Losing voice?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Losing voice?

Post by Nick H »

Bottom line: performing is a dangerous business. It is full of repetitive strain injuries and other occupational hazzards, from deafnes to loss of voice, via physical disability.

thenpaanan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Losing voice?

Post by thenpaanan »

Wonderful and eye-opening article. Every singer and aspirant should read and take good heed. The abuse of vocal chords by pop singers is quite obvious if you listen to them belting out. But I did not know this extended to operatic singers as well. I assumed they knew what they were doing. The story of Julie Andrews should be a cautionary tale for our singers if they are paying attention. Even someone as capable as Andrews can develop nodules in her voice box (perhaps due to over-singing?).

I had previously only focused on male singers but of late I listen to find even the top female singers like Sudha Raghunathan, Sowmya, or Nityashri whose voices are completely unbearable. In spite of all these problems with singing, we are yet to hear of a single singer who has decided to take a break from concert singing to heal their broken voice. I am told that people like Ananth Vaidyanathan have counseled some top singers to take a rest but they don't listen. I don't know Ananth personally and I don't know who these singers are but the story is consistent with what we see on stage. If you listen carefully you will notice that many of our accomplished singers camouflage their inability to hold a note with various gimmicks -- if they are challenged they will probably tell you that holding a note is not necessary in Carnatic music. I wonder if anyone tells these singers the truth about their voices. Are they surrounded only by sycophants (and disciples) who never say anything critical?

-T

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Losing voice?

Post by SrinathK »

@thenpaanan, One thing I have noticed with nearly all of today's musicians is that their voices tend to go hoarse at a rather young age, especially the ladies - it's almost like there's now a permanent phonatory gap (probably caused by a vocal nodule) that's causing that husky sound.

When I hear the music of MS or MLV or KVN, T Brinda & Mukta, ARI, MMI, (and I could add many more), despite the punishing grind of the concert tour, one thing that stood out is that their voices didn't go hoarse and neither did they lose their resonance. Why my own grandmother at 80 could drown us all out with a single note that might have been heard down the street. I can't do that without very good resonance or shouting.

Is it possible that our present day musicians worldwide touring and concertizing is putting much more mileage on their voices (that combined with jet lag and the dehydration on flights, etc. and the resulting impact on the immune system) than ever before? Or has all this crooning we see today caused it?

thenpaanan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Losing voice?

Post by thenpaanan »

SrinathK wrote: 26 Aug 2017, 01:33 @thenpaanan, One thing I have noticed with nearly all of today's musicians is that their voices tend to go hoarse at a rather young age, especially the ladies - it's almost like there's now a permanent phonatory gap (probably caused by a vocal nodule) that's causing that husky sound.
This is indeed an observation that I have heard from multiple quarters. I hope it is not due to nodules but the fact that it is so widespread is certainly cause for concern. I have some thoughts on why below.
SrinathK wrote: 26 Aug 2017, 01:33 When I hear the music of MS or MLV or KVN, T Brinda & Mukta, ARI, MMI, (and I could add many more), despite the punishing grind of the concert tour, one thing that stood out is that their voices didn't go hoarse and neither did they lose their resonance. Why my own grandmother at 80 could drown us all out with a single note that might have been heard down the street. I can't do that without very good resonance or shouting.

Is it possible that our present day musicians worldwide touring and concertizing is putting much more mileage on their voices (that combined with jet lag and the dehydration on flights, etc. and the resulting impact on the immune system) than ever before? Or has all this crooning we see today caused it?
1. Singers of yesteryear sang as loudly as they could. Even if you have other bad habits singing full throttle can save your voice to some extent. My impression is that singers today sing very softly for whatever reason. Why are they so shy? Perhaps they are taught to do so? Even the contemporary 'jAmbhavAn' female teacher-singers such as the two Suguna's do not sing full throttle. Compare this to the situation in HM or even folk music, Yakshagana, etc.
2. Singers today are singing far more diverse songs with all sorts of subtle and nuanced phrasings that can take a toll on your throat. So it might be just a different selection of songs/repertoire from previous generations. Current fashion (and audience demand) is that the singer who knows the most number of kritis wins.
3. Previous generations worked out a unique value proposition for themselves. A given singer would figure out what they were good at and stick to it. Nowadays it seems singers want to do everything -- fast/slow, kritis/padams, pallavis, swarams, etc etc and that can be hard on a voice to cover all of them. Plus not having a narrow focus means that rather than delivering a few pieces perfectly you settle for delivering a wide variety in a mediocre fashion. Voice culture is all about paying close attention to details -- every note/syllable/breath of every rendering.
4. To my ears, there is a huge increase in the amount of gamakam used by our singers today compared to the recordings of yesteryear. I've come to believe that the way Carnatic singers sing gamakam is wrong from the perspective of voice mechanics. We use too much throat to control the complex inflections and modulations and not enough diaphragm (and this is true even of our previous generations). Hindustani musicians (not that they are perfect) approach gamakam singing very differently. Over a decade or more of singing heavy gamakam-laden performances our voices simply give up.
5. Highly sensitive microphones pick up every flaw in the singing and this makes singers pull back their voices lest they make some mistake that gets amplified. This half-way holding back of your voice does not permit the voice to rest and so the voice apparatus is getting more tired than one realizes.

Of course, all this is pure speculation on my part. I may be completely off-base here, who knows? The sad part is that ALL our top-level singers are faced with this situation of failing voice and so there is no way to make a comparison between singing techniques to see what works and what doesn't. It would be nice if some top-level singer acknowledged the problem openly and submitted to some kind of methodical investigation of the phenomenon. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

-T

SrinathK
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by SrinathK »

1. Singers of yesteryear sang as loudly as they could. Even if you have other bad habits singing full throttle can save your voice to some extent. My impression is that singers today sing very softly for whatever reason. Why are they so shy? Perhaps they are taught to do so?
It's modern city life with these small apartments and closely spaced houses to blame. If an old school singer sang in one of those, everything else would have to come to a grinding halt, not just in their homes, but also at least half the block. Like a bathroom, the house makes you think you're singing much louder than you really are, with the result that what is getting cultivated is an indoor voice that can't project outdoors. What we now need is a sound proof room with an intercom.

I also feel crooning too much all the time has the same impact on the cords as singing falsetto. My ENT (when I was facing throat issues due to gastric reflux) asked me to sing softly and found that the vocal cords couldn't close fully (Hence I mentioned that problem above, I've had it, with no mileage whatsoever on my voice). While I haven't been really able to do anything to strengthen my voice since it broke, at least the recurring throat infections stopped.

Next time I'm going to put an audio sample of a varnam rendered in 2 speeds by at least 2 different singers -- I've slowed the 2nd speed down to half to compare it and the results are rather surprising -- the 2nd speed doesn't sound like the 1st at half speed. Basically the difference is that at higher speeds, the voice never really has any time to hold on to a note (the best singers maintain swarasthana shuddham much better, but in comparison to the 1st speed, it's still markedly less) -- the problem gets more severe with age when the voice loses a certain amount of agility. Also every note is slightly clipped (there is a noticeable staccato pause). This especially so while singing swaras.

On the contrary, the first speed when sped up 2x doesn't sound like the second either. It's too heavy, to many anuswarams and gamakas coming in.

Even more surprisingly, it's not only true for voices. Even on violins, heavy gamaka phrases at high speed mean that no note is held long enough for the bow to remain at the ideal contact point and let the instrument get into a resonance. Even Western violinists don't quite generate the same effortless power at speed which they do in slower phrases (that requires too aggressive bowing, which in turn turns the sound scratchy).

thenpaanan
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by thenpaanan »

SrinathK wrote: 26 Aug 2017, 11:33
It's modern city life with these small apartments and closely spaced houses to blame. If an old school singer sang in one of those, everything else would have to come to a grinding halt, not just in their homes, but also at least half the block. Like a bathroom, the house makes you think you're singing much louder than you really are, with the result that what is getting cultivated is an indoor voice that can't project outdoors. What we now need is a sound proof room with an intercom.
That would be ok as an excuse for amateurs. But for professionals? Top-level teachers?
SrinathK wrote: 26 Aug 2017, 11:33
I also feel crooning too much all the time has the same impact on the cords as singing falsetto. My ENT (when I was facing throat issues due to gastric reflux) asked me to sing softly and found that the vocal cords couldn't close fully (Hence I mentioned that problem above, I've had it, with no mileage whatsoever on my voice).
I have noticed that we Carnatic singers are much more likely to be singing snippets of classical music under our breath than others. I have never heard western classical singers hum or croon like we do while doing chores. I dont know what impact it has on the voice box but it is a potentially interesting cultural angle. It is probably true that the cords don't close properly in these situations because we don't support the voice enough. Support for the voice is supposed to happen as a reflex action whenever we sing but I guess that only happens if you are trained to do so.
SrinathK wrote: 26 Aug 2017, 11:33 Next time I'm going to put an audio sample of a varnam rendered in 2 speeds by at least 2 different singers -- I've slowed the 2nd speed down to half to compare it and the results are rather surprising -- the 2nd speed doesn't sound like the 1st at half speed. Basically the difference is that at higher speeds, the voice never really has any time to hold on to a note (the best singers maintain swarasthana shuddham much better, but in comparison to the 1st speed, it's still markedly less) -- the problem gets more severe with age when the voice loses a certain amount of agility. Also every note is slightly clipped (there is a noticeable staccato pause). This especially so while singing swaras.
I have noticed this too. In my view this comes down to training. The best trained singers will almost always hit the right frequencies at any speed. When I recorded and listened to myself I found I was (very) lazy in the fast passages. But one should also account for psychoacoustics -- the gap between what is actually sung and what the brain perceives as being sung differs at different speeds. So slowing down/speeding up the tape may not create a true reflection of what is heard, nevertheless it is a worthy experiment.

SrinathK
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by SrinathK »

SrinathK wrote: ↑26 Aug 2017 11:33
Next time I'm going to put an audio sample of a varnam rendered in 2 speeds by at least 2 different singers -- I've slowed the 2nd speed down to half to compare it and the results are rather surprising -- the 2nd speed doesn't sound like the 1st at half speed. Basically the difference is that at higher speeds, the voice never really has any time to hold on to a note (the best singers maintain swarasthana shuddham much better, but in comparison to the 1st speed, it's still markedly less) -- the problem gets more severe with age when the voice loses a certain amount of agility. Also every note is slightly clipped (there is a noticeable staccato pause). This especially so while singing swaras.
I have noticed this too. In my view this comes down to training. The best trained singers will almost always hit the right frequencies at any speed. When I recorded and listened to myself I found I was (very) lazy in the fast passages. But one should also account for psychoacoustics -- the gap between what is actually sung and what the brain perceives as being sung differs at different speeds. So slowing down/speeding up the tape may not create a true reflection of what is heard, nevertheless it is a worthy experiment.
I was actually looking into that for a different reason. In no other system of music does the voice have to spend so much time (and at such high average speeds) in what happens between the notes than stay on the notes itself (this includes even HM as for the most part the artistes sing at slower speeds and use plain notes for the faster bits -- the only time they actually really give their voices a big shaking is when they sing akharas). What wear and tear that can cause in the long run when the gamaka technique is too strained is something we all need to be concerned about.

Now that article on the vocal problems faced by many western vocalists comes down to three things -- way too much power and pushing too hard beyond one's range and doing stuff like screaming hoarse and all....

CM musicians also have jam packed schedules. HM musicians I hear make it a point not to give too many performances at a given time.

Also voice actors face these exact same problems as well -- probably even more so because many of them have to voice multiple characters and they speak and scream, not sing (if you ask me, making non-musical sounds is even more damaging on the cords), and many of the best ones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Blum) perform well into old age.

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/culture/ ... ng-health/

SrinathK
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by SrinathK »

Here's an excellent video from Dr. SAK Durga - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WusofkoMEQ&t=1059s

Apart from all the detailed points she makes in the video, just note that old school resonance in her voice and her absolutely seamless bridge from chest into head voice (she hits the ati tara Sa at 71 like it's nothing!)

She also demonstrates the differences between thinning the voice by singing more softly at the higher pitch vs falsetto vs fully resonant singing.

I myself have tried the transition by singing very slowly and focusing on the change of resonance as you transition between registers -- when it's done correctly, it sounds on the mic like one continuous register. The trouble is that when you're doing brighas or gamaka laden phrases, this is much harder to do. Sometimes you feel like just going back to chest voice and pushing hard (you can't tell the difference on the tape, but the feeling in your throat definitely will tell you you're trying to belt the notes).

If you place one hand on your throat and the other at the correct resonating point, you can tell where exactly the voice wants to transition. This move also tells you all the bad habits you're doing.

The cords sometimes can't maintain their position and the register breaks abruptly, for which the only solution is to sing slowly. Also the brighas don't come with the same "weight" and manueverability as they do in chest voice, but this is definitely due to a lack of practice, a lack of mastery over the mixed voice, and several years of trying to hit the upper notes with chest voice as a teenager. HM musicians and quite a few CM musicians do it all the time.

The thing is, no matter what you do, your chest voice range is limited to 2 octaves or at the most 2 and a half (this is true for almost everybody). Anything more than this and you can be rest assured that someone figured out how to bridge the gap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh2H4wubJIY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Uc5GmNTUo

thenpaanan
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by thenpaanan »

SrinathK wrote: 01 Sep 2017, 10:28 Here's an excellent video from Dr. SAK Durga - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WusofkoMEQ&t=1059s

Apart from all the detailed points she makes in the video, just note that old school resonance in her voice and her absolutely seamless bridge from chest into head voice (she hits the ati tara Sa at 71 like it's nothing!)

She also demonstrates the differences between thinning the voice by singing more softly at the higher pitch vs falsetto vs fully resonant singing.
I would have liked to have met her in person to hear how her voice sounded -- you cannot trust audio recordings to do justice to resonant voices. I have seen this video and I also have purchased a DVD where she teaches in student-teacher format on various habits and methods of practice. This particular video is ok as far as introducing the idea goes. But, with all due respect, I was disappointed in the DVD -- her insights in the DVD are quite ambiguous and her directions somewhat vague if you compare them to the huge number of very precise instructional videos on singing technique that you find today on Youtube. However as the only instructional video on singing technique in Carnatic music at this level, Smt Durga's DVD is without anything else to compare with and thus it is both pioneering and inspirational in spite of the drawbacks.
SrinathK wrote: 01 Sep 2017, 10:28
I myself have tried the transition by singing very slowly and focusing on the change of resonance as you transition between registers -- when it's done correctly, it sounds on the mic like one continuous register. The trouble is that when you're doing brighas or gamaka laden phrases, this is much harder to do. Sometimes you feel like just going back to chest voice and pushing hard (you can't tell the difference on the tape, but the feeling in your throat definitely will tell you you're trying to belt the notes).
Register breaks are a well known challenge for singers, especially male singers. Only a few gifted individuals manage to do without it entirely. Bade Ghulam Ali Khan was the ultimate master of multi-octave singing without register breaks, with BMK being a close second. But there are many others who are/were able to sing without a noticeable break. For example, in his prime Balaji Shankar could race up and down past not one but two register breaks smoothly like a hot knife through butter. But in my experience if you are not gifted that way, it takes a huge amount of effort, especially if you like me have awakened to the problem after decades. I have not been able to master the register break(s) at all.
SrinathK wrote: 01 Sep 2017, 10:28 The cords sometimes can't maintain their position and the register breaks abruptly, for which the only solution is to sing slowly. Also the brighas don't come with the same "weight" and manueverability as they do in chest voice, but this is definitely due to a lack of practice, a lack of mastery over the mixed voice, and several years of trying to hit the upper notes with chest voice as a teenager. HM musicians and quite a few CM musicians do it all the time.
This is a very complex topic that even seasoned musicians have trouble with. But our particular problem is that many of our traditional (hence required) kritis do not our voices the space to adjust -- they many a time just sprint up the octave and stay at some high note with an impossible-to-sustain syllable (and you really have no flexibility of choice) -- and an average singer like me is just left frustrated.

So we have a very curious combination of having many compositions that really require a huge amount of voice training to deliver properly and a total lack of voice training pedagogy. How both these facts happened together in the same tradition is a total mystery to me. There are many other vocal traditions around the world that do not place these kinds of harsh demands of vocal acrobatics and so their singers can focus on other aspects of performance. Not us.

-T

SrinathK
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by SrinathK »

@thenpaanan, CM is enormous in every dimension. I feel there is simply not enough time in a life (or a few) to have it all ... earlier you did have musicians who were specialists in a particular dimension, but the demands on today's musicans are higher than it has ever been. They need to make their mark fast and young, get a grip on just about everything, cross continents, gain big repertoires of ragas and talas and compositions, master tough RTPs, sing plenty of manodharma , give multiple performances a day, and somehow find time for training and resting their voices too. If the last generation had to see styles come together, this generation needs to work with completely different genres as well.

Perhaps it's all too much. After all, there's only so much that you can subject your body to... and then there's always that dreaded acid reflux. My ENT told me it's widely prevalent amongst singers in particular.

And as far as musicians go, if I wanted to draw the line of caution somewhere, it would be the age of 50. It is what 30 is to a sports athlete. Once you reach this point, sustainability becomes crucial. Your body isn't going to be what it was as a teenager when it felt indestructible despite all that you threw at it. After 50, your chances for a repetitive stress injury are higher. Technically, a musician begins to go off their peak at this point (it could begin even a few years earlier). While their performances in absolute terms may still be gold standard or just below their absolute peak, you do notice that the days of over-revving that engine aren't possible or advised anymore (I know a few names who've lost their voices doing so). It's however, very much possible (health and circumstances permitting) to enjoy a sustainable level of performance well into the 70s. Around 80, assuming you're fortunate to be still around, the body just begins to go right over a cliff.

So let's look at all the musicians who kept their voice going strong for long. What do they do differently?

R K Srikantan comes to mind. He has said that diet was important, he strictly avoided tobacco and alcohol and even very cold stuff and felt that the optimum time between performances is 2-3 days (that's a luxury that few can afford, but it's worth making the point).

thenpaanan
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by thenpaanan »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00xmHu2bC6U

In this lec-dem on the occasion of the 125th birth anniversary celebration of Ariyakudi Ramanujam Iyengar held at Narada Gana Sabha Mini Hall
on 24-May-2015, Sri A Venkatesan says at 70 years age ARI went to perform in Mumbai when he was asked by Raj Kapoor how we was able to sing like he did that age. ARI apparently replied that this was just the way of his music, that he did not do anything special for his voice.

I would like to know what rasikas think are the key parameters of ARI's voice technique. All the recordings I have heard are of ARI in his later years where I perceive his voice as shaking and a shade flat. This might very well be a flaw in my hearing or it may be that this does not truly represent ARI. Nevertheless I was hoping to hear a shade of this in Sri Venkatesan's singing but I could not. In fact I hear the shaking voice that I hear in the ARI recordings. Effortless singing is one the things that Sri Venkatesan extolls as ARI's brand but I hear labored singing here.

Could knowledgeable rasikas hear explain what are the hallmarks of ARI's voice technique that Sri Venkatesan is hailing? And do you hear it in this performance?

What I am after is the understanding of what the ideal singing voice is supposed to be in CM. If such vidwans feel that ARI had great singing technique then it is incumbent upon voice students like me to learn with as much clarity as possible what the critical characteristics are. Each culture has its own ideals in voice and so does CM, but so far we only have very general descriptions of that ideal.

-Thenpaanan

SrinathK
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by SrinathK »

Regarding ARI, his voice always had that shake in it and sometimes he hit some notes sharp and very rarely, a bit flat (it's almost as if his voice was susceptible to a wolf note if he pushed it). But in his peak, his tone was remarkably rich and he never pushed his voice to the limit of his range. He was a pre-brigha era singer (and his voice was on the heavier side, so while it was brisk, it wasn't supersonic).

Here's a recording from 1963 : https://soundcloud.com/user461654480/ka ... a-vandarul - if the year is correct, ARI was 73 in this video. TNK and PMI are on the violin and mridangam

This whole album has some remarkable vintage ARI stuff...

There is in fact a description of all the detailed characteristics of a good voice

A) Natyashastra

Sravaka - Projecting or carrying power
Ghana - Strong, clear tone without instability -- specifically it could also refer to "wolf notes".
Snigdha - Power without harshness
Madhura - Pleasingly sweet even in the highest frequencies
Avadanavan - Well balanced, isn't excessively or exclusively loud or weak. It could also refer to the ability to vary the tone from softest to loudest
Tristhanasobh - Melodius in all 3 octaves

B) Sangita Ratnakara:
Tara (sweetness in the high octave notes)
Anudhvani (Rich on account of harmonics)
Madhuryam (sweetness)
Raktih (attractive)
Gambhiryam (full bodied, powerful)
Mardavaih (beautiful)
Ganata (rich)
Kanthih (smooth and bright )

They are also free from the various defects of poor voices, such as nasality and unbalanced harmonic content (inharmonicity), harshness and feeble presence.

The characteristics of the best musical instruments are all based on the ideal voice and contain all the above features. They would probably be the best demonstration of the voice. The violin especially, as it was designed after the ideal concept of a human voice.

uday_shankar
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by uday_shankar »

thenpaanan wrote: 09 Sep 2017, 02:06What I am after is the understanding of what the ideal singing voice is supposed to be in CM.
There's a deep fallacy in that statement. One can take up any voice and sing the CM appropriate to that voice. This is true even of well-worn kritis, not just the manodharma portion. To take two extremes, MDR and Brindamma sang the same kritis, completely differently, each enjoyable in its own way. How can there be one kind of "ideal" voice ? Also, I am sure each of these composers - T, MD, SS, OVK, etc... had distinctive voices and composed according to it...It is well know Patnam Subramania Iyer sang brikkas while Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer did not...

The whole notion of looking back at "shastras" to find out what is ideal is complete nonsense. The Natya Shastra was written 2000 years ago. CM as we know it evolved in the last couple centuries that too mostly in the 20th century.

VK RAMAN
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by VK RAMAN »

Nick H wrote: 11 Aug 2017, 22:11 Bottom line: performing is a dangerous business. It is full of repetitive strain injuries and other occupational hazzards, from deafnes to loss of voice, via physical disability.
Due to sickness and change of medicine added with Acid Reflux, I am going through hoarse voice and taking speech therapy at the University School of Medicine. It can also be one of the reasons for losing voice though not permanently I guess.

thenpaanan
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by thenpaanan »

uday_shankar wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 12:59
thenpaanan wrote: 09 Sep 2017, 02:06What I am after is the understanding of what the ideal singing voice is supposed to be in CM.
There's a deep fallacy in that statement. One can take up any voice and sing the CM appropriate to that voice. This is true even of well-worn kritis, not just the manodharma portion. To take two extremes, MDR and Brindamma sang the same kritis, completely differently, each enjoyable in its own way. How can there be one kind of "ideal" voice ? Also, I am sure each of these composers - T, MD, SS, OVK, etc... had distinctive voices and composed according to it...It is well know Patnam Subramania Iyer sang brikkas while Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer did not...
I quite agree that there does not need to be one ideal voice in the sense of exclusiveness. What I mean is a general sense of that ideal and basics of singing, not the more complex things like singing gamakas or brighas.

One note of caution though. It is generally a bad idea to use famous/successful people as a way to justify exceptions to any rule, rather these exceptions only highlight the rule. Almost everything that is mentioned in any standard description of "good" singing is violated by any number of stalwarts. Even a simple rule such as singing aligned to shruthi at all times is violated constantly. However we would not say that singing in shruthi is optional, would we?

I like your formulation of the question better. How does one say/determine if one is singing CM "appropriate to one's voice"? How is it that MDR is among the very very few who sing/sang in a low shruthi, with a deep voice, with a slow gait? Is that simply a matter of esthetics or do you need to have been born with a certain kind of voice to sing like that? How does one decide if MDR's style is appropriate to one's voice? Does CM discourage singing like that? We see a huge number of contemporary singers trying to emulate the Brinda style of singing for a variety of reasons -- is that just a style thing or does it interact with the kind of voice you have? Does one sing brighas based simply on one's taste or are you limited by the voice you have, or even more advanced can you/should you change your singing technique to sing brighas as opposed to singing gamakas?

But leave all that aside. If we are to teach our young students anything at all, what should we tell them about how to sing? Alternately, what would be able to say is a definite no-no. How do we teach in a way that goes from being merely aspirational ("you should want to sound like me or my guru") to actually operational ("this is what you should _do_ to sing properly").

And how about this inverted question -- any given person can sing in infinitely many ways, how does one determine which voice to sing in that would be appropriate to CM?

-T

thenpaanan
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by thenpaanan »

VK RAMAN wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 18:45 Due to sickness and change of medicine added with Acid Reflux, I am going through hoarse voice and taking speech therapy at the University School of Medicine. It can also be one of the reasons for losing voice though not permanently I guess.
Sorry to hear this. I hear that a lot many of our younger CM singers that are also suffering from gastrointestinal reflux. I dont know it is just a matter of better diagnosis or better awareness or some change in our lifestyle that is causing this upsurge. I suspect that if the reflux remains untreated (for a long time), at some point the damage will become permanent. But the awareness that reflux can affect your voice significantly is now there and increasing in the professional singer population. However it is not clear what options are available (other than medication) that would be compatible with the lifestyle practices of the singers.

-T

thenpaanan
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by thenpaanan »

SrinathK wrote: 09 Sep 2017, 00:25 @thenpaanan, CM is enormous in every dimension. I feel there is simply not enough time in a life (or a few) to have it all ... earlier you did have musicians who were specialists in a particular dimension, but the demands on today's musicans are higher than it has ever been. They need to make their mark fast and young, get a grip on just about everything, cross continents, gain big repertoires of ragas and talas and compositions, master tough RTPs, sing plenty of manodharma , give multiple performances a day, and somehow find time for training and resting their voices too. If the last generation had to see styles come together, this generation needs to work with completely different genres as well.
There is another issue that may have snuck up on us which is the widespread availability of high fidelity microphones and amplification systems. Now audiences can clearly hear every rasp and flutter in the voice. Some of these problems were very much present in previous generations but the audiences were somehow more tolerant of them, perhaps because they could not hear the flaws so vividly.
SrinathK wrote: 09 Sep 2017, 00:25 Perhaps it's all too much. After all, there's only so much that you can subject your body to... and then there's always that dreaded acid reflux. My ENT told me it's widely prevalent amongst singers in particular.
Again, I wonder if it is that reflux has become more prevalent today than before or that the rasp that is introduced into the voice because of reflux is much more audible and noticeable now.
SrinathK wrote: 09 Sep 2017, 00:25 So let's look at all the musicians who kept their voice going strong for long. What do they do differently?

R K Srikantan comes to mind. He has said that diet was important, he strictly avoided tobacco and alcohol and even very cold stuff and felt that the optimum time between performances is 2-3 days (that's a luxury that few can afford, but it's worth making the point).
This is an excellent point. Let's learn from those who seem to be doing it right. I don't know Sri Srikantan personally but listening to his concerts brings out a few points that stand out distinctly in his case. The first and most significant aspect in my mind is the volume that he generated even at his age. Many if not most of our septuagenerian singers can barely be heard but here was this man in his 80s who was able to belt it out with apparent ease. I suspect that the effortless manner in which he did this especially in the high register was because he was able to exploit his head resonances very well. This has two salutary effects -- one is better reach/throw of the voice and the second is less strain on the vocal cords, which no doubt helps in sustainability. The other aspect of his singing is that he rarely changes his delivery of his kritis from one performance to the next. This allowed him perhaps to relax and focus on delivery. When we are experimenting with new sangatis on stage (a la TNS) we cannot focus easily on being relaxed (unless you have practiced it since childhood and has become second nature) -- once or twice is ok but as a pro performer if you do this repeatedly and hours on end your voice will eventually show the effects. That said, one cannot say that RKS sounded good overall. There was a certain roughness that would show up in his voice very often -- his admirers would call it "muscular" singing. But he was nevertheless miles ahead of the rest in the aspects I outlined above.

-T

SrinathK
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by SrinathK »

thenpaanan wrote: 13 Sep 2017, 00:14
SrinathK wrote: 09 Sep 2017, 00:25 @thenpaanan, CM is enormous in every dimension. I feel there is simply not enough time in a life (or a few) to have it all ... earlier you did have musicians who were specialists in a particular dimension, but the demands on today's musicans are higher than it has ever been. They need to make their mark fast and young, get a grip on just about everything, cross continents, gain big repertoires of ragas and talas and compositions, master tough RTPs, sing plenty of manodharma , give multiple performances a day, and somehow find time for training and resting their voices too. If the last generation had to see styles come together, this generation needs to work with completely different genres as well.
There is another issue that may have snuck up on us which is the widespread availability of high fidelity microphones and amplification systems. Now audiences can clearly hear every rasp and flutter in the voice. Some of these problems were very much present in previous generations but the audiences were somehow more tolerant of them, perhaps because they could not hear the flaws so vividly.
Speaking of this -- I've heard recordings (in live concerts, where the violin is accompanying) bringing out every scratch of the bow on the string to the extent that some violins seem to be producing scratch than sound! (It sounds like metal grinding on metal). It makes their violins sound like junk. Even a freshly over rosined bow, bowing right on the bridge would struggle to do that.

You may be amazed to know that sitting next to the same violinist at home, your ears would not hear that noise (and even if it is there, not nearly that much) -- I've myself played with a handful of terrible violins and even in 1st person I don't remember them being that scratchy (tin cans they were, but not nails against the chalkboard). I noticed many violinists bowing extremely softly with the mic so close to the bow that a staccato might result in a mic impact -- those mics are far closer to the bridge than any human ear.

And that's also the weird thing with today's mics -- you have to get within swallowing range of them before they start working, even moving an inch away from them causes drastic loss of amplification. Such extremely close mic-ing is not acoustically favourable in any way.

A friend once told me why those mics have that foam windscreen on them -- being so close to the mouth, the air movement can create hissing and crackling noises and the foam is there to stop that. But I've never seen that get used (I am not aware whether it is recommended or not for the mic models used in CM concerts).

Someone clearly set the settings from 14 kHz and beyond way too high, perhaps hoping to get that husky sound in film music? I'm only making a wild guess... but there is nothing in CM, not even the tanpura, that produces such high harmonics.

thenpaanan
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by thenpaanan »

SrinathK wrote: 09 Sep 2017, 10:57
There is in fact a description of all the detailed characteristics of a good voice

A) Natyashastra

Sravaka - Projecting or carrying power
Ghana - Strong, clear tone without instability -- specifically it could also refer to "wolf notes".
Snigdha - Power without harshness
Madhura - Pleasingly sweet even in the highest frequencies
Avadanavan - Well balanced, isn't excessively or exclusively loud or weak. It could also refer to the ability to vary the tone from softest to loudest
Tristhanasobh - Melodius in all 3 octaves

B) Sangita Ratnakara:
Tara (sweetness in the high octave notes)
Anudhvani (Rich on account of harmonics)
Madhuryam (sweetness)
Raktih (attractive)
Gambhiryam (full bodied, powerful)
Mardavaih (beautiful)
Ganata (rich)
Kanthih (smooth and bright )

They are also free from the various defects of poor voices, such as nasality and unbalanced harmonic content (inharmonicity), harshness and feeble presence.

The characteristics of the best musical instruments are all based on the ideal voice and contain all the above features. They would probably be the best demonstration of the voice. The violin especially, as it was designed after the ideal concept of a human voice.
The challenge with these descriptions is that they dont even remotely help you understand what they mean. It is like describing the color "blue" without using the color ever. At least in that case one can say like the color of the sky and even though the sky has all kinds of colors, not all of which are blue and not all kinds of blue are represented there, at least one can have some kind of idea of what blue means. In these descriptions I can get just the bare minimum -- not harsh, uniform across the range, powerful/strong. Most of the characteristics are quite ambiguous or at least quite fungible. (On an aside, there is no mention of alignment with sruthi, perhaps that came in the post-ratnAkara phase.) Perhaps that is it should be. Maybe the notion of what is considered "good" in any art form moves with the times.

One test of these descriptions is to ask the question -- do the vast majority of contemporary CM singers of a certain minimum standard (pick whichever works) have a majority of these characteristics?

-T

SrinathK
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by SrinathK »

thenpaanan wrote: 14 Sep 2017, 02:50
SrinathK wrote: 09 Sep 2017, 10:57
There is in fact a description of all the detailed characteristics of a good voice

A) Natyashastra

Sravaka - Projecting or carrying power
Ghana - Strong, clear tone without instability -- specifically it could also refer to "wolf notes".
Snigdha - Power without harshness
Madhura - Pleasingly sweet even in the highest frequencies
Avadanavan - Well balanced, isn't excessively or exclusively loud or weak. It could also refer to the ability to vary the tone from softest to loudest
Tristhanasobh - Melodius in all 3 octaves

B) Sangita Ratnakara:
Tara (sweetness in the high octave notes)
Anudhvani (Rich on account of harmonics)
Madhuryam (sweetness)
Raktih (attractive)
Gambhiryam (full bodied, powerful)
Mardavaih (beautiful)
Ganata (rich)
Kanthih (smooth and bright )

They are also free from the various defects of poor voices, such as nasality and unbalanced harmonic content (inharmonicity), harshness and feeble presence.

The characteristics of the best musical instruments are all based on the ideal voice and contain all the above features. They would probably be the best demonstration of the voice. The violin especially, as it was designed after the ideal concept of a human voice.
The challenge with these descriptions is that they dont even remotely help you understand what they mean. It is like describing the color "blue" without using the color ever. At least in that case one can say like the color of the sky and even though the sky has all kinds of colors, not all of which are blue and not all kinds of blue are represented there, at least one can have some kind of idea of what blue means. In these descriptions I can get just the bare minimum -- not harsh, uniform across the range, powerful/strong. Most of the characteristics are quite ambiguous or at least quite fungible. (On an aside, there is no mention of alignment with sruthi, perhaps that came in the post-ratnAkara phase.) Perhaps that is it should be. Maybe the notion of what is considered "good" in any art form moves with the times.

One test of these descriptions is to ask the question -- do the vast majority of contemporary CM singers of a certain minimum standard (pick whichever works) have a majority of these characteristics?

-T
I put that up since you asked. :D Well obviously sound is not an experience to be transmitted by word - words are just pointers. However, I can find violins for you that meet the description (there's a link below)

My experience of listening to other genres is very limited - but to me it sounds like a certain vocal timbre is expected out of you for a particular genre of music (to the extent that different singers sound really similar) while in Indian music, it permits quite a wide range of vocal timbres (again maybe if I was born and brought up to that music, my ears might find all HM musicians sounding similar).

In classic CM, excessive crooning or vibrato or things like fade or surge effects (esp in the middle of a gamaka -- BMK is famous for his fading glides), too much lyric emphasis (I call those "hammering the lyrics") causing melodic discontinuity, makes it over the top or 'light', even artificial very easily.

Now coming to the hissing or husky noise -- it may not actually be a voice problem but rather an artifact of close mics. What is just with the mics of today that you have to hold them inside your mouth lest you lose amplification? And holding it that close, I'm sure that's where the hiss and scratch comes from. I made the point in my previous post -- but it seems like you can't use a foam windscreen with those models, or can you?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7o2n6j7Qytc/U ... HISHEK.JPG

This is how far they used to keep them before - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrZGTcwp_I4 (The hiss is the poor recording quality)
or at least so far : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs058bYKzzM && https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn8kR4qZXGE

And this is as close to mic-less as you get : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmlNJJ8YHuw&t=263s (I know I'm deviating, but listen to just the slow movement in the opening part of the video where the violin plays solo. That violin has almost all those characteristics of a good voice you can imagine - and that's compressed Youtube audio).

So regarding the ideal voice, you have the instrument trying to match the capabilities of the voice and the voice learning from the capabilities of the instrument.

Nick H
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by Nick H »

The foam covers on microphones ere meant to reduce the impact of the plosives... eg in English, the P, B, T sounds that produce a short burst of energy. The most extreme way that mics are misused on the carnatic stage is by clapping near them: an every day example of how nobody, including the performers and the so-called sound men, understand the tools of their trade.

There is, as far as my limited knowledge of the technology goes, nothing special in the way of mics on the carnatic stage. I have a Shure microphone that I used to use when playing morsing: it just happens to be the right shape not to get in my way. It was probably slightly more expensive than is seen in most halls, but is not at all in a totally different quality or technology league (well, there probably are some really cheap and bad ones about). The thing... Anything special, when it comes to microphones, costs a lot. Really a lot. Had the experience of playing in that absurd London Millenium Dome back in 2000. One of the technicians mentioned the cost of the mics they were setting up in front of us: it was three figures in GBP, so tens of thousands of rupees. Those tiny clip-on mics, which is what I believe that vocalists should use to remove their bad microphone technique and ignorance from the equation, are three-figure-GBP.

Amazing how nothing has changed in simple common-sense view of voice since the texts quoted above. Well, wait, no it is not amazing: we are still the same creatures with the same anatomy! What is amazing is how recognition of them has, apparently, vanished from the CM musical consciousness.

(Sorry about the British Pounds, but I have no experience of pricing this stuff in Indian Rupees. It is probably a lot more.)

thenpaanan
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by thenpaanan »

Nick H wrote: 14 Sep 2017, 13:45 The foam covers on microphones ere meant to reduce the impact of the plosives... eg in English, the P, B, T sounds that produce a short burst of energy.
hence the name "pop covers"?
Nick H wrote: 14 Sep 2017, 13:45 The most extreme way that mics are misused on the carnatic stage is by clapping near them: an every day example of how nobody, including the performers and the so-called sound men, understand the tools of their trade.
CMians like the clapping to be extremely loud, perhaps because the musicians are splitting extremely tiny time intervals and they want to make sure the intervals do not slip.
Nick H wrote: 14 Sep 2017, 13:45 There is, as far as my limited knowledge of the technology goes, nothing special in the way of mics on the carnatic stage. I have a Shure microphone that I used to use when playing morsing: it just happens to be the right shape not to get in my way. It was probably slightly more expensive than is seen in most halls, but is not at all in a totally different quality or technology league (well, there probably are some really cheap and bad ones about). The thing... Anything special, when it comes to microphones, costs a lot. Really a lot. Had the experience of playing in that absurd London Millenium Dome back in 2000. One of the technicians mentioned the cost of the mics they were setting up in front of us: it was three figures in GBP, so tens of thousands of rupees. Those tiny clip-on mics, which is what I believe that vocalists should use to remove their bad microphone technique and ignorance from the equation, are three-figure-GBP.
I just bought myself some mic's and was astonished at how the price really jumps when you want anything better than the basic Shure 58 (the one you see in the overwhelming majority of pictures). Even a wireless mic that does not promise better quality but merely freedom from mic cables is ten times as expensive, leave alone the more sophisticated products.
Nick H wrote: 14 Sep 2017, 13:45 Amazing how nothing has changed in simple common-sense view of voice since the texts quoted above. Well, wait, no it is not amazing: we are still the same creatures with the same anatomy! What is amazing is how recognition of them has, apparently, vanished from the CM musical consciousness.
It may be that these texts represent some individual's view who happened to write them down. We don't have any evidence that these texts had any wide following in practice.

-T

Nick H
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by Nick H »

Pop covers.... thought you were talking about people "covering" each other's songs for a minute... then I got it. Yes indeed! :D

And yes to the prices. And not really, ok, maybe, sometimes, to the clapping... but they can still avoid the mic. Or the sound man can, for instance, turn down all the other mics during the thani. Maybe even in vocal/violin solo bits. If you have ever seen this done by an actual pro sound engineer (I guess you may well have done, but probably not in Chennai) you'd be amazed how much difference it makes. How much blurring is happening from those mics that are not actually being used! Tricks of the not set-it-and-forget-it guys.

SrinathK
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by SrinathK »

Now, if I wanted to talk about overuse / misuse leading to damage of the vocal cords (and I am saying this strictly from a technical view), Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer and Madurai Somu would be prime examples.

From the other thread discussing BMK and Somu, there's a video where TVG describes just how hard it was that Somu often sang overnight and then performed again in the next town during the day and then even the next night.

Somu fans do forgive me (I am also a Somu admirer. Just listening to one of his concerts where every number was as long or longer than than the major items of the standard 2.5 hour concert itself requires some stamina from the rasika....). One day when I have listened sufficiently to his music, I'll write about it. He's unequalled when it comes to action, imagination, emotional intensity and as far enthusiasm goes, he was a man possessed once he got going. That was what defined his music, not these academic technicalities. But I'll just discuss his voice usage.

There was another thing in those old school voices. Powerful and strong in the upper and middle octave with a distinct "bell like" timbre, many of them however didn't have a lower range. We see the opposite phenomenon today (weaker upper octaves, weak timbre lacking the "bell metal" resonance, a certain inability to generate overwhelming emotion by vocal power as a result, but lots of range down).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GgRRaN_sQ8 -- That's Somu.

Of course, other voices like TR Mahalingam, did have a huge range down low also. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2klpOa4SlU

That vocal power came in handy, it did 3 quarters of the job of generating intense feeling in your rendition for you.

Not having any range down in the lower octave (or losing it) is IMHO the most significant sign of over straining the voice and damaging the vocal cords. Even during the course of a concert or a practice session, one can observe that the voice shifts up higher and higher in singers and the lower octave becomes a bit harder to access. In the case of old school singers, they had to belt it out, and over time that led to a permanent loss of range in the lower octave.

SrinathK
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by SrinathK »

Maharajapuram Vishwanatha Iyer did lose his voice somewhere (he was a high tenor of a singer in his youth, singing at F# !). He got back most of it, but recordings (the catch is that all these recordings were taken when he was quite old) show that his lower octave was gone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB6itjvsa7Y

But at the end of the day, vocal strain or not, the power of those old school voices was magnetic. Now-a-days I can only find the best characteristics of those voices from Strads and Guarneris or a well played nagaswaram (I heard one multi-raga alapana played to perfection once in the Srinivasa temple at Singapore, I can tell you I felt myself melting, the thrill it sent through your system...). That's intensity for you...

Now one singer I can tell you really has this problem today is TNS. No disrespect meant to his vidwath in any way, but I've heard his concerts live for years now, and it's been getting worse.

And then there are those who are struck by the lightning of sheer misfortune, only in this case the loss of range tends to happen in the upper octave accompanied by a "broken" tone (it literally sounds broken, as if the vocal cords simply can't stay together anymore). Neyveli Santhanagopalan had that issue -- he just lost it in the upper octave and when I heard him once at IITM and having heard him when he was in his prime, I feared the worst -- he was just barely able to sing. He's got a lot, lot better now, most of his range is back, although that upper octave isn't the same again. Then there's Rajkumar Bharati, who sang effortlessly and still wasn't spared. And since thenpanaan mentioned Balaji Shankar, he was another victim.

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday ... 380409.ece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoarse_voice (I didn't know the voice could be affected in so many ways)

BMK (senior) was as far as I am aware of, the only one whose voice never betrayed his age up until his very last days. But even he by that time, had started singing whole stretches entirely in plain notes, and that might have been his secret. I tell you, with all those brighas and gamakas and madhyamakala moto perpetuo passages in CM, sometimes silence and singing only plain notes can do wonders to help your voice recover. It is also why the greatest playback singers have had such a long peak as well.

Semmangudi, in an effort to get back his voice after it broke, admitted that he overstrained and damaged his vocal cords permanently. Voice breaking can be quite an agony for men. I had classmates with strong speaking voices whose throat just went bland and husky when it broke. I'd even go on to say that difficulties adjusting to the new voice can unintentionally lead to a plethora of incorrect habits during this period.

For a few years, not only is your voice not in control, the tone absolutely sucks. It's as bitter as black coffee with no sugar. I had it terrible at that time - I couldn't hit a note in the upper octave without disaster and my newest friend could never be convinced to believe I could sing a note right. Eventually, if all goes well, the control comes back, then the range (I've got 7 notes more range now, 2 of which are up there and have helped me reach high again, and my shruti's a step higher now), but the tone probably won't mature till you're in your mid 30s. Despite this, I still think my voice is not what it was before it broke. I also started suffering from those acid reflux and other issues only after it broke, never before, I wonder why.

rajeshnat
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Re: Losing voice?

Post by rajeshnat »

SrinathK wrote: 18 Sep 2017, 00:05
Somu fans do forgive me (I am also a Somu admirer. Just listening to one of his concerts where every number was as long or longer than than the major items of the standard 2.5 hour concert itself requires some stamina from the rasika....). One day when I have listened sufficiently to his music, I'll write about it. He's unequalled when it comes to action, imagination, emotional intensity and as far enthusiasm goes, he was a man possessed once he got going. That was what defined his music, not these academic technicalities. But I'll just discuss his voice usage.
When you write a long post(for sure it is going to be great) on Somu please post it in somu thread
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=159

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