst possible version of this, we know how different varNas viewed each other as that has been discussed extensively in our history studies.

If Thyagaraja's usage and intent is indeed derived from how smARta network viewed the Shudras, is it any news? Any intent behind the negative view of others was to keep ones tradition intact and from people going astray especially for a ritual tradition that passes thru generations by belief and commanding respect.

This is being equated with concepts that resulted in persecution of "others". And the laughable thing is the Marxists/leftists are the one leading the discourse!

The usage of Caste whose etymological origin is Portuguese is now whenever convenient, conflated with race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta) - but now the concept of race itself is being questioned.

sureshvv
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 04 Jun 2017, 01:43 Even if we take the worst possible version of this, we know how different varNas viewed each other as that has been discussed extensively in our history studies.
I think it is better to take the best possible version. And attempt to distill a message that is appropriate for our time.

Nick H
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by Nick H »

That would be the best distillation.

shankarank
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by shankarank »

rudra - one who weeps and cries ( from root ro - weep) - also one who makes everybody cry during destruction.

Shudra - one who weeps and wails at others difficulties ( this is the best possible meaning I have heard) - in a sense that sounds better than the lord of destruction!

It qualifies for a composition with nindA stuthi theme - who knows one might be there in our corpus somewhere in thevaram tradition.

vgovindan
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by vgovindan »

I am a later comer.
The argument seems to be whether it is 'kshudra' or 'sUdra'.
From the context of the kRti, it is not 'sUdra' because the word 'kshudra' is qualified by 'naTa viTa'. It has to be taken as whole 'naTA viTa kshudrulu'.

tyAgarAja uses this word 'naTa viTa' in another kRti also 'manasu vishaya naTa viTulaku' - nATa kuranji. Here 'naTa viTa' would mean 'licentious'- note that 'naTa viTa' is a noun here (as against adjective in the earlier kRti).

Though many hold that sUdra is derived from kshudra, it is not necessarily so. purusha sUkta contains the word 'sUdra'. If the original word is 'kshudra'', then it should have been here also.

Govindaswamy
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by Govindaswamy »

Thyagaraja is using kshudrulu and SUdrula in svarasAhityas 6 and 9 respectively of the above kriti. It appears that melam 72 is mixing up the two. SUdra definitely refers to the fourth varNam referred to in purusha sUkta. The origin/source of birth mentioned there is symbolic. Humans are basically devided into four varNams depending upon the qualities inherent at the time of birth. 1) Intellectuals with high I.Q born from face, 2) People from leadership qualities with necessary strong physic born from shoulder. 3) People who collect and distribute goods to all. Earth can meet the needs of all and not the greed of few. These are born from the centre of the body. 4) People who produce all the goods and provide all the services required by all. These are born from the legs as they carry the full burden of other three. Hence sUdras are the foundations of society.
Later on number of castes evolved, mostly in the fourth varNam due to the job specialisation.

shankarank
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Re: The state of rasanubhava - Hindu article

Post by shankarank »

Govindaswamy wrote: 07 Jun 2017, 09:51 1) Intellectuals with high I.Q born from face
Intellectual - which can be sometimes pejorative - and things like IQ are known only now. May be people likely or expected to be in more of satva- should be the one probably meant by that.

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