Losing voice?

[chintalapudi]

Does anyone know of Indian classical vocalists losing their voice? I have heard of Kishori Amonkar struggling with voice issues when she was in her twenties. Does anyone have personal experience with losing their voice for any length of time? How did you recover and what precautions do you take now?

Speaking of my own experience, I have occasionally lost my voice due to over-singing. In the past I recovered in a few days, but I am currently in a slump that has lasted about a week. The voice is stiff and I am unable to execute simple gammakas. I am wondering if it is time to worry I may never get it back!

[melam72]

Rajkumar Bharati lost his voice, which forced him to stop performing and focus on composing...

This was permanent, by the way.

[Nick H]

True, but hardly encouraging, especially to a new poster asking for help. I don't know the details, but I think that Rajkumar Bharati had a specific medical condition. It is not that he sang too much or in a way that damaged his voice --- although I suspect that this this does happen to some singers.

chintalapudi, welcome to rasikas.org.

First things first. Visit an ENT-specialist doctor.

Wishing you well

[chintalapudi]

Thanks Nick! Yeah, I fear it is time to get it looked at by a professional.

I must admit I am not quite a newbie -- I have been a long time lurker at rasikas.org. I think it is a great resource for Carnatic music and look forward to doing my bit to contribute to the community.

[Nick H]

[Sivaramakrishnan]

History of carnatic music has a few of stories on voice loss and recovery.
Chembai Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar had this traumatic experience and was cured of this by the grace of Lord Guruvayurappan in the form of a great Ayurvedic physician of those times- Vaidyamatom Valiya Narayanan Nambudiri who suggested Chembai to take the Prasada thailam (oil) of the temple for a cycle of days. And Bhagavatar- a great devotee of Guruvayurappa-regained his sonorous voice.

[Purist]

What are the general reasons or causes for voice loss? Is it possible to assess conditions preceeding loss of voice?

[Nick H]

My guess would be that, among singers, it is stress, strain, misuse, and general mistreating the machine. And that could include singing exactly the way they have been taught to sing.

But ENT... Medical degree + speciality years. Probably better than my guess

[Sivaramakrishnan]

A very cold weather, drinking very cold water, walking under hot sun for a long time, throat infection due to contaminated water/food, abrupt use of voice at a loud volume/pitch (eg. raising slogans or singing at a high pitch), continuous talking especially amidst noise, presence of allergic substances in the surroundings etc are the common reasons for temporary voice loss.
Negative emotions of a person also affect voice.

[Purist]

... And that could include singing exactly the way they have been taught to sing.

I couldn't get this. I thought singing exactly the way taught till honed to perfection was good practice,
and creativity (manodharmam) to come up later to that. I guess your context was quite different.

Singing at a pitch not conducive to the texture of one's voice, I think could cause damage .

Thanks Nick and Siva.

[Nick H]

I thought singing exactly the way taught till honed to perfection was good practice

The artist, the audience, may perceive perfection. The vocal cords may perceive stress.

Carnatic music, excepting a few who have researched it, is, according to my small view, not very hot on the technicalities of voice production and voice care. It is basic to performing arts in much of the world, but not here.

I think it is not only my theory: it has been discussed quite a lot over the years.

[ganesh_mourthy]

when you strain your vocal chords it gives you a warning as it may ache. If you goes on in spite of it , it is not good for the vocal chords. It is as simple as that. Listen to the warning. An occassional brief strain is OK to reach some difficult phrases , but then you shoudl find a way out to see if that can be done with less strain with less intensity and slowly build on it until it comes out effortlessly.

[asangeetha]

Its important to monitor the mechanism of producing sound right from the beginning when one learns the basics, because incorrect techniques last for a life time and it becomes tough to navigate as the demands of the system become more intricate.

The practice of holding shadjam as long as possible with a pleasing tone is a litmus test to how good the voice can function. Being able to stand on notes with a good open tone is fundamental and many skip these basic exercises and go to speeds before they are ready.

There are many exercises out there but at the end of the day one has to persevere, analyze and rectify the issues by taking the time to observe oneself. I have also found that over enunciation, incorrect or stiff jaw movements and refusal to give into the lighter voice mechanism lead to issues in the ability to traverse ranges easily. Its also important to keep the body upright but not too stiff. Tension anywhere in the body directly affects the voice.

Many singers have had issues with voice but some have worked hard to overcome. Others continue to brute force their way but voice can only handle strain for so long before giving away completely. If there's pain or difficulty, its a good idea to stop whatever you are doing and slowly fix the issues before continuing in the same way.

[eesha]

Straining of voice leads to 'trauma' - inflammation of vocal chords (laryngitis).

An ENT specialist may want to examine the vocal chords using endoscopy. This is a painless exercise which done after administering a mild anesthetic spray. During examination, you will be asked to utter some vowels to see ow the vocal folds behave. The whole exercise may also be videographed by the doctor.

The first line of treatment is COMPLETE voice rest for 3-5 days. This means, NO sound is to be produced, not even sound of clearing of throat

Some ENT specialists may prescribe steriod tablets, which gives quick short term relief , though steroids are know to suppress immune system.

The permanent solution is voice therapy. The ENT may refer you to a voice therapist who will teach you some exercises and tips (making vowel sounds or ascending pitch sound combined with breathing exercises, right posture to have your head when you go to higher pitch, keeping your larynx moist etc)

The above written from personal experience of similar condition for my daughter.

[thenpaanan]

Carnatic music, excepting a few who have researched it, is, according to my small view, not very hot on the technicalities of voice production and voice care. It is basic to performing arts in much of the world, but not here.

I think it is not only my theory: it has been discussed quite a lot over the years.

Quite so. In all my interactions with Carnatic vocalists the attitude on the technicalities of voice production have included the following (actual quotes). I have organized them for your convenience into the six stages of grieving (for those who prefer to categorize).

1. <SHOCK> "What is there? Our elders have shown the way. We have to follow. If it is not coming properly for us it is our mistake only." (You have to intone it the right way to get its effect. )

2. <DENIAL> "All this voice production and all is fuss and nonsense. If you sing properly nothing bad can happen."

3. <ANGER> "All these vocalists having trouble with their voices in recent years is because of bad living. Smoking, drinking liquor, I don't know what all they are doing."

4. <BARGAINING> "When you cannot sing well you simply cannot blame your voice for it."

5. <DEPRESSION> "I heard that Western music has all this voice culture and everything. But using that for our music is like mixing pasta and uppuma! Why would you want do that?"

Only two responses in a sample of 20 or so were reasonable:

1. <ACCEPTANCE> "We should learn from Western singers. What is the harm? But I don't know of a single singer who actually does that."

2. One famous Carnatic singer actually told me he is taking (paid) vocal lessons on Skype from a Western coach he found from Youtube.

-Thenpaanan

[rshankar]

Thenpaanan,
Priceless!!

[arasi]

Yes, Ravi. Thanks Thenpaanan! I say so without as much as clearing my voice. Oh, bad for my singing

[shankarank]

Thenpaanan, first answer this! At anytime including all the spool tapes we hear in your opinion , did any of the hard core Carnatic musicians ( certified by Mylaporedom) have a voice culture that is acceptable to you? And name a few if you will ! And start from the days of available recorded music not before

[Nick H]

Maybe it is not so much about what we can hear as about what the singer may be doing to themselves.

Better use of lungs, throat, etc can certainly lead to a better voice, but misuse does not necessarily lead to a bad one. And, ask the audiophiles... There is such a thing as euphonic distortion: it's not right but it sounds nice.

This is not black and white. Many current artists are going to sing until they die (wishing them long life). Perhaps the current microphone dependency might even facilitate that. Did anyone ever attain their voice by whispering?

[Nick H]

Posted in wrong thread...

Not even clearing the throat, eh? Just letting it stay gunged up with phlegm

Surely that can't be good. Can it? I don't know. Is there an ENT doc here would care to comment? Well... perhaps not. Any medical man care to help us out here? Their the ones with the "I'm not a doctor" look firmly fixed on their faces.

"Err, excuse me!"

"What, me?"

"Yes, you. the one who forgot to take the stethoscope from your neck!"

Wrong thread, Nick?

"I'm not a doctor" look firmly fixed on their faces.

That sounds like me on flights, unsuccessfully, I might add!

Indeed! Shifted here now. Thanks

[arasi]

Nick,
I'm losing my voice after seeing your threatening icons, ahem, even after clearing my voice

I remember reading a long time ago that vigorous clearing of the voice often while singing can affect your singing...

[Nick H]

I remember reading a long time ago that vigorous clearing of the voice often while singing can affect your singing...

I'm sure that that is not the only vigorous thing that can affect the voice. Some of the people who try to fling their heads off their shoulders as they sing may find out!

[thenpaanan]

Thenpaanan, first answer this! At anytime including all the spool tapes we hear in your opinion , did any of the hard core Carnatic musicians ( certified by Mylaporedom) have a voice culture that is acceptable to you? And name a few if you will ! And start from the days of available recorded music not before

I have said this in a different thread. Voice culture is very very hard to ascertain just from casual listening. It is impossible to know for sure from recordings and artificially amplified sound. The basic goals are straightforward. Your voice must have effortless quality to it (whether the act is actually effortless is for the singer to know), it must be resonant with overtones in as wide a range as possible (recordings and amplifiers interfere with this), and it must be strong (not necessarily loud but "well-supported"). Then there are secondary and (in my mind) less important attributes but which interact with the above three goals such as vowel/consonant enunciation, breath control, clarity of the note, two-octave range, etc.

Different singers have different strengths and these criteria are just my personal opinions. Ultimately the only universal metric of music is that the musician and the listener enjoy the interaction of sound and by that metric voice culture or anything like that does not matter at all. With these caveats I would offer the following.

1. Effortlessness: the supremo of this quality was Madurai Mani Iyer without a doubt. His voice sounds like velvet. Other people who were not quite as good but formidable in their own right: GNB, MLV, and many many others. MSS to me sounded effortless in Meera but in her classical concerts she always sounded like she was putting in quite a bit of effort in the singing. Similarly DKP. MLV on the other hand would effortlessly swoop and deliver. Brinda sounded effortless most of the time except strangely in some padams that have stretched notes. Ramnad Krishnan was another puzzle. The most unusual case is TVS. He appears to be singing like MMI but on the effortless aspect he is not even close. I have heard TVS live and while he has a very resonant voice he sounds like he is shouting. There are plenty of singers like SSI, Alathur brothers, etc who quite deliberately sound anything but effortless. TNS is a great example. In the modern day Abhishek (as also Kunnandi BMK) is the card carrying effort-laden singer. Sanjay in the few concerts that I heard seems to be fighting with his voice. There is something attractive too about that kind of robust singing but one wishes there was more variety there. TMK seems somewhere in the middle.

2. Resonance: Resonance is the biggest component of what makes a voice sound beautiful. Again MMI was the supremo here. BMI was the only other male king of resonance. Both of them could produce a sound that was resonant no matter what -- any part of the octave, at any speed, on any day. Among the women MSS reigned in the resonance dimension but her voice for movies was more resonant than elsewhere. Sometimes she could produce spell-binding resonance (e.g. the opening measure of bhAvayAmi gopalabAlam in many of her recordings), but then she would lose it as she hurried up into the higher range. GNB also sounded good but the funny thing is that GNB sounds very resonant in some recordings and not others whereas MMI sounds resonant no matter what. I have never figured out why. MDR was very resonant in most but not all recordings. I cannot figure out if it is the fault of those recordings. The "Parvati" recording on youtube is a good example of resonant singing. MLV was very unreliable. The early Nityashree sounded very resonant. DKJ sounded very resonant but only in the lower half of the octave (listen to him in the beginning of "ekkAlatilum" in nAttaikurinji). Conversely KVN and SSI were spectacularly resonant in the higher part of their range but completely flat at other places. So also Madurai Somu. ARI was supposed to have a very resonant voice but none of the recordings that I have heard bear this out. This may be because the recording technology was primitive, the recording environment was poor, or ARI was quite advanced in age. Of the singers from yesteryear only those who wanted "sowkhyam" in their voice would have even bothered. So scratch the Alathurs and such, they did not even seem to want to sound sweet. But take the case of Brinda/Mukta. Given their style I think they could have been more resonant than they were, I think this simply was not they paid attention to specifically.

Of all the attributes, resonance is the one in which our singers seem to fall very short (to be concrete, in comparison with Western or Hindustani singers). In my estimation this is in a big way due to the preference for the grammar of the music rather than the practice of the music. With the huge emphasis on rhythmic intricacies, compositions that habitually run up and down the octave unmindful of the constraints of the human voice, and the need for speed, the requirement of a sweet sound takes a very low priority. We are all about "vidwat" after all. With few exceptions, our contemporary singers pay all the attention to hitting the notes correctly (shruti shuddham) more than previous generations, maybe because they have seen how some of the older generation singers completely lost their shruti control over time. To get resonance however you have to do other things besides, such as pay attention to the shape inside your throat, create the "facial mask", etc. But no one seems to pay attention to generating the sound with good resonance. Pick almost any singer in the current crowd and this seems true. I suspect it is because of use of microphones. It is the same reason I think Palghat Mani Iyer refused mic's for his mridangam. Amplified sound can clip frequencies at the high and low ends of the sound and mar a beautiful sound while making a weak sound stronger. It is possible that our singers have pretty much forgotten what a mic-less voice sounds like. Curiously enough I occasionally come across singers who show flashes of a resonant voice such as Saketaraman or Sankaran Namboodiri. Vijay Siva had excellent resonance in his concert this year in Phoenix whereas last year not so much (perhaps he was unwell). TMK used to sound very flat early in his career but his resonance has improved tremendously in recent years. I don't know if it is a conscious thing that he has worked on or it just happened without knowing. He has never talked about this particular aspect of his music!

3. Well-supported voice: Of the three this is the hardest to describe and impossible to call out without close hearing. It has to do with the physics of the vocal chords and the simplest way to explain it is that you need to maintain a constant pressure upwards on your vocal chords from your lungs to keep them from falling down all the way in between notes. One way (perhaps the only way) to achieve this is to do the diaphragmatic singing that Western teachers recommend. This technique is hard but it is essential to keep your voice from breaking down in old age (or earlier). The kind of singing that we see typically in Carnatic music is throaty singing -- it is easier to control the voice to create the subtleties that we want to produce in our gamakams but in the long run it ruins your voice, including the other two aspects of singing that I have listed above. The lack of support in a voice is easier to detect than its presence. Stressful or strained singing at high pitches, breathy singing, singing in low volumes (that then get amped up), etc are all indications of this lack. Since it is difficult to know how well-supported a voice is over electronic media it is actually quite difficult to learn/teach this over Skype. If I have to venture a guess Ranjani-Gayathri seem to sing with well supported voices though I cannot be sure since I have never heard them live. In the older generation I would guess that the generation of ARI would have had no choice but to have a well-supported voice. Without a mic you cannot project your voice without diaphragmatic support. Slightly later, BMI was the king of well-supported voice. He never sounded like he was reaching for a note, but perversely would do all kinds of acrobatics to introduce strain artificially in his voice. The fact that MMI maintained that velvet voice of his all through his life suggests to me that he had a well-supported voice too. Brinda/Mukta would sound strained in the higher octaves suggesting that they were not always well-supported.

Now a few examples that cut across these dimensions. Voleti -- he was effortless in his singing and probably had great resonance (cannot tell from recordings) and he sounded well-supported but there was a strange effect in his voice as if he was trying to hold back his voice from flying free. Nedunuri -- resonant voice, mostly effortless singing, and on a good day could produce that magic. Chembai - resonant singing but not quite effortless. I suspect he strained his voice too much (or perhaps he just sang too many concerts without giving himself enough rest). KVN -- he imbibed some of the old ARI type singing that stood him in good stead all through his career. But curiously his lower notes did not have the brilliance of his upper notes (e.g. the beginning of the viribONI varnam). MDR was the rare someone who seemed to have cared about resonance very strongly, but by making his voice very dark and mangling pronunciation he reduced that resonance significantly. His varugalAmO is a perfect example of how to sing. Santhanam -- he was obviously effortless and quite resonant even if overly nasal. But he did not support his voice well which made him very breathy sounding. Using a lot of air in your voice is another sure way of damaging it. Finally Tanjore Kalyanaraman -- I felt he brutalized his voice unnecessarily in the pursuit of something that was neither pretty nor achievable. Like TNS his imagination ran miles ahead but over-intellectualization can be a problem. One can be simple and scintillating at the same time, no?

I should add that it is of course possible to completely ignore all of the above and still sing magically. I have heard beggars on Indian streets who have completely moved me with their singing and I have listened to Western operas that made my hair stand on end even though I had no clue as what they were singing about. MMI was the king of voice but no one knows how he did it. So the wonderful magic of the human voice continues to remain a great mystery for me.

-T

[uday_shankar]

Brinda/Mukta would sound strained in the higher octaves suggesting that they were not always well-supported.

They were gamaka "maximalists". Brindamma practically altered her voice to facilitate that extraordinary flexibility. That probably comes at the expense of being "resonant".

At the other end of the spectrum was MMI...a gamaka minimalist if ever there was one. Gamaka minimalism helps in maintaining a resonant voice through the range. Of course, the voice has to support that in the first place. Kumar Gandharva was also a meend minimalist but given his physical disability, his voice wasn't resonant. But he still did amazing things. Again, KVN was another gamaka minimalist. In spite of that his voice wasn't resonant like MMI. And as you say, while TVS copied MMI effective, he did seem like "shouting" in the upper octaves.

In general, it is better to modulate the voice in the upper octave to minimize the "shouting" effect. Brindamma, of course, was the queen of this kind of modulation. Ramnad Krishnan used to try to do that...but came across sounding awkward...Puzzle ?!

[uday_shankar]

Another point about MMI...

It is generally mistakenly held that extremely gamaka-laden phrasing brings out the raga swaroopa better...quite to the contrary I don't know of anybody who could bring out the raga swaroopa, in a purely Carnatic way, like MMI. Even ragas like Yadukula kamboji or Devagandhari. Todi, Bhairavi, etc are of course legendary. SSI could never bring out the essence of Todi like MMI could for example.

[shankarank]

Of all the attributes, resonance is the one in which our singers seem to fall very short (to be concrete, in comparison with Western or Hindustani singers). In my estimation this is in a big way due to the preference for the grammar of the music rather than the practice of the music. With the huge emphasis on rhythmic intricacies, compositions that habitually run up and down the octave unmindful of the constraints of the human voice, and the need for speed, the requirement of a sweet sound takes a very low priority.

Well if CM artistes do fall short - and HM and western artistes do provide that, why would you not be fulfilled by listening to those genres? Have you pondered over that? To ask that more deferentially - in case I sounded little harsh asking that - what other "musical" value is there that CM is going to provide if assuming all of these attributes are there in one of our musicians? Lets not get into meaning/pronunciation of lyrics, emotion, devotion etc. at this point!

To get concrete on where I am going with this:

Vijay Siva - a resonant voice you say. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbrSRaeST-c . The composer has provided kArvais galore like no other along with well positioned short syllables that could be compressed. Sometimes a composition's greatness has to be judged based on what it does to the artiste than what the artiste does with it. Almost an earthquake out there. Every kArvai is made syllabic. vara nAradAmSudDai - how much space is there to stretch , relax , savor and then catch up?!. Is this because of too much focus on diction or just the general singing style? CM gets created and destroyed like particle-anti-particle pair in vacuum.

His rendition style suits some compositions like SubramhanyO mAm rakshatu - but does not bring out the music in many others!

A voice not worth mentioning these days did justice : https://youtu.be/J2d-v5PKvvo?t=700

In this duo side by side - if you set aside the fact that one has a ringing voice and other more subdued, it is clear that one (Prasanna) has had training with a golden era teacher - just by the sheer exquisiteness of time signatures. https://youtu.be/K-xdsFCE6b0?t=958

Compositions aside even exquisiteness in Alapam left with last of the mohicans like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0OD5ZZSXJ4

[thenpaanan]

Well if CM artistes do fall short - and HM and western artistes do provide that, why would you not be fulfilled by listening to those genres? Have you pondered over that?

Indeed. This is exactly the response I got from most Carnatic singers.

The "If you want voice then go there, why are you bothering us" sort of sentiment (the retort actually sounds much more picturesque and funny in Tamil but hard to transcribe) surprised me at first. I thought I would have pricked their professional pride by suggesting to these singers that they were somehow not as good as someone else in their craft. But instead I got this "pasta and uppuma" kind of analogy. To each his own I guess.

Some people really want shruti shuddham. Others care less about it but care about rhythmic brilliance. Yet others want good diction or a mellifluous sound. I, for one, would really like to hear Carnatic music with everything done right. But that is just my prejudice and preference.

-T

[Nick H]

Sounding good is one thing, looking after self is another. I have quoted before one not-quite-young artist who told me that she was learning about using her voice because she wanted to still be able to sing when she was 80.

[arasi]

It's good to know that, Nick!

With the gift of a lovely voice, range and facility, why did I not think about a vocalist in our own rasikAs (artistes) circle?
Suryaprakash

[thenpaanan]

To get concrete on where I am going with this:

Vijay Siva - a resonant voice you say. ... Sometimes a composition's greatness has to be judged based on what it does to the artiste than what the artiste does with it. Almost an earthquake out there. Every kArvai is made syllabic. vara nAradAmSudDai - how much space is there to stretch , relax , savor and then catch up?!. Is this because of too much focus on diction or just the general singing style? CM gets created and destroyed like particle-anti-particle pair in vacuum.
His rendition style suits some compositions like SubramhanyO mAm rakshatu - but does not bring out the music in many others!

I am in a state of incomprehension about your comment here but I will try to respond -- my belief is that proper voice technique is independent of these considerations. In fact the voice technique lessons that I have seen always encourage very emphatic enunciation of the syllables (the so-called "BBC announcer speaking technique") and those teachers would not be fazed either by compositions that have a high density of syllables (my favorite example is bhOgIndra shAyinam) or long vowel compositions such as varnams. What Vijay Siva does is his own thing and more power to him for paying attention to proper sound. But no one is perfect.

A voice not worth mentioning these days did justice : https://youtu.be/J2d-v5PKvvo?t=700

One thing to remember is that voices are not created equal and some of our voice problems are not self-inflicted but what we are given and have no choice about. The intelligent thing is to know how to manage with the voice we are given. MMI for that matter had in many ways a commonplace voice relative to a GNB or Chembai. But what he did with that voice was pure genius. For example he stayed away from the more muscular singing technique that was the norm for his generation (and made him stand apart) -- you can barely hear his talam in his recordings or elaborate kanakku that can take a toll on your voice when you stretch your breath beyond your support -- contrast that with a GNB or SSI or ALathur! So MMI's singing technique must have been an active choice on his part and there was a certain risk in singing very differently from the norm. I greatly admire him for that self-belief in his technique and approach to singing.

A big challenge for us in this regard is the near-obsession in our pedagogy with the ends rather than the means. When it comes to voice production we focus only on "sounding" exactly like our teachers/elders.

-T

[shankarank]

In fact the voice technique lessons that I have seen always encourage very emphatic enunciation of the syllables (the so-called "BBC announcer speaking technique")

Teaching is something that can happen according to its own rules! Lakshana is to be employed there only. You are in fact looking for a certain lakshana that will help. I am not concerned about how that happens. But what happened to sAdhana afterwards - where new truths are to be found and good from the environment is also to be assimilated?

and those teachers would not be fazed either by compositions that have a high density of syllables (my favorite example is bhOgIndra shAyinam)

Will give you an example from right that one! There is a Trivandrum pATam - or Andhra pATam - I am not sure as the singer was from Trivandrum and her latest teacher that lead her to arangETram is from Andhra - that I heard very recently - | (2) puruSham SA | Svatam - SASvatam is taken pre-beat!!! None of the versions from SSI to Sanjay to Rama Varma - that I could find this. SASvatam is on the beat in all of the latter ones.

That such a pATam exists proves to me that this is a musical value held across the spectrum , across regions! This is no rhythmic brilliance , but just a subtle point about how kArvais can be employed to increase the musical subtlety.

Again I cannot myself listen to a music that is away from Sruti too much - and as a person who spent his adolescence imitating KJY, you don't need to try too hard convincing me regarding a good appealing voice.

MMI ...For example he stayed away from the more muscular singing technique that was the norm for his generation (and made him stand apart)

Yes, I hear just the 5 minute kritIs like nijamarmulanu that makes me go into goose bumps and trance! Every syllable he emits kArvais if only the space allows!

contrast that with a GNB or SSI or ALathur

I don't need to wait for kaNakkus and kutcheri crafts of ALathur. As they begin Emani nE nI mahima.. I am dumbfounded by the measured placement of syllables! And there is another .. there was one recording that I have been trying to locate - I heard it once not sure youtube or elsewhere, as they prepare to sing enduku niRdaya , PMI taps a few to check Sruti and starts his amukkal - and that is no amukkal - no need as they are absolutely sure of it already - the first few strokes put me into a trance! And I even go into tears! Who can do this in the first moments of a song?

[Nick H]

You are talking about something different.

I knew a silversmith once. He was an amazingly skilled guy, but the way he used some of his tools was actually horrible! For instance, he would apply pressure on the backward stroke of a file as well as the forward stroke. An apprentice in any branch of metal work would be kicked for that. None of that is relevant to the person buying, or even just admiring, his product. The product is perfect. But perhaps some of his tools might last longer, and even work better, if he maintained the discipline that he must have learned as an apprentice.

When we talk of singing, the tool is part of our body. Files, saw blades, etc, can all be replaced --- but our lungs, vocal cords, voice box, throat, cannot: once worn out they are worn out for ever.

[shankarank]

This has to happen two ways. We have to zero in down to what are some of the core values of musical expressions in CM tradition that need carried forward and devise new ways of training to achieve those. Then we can remove the dead wood , that causes voice strain - but does not provide significant value. Lot of times in the name of one I see lot of something else getting lost!

It is important that we build sustainable rasikatvam around these values as well. If rasikas understood some of these, there is no need for musicians to increase the repertoire as some do and focus on other good things.

I don't know if any of the musicians who are already in their thick of careers could fix themselves. But something for upcoming to think about.

[uday_shankar]

It is important that we build sustainable rasikatvam

Interesting word, sustainable. What about a sustainable voice ? Is CM an Olympic sport or a lifetime occupation... Already many youngsters are singing out of shruti maybe due to an unsustainable brikka-oriented singing

Many years ago, I wrote a review about RK Srikantan's sustainable style...

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday ... 739222.ece

[shankarank]

I cannot agree with you more. RKS's felicity and tonality was noted by many a veteran rasika here as he started appearing in Cleveland. A concert with right audio balance is something I remember : a dAcu kovAlEna with RKSK and Srimushnam ( what we a group of youngsters named as all kannadiga concert) is something to remember. And oh! how can I forget the icy roads that sent me to the ditch and still made it late to his post main bAlaGOpAla after being pulled out. I had two choices either head back the same distance or go forward to Cleveland - I went in the direction of more ice towards North pole.

And a sUrya mURtE with Guruvayoor Dorai - a soft miSram for samaSTi charanam @ the end!

But if all musicians aim to preserve their voice in one of the only few ways possible - how do we get diversity needed to sustain the interests of varied people?

[vijay.siddharth]

To me, losing voice is not just adapting the voice to the musical style, but also the voice to different ages.

Let me explain. Take MLV amma, for example. In the beginning (refer to the Radio Ceylon concert circa 1956), her pitch was extremely high and high-intensity, high-density, and high-energy brigas dominated her music. The distinctive timbre was barely visible in her voice, except for in the lower reaches of her voice.

As her career progressed, her voice acquired that distinct timbre and 'girth' (for lack of better expression). Thus, MLV, being the judicious musician she was, adjusted her brigas such that it suited her voice. This also put more focus on the core values of her music - the graha bedhams, the sarvalaghu swaraprastharams, and the dazzling brilliance and unconventionality in her approach to music, not to mention her padantharam, covering all from Purandara Dasa padams to Surajananda pieces.

However, a recalcitrant health, troubled personal life, and general old age made her go off-breath (but, AFAIK, NOT off-key). This is where MLV's brilliance in choosing Sudha Ragunathan madam as a disciple came into play. Sudha madam may not have the same unusual voice that MLV amma has, but her camphor-like intelligence means that MLV's ideas are often completed by Sudha, so the difference is less jerky (NB: this is true with Charumathi madam too).

Thus, my point is that, voice culture is not just about bringing it out to be malleable, but also to be judicious to adjust the brigas without losing the integrity of a bani.

Cheers

Siddharth

[shankarank]

Now a few examples that cut across these dimensions. Voleti -- he was effortless in his singing and probably had great resonance (cannot tell from recordings) and he sounded well-supported but there was a strange effect in his voice as if he was trying to hold back his voice from flying free.

Reading this made me remember a superb concert I heard couple of Months back or so. https://youtu.be/2M23TIfw3lQ?t=3284

He seems to gently push the voice and let it go only as far as it can go! Considering his age - there must be something right that he did all his life .

Well for one thing, he was not that busy a professional was he?

And look how he improvises just with kArvais to the extent that sometimes Mridangist pauses : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkQBBI2Aka8

[arasi]

Shankarank,
Enjoyed reading about your all kannaDigaru concert. The weather scene too...
Whether he sang in a teeny weeny temple or in a sabhAngaNa, RKS commanded all our attention. Every moment counted. The whole concert would make you experience an inner glow. As I have mentioned somewhere, I every now and then took a few moments off from this experience to glance at his wife in the audience, and to see her appreciating the music. A rare sight, indeed, which I treasure

[SrinathK]

A good characteristic of the singers with the maximum longevity is that they never took their voices to the absolute limit -- they had more range and capability in reserve than they would actually use in the concert.

I should also point out that a large portion of the wear and tear occurs outside the stage -- the strain of travelling (and the toll it can put on sleep and the immune system), things like diet, air pollution, gastroesophageal reflux (I went to an ENT who found this issue was responsible for my frequent throat infections), poor hydration and what not.

[Nick H]

I should also point out that a large portion of the wear and tear occurs outside the stage -- the strain of travelling (and the toll it can put on sleep and the immune system)

And the strain of teaching? It was a musician who told me that some people never rest their voices because they are teaching all day every day.

[SrinathK]

I should also point out that a large portion of the wear and tear occurs outside the stage -- the strain of travelling (and the toll it can put on sleep and the immune system)

And the strain of teaching? It was a musician who told me that some people never rest their voices because they are teaching all day every day.

This.

For this reason alone, we could argue that vocal teaching at some point needs to get students out of the repetition stage and into the self study stage. Easier said than done though. I mean, a teacher can't exactly play a recording of oneself in class can they? Well they could tell the students to learn and then fine tune it in next class, but sometimes the mistakes of some students will make this double work.

[vijay.siddharth]

I have read that TM Thiagarajan and TK Govinda Rao spoilt their voices by teasing so much...

[Suryaprakash]

Namaste to all. As one who has been regularly performing and teaching and has experimented with the voice, singing in various shruthis, including in those of vintage icons like SG Kittappa, MKT et al, I thought I could humbly add a few experiences here.

My recent interview with Deccan Herald :
http://m.deccanherald.com/articles.php? ... ormer.html

To add more,

I look up to my Paramaguru MMI for the correct usage of the voice. There seems to be no difference in the texture or timbre of his voice from start to finish, in a concert (observing the available recordings) or even through the span of his singing career. Other attributes of the doyen, already discussed are simply divinity and inimitable.

Shriman Vembu Iyerwal, father of my Guru TVS once quipped, there is no need to artificially modulate the voice to introduce BhavA or gana naya, one has to sing full throated (perisu) like Iyengarwal, chinnadu perisu will happen naturally after some years.

He has also said on another occasion that singing of raga pantuvarali early in the concert does magic to the voice, even if one has sore throat. I have shared this technique with Aishwarya, grand daughter of MS Amma on an occasion where she had a bad throat, she promptly changed her plan and sang pantuvarali and the rest was memorable.

I have heard from my revered Guru that MMI himself used to say, the voice must not become hoarse as the concert progresses, if it does, it indicates the wrong usage of gamakas or brighas.

I confess to have practised to sing in three full octaves, but in a concert, I play well within myself, with restraint.

[SrinathK]

I fully agree about the crooning 'for the mike' -- it's led to a loss of natural power and resonance, and range in the upper octave (for which the solution these days is to go for the head voice very early). I think too much crooning actually prevents the vocal folds from fully closing, leaving a small phonatory gap in between (My ENT pointed that out) resulting in a coarser, breathier, tone.

That loss of resonance might have to be made up for by straining and belting or worse, falsetto. To sing too softly in the upper octave is to risk weakening it later in life, but to shout is to risk losing your voice altogether. The power does not come from the vocal cords at all, it comes from the natural resonators in your body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_resonation

From my own experience, I say that there is a natural layer of mucus in the morning coating the throat (the vocal folds are mucosal membranes btw) that steadily gets worn down over the course of the day. Therefore, in the beginning, the voice is usually stronger in the lower octave than normal. However, over the course of a concert, or the day, that gets worn down and you may find it easier to sing in the upper octave at the expense of the lower. The point when your start losing tone and your voice becomes husky or breathy in the lower octave is when you have worn it too far.

You may find that you could sing a strong lower P or even M in the morning only to lose your voice by the time you hit the lower D at the end of the concert. That's warning bells -- the vocal cords are being worn thin. My ENT told me that this, combined with gastroesophegal reflux was a huge source of throat infections, and that acid reflux was more common in singers.

The voice is typically at it's most relaxed in raga alapana and most thrown about in high speed neraval and kalpanaswaras, where good habit yields to vigour. Those staccato notes that form part of what we call "mathematics" in overly complex patterns are a big source of strain. I do not think that there is any such precedent in any music system in the world were the voice has to be subjected to that much staccato as is there in CM.

CM being gamaka laden is harder on the voice than other kinds of music (Top HM performers can afford to take their own time to start slow and perform once in a few days, and western vocals are all about hitting the notes where it's much easier and seamless to shift from one register to another. That's not easy to do in CM).

In CM, where what you do between the notes is arguably even more important than the notes themselves and that's HARD on the voice. I'd say that there have to be days where the voice is totally rested and then kept in shape by singing only plain notes. It has to be warmed up to gamakas by singing them slowly and technically correctly. To borrow a lesson from WCM, a lot more practice must happen in the mind and the music must already be created before asking the body to communicate it (I know top violinists rehearse everything in their head to minimize wasted time and effort). The Gamaka technique has to be optimized to minimize strain.

I have read somewhere that reading aloud and enunciating syllables, trills, tongue exercises is one of the best ways to preserve the vocal muscles in later life, but can't find it.

[shankarank]

Wow!.. Man.. you are so clinical about things !

[SrinathK]

You're calling it a two edged sword I guess... Losing your voice is very much a clinical issue

I've had issues like these ever since my voice broke. This is the result of several chronic throat infections and a visit to the ENT that revealed the problem.

[thenpaanan]

For this reason alone, we could argue that vocal teaching at some point needs to get students out of the repetition stage and into the self study stage. Easier said than done though. I mean, a teacher can't exactly play a recording of oneself in class can they? Well they could tell the students to learn and then fine tune it in next class, but sometimes the mistakes of some students will make this double work.

Another aspect of our teaching methods: I was observing one class in CM for intermediate students. Some kriti was being taught and as expected the students were all over the spectrum in terms of being able to accurately repeat the teacher's phrasing and intonation. As you all know, there is tremendous complexity in Carnatic music when it comes to these two aspects. There was one girl, roughly twelve, who was getting all the phrases exactly right. She was reproducing all the nuances of modulation, the "nokku's" and "jaaru's" with astonishing clarity for so young a singer.

But here is the rub. She was achieving all this by controlling her throat really closely. She was not singing loudly or forcefully or with a uniform volume -- but rather singing softly in some phrases but getting all the melodic curves of the teacher. The teacher was praising this student to the sky and I am sure every other student there aspired to sing like her. My conjecture is that as good as this student may sound, in no time at all her voice will lose its shine as she focuses on accuracy at all costs. By the time she achieves maturity she will struggle to keep her voice afloat. But the teacher was oblivious. I got to realize that this is where the damage starts. Our students are rarely if ever told that in all this training it is vital to keep a good singing voice continuously in place. But the students only focused on producing the "sizzle" and everywhere else the voice died down to a low volume but no one seemed to care. Letting go of the voice in between phrases can add a lot of stress to the voice not to mention the effort that has to be put in because the proper mouth and throat positions have to be repeatedly re-formed. Needless to say this particular girl is well on her way to inculcating her bad habits but is completely unaware of it. What is worse it would be impossible to persuade anyone in this setting that anything is wrong. She was the epitome of perfection!

Has anyone observed this phenomenon of voice students who do brilliant singing early in their training/career (in their teens) but then fall behind because their voice becomes hoarse by the time they are in their twenties? I am talking about people who are still singing but whose voice lost luster pretty soon after becoming professionals.

I sometimes wonder if it would be better for voice students to get their basic singing training in some other system and then learn the highly nuanced way of singing in Carnatic music as an overlay to get the best of both. It is probably too late for me to relearn how to sing but it may be a better road for future generations.

-T

[SrinathK]

Modern apartment living isn't suitable to music practice -- I say it actually encourages you to sing or play very softly. Then you go out on the stage and all of a sudden your audible voice at home is a whisper up there. A friend of mine warned me that my violin or voice isn't going to be 10% as loud on the stage as it is at home -- after going to a competition I revised that to 5%. It's bad enough to get drowned by the speakers that you can't hear and so end up making many mistakes that you otherwise wouldn't.

The trouble is now that with no opportunity to practice, I might never actually get a chance to correct some of my past bad habits.

[Nick H]

Almost all young children can make noise. Loud noise. All they need to be told is to pretend that they are singing to someone on the other side of the playground. Yet I have seen them whispering into a mic even a small classroom. So unnecessary.

[shankarank]

Lets convert the stage into a transparent studio - with complete Audio blocked from the auditorium!