Mozart and Consciousness

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vgovindan
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Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Mozart and Consciousness

Post by vgovindan »

I came across this quote in a paper "In the Theatre of Consciousness - The Workspace of the Mind" by Bernard J Baars.
Can someone put it in a language understood by a layman familiar with Indian Music?

"Mozart was a master of consciousness. Only a composer of the highest musical order could open the delectable Sinfonia Concertante on a single note, played by the solo violin and viola in perfect unison an octave apart, two indistinguishable sounds except for the unearthly depth of the added harmonics. One note --- think about it. Only a master could bounce madly from Leporello's low buffoonery in the first scene of Don Giovanni to the Don's botched attempt to seduce Don'Anna, a fight to the death, more clowning, and finally Don'Anna's furious cry of vendetta! --- changing mood in seconds, while maintaining a seamless flow of light and tender commentary in the orchestra --- and somehow combine all these extreme and incompatible elements into a sparkling conscious unity."

The link for the paper is -
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/25de/7 ... 676d74.pdf

Sachi_R
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Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by Sachi_R »

Sir,
I understand the first to mean that two stringed instruments, in unison albeit an octave apart, produce a profound effect of meditativeness. The effect a well-tuned tambura has, producing an ambiance of extreme resonance and meditativeness, in a quiet room, would resemble this effect, in fact it would be to my ears more impactful.
To enjoy a single note, played by two instruments, one needs to be in a quiet, anticipative, musical environment. That is like our chamber concert. I find of late, MadRasana recording and putting out music with a similar "Stimmung". Please check their website and listen.
In Western music, the basic environment of any hall I have been to is a great silence. The music emerges as a beautiful appearance in this silence.

The second one is a more complex description. I have watched Don Giovanni in the Sydney Opera. I also have the DVD. It is highly dramatic, operatic, with many characters and emotions. Mozart's operas are like our Sanskrit dramas, except I find the musical element adds infinite colour to the presentation and we perhaps have to look for such effects only in Rukmini Devi's dance dramas.

I feel our music, song, and theatre does not have the multidimensionality of western Orceshtras or Operas or Ballets. I think Sri Ravikiran is changing this by his collaborative Melharmony.

But then, all things in all worlds need not have parallels 😊

They do not have anything like our Bhakti-soaked songs. I have not seen anything so profound as this in my exposure to Western music:
https://www.facebook.com/palghatkvn/vid ... 524974279/
Please do watch the one and only KVN sing "Varugalamo."

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by sureshvv »

Sachi_R wrote: 17 Jun 2017, 08:30 https://www.facebook.com/palghatkvn/vid ... 524974279/
Please do watch the one and only KVN sing "Varugalamo."
Anyone recognize the young man on the tambura? Looks awfully familiar.

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by vgovindan »

I received the following through email from Shri Madav Muni Rao -

"Today I chanced to visit rasikas.org and read with interest your posting and seeking its equivalent expression possibility of Classical Karnatic Music.   I have attempted sincerely to give you the expression, as given below:

"In the Theatre of Consciousness - The Workspace of the Mind” by Bernard J Baars.

"Mozart was a master of consciousness”.

Composers of Karnatic Music were masters of consciousness, complete awareness, awareness of latency and potency of raga and sahithya bhavam, melody and lyrical emotions and aesthetic.

Only a composer of the highest musical order could open the delectable Sinfonia Concertante on a single note, played by the solo violin and viola in perfect unison an octave apart, two indistinguishable sounds except for the unearthly depth of the added harmonics.  One note --- think about it.

Only a composer of the highest musical order could open the delectable composition in Pallavi with eduppu svara, the jeeva svara of raga as svarakshara.

(Note: Sinfonia is Itlian word derived from ancient Greek word of symphonia for Symphony, English word.  Symphony is agreement or concord of sound)

Only a master could bounce madly from Leporello's low buffoonery in the first scene of Don Giovanni to the Don's botched attempt to seduce Don'Anna, a fight to the death, more clowning, and finally Don'Anna's furious cry of vendetta! --- changing mood in seconds, while maintaining a seamless flow of light and tender commentary in the orchestra --- and somehow combine all these extreme and incompatible elements into a sparkling conscious unity."

Only a master could traverse bhavas of hasya, Madana kama baana prayoga and Shiva’s roudra, changing bhaava’s in seconds in moorchana, while maintaining a seamless flow of lalita and sookshma tatvas in the composition, and somehow combine all these extreme and incompatible elements of udatta, anudatta and svarita svaras into a sparkling conscious unity of Nadanubhavam."

srini_pichumani
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by srini_pichumani »

VVS, Sathish (Rao) is playing the tambura. KVN's student... he moved to the US in the early 90s,

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by shankarank »

Srini, yes I thought so too. I was sitting in the front at your cousin?'s house as he sang Sri mAta Siva vAmAngE in slow pace in Columbus , OH with Vinod Seetharamam on Mridangam. I always remember the mRdangists! Not the violinists ;) . I am not sure there was one. I remember a conversation regarding him having learnt from DKJ too! To the extent that KVN used to tell him "unga DK Jayaraman pADarAram pogalaya"? :lol:

So what other example is needed than a composition where it is taken with a gamaka that touches ri ( gamakAkshara) and immediately ascends to "ma" a second one to boot - all borrowing from Sri lalitha sahasranAmam's starting SlOka!

Following up with the second phrase from the same in the anupallavi!

shankarank
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by shankarank »

Sri Govindan, here is a one note wonder we discussed in this forum ( in the HM sweet Thread) from your own cherished ones :

https://archive.org/details/01VAtApiGaN ... iDIkshitar about 1:36 into it. a N3 and a Sa.

I played this recently to a connoisseur a relative. His immediate reaction was : this one he was never tired of listening.

And another one from not so a full time vocalist ( imagine how it would have been from horse's mouth):

https://youtu.be/ZTf0bZnhtno?t=1522

Somewhere else in that he discusses the role of tone and that being a lifetime work. He also explains before this timeline why people take it from anu pallavi - a topic of discussion elsewhere in the forum.

Now the tone: which is the proportion of various harmonics in various octaves ad-infinitum - that hides the harmonic components and even the base harmonic. One other way you will get a music that does not tire anyone.

So viSrAnti is from information hiding - similar to how complex object oriented systems are put together from simpler components. A full tonal sound hides the notes ( if I deem them as kriyAs) and if kriyAs are hidden (subtled) then you get viSrAnti!

My teacher ( Smt. Sita Subramaniam who lived in IITM campus) once shared her experience of doing a tODi sAdhakam: after a while into it she was not aware which octave she was in.. I am sure that is a common experience of many deep sAdhakas.

sureshvv
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by sureshvv »

srini_pichumani wrote: 18 Jun 2017, 13:29 VVS, Sathish (Rao) is playing the tambura. KVN's student... he moved to the US in the early 90s,
Thanks. He relished the performance in total.

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by vgovindan »

Thanks for all the responses.
However, I am still unable to connect the opening sentence - "Mozart was a master of Consciousness." Is this what called 'mUrchana' by Kanchi Paramacharya in one of his discourses?

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic ... na#p309648

shankarank
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by shankarank »

The terminology of mUrchana is used in context like for e.g the pallavi sAhitya abhOgiyin madyama mUrchanaiyE valaji. So the latter refers to tonic shifts.

Hearing the Dr BMK recording varsha posted in that thread,
https://archive.org/details/ManakuVachh ... mukhiTALam

he seem to capture a more general principle of development of rAgas in his elucidation.

He quotes 2 examples: Suddha madyama in kalayAni , sAdharana gandhara in madyamAvati ( Brindavana sAranga I have heard about having G2 but not madyamAvati - as opposed to brindAvani not having it)

We heard from many lecdems - where they point out the anusavara for SankarabharaNam - N3 is there but not held clearly - but N2 is also touched upon - the latter an effect of samvAditva of gamakas around M1?

sAdhAraNa gAndhAra in madyamAvati again due to N2's gamakams?

M1 in kalyANi is from the gamakam in G3 and M1 is a prakriti svara.

So gamakams emit mUrchana svaras which are not present in the rAgam's arOhaNa / avarOhaNa but form the Adhara Sruti of another jIva svara?

Is he getting away with something ? ;)

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by vgovindan »

I received the following from Shri Madhav Munirao -

"You sought to know 'muchana' of Indian Classical Music.  
In Indian Classical music, to discover the matrix of the soul is to discover the moorchanas, the hundreds of interlocked harmonies that constitute the abstract living body of the cosmos.

Moorchana comes from the word 'moorch', referring to a fainted condition, but in this context, to harmonies that lie in an 'unconscious' or sleeping state in the subconscious until awakened and sung, when they begin to radiate spiritual bliss.

Moorchanas are harmonies that suggest the ragas explains but they also refer to routes, subconscious routes of the scale, which lie untrodden till used, when they give way to more routes, more moorchanas and more ragas.

The oldest treatise on moorchana is by Matanga Muni, who wrote his Brihaddeshi in the sixth century, in which he outlines the connectivity of jati-gayana, or pre-raga forms of the day.

It is in a very heightened state of sensitivity that a musician or listener can hear moorchanas, and not just identify the moorchana that gives birth to a particular raga, but also the point at which one moorchana leads to another or one raga to another in the throbbing, connected whole. For a musician, experiencing the joy of moorchanas is a source of constant delight, quite like experiencing visions of the moving colors of the soul itself.

The interlocked moorchanas also reflect the Cosmic Raga. When teaching a new raga, gurus often say — especially when a note is not found in it — that "it is there, but not used".

Moorchana involves turning any one of the seven notes of the scale into a basic pitch, a Sa, to get at the equidistant skeletal form of another seven notes of the saptasvaras, which also explains the inner meaning of the expression, 'the music of the spheres'."


 

shankarank
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote: 22 Jun 2017, 15:58 Quoting Munirao:
which lie untrodden till used, when they give way to more routes
The laya viSrAnti that trinity arrived at, is also in the same category ;)

Smt. Lalitha Seshadri ( a disciple of Dr. SSI and Dr. BMK ) - observed in a practice session @ Dallas temple - of tyAgaraja pancaratnAs to those assembled - "you guys sang OVK saptaratnas - more tougher to sing - so well - you are struggling with tyAgarAjAs" (as the kArvais did not align ) - she continued - " listen many times and memorize !!" - I could not but help think of this viSrAnti!

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by Nick H »

Mozart was a master of consciousness. Etc.

Discuss...
Naah... Lets talk some random stuff about Thyagaraja instead.

shankarank
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by shankarank »

If I knew something about Mozart - I would :lol: . Why don't you?

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by Nick H »

lol... Actually, I don't know much either, except that he was a prolific composer of original melodies, and that he had an extraordinary musical memory which was capable of remembering everything he heard, not only in outline, but all the parts. This, for instance, is how certain stuff performed only in the Vatican became known outside: Mozart was able to hear it, and later transcribe it exactly.

I don't know if this ability was unique to him, or if he was just unusually good at it. I think he was uniquely good at it.

So it is a bit unfair on the guy, not that he has cared for several hundred years, first to be associated, just because his name begins with M, with a purveyor of mass-produced pop, and second, to get the "Our guy is just as good if not better" treatment.

It might be true: I don't know much about Thiagaraja either :oops:. Except that he gets plenty of discussion space here anyway. Which is to be expected, of course, on a carmatic music forum.

At school, in preparation for exams, one thing was hammered into us: Read the Question. And Answer the Question. It doesn't matter how good you are: if you write about something entirely different, you will get zero marks. One teacher was a little bit more creative. Our English teacher reiterated the necessity of answering the question, with the proviso that, as long as we did, if we were clever we could talk about anything.

And now we have the internet. We have thread titles. We talk about whatever we want to talk about. Don't mind me! My second-name is Mr Off-Topic, I do it all the time!

Carry on... :) :D

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by vgovindan »

Nick,
Did I get you wrong? I did not invent the topic. The very purpose is to understand what music of Mozart was to do with consciousness. I am still confused whether the author wants to get away with what he said - as shankark has put it.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by Nick H »

Did I get you wrong?
Probably I got it all wrong. Got lost along the way!

shankarank
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by shankarank »

I think as in the case of Mozart, the ability of the conscious to emanate some underlying truths beyond the method and its display, is somewhat common in some remote obscure instances of Carnatic music as well. But it is uncommon mostly! As we seem to focus on the method due to our obsession with Lakshana. The Lakshana anxiety is primarily due to the evaporation of eco-systems that had music in the air - and our anxiety to preserve what appears to us as something that may be lost for ever!

I would tend to think western classical is also undergoing similar stress - but I am not sure!

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by shankarank »

In this concert ( posted in C.Review forum) the violin treatment shows a tinge of Lalitha in Vasanta to me? Do anybody else feel that?

https://youtu.be/TkXyPScPFjs?t=506

Is this mUrchana effect?

That ought bring back discussion to things musical .. :)

shankarank
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by shankarank »

From HM Sweet thread - a link posted by varsha - forgot to listen to it - but did now.
varsha wrote: 23 Dec 2016, 08:11 Timelessness .
Another dimension .
https://archive.org/details/TulasIDaLam ... aTyAgarAja
I hear some vakulabaraNam touches in the Alapana but N2 is not touched! mURchana effect again?. But that effect is not heard in the kriti rendition.

varsha - the metadata says bala - balasaraswathi? with T Visva on the flute?

varsha
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by varsha »

yes indeed
balasaraswathi with T Visva on the flute

vgovindan
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by vgovindan »

Is the definition of mUrchana of CM and HM same? - Here is HM demonstration of it -
https://youtu.be/eeGbMsR1N6Y

shankarank
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by shankarank »

If mURchana is the king or the queen ;) of rAgA expression , then that at least settles bhairavi as an authentic rAgA , a janya of naTa Bhairavi! KHP as somewhat contrived :P , and bEGaDa solidly in SankarAbharaNam camp! So we kicked off the sadas now ;) :lol:

Also explains why bhairavi is a pURva prasiddha rAga.

varsha
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Re: Mozart and Consciousness

Post by varsha »

yes indeed
balasaraswathi with T Visva on the flute
https://archive.org/details/Bala_vocalConcert
FULL CONCERT

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