Caste in Carnatic Music

[Ponbhairavi]

By spewing hatred against one commmunity a money minded miser without any attribute except a rich onion spicy vocabulary , found himself rocketed to the top of social popularity.political partiesgot the clue to derive political adavantage in a demagogy or democracy. They accentuated and perpetuated it to amass unimaginable wealth.
This political leverage created a "reverse discrimination" As pointed out by Govindan brahmins are now the victims NOT the perpetrators. One may be tempted to say " let them suffer for what their ancestors did." The consequence is the younger generation in most forward castes and brahmin families are now out of the country, chased out by ostracism.whil going out they have taken with them whatever they had, uncut poonals ,uncut tufts ,vedas, religion,fine arts...which are thriving there as in a virgin soil.
Some artists now seem to think that they also can take up this " social discrimination " tool . But it has lost its sharp edge, due to abuse by politicians.It is too late and you cannot whip a dead horse.this policy may not fetch them fortunes. Instead they may try to go abroad and start making funds collection for developing fine arts in "backward, most backward, and reserved" communities here.

[Ponbhairavi]

duplication deleted

[vgovindan]

Suresh,
The wheel has come a full circle. Today it is the brahmin community which is being suppressed and oppressed. The upper class in brabmin community are cozily sitting in US and other foreign countries and/ or have posh bungalows at Tiruvanmiyur and Besant Nagar. They have made lower class - poor brahmins of Tamil Nadu - a convenient பலியாடு - sacrificial goat. Who cares about your musical elitism when people are struggling to survive? The FB is exploding with stories of பார்ப்பான் - slang for brahmin; and women are out in Chennai streets confronting goons.

Happy musical treats! God bless you! Kimdly ask TMK to continue his crusade.

[vgovindan]

Ponbhairavi,
Thanks for speaking your mind. பட்ட காலிலேயே படும்; கெட்ட குடியே கெடும். (Sorry for others who can't read Tamil).

https://www.facebook.com/mahalakshmi.ba ... 3161548782

[vijay.siddharth]

Good lord! I seem to have ignited quite the fire!

But I do agree that, from my limited exposure, Brahmins are not in a favourable position today. My conclusion comes from one observation, which is as follows:

My Tamil is a very brahminized Tamil. Even worse, it is a very 'Iyengar' tamil (sometimes I revert to Saathumuthu and Thertham instead of Rasam and thanni (water)). I am made to feel very self-conscious about my accent, and, as a result, I am struggling in a crisis about whether or not to speak in Tamil, for the accent is frequently (and, to my irritation), inaccurately lampooned. Yet, I do not see the same thing happening with the tamil of Gounders or Chettiars!

And about the Nandanar Charitram:

Again, I am no expert, but what struck me was the use of the word 'Paavi Parayan' (sinning Paraya) in Vazhi Maraithirukke (Nattaikurinchi). Of course, you've had characters like MDR camouflage it (humorously) as 'Paavi Paappan' (sinning Brahmin) (Paapan is a common appellation for Brahmin in the region of Palghat) - but some singers scuttle past the line without any notice or ignore the song altogether (which is unfortunate, for it is one of my favourite krithis in Nattakurinchi along with Mayamma)!

Please let me what you think

Cheers

Siddharth

[vijay.siddharth]

,
Today it is the brahmin community which is being suppressed and oppressed

Also shamed. The last time I blurted out 'Thertham', I got very strange looks.

Also, just a PSA to no one in particular: there are differences between Iyers and Iyengars!!!!!

[sureshvv]

Suresh,
The wheel has come a full circle. Today it is the brahmin community which is being suppressed and oppressed.

I feel your pain, but cannot fully agree with you on the state of affairs as you describe it.

The upper class in brahmin community are cozily sitting in US and other foreign countries and/ or have posh bungalows at Tiruvanmiyur and Besant Nagar. They have made lower class - poor brahmins of Tamil Nadu - a convenient பலியாடு - sacrificial goat.

So now you are blaming the upper class (economic) for the travails of the lower class? Hope you will agree that the people setting cozily in the US or other foreign countries did it out of their own hard work rather than looking for any handouts here.

The FB is exploding with stories of பார்ப்பான் - slang for brahmin; and women are out in Chennai streets confronting goons.

FB is always exploding with something. I did see the video that you had posted, and appreciated the woman's sentiments - might have been better to not "confront the goons" but help them see the light.

[vgovindan]

Suresh,
Kindly keep your homilies to yourself. You and your ilk like TMK are orchestrating genocide of brahmins in Tamil Nadu.

No one disputes that those who have made their lives, did it on their hard work. Then, did they remember those back home as to what infamy and calumny they are undergoing? No, Sir. You would not understand. I can see from your post that you are well deserved to be called upper class - a community within community led by the likes of TMK - who want to showcase themselves as uplifters of society, but in fact perpetrators of cruelty - nay genocide on - poor brahmins.

You may not remember the ending days of Indian Independence struggle and early days of Independence when brahmins of Tamil Nadu mass migrated to Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi etc.

Please, for God sake, stop your grandoise advices. You are about to witness genocide of brahmins of Tamil Nadu if no urgent interventionary measures are carried out.

I wish all the best for you and TMK. What I should I wish poor brahmins of Tamil Nadu - pray to God?

[sureshvv]

Kindly keep your homilies to yourself. You and your ilk like TMK are orchestrating genocide of brahmins in Tamil Nadu.

It looks like you are scarred beyond recovery to have a reasoned debate about this.
So I will stop here. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

[vgovindan]

Suresh,
Yes Sir. I am scarred badly but not scared, because brahmins in every epoch had to face this because some of their own making and some outside their control. The kind of dharma that has been prescribed for brahmins, would not allow them - at least majority of them - to stoop and they believe in 'dharmO rakshati rakshitaH'.

[kvchellappa]

I have been out of TN for a long time. IS it really so dire for Brahmins?

[arasi]

Govindan, friend,
You shine like a gem in your love, dedication and hard work you put into bringing to CM Tyagaraja Vaibhavam first, and then the glory of Guruguha and Syama Krishna which followed! No mean feat for a single individual. Your gift and in your wanting to share the meticulous and meaningful translations is, in the view of many of us a priceless gift--priceless for generations to come...

Siddharth, with all his musical fervor, has started voicing his frustrations about his tamizh vocabulary! Speak in english to them that mock you, I'd say! There are many other ways of enriching your tamizh!

PBhairavi,
Your gifts in writing and fervor for music are appreciated by many of us on Rasikas.org and elsewhere. Siddharth and others can be inspired by them!

Pasupathy's countless active contributions in bringing gems of writings in tamizh from many decades are examples of how some very active elder members live here in harmony with the young.

Whether the young members know it or not, quite a number of members are seniors here

[vgovindan]

Arasi,
My - you can call outburst - has nothing to do with the initiator of the post. It took an awkward turn when Nandanar was brought in and thereby implying social injustice 'perpetrated' by brahmins.

Sorry, I had to intervene to put things in perspective. But, yes, my thinking is not that of an outsider who could take a balanced view of things. I have gone through the rut the whole seventy - out of seventy five - years.

Contemporaneously things are not very clear but the trend is unmistakable - brahmins are the villains of the society. Things are not working out in their favour and they are losing the ground - and fast.

Rest, nothing very comforting in the short or long run for the poor brahmins of Tamil Nadu - not that you are unaware.

[kvchellappa]

The original issue was whether caste was in CM. There is no caste in CM, but it may be in the minds of the artists. The caste prejudices are from religious and social hangover and are not the product of CM. CM was and continues to be elitist as the audience is limited and an artist aspiring to make a living from it may not succeed always.
Then, Nandanar was introduced. The focus of Bharathi in Nandanar was Bhakthi and how bhakthi prevails over bigotry, not caste. Yes, there are derogatory terms used, but they reflected reality of social practice, not any attempt by the poet to justify them. Even the artists love it for its musical value, not for any caste feeling. Over time, many lyrics have been taken from the work, and have gained stature, like thiruvadi saranam. Particularly, Tamizh loving audience enjoy them and I do not think they stir any caste feelings.
The issue then veered to caste based oppression. There is no evidence that Nandanar has been responsible for the poor plight of some people. Poor people suffer irrespective of religion and caste.
The 'inaction' of people like Rajaji to stop hatred crimes was mentioned. It is ticklish to fix dharmic responsibility for this. Should Rajaji and others have not worked for the ideals? How would that have helped? Would there not have been worse backlash? Was it not for the govt. of the day to provide security? If the govt. fails or fans it by itself, how can certain individuals be blamed?
Caste is an evil that is well entrenched and art cannot wait for that monster to be put down. Art must go on on its terms and values, without being bogged down by misconceptions and miscarriages.
Is it a burden to carry the vestiges of Brahminhood? A friend of mine used to come with three distinct stripes on the forehead to office. He was interviewed by a foreign bank, but was told that his forehead must be clean. He did not want the job. That is a choice one has to make. Mimicking dialects etc. Is done worldwide. Why not join in the laughter? I do enjoy when Palghat Tamizh is mimicked. Cho has satirised Chennai Tamizh in his plays and films. I do not think we must take it to heart.
Are Brahmins in such a bad shape, worse than dalits and tribals, and many other such socially backward groups? I have no idea. Still, art is not the medium to address those issues. Those who indulge in linking the two because they draw their income from art are cantankerous. We need to keep the two separate. The suffering of the poor people will not be reduced by suppressing free ride to art.
We share our opinions here and there is no intention to preach. Opinions are neither right nor wrong. They are different ways of looking at the same thing.

[Ponbhairavi]

Arasi , thanks for your kind words.
The wordings of GKBś maanji composition varugalamo are changed by most brahmin vidwans including KVN while singing in public in tamil nadu.They are aware that mere utterance of a particular word could attract them non bailable arrest warrant . Is there any non tamil composer whose lyrics warrant such change ?
every middle class brahmin living here bears scars and also woundswhich are periodically poked.Which parental heart will not bleed when his son or daughter looks up in his face and asks "Dad why the 99 per cent i got did not get me what some one elseś 25 per cent got for him.?. The silence in my response does not reveal to him that "my son my only prayer is that your son is not pushed to a situation when he would ask you the same question

[sureshvv]

Is it a burden to carry the vestiges of Brahminhood?

I think this is the million dollar question!

A friend of mine used to come with three distinct stripes on the forehead to office. He was interviewed by a foreign bank, but was told that his forehead must be clean. He did not want the job. That is a choice one has to make.

Seemed it was for your friend. But he would rather carry the burden.

[vijay.siddharth]

Siddharth, with all his musical fervor, has started voicing his frustrations about his tamizh vocabulary! Speak in english to them that mock you, I'd say! There are many other ways of enriching your tamizh!

Dear Arasi madam (please let me know if that is okay, or you prefer any variants of the same!)

I love speaking in Tamil, especially the way the syllables roll off my tongue. It is therefore a massive pain for me to not speak in Tamil to those who don't know it, and feel self-conscious about it! I write and read Tamil very well, and it is only the spoken department I sorely wish to improve upon in...

[VK RAMAN]

Arasi, you nailed it with those "Let joy alone
Be its creed "

[shankarank]

Yes, there are derogatory terms used, but they reflected reality of social practice, not any attempt by the poet to justify them.

There was no derogatory term - that was made derogatory just like many other good terms (like pArpAn). Thiruvalluvar may have been from that kulam ( if there were indeed kulams then).

Nandanar caritram for GB could have been a metaphorical description of the struggle to merge with the lord for anybody - not just the people referred to - ofcourse using the social situation!

[varsha]

Is it just me, or is the Carnatic music sung by non-brahmins like Somu and Desikar and even MLV (from what I understand, she was from the Devadasi community) far more 'raw' than the likes of Brahmin musicians like DK Pattammal?
Please add your thoughts below, and if it is a stupid/tactless question (the latter of which is a speciality of mine

It is stupidly tactlessly worded too.To answer your question, IT IS JUST YOU .And for that you need you need to answer some basic questions.
What is it you are searching for ?
What is it you propose to do now - other than talk/discuss ?
What is it you have would have done to change something ,if you could go back in time.

btw - if you are really young into music - as you indicate - you are wasting a lot of time.
Take it from someone who has fewer years than you .
MAN , you are wasting time-energy BIGTIME.

[vijay.siddharth]

It is stupidly tactlessly worded too.To answer your question, IT IS JUST YOU .And for that you need you need to answer some basic questions.
What is it you are searching for ?
What is it you propose to do now - other than talk/discuss ?
What is it you have would have done to change something ,if you could go back in time.

btw - if you are really young into music - as you indicate - you are wasting a lot of time.
Take it from someone who has fewer years than you .
MAN , you are wasting time-energy BIGTIME.

Dear Sir/Madam

I didn't realise that it was the case. I think more of myself as a thinker for the simple reason that I don't have that many people to talk to about Carnatic music, and it was just as a stray thought which struck (one of my many...). Please let me know what would be a more productive way of using my time and energy, and I will follow that up. Again, to all members of Rasikas.org, my most sincere apologies. It was just the flush and excitement of getting a membership.

Mods, please lock this thread if you wish to.

Apologies, and yours truly,

Siddharth

[varsha]

To start with
You can get rid of thinking about caste in music . And just enjoy the music for its worth .
Let the music of the three you mention make you soar - they are not raw by any stretch of imagination .
If the track was not traceable to a name , you could barely trace its brahminic origins ,
Back on the ground let your information on the subject of caste - in any field of endeavour - be at its worst , a source of collective responsibility from the past. As a way to the future.
...
You could also benefit by reading the English translation of SL Bhyrappas kannada novel - vamsha vruksha
Or see the hindi version of the movie on you tube
Yours or anyone else's brahminism goes only as far as you hit an inflexion point.
It is not even skin deep

[ram1999]

None of the doors that opened up for TMK (or any other contemporary musician) is because of caste

Wasn't TMK's first concert organised because his uncle TT Vasu wanted him to perform? How many musicians did TT Vasu actively seek to perform in the Academy?

what is caste got to do with this ?? ridiculous !!
The opportunity given perhaps was because TMK was related to TTV and it is more a favoritism/special consideration !!

[vijay.siddharth]

what is caste got to do with this ?? ridiculous !!
The opportunity given perhaps was because TMK was related to TTV and it is more a favoritism/special consideration !!

This was to draw contrast with Dandapani Desikar, who, according to Madurai GS Mani, was denied chances in the Academy (or any other Madras Sabha) was denied chances because of his caste. He was also disrespected in AIR and was treated more like a light music artiste despite the classicism in his music according to Sanjay Subhramanyam.

[semmu86]

This was to draw contrast with Dandapani Desikar, who, according to Madurai GS Mani, was denied chances in the Academy (or any other Madras Sabha) was denied chances because of his caste. He was also disrespected in AIR and was treated more like a light music artiste despite the classicism in his music according to Sanjay Subhramanyam.

With due respects ultimately, what is your point? And what is that you are trying to achieve or state or correct by starting this thread? No Sarcasm here. Am trying to ask this in the most constructive manner possible.

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Let's do away with this time tested debate.

I REPEAT my plea!

[vijay.siddharth]

With due respects ultimately, what is your point? And what is that you are trying to achieve or state or correct by starting this thread? No Sarcasm here. Am trying to ask this in the most constructive manner possible.

I was merely trying to compare musical styles between musicians from non-Brahmin and Brahmin backgrounds. I seriously didn't expect the discussion to flame up into a detailed discussion on whether or not Brahmins are persecuted in today's India, nor did I have much of a role in the discussion. My point, I realise now, is that talking about caste here is a very dangerous and volatile matter with vitriol seeping out from every Lilliputian crevice (existent or not).

[Nick H]

Curious that you make no mention of nadaswaram.

[vijay.siddharth]

Respected Sir

I am no expert in Nadaswaram music (something I wish to remedy in the coming season)! I listen more to veena music

[kvchellappa]

Nick's point is perhaps about nadaswaram artists who played a great role in CM, who are not Brahmins (with rare exceptions).
It is no doubt a contentious topic.
Having brought it up (not a welcome move for getting a hold on music), it is not fair to criticise others for speaking their mind.
Quote: (My point, I realise now, is that talking about caste here is a very dangerous and volatile matter with vitriol seeping out from every Lilliputian crevice (existent or not).

[vijay.siddharth]

Dear sir,

I am absolutely clueless about Nadaswaram music; hence my silence.

[vgovindan]

Deleted

[Nick H]

I am no expert in Nadaswaram music

Neither am I. In fact, I confess that it does not suit my ears.

But yes, the point is that, if you must come here with this subject, why do so ignoring a whole part of the music which is, traditionally, not Brahmin.

Whether your intentions were genuine or not, varsha, semmu, and all have answered you well and that should be an end to it.

If you have a genuine question, you had better come back with it rephrased meaningfully. Until then, it would be a good idea if you stop just needling away at this thread, lest you convince us that you are just a troll.

[Nick H]

Guys, I think this thread is dead, but one last point. I just noticed Mr vijay's first post here

Hello everyone! As my id suggests, my name is Vijay Siddharth, and I am 16 years old! I live in Singapore and LOVE Carnatic music. ... ... ...

It is not fair for us, who are all 17 or older, to expect him to know the world as well as we do.

Mr vijay, sorry I was rude. This thread should be a learning experience for you. But don't push it!

[shankarank]

Before it dies - let me put out some response ( it may not answer anything!) to vijay:

My Tamil is a very brahminized Tamil. Even worse, it is a very 'Iyengar' tamil (sometimes I revert to Saathumuthu and Thertham instead of Rasam and thanni (water)). I am made to feel very self-conscious about my accent, and, as a result, I am struggling in a crisis about whether or not to speak in Tamil, for the accent is frequently (and, to my irritation), inaccurately lampooned

You have to have played some cricket or gilli with people of various jAtis around in some place like Madurai, Trichy or Coimbatore or Nellai. Me and my brother will converse mostly in such a tamizh ( aanngna ) , many times even between ourselves , even as we may switch context to vAngO , pOngO, inside the home.

So just engage and pickup their lingo a bit. Nothing difficult!

I will make another post on how the Caste and CM thing from my eyes as a child ( it is one of those billion view points ) shaped up. It won't be vitriolic , or controvertial, but it will provide some back ground.

[shankarank]

I think this was the typical scenario in the 80s through the 90s – a picture of the brahminized Carnatic and societal scene.

One of my class mates hailing from a Saiva Pillai caste from Madurai ( mid 80s) - who made it to IIT and then made it to US Bachelors degree after abandoning it in 1 year - learnt music from a likely Brahmin teacher in his locality- and will participate in CM competitions which I would help organize in my school, was not considered as good. As the class would make me sing at other times - the crooner from tarangini cassettes of KJY. He would talk a lot of bad things about the devadasi system and how it was connived by brahmins etc. almost declaring bankruptcy against the musical heritage as a whole!

I was doing Adi talam in reverse fingering not from little finger! Of course I had the benefit of snoozing in the morning when my Grandpa ( a smArta in fact) gets up and recites "kulam tarum selvam tantiDum" of tirumangai Azhwar in chaste bEgaDa and me as a little boy , he took me around with a uncha vriddhi by a disciple of Gopalakrishna Bhagavatar of pudukOTTai and I have memories of seeing them spread the rice collection well past Noon at our temple. KritIs like enta nErchina - Saveri ( I heard Dr Sundar sing it recently after a long time) would be sung in bhajans - it is also part of the bhajanotsava manjari , a compilation with a photo of Gopalakrishna Bhagavatar in the foreword page.

I remember a Chettiar – likely the only non brahmin person in that audience speaking at a Sikkil Neela & Kunjumani concert in our temple with (vaguely remembering) may be KRM on Mridangam - and hearing about Brinda - Mukta mentioned with all greats! After that I heard about them in the U.S.

TNS concerts should have been regular somewhere else but not in Madurai within the reach of people like me. As we played cricket on the street, I would see him go in a scooter to teach some Mamis 10 blocks down. I heard about a concert of his with CS Murugabhoopathy after it happened again in a terrace 10 blocks down - my brother went to it. That was my only chance of hearing that great man (CSM) on Mridangam that never happened.

It is not until I came to study in Chennai - that I saw a full brahminical ghetto, inside the IIT - mostly from PSBB, Vidya Mandir. The rest of the student body from other states with Telugus, mostly the Reddy last names from Little flower convent in Hyderabad - and others from convent schools in Delhi, Calcultta. Except for one of those PSBBs who had a vAdyar come to his house for adyayanam - he knows to recite a lot of it including the karma kANDa brahmanAs (he was otherwise quite modernized in the swear words he used in English ), rest of them were already like they were from some American city! This was around 1988!

The music club had a good array of musicians show cased in my 4 years there. Ravi Kiran with Palghat Raghu and Palghat Sundaram, U Srinivas, TNS with not so good accompaniments, to even some obscure ones like Tadepalli Lokananatha Sarma. U Srinivas was featured in a Mardi Gra event in the Open Air theatre, stadium full with Palghat Raghu on Mridangam. Quite a few Lec Dems, Spic Macay etc.

As I travelled to Houston – I had two music lovers in the contingent, a student of TNS and another a relative of Usha Sagar – a disciple of Ramnad Krishnan - who was living in Houston. The TNS student shared some recordings and I also heard some real live recordings of TNS the first time ever. As regards Ramnad Krishnan , I am hearing about him the very first time in my life at Houston , the Madurai of America if you will. So a musician, a brahmin himself, hailing from about 100 miles from my city and represents if you will – two non brahmin lineages (Sankara Sivam, T Brinda ) of music is not known to many people down south!

The shock does not end there. As soon as we step into the Columbus Shipyard museum at Corpus Christi in a few days, the Spanish sailor trots out two names greeting us Desis with a namaste. After learning we were from down south He mentions KVN and Ramnad Krishnan. Imagine my surprise and shock!

I cherish a nice Bhajana parula by Usha Sagar as the tail piece of Thyagaraja Utsavam singing series at the Madurai of America - Meenakshi temple in Houston - 1994 I believe.

As of now, a colleague of mine, related to the Moopanar family distantly who has attended Tiruvaiyaru events many times in childhood, calls me only to find out about a NithyaShri concert that both of us couldn’t go this Spring series. He was inquisitive about how people would feel if he showed up there as well! So this concept of brahmins making others feel out of place is etched in the whole people’s mindset.

The Dravidian movement combined with urbanization of CM venues has achieved this up-root-ment successfully! Well prior to that how much of the Non brahmin populace outside of those who were close to the Zamindars and Samasthanams had any roots one may ask. But then by the same token how much of the Brahmins did. So the Indian freedom momentum did not capture the interest of one section as the other section made it as one of their identity.

Now Dravidian movement itself is being targeted by the so called Pure Tamizh movements as a false Telugu foist over the real tamizh people to protect the former’s land ownership. So as a potentially Telugu in disguise movement in retrospect it failed to absorb CM as heritage!

In the diaspora however, there quite a good number of kids from non brahmin families learning music and many more, dance. The Sri Lankan diaspora esp. in Canada are an example and they are the ones that are likely to protect tamizh as well.

In all this however, with all it’s status indicator ( I go to the Academy!) stuff around, the only reason the music is flourishing is because at the very core, people think there is some sacredness to it and the real CM people know that it is not due to the bhakti themes in songs – even though that is the narrative propaganda to the general CM populace.

[vgovindan]

Sankarank,
Thanks for the detailed post. IMHO, music has two sides - the artist and the listener. There may be ghettoisation of artists, but listeners are not. The bhakti aspect, as far artists are concerned, is a cliche. Artists are there to simply portray the bhAva of the music, yes, music and particularly lyrics. They are no more than actors. Actors don't turn into characters.

Music has two aspects - the bhajana tradition and profession. You have mentioned about Gopalakrishna Bhagavatar. I know him - I am also somewhat related to him. The kind of bhajans that person used to conduct was mesmerical. That declined after his demise. Be that as it may, he is only an example of bhajana paddhati which held on to music - not for sustenance - but as an instrument of expression of bhakti. What else is more profound than music to express one's yearning? This bhajana paddhati actually preserved music and developed to higher levels because of the depth that is achieved in musical renderings in their bhajana tradition. (You may dispute me whether music is more understood by professional artists or amateurs like Bhagavatas - it all depends on one's leanings). Purandara Dasa and Tyagaraja belonged to this paddhati. The influence of Telugu over CM is very pronounced because of this bhajana paddhati which is more prevalent in Telugu regions, but flourished more in Tamil region. Why there are not more Tamil compositions, may have something to do with the kind of rulership of Tamil Nadu - Tamil Nadu has been under non-Tamil rule for almost a thousand years.

I may confess that I have attended less concerts but listened more of bhakti music - particularly North Indian and TS Balakrishna Sastrigal. One may not recognise TSB as any great artist - who cares, what matters is the effect that is brought about on the individual - that also depends on what the leanings of the listener is.

But for the Dravidian movement, Tamil Nadu would have seen a more wholesome development of music - notwithstanding the regressive aspects like Devadasi system. We are not going to have another Balasaraswati - at least I do not see any because the dance tradition is more like that of CM Musicians only. Please also note that Devadasi system was prevalent equally in all parts of South. But why it is given more prominence here is because of the Dravidian movement. This movement saw the decline of Nadaswaram (Nadaswara vidwans and Devadasis are complimentaries) - in fact ex CM of Tamil Nadu - Karunanidhi belongs to this tradition. You can understand now why Nadaswaram declined in Tamil Nadu.

Where do we go from here - God alone knows. But I can sense the steep decline of music oriented bhajana paddhati - pravachanas are not substitute for bhajana - which is participatory in nature. I can see more orientation towards lakshana of music, than the depth. The same as a poem written for the sake of a prize vs a Subrahmanya Bharati who pours out the soul's yearning. It is now more of poetical nature - nothing to do with substance.

There are three terms - vAchyArtha - lakshyArtha - lakshya. We are now confined to vAchyArtha only - We are not touching on lakshyArtha, forget about lakshya. This lakshya belongs to humans - neither brahmin nor non-brahmin. Tirunalaippovar - the original version of Nandanar - is an example of that - the yearning. The more one is educated, the more he is conceited and brahmins are more educated.

[arasi]

Govindan,
So many things to mull over...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts (yearnings?)...in times when there are so many currents for the young to get carried away in. Certain things don't change though, history tells us--mainly, that yearning or that indescribable longing in humans which alone, thank goodness, spells true progress in human existence.
andariki vandanamu (salutations to all), those of glory who yearned)...

[shankarank]

You may dispute me whether music is more understood by professional artists or amateurs like Bhagavatas - it all depends on one's leanings

Bhajana tradition I believe developed its own refinement ( I would not use the term sophistication) within its own idiom as it was practiced! As regards professional music, paucity of sAdhakam, or lack of good captive talent to take up music and economic strain have taken their own toll and resorting to grammatical viewpoints is somewhat an escape route to project refinement. So each within its own has its own upliftment and downfall - no need to compare!

And I get the point about artistes vs Bhagavatars. I mentioned the latter only to show how one way rasikas could get developed , but nothing is set in stone there as well.

Be that as it may, he is only an example of bhajana paddhati which held on to music - not for sustenance - but as an instrument of expression of bhakti

I hope by stating what I remembered about Rice collections being spread I did not convey anything amiss. That I think is some sort of a ritual at the end of the unca vriddhi! I am not implying that in this instance that was their sustenance - by that time there were many ways! This Bhagavathar's son had a job as an attender in my school, but used to assist his father on those rounds about once a month or so!

notwithstanding the regressive aspects like Devadasi system

Lets not jump too fast in judgement! Many progressive thinkers are challenging the power structure of family! That may not be the same as any old system, but certainly that says that we cannot judge everything from vantage point of the familial existence! Humans have gamed well thought out constitutions with checks and balances - so we cannot go by the modalities of any system to judge it!

The influence of Telugu over CM is very pronounced because of this bhajana paddhati which is more prevalent in Telugu regions, but flourished more in Tamil region. Why there are not more Tamil compositions, may have something to do with the kind of rulership of Tamil Nadu - Tamil Nadu has been under non-Tamil rule for almost a thousand years

Sanskritists really dropped the mantle here. They were blinded by their success as clerks! With concepts like BhAshArUpa for the divine mother ( all languages are said to be residing in her!) they could not build a narrative to bridge this gap. New Tamizh compositions were out as soon as the music were reaching a lot of people.

Given the fact that it is the knowledge of English that helped us win freedom, even English is our language that we made it our own and joins the divine set! The English man cannot claim the reverse! It may not have been constructed with "Sound as divine" meta physics , but aren't we evolved enough to inject that spirit into it? That's my attitude!

The more one is educated, the more he is conceited and brahmins are more educated.

I believe gaining and cherishing experiential knowledge can compensate for what the intellectual education can do to a person.

[vijay.siddharth]

in fact ex CM of Tamil Nadu - Karunanidhi belongs to this tradition

Even more interestingly, he descended from a direct disciple of Muthuswami Dikshitar!!! I wonder what he had to say about things like Muruga coming and dropping sugar into Dikshitar's mouth to compose Sri Nathadi Guruguho or when he made rain fall by singing Anandamrithakarshini!

[vijay.siddharth]

So just engage and pickup their lingo a bit. Nothing difficult!

Dear sir

I am, unfortunately, not blessed with many friends good at Tamil. It would surprise you, but they think my Tamil is really good! If I picked up their lingo, I'd end up speaking Tamil like Namitha from Bigg Boss!!!!

(No offences intended)

[vijay.siddharth]

Mr vijay, sorry I was rude. This thread should be a learning experience for you. But don't push it!

Dear Sir

Please, don't apologise! My questions tend to be very, very tactless, and sometimes I don't realise that they are tactless too, so this is a very important learning experience for me.

Cheers

Siddharth

[Ponbhairavi]

Govindan,
Remarkable analysis, with thought provoking corollaries.
" Govindan wrote: this bhajanai paddathi actually preserved music and developed it to higher levelsthat is achieved in musical renderings"
In a bhajanai many bhagavathars with different levels of attainments participate with a unique sense of bhakthi bhava . Every one takes his turn in singing one of the charanams of the composition ands adds his imagination output in the raga rendering. This qualitative competition kindles inspiration mutually resulting in overall development. In a concert there are only two competitors ( the main artist and the " pakka vadhyam" , the former keeping his option as to when to turn off - and thi is the permanent grudgeof most violinists who yearn to become soloists.
Govindan wrote : " Tamil Nadu has been under non tamil rulers for almost a thousand years..."
Hence the language of the ruler has an advantage on several counts. This may be the reason whyO V K 's compositions, despite their clear superiority as brought out by shri Ravi kiran in his studies, did not get the attention and exposure they deserved.
Govindan wrote:-"but for the dravidian movement T N would have seen a more wholesome development..."
it is to be noted that most of the leaders of the dravidian movement( fromE V R to many others ")who proclaimed themselves as saviours of tamil language had telegu as mother tongue and in their house and privately talked in telegu only.their only aim was to pull down the brahmins andparticularly the sanscrit language and how many attempts have been made to veil the achiements of brahmins for the cause of tamil ( even Bharathy took more than 30 years for his recognition.

[vgovindan]

Sankarank
I am not qualified in music. But music is innate to humans. Here is a rendering of Chalamelara of Tyagaraja by Madurai Somu.
https://youtu.be/Og8ef76qBB0

This is not his best rendering, yet, in Hindi there is a saying 'hazaar khoon maaf' (all crimes forgiven - roughly) - that fits in. All his diction faults or pronunciation faults are forgiven - just for the bhAva. சங்கீதத்தில் கரைந்து போகமுடியுமா? (can one dissolve himself in Music) - that is a million dollar question. You may call me freak - well, I humbly accept it.

Why I am bringing it here? When one loses his conceitedness, music shines.

[vgovindan]

Ponbhairavi,
Thanks for your response.

[shankarank]

சங்கீதத்தில் கரைந்து போகமுடியுமா? (can one dissolve himself in Music) - that is a million dollar question. You may call me freak - well, I humbly accept it.

But that is a conundrum. Somu likely drew his staple from a forest full of flowers and fruits! An avid fan - who collects his recordings - I have met him - says this man , Somu went behind Nadasvaram Artistes like a crazy man!

But even Bhava has become a target of some shopping spree now, some musicians trying to tailor their music to emote!

[ram1999]

what is caste got to do with this ?? ridiculous !!
The opportunity given perhaps was because TMK was related to TTV and it is more a favoritism/special consideration !!

This was to draw contrast with Dandapani Desikar, who, according to Madurai GS Mani, was denied chances in the Academy (or any other Madras Sabha) was denied chances because of his caste. He was also disrespected in AIR and was treated more like a light music artiste despite the classicism in his music according to Sanjay Subhramanyam.

I suspect this is clearly a mischief mongering in the lines of TMK !!!

[Nick H]

I am, unfortunately, not blessed with many friends good at Tamil.

You live in a country where Tamil is one of the national languages, right?

And, according to what you have told us, you probably live with your family. Well, I suppose it could be that they are more proficient at Chinese or Malay.

[vijay.siddharth]

You live in a country where Tamil is one of the national languages, right?

I do, but, since I go to an international school, I am surrounded by Punjabis and Bengalis and Maharashtrians. The few people who I talk to in Tamil speak it like Namitha does (as I mentioned). The best Tamil I hear is from the newscasters on Vasantham TV- and that tamil is so pure, it is scary

And, according to what you have told us, you probably live with your family. Well, I suppose it could be that they are more proficient at Chinese or Malay.

My mother has, in fact, translated Kalki's Sivakamiyin Sabatham from Tamil to English. Her Tamil is very good (unlike mine ), but, since she grew up in Madras, she had more opportunities to speak it than me.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
About the Books
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http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/64 ... yaraghavan