Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

May I also add that conservative brahmins considered Sanskrit was divine and should be chanted only in the 'vedic style' and not sung (except in bhajans?). When MS musicalized vishnu sahasranamam there was a big resistance, primarily also since it was not supposed to be sung by a Woman !

arasi
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Post by arasi »

And the suprabhAtam!
CML,
Thanks for jogging my memory and for your excellent post.
We 'lived' those moments when the national fervor brought to focus bArati's patriotic verses which later led to appreciating the whole body of his great works. Among others, Kalki and Sadasivam, the editor and publisher of the magazine Kalki were joined by others who were keen on promoting tamizh songs. There were bArati competitions everywhere for youngsters to take part in and Kalki, though he suffered from asthma, was present as a judge in most of them. AVm's film nAm iruvar had hit songs which were bArati's. ADuvOmE, paLLu pADuvOmE! veTRi eTTu dikkumeTTa koTTu muraSE, viDudalai, viDudalai, and so on.

Of course, Ariyakkudy also tuned rAm nATAka krutis besides tiruppAvai which gained popularity. MSS's yArO ivar yArO, VVS's kANa vENDUm laksham kaNgaL, rAmanukku mannan muDi tandAlE etc...

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover wrote:May I also add that conservative brahmins considered Sanskrit was divine and should be chanted only in the 'vedic style' and not sung (except in bhajans?). When MS musicalized vishnu sahasranamam there was a big resistance, primarily also since it was not supposed to be sung by a Woman !
Again - not sure. I thought there was a clear distinction between sanskrit works (like vedas) that need to only chanted (in a specific way), vs. sanskrit works that can be sung. For example, *ALL* examples in Sarngadeva's work (with solfa notation) are in Sanskrit. IIRC so is the kalveTTu in Tamil Nadu which predates that by 500 years (forgot the place now). Heck, I am sure there are sanskrit music phrases in NatyaSastra.

So Sansrit only for chanting? I certainly dont think history supports it.
Last edited by arunk on 21 Feb 2008, 22:51, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

There are always exceptions! My keyword is 'conservative' :)
(let us not rule out the compositions of Annammacarya and Purandara! (they did sing them and not chant! The Tamil paashurams were 'sung' by the Othuvaars in the style set by the naayanmaar. Even now some of them resent them being sung as a CM kriti with the aalaapanai nereval style!

arunk
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Post by arunk »

yes - but when did exceptions/fringe-elements become the rule in establishing norms i.e. to some how make sanskrit have a diminished role?

Besides I thought your point was sanskrit somehow had a diminished role PRIOR to MD (so MS singing is completely irrelevant to that point)? I think there is clear evidence to the contrary.

On the other hand, if you are talking about conservatives in the 19th/20th century then that directlycontradicts the implication of your point that *since* MD (i.e. 19th, 20th century) sanskrit had a prominent role (because of him). If these conservatives had much clout then in spite of MD, sanskrit in CM would have been diminished until more progressive times. Again, history contradicts that.

I think it is safe to say sanskrit has been part of parcel of CM in a significant role since its inception. Its only telugu that raised its profile in a very significant way later.

Arun

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

I see no reason for the disappearance of the kritis of OVK, Annamma etc in Sanskrit from sanskrit unless they were promoted blatantly or in Royal courts. Even svati kept his kritis for private entertainment and did not encourage them to be sung publicly. We certainly do not know how many of the sanskrit songs with raga affixture were sung. In fact they may have been tuned by later performers or even following MD who we know for sure sang in Sanskrit. With Badracala Ramdas, Kshtrajna etc Telugu was more promiant in CM and with Royal patronage was waiting for the arrival of T to become the lingua musica!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML's description of the Madras/Mylapore scene of the early 20th century makes sense and consistent with what I have read elsewhere.

We also need to throw the following into the equation to understand the full picture.

Before the ARI innovated the current cutcheri format, the number of krithis sung in CM concerts were minimal since they were all predominantly RTP based. So,

1) Who were singing the Trinity's songs in concerts? And where? In royal courts and Zamindar/patron houses?
2) There seems to be something missing in the narrative of the CM scene of the 1800s. How did the trinity's compositions spread across South India in the 1800s, if they actually did?
3) Another angle to think about is, were the Shishyas of the Trinity ( specifically Tyagaraja ) learning music from them or learning their compositions from them? Where did they put to use those compositions?
4) Let us consider GKB and Vedanayakam Pillai. Both were Tamil composers. How and where were their compositions used during their times? Did they have Shishyas?

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

4) Let us consider GKB and Vedanayakam Pillai. Both were Tamil composers. How and where were their compositions used during their times? Did they have Shishyas?
Vedanayagam pillai was popular only among the non-brahmins. His songs were set to CM tunes much later but were seldom sung. Though Ramalinga svamigaL (vaLLalar) had written a number of Tamil songs, nobody bothered to sing them in Carnatic tunes but were sung more in the style of thEvaram (PaNN style). Primarily these were nonbrahmin works. GKB's works had some recognition; especially his nandanar kIrtanai as an opera with good carnatic tunes. They were seldom sung in Concerts until much later as thukkadas. Of course the Harikatha on nandanar was extremely popular until there were rising protests from the nonbrahmin community after which some of the songs were sanitized.

let us remember that Purandara dasa also was a nonbrahmin which is one of the reasons why his songs were dormant. Ramakriya can perhaps describe the reception of the dasars in general among the conservative community. Kathakali padams were in classical ragas, many of which were mostly sanskrit (maNipravaLam) and were performed by Namboodris or other high-castes. But never in any concert style.

There were veda pAThashaalas in almost every village supported by the Kings or local rulers. But there never were music schools. The Bhagavatars were not accorded high respect in those days in comparison with the rithviks. It is quite likely that even T was not considered 'great' during his days. History will speak for itself! CM did survive only among the 'devadasis'. In fact it took a devadasi to start and sustain T's festival. Note also that other than MV and HMB there are not any sanskrit composers. T's shishyas had a field day but they never composed any in sanskrit (I agree Maha vaidyanatha Iyer did compose). I would like to know how sanskrit did make it to the concert stage in the midst of the plethora of Telugu songs and the dominance of T's shishyas!

srkris
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Post by srkris »

[quote=""nathikan""]Every one of them! What branch of the sciences did child widows excel in, I wonder, the science of being inauspicious?[/quote]
Children (whether widows or not) cannot be compared to adults. Irrespective of that, it is true that there are various sciences, each with its own grammar/treatises, at least one of which every brahmin tried to get adept in.

For example, the science of mathematics, the science of astronomy, the science of music, the science of linguistics etc.

This is not a prejudiced view... I have a fair idea of ancient India and I only convey my understanding of it.. sorry if it was offensive.

nathikan
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Post by nathikan »

cmlover wrote:Arunachala kavi inspite of his sparkling lyrics and ragas never made it (probaly due to the non-brahmin bias)... Vedanayagam pillai was popular only among the non-brahmins. His songs were set to CM tunes much later but were seldom sung. Though Ramalinga svamigaL (vaLLalar) had written a number of Tamil songs, nobody bothered to sing them in Carnatic tunes but were sung more in the style of thEvaram (PaNN style). Primarily these were nonbrahmin works...let us remember that Purandara dasa also was a nonbrahmin which is one of the reasons why his songs were dormant.
Is "conservative community" your euphemism for bamans? Come let us call a spade a spade! Jokes aside, it's interesting to read these remarks (particularly about Purandaradasa) alongside the earlier posts in this thread, avering the universalism of bhakthi.
srkris wrote:Children (whether widows or not) cannot be compared to adults. Irrespective of that, it is true that there are various sciences, each with its own grammar/treatises, at least one of which every brahmin tried to get adept in.

For example, the science of mathematics, the science of astronomy, the science of music, the science of linguistics etc.

This is not a prejudiced view... I have a fair idea of ancient India and I only convey my understanding of it.. sorry if it was offensive.
My point was that there were classes of Brahmins who were excluded from normal life, forget about the pursuit of knowledge, and that your view of "every brahmin" implicitly takes "brahmin" as male, not to mention ignores not only the obvious but the rich contempt for that assertion evidenced in our classical literature. I'm afraid your assertion of knowledge doesn't impress me.
Last edited by nathikan on 22 Feb 2008, 17:42, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

I use no euphemisms but only a cultured language. Societal issues as they relate to CM are discussed here and the rest are irrelevant.

I just saw that Sudha is initiating the singing of ThirukkuraL in Carnatic ragas
http://www.chennaionline.com/colnews/ne ... RYNAME=CHN

I wonder whether she would ever sing them in any concert. Some of the ThirukkuRaL lines are excellent for elaboration in an RTP. However nobody ever tries them! If there is a political goodie to be gained or a financial incentive vidvaans sure will flock to it. Yet again a sparkling review of such an attempt by SVK or GN will change the whole approach to CM overnight. To a large extent the future fate of CM will be determined by the Market Place :)

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

Chauvanistic society was created, nourished and maintained in all religions to give prime importance to male dominance in all walks of life and that includes diety poojas, mantras, slokas, and sangeethams. Saint Meera broke through that some centuries ago. Jansi Rani fought for the free of India. We had male vidwans who refused to play for women singers. All those are histories and statistics. We are living in a dynamic age where equal status must be given to all genders. In U.S, north Indians believe that Bhajans are supposed to be sung and lead by females. Males take back stage just to support their women folks. Bangalore Ramani was an exception to south India; although sampradaya bhajans are still the monopoly of male leaders. Where am I going wrong in my statement?

srkris
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Post by srkris »

nathikan wrote:My point was that there were classes of Brahmins who were excluded from normal life, forget about the pursuit of knowledge, and that your view of "every brahmin" implicitly takes "brahmin" as male, not to mention ignores not only the obvious but the rich contempt for that assertion evidenced in our classical literature. I'm afraid your assertion of knowledge doesn't impress me.
Women (atleast brahmin women) in the old times were not prohibited from acquiring scientific or other knowledge... though they may not have been allowed to use it to earn their livelihood. I didnt therefore exclude women.

coolkarni
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Post by coolkarni »

We are living in a dynamic age where equal status must be given to all genders.
My My !!!
How time Flies !!!
It looks like just yesterday when I used to admire the wisdom in this statement ..
Next to the wound , what women make best , is the bandage !!!
::):cool:
Last edited by coolkarni on 22 Feb 2008, 21:28, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

''''and then bondage :)
bondage = spiritual or romantic link
as also making the victim a 'bonded slave' :)

We have the expression in Tamil:
nOyum nOykku marunthum
(the disease as well as its cure)

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »


Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEhw6kzoKlA

A song written by Dr. Abdul kalam presented in carnatic style....with a viruttam!

Secular and patriotic

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks Shankar/Suji

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Very nice to hear of another secular composer and songs about Gandhiji at that!
Ravi, you have cited a few howlers from the Trivandrum edition of the paper before. Here is another: smaraNe bEku (bEku=is necessary) and not bekku (which means a cat!).
It is nice when one pays extra attention when it comes to writing down lyrics. I can understand the problem with old songs and usages. New songs should be easier.

Suji,
I was so keen on listening to Kalam's composition but was disappointed. My computer cannot play it...
Last edited by arasi on 23 Feb 2008, 09:21, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Our bekku is quite thrilled :)

On such lighter note, all this exact context-free transliteration schemes make life difficult for poor cross language skilled person like me. Atleast if not for them I can blame it on the lack of transliteration standards :D We indians have it quite tough though, with all the different CM languages, expectations of perfect diction or perfect written representation in English of context-sensitive indian languages, combined with lack of certain sounds in some languages, it does not take much to look foolish. ;)

On top of all this, my pet peeve is, the reviewers in Hindu ( not the above one ) using all sorts of CM terminologies willy nilly without bothering to explain them. I can imagine the average CM rasikas' eyes glossing over or get the feeling that CM is all complicated. May be Hindu should publish an explanation of the Frequently Used CM Buzz words once in a while. ( here is a made up one: "Swirling sancharas of Shankarabaranam in the tarasthyai, fine balance of gana-naya, patandara suddham with raga rakti bhava topped with ikara-akara karvais and a janta korvai combined with the percussionist's taka, gumuki, pharans and chaapus made for a grand musical experience." :P )

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

I am back on this thread. Thanks to all for making well-reasoned posts and continuing lively discussions. I will catch up one day at a time.

Sbala, RShankar, VK, Arasi, et al,

Regarding the related issues of "censorship" and "quality of a vaggeyakara", that is a tough matter indeed. Let me say that I am not a proponent of a strict "censorship" system that will inevitably stifle creativity. At the same time, I think every once in a while a field of endeavor benefits from an "internal reordering/restructuring". In this regard, my suggestion is as follows:

Develop a system of acknowledgement/accreditation rather than censorship: This system would essentially consist of developing a set of criteria (based on consideration of previous scholarly musicological works, works of previous composers, and knowledge built up by modern musicologists) that can be used to evaluate a vaggeyakara and offer an "endorsement/accreditation" that his/her works are of good quality and will make a valuable contribution to classical music. It need not be mandatory for every composer to go through this, and there should be no public announcement or record that X person was "rejected". Neither should it be used by "accredited" individual X to make personal attacks on "unaccredited" individual Y. This accreditation also need not be permanent, but can be revisited, say every 10 years. It can also be done for past composers.

VK has nicely condensed some of the qualities of the composer as described by Sharangadeva, but even more importantly the compositions should be considered. Do they represent a smooth integration of music and poetry ? Do they pay attention to prosody ? Do they feature embellishments that enhance both the music and the lyrics ? Do they indeed represent classical music, or are they better categorized as bhajans/semi-classical/purely devotional music ? Do they represent a substantial/sufficient number of high-quality compositions, or only a profuse number of mediocre ones ? How much do they incorporate the vast musical knowledge and culture accumulated across length and breadth of India ? Do they get across the chosen themes in some refined manner ? And of course, some standards of decency and decorum as commonly accepted in public discourse (the sung word should be no different from the spoken or written word in standards of public decency).

Some of these criteria are fairly personal and can take some to develop let alone apply, which is why a quite large "panel" is needed. The key is that this "panel" must be a distinguished one, so that the accreditation will have good value and meaning. This system must also be non-bureaucratic and should not be vulnerable to cronyism (again, a large panel will solve this problem). The members can be anonymous to the public, and even to each other. It does not need to meet at one place on a regular basis. As the IT revolution is already happening, such experts can work independently, reflect upon the composer's works, and turn their opinion quite independently without bureaucratic nonsense. The panel should consist of knowledgeable scholars in Indian music (let us say some percentage of professors in university music departments all over India), "eminent" musicians (both senior and junior), composers of already recognized standing, knowledgeable and well-known rasiks.

This system should also not be oriented towards "numerical ratings". I believe that high art cannot be rated in numbers. It should be an overall recommendation based upon an overall picture of aesthetic satisfaction/dissatisfaction even if one does not agree with specific aspects here and there. Note also that it is not an "endorsement" that each and every composition of the individual can be expected to be of the same exact quality, it is an accreditation of the overall ability shown by the composer to maintain standards of high art and make a valuable contribution to classical music.

SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 23 Feb 2008, 21:57, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
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Post by sbala »

SR - I completely agree with the system of accreditation. Censorship is probably too strong at this stage in CM. I would also include competitions for young composers. Too much importance is given to performance in CM and other areas are being neglected. The process that every top notch performer had to go through to reach this level has to be applied to composers and other direct contributors to CM whenever applicable. If that means testing the ability of the composer, I find nothing wrong with it. Infact, I will vote everytime in favour of such measures. It will definitely be a step forward in creating a vibrant system that can produce exceptional composers.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Rajeshnat et al,

Your discussion on "implementation" issues is very important. Let me offer my thoughts as of now.

Three interrelated key-words/phrases in my mind are "Communication", "Moderation", and "Shift in Educational Process". Let me try to elaborate:

Communication: One thing I feel that CM can certainly improve upon, is communication, whether it is between the musician and the audience, the composer and the audience (through the musician), or between a concert reviewer and the readers. In the current concert paddhati, there is a long "song list" performed back to back. Everyone claps and goes home. I have seen only a few musicians - e.g. Vijay Shiva, KJ Yesudas, Rama Varma - take a minute or two to communicate substantially with the audience about the composition, its significance, and its special attributes. I think this is particularly important when introducing new themes and new compositions. It does not have to be a long speech. This could be done before or after the composition is sung. For pointing out special embellishments, it may be better to revisit them *after* the formal performance of the piece. For musicians who are not the greatest verbal communicators, it can even be done by a compere/rasik who has a close understanding of the composer (or of course by the composer themselves). Furthermore, why not place one's compositions on a website, such as this distinguished forum here, and make this known during the performance, so that rasiks can go back and reflect further on the work presented. Thus, I feel a significant divergence from the current "dish-it-out" approach is necessary.

Moderation: This can take many forms. For example, it is not necessary that a musician have an entire concert devoted only to secular themes. They can be interspersed with the usual compositions. Again, communication is essential when the "new" and "secular" theme/composition is presented. This will not only engage the audience very easily but also prevent any feeling that the musician/composer is on a "mission" to supplant and replace the existing paradigm. Similarly, the musician must gauge the audience and its diversity. For example, if one is giving a recital in Ahmedabad or Mumbai, a composition on Dhirubhai Ambani or Chhatrapati Shivaji may be greatly enjoyed at once, whereas if one is singing in one of the more conservative Chennai areas, one may want to choose a different composition (say on advaita as embodied by Swami Chinmayananda). Sometimes one can combine the "bhakti" theme with the "secular". E.g. my original ragamalika on great emperors/kings of Indian civilization drew purely from history (in the modern sense) and did not include anything from "puranic itihaas". Later I added two charanams on Rama and Krishna at the beginning, probably a wise method of transitioning from the religious to the secular.

Shift in Educational Process: I think secular themes need to be embedded (in a thoughtful way) into music education. There are two general types of music learners - the first is the person who intends to perform publicly on a regular basis, and the second who is intent upon acquiring proficiency only as a personal desire. In the former case, I believe they should undergo both a university-style training (from an academic musicologist) as well as a "practical" apprenticeship with a well-known performing musician (in some cases both requirements can be met at once). In the latter case, I think the person should definitely be taught by a teacher who has gone through the university-style training, to impart the necessary rigor and principle-oriented approach towards performance and appreciation of classical music. In addition they should feel free to take additional training from other musicians. I feel the academic environment will be much better to intriduce secular themes in the musical education process and make them more easily accepted. Academic musicologists tend to be more open to "new" ideas and are relatively free of religious restrictions and traditions. I am not generalizing to one and all but only suggesting overall trends as observed by myself.

SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 23 Feb 2008, 22:36, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

And since the Trinity's works, by dominating CM, necessarily ate/eat into the playing time of other compositions, including Tamil ones, identifying the Trinity's language preferences as one of the causes for Tamil's exclusion does not appear far fetched to me
Vijay, it may not have been apparent from my 'systemic' ramblings, but we are on the same page on this one, as long as your point is a description of the concert scene in Madras in the early to mid 20th century. As I wrote before, there was a whole sequence of events that provided the fertile ground for the dependent evolution of Rasikas' tastes & preferences, and the availability of compositions from the Trinity. Add to that all the specific players and social circumstances described by CML and Arasi. Once the CM system got into an equilibrium state with that 'tight-lock' among rasikas, sabha management and perfomers, it tended to stay in that state until some external disturbance of sufficient magnitude caused some chaos. The system then settles in to a new equilibrium. That is how I view the effect of the 'Tamil Isai Movement' as that disturbance of sufficient magnitude and the resulting new equilibrium where singing a few tamil songs is accepted by that triumvarate of Rasikas-Sabha Secretaries-Performers. You need another disturbance of sufficient magnitude for a new equilibrium that includes Secular compositions.
The fact that the trinity were contemperaneous is in itself a statistical quirk. To add another set of equally qualified composers in the same time period and in the same language would compound it manifold. And if indeed they did, that their work was, for some reason, never discovered, even more so. And we must remember that Tamil composers from that era - be it GKB or Arunachala Kavi - while not as popular as the Trinity, were not unknown either. And in my very guarded opinion, composers of great merit but nowhere near the Trinity.
Following are just some comments on your comments to illustrate my 'systemic' analysis of this situation. Just to be sure, these comments are not to undermine the compositional genius of the Trinity ( who am I to do that? and also I do personally think they were geniuses ) nor I am carrying water for some unknown/less known Tamil composers. In fact it is outside of such value and aesthetic judgement of the Trinity. It is all about how to think about the Past based on historical narratives which are by definition very compressed.

What you call as a statistical quirk is really not a statistical quirk with respect to their birth and living comtemporaneously. Why? Because, there are always geniuses living contemporaneously. In the whole population mix, that is not an infinitessimal probability. Addressing them as Trinity by grouping these three together is something that later generations did for whatever reasons they saw fit. That is what gives us the illusion of a statistical quirk.

Another related point is: Our current value judgement like 'merit', 'relative difference in quality' etc, need not have anything to do with the reasons for winners and losers of the past. Let us take for granted that winners win out based on merit. But that does not necessarily mean losers lost out because their works were inferior. We are all susceptible to that implied and unconscious bias, that is the 'survivor bias' with History. The environment and the multitude of other causes prevalent at that time caused the losers' works not to be propagated to the future generations with as much vigor as the winners. That is the only thing we can infer from compressed Historical narratives. Is it possible that they did not rise to the prominence because they were inferior? Yes, definitely but a few centuries later, lack of any specific details, only if our definition of 'inferior' is same as 'whether they survived or not'. That is basically a cyclical statement and by definition it is true. This is the flip side of 'survivor bias'. We can call it the 'loser bias'.

I am stating all this abstract stuff to just describe one point about these kinds of things. I started in this 'complex system' way of looking at the past when you stated in passing "[ lack of Tamil preemminence is a ] result of a remarkable efflorescence of compositional genius in other languages". The key words are 'remarkable efflorescne of compositional genius'. The past does not necessarily produce losers based on our current view of 'genius' let alone the definition of 'genius' prevalent at that time. It is a result of the complex ecosystem prevalent at that time consisting social, political and cultural sub-ecosystems interacting in complex ways as they always do. Not any different from how things happen today about today's matters.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

VK, just summing up the remaining points of difference here:

1) Whether the trinity's popularity reflects some kind of survivor's bias: I cannot accept it in the Trinity's case. There is no doubt in my mind that the Trinity's works can be judged "superior" without reference to history and on musical merit alone. However I agree that this is a debatable point.

2) Whether the Trinity's contemporaneousness was a statistical improbability: The Trinity may be a later term but that in fact, asserts the remarkable nature of the phenomenon. However, this takes us back to the first point wrt the merit of the Trinity's works. If we accept that the Trinity represents a survivor's bias, then it becomes less a statistical quirk and more a convenient coinage of propogandists.

The limited point in my original post was that the popularity of Trinity's works influenced the language mix on the cutcheri stage to the disadvantage of Tamil. Whether the Trinity deserved their popularity or whether that was just a fortuitous consequence of various socio-political factors is something I did not originally intend to comment on although, in retrospect, my tone possibly betrayed my deep reverence for their works. We often take it for granted that the Trinity was great and any suggestion to the contrary causes an intense discomfort. Perhaps that was the reason for my belabored and, possibly, indignant responses.

In any case, I learnt a lot from your insightful views as a result besides which, it afforded some pleasant diversions from stitching together a painful proposal for nights on end. So, all in all, I am indebted!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijay, Understood your positions and view points and I respect those.
In fact, if I drop my forcefully worn system thinking hat and be a normal and regular rasika of the Trinity that I indeed am, I would be with you toe to toe, 100%.

Also, what I have been referring to as 'Survivor Bias' is about History itself ( which applies to all of History where there is a compressed narrative ). I do not mean to question the 'deservedness' of the popularity of the Trinity or imply that popularity was somehow 'accidental'. Who am I to do that? And secondly, I have the utmost respect and reverence for them and consider them great as well. Needless to say, I am a big fan.

( I also edited my post above to make my disclaimers even more strong that what I wrote is not in any way to be construed as Anti Trinity view points. )

vijay
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Post by vijay »

VK I too perfectly understand that your views are not anti-trinty but for the sake of scientific argument. Unfortunately the devotee in me cannot see reason when the trinity is concerned...

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Ah, such a gentlemanly discussion !

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

If I had not been exposed to CM in the context of the Trinity and if one were to hand over to me the kritis of theirs, I would just be bored reading through them since they have less than average literary merit or even philosophical (I am not downplaying bhakti here !). Since I do not understand Telugu, as I go through the translations of T and SS I do not get excited about any of their expressions (perhaps there is intrinsic literary beauty which only a native Telugu may enjoy!). On the otherhand when I read Bharati or Kamban or vaLLuvar I am impressed by not just the language but also the depth of ideas. I am not thrilled reading MD's lyrics (minus the music) since they are just a mega string of bahuvrIhis. My knowledge of sanskrit is adequate to understand and analyze them. When I think of kalidasa, bhavabuti, bhAravi (let alone valmiki or vyasa) I would rank MD's literary appeal below the bottom 10 percentile. Pl do not misunderstand: I am not putting down the Trinity. On the otherhand when the Trinity songs are rendered in CM I am transported to a different world. It is CM that is the magic and not the words in their lyric I derive more bhakti reading a stotra composed by shankaracharya than simply 'reading' a verse of MD. The sonorous sequence of words in a sahasranamam is more evocative than the durita kaalam of MD (again minus the music!). So I often wonder what drags me to the music of the Trinity. I reach the heights of ecsatasy during certain nerevals and emotive expressions knowing fully well the meaning therein is just blase. Why can't the same magic be applied to lyrics which have greater depth and philosophical import? The other day I was listening to 'telisiraama' sung by a noname artiste(certainly no MMI :) But then I was transported into a dreamworld by the rhythm and melody which will I get if the song had been 'veRRi eTTu dhikkum eTTa..' (of bhArti) in the same raga and rhythm? certainly not! There is one and only telisirama whether I understand the meaning or not! I think it is this spirit of CM which was captured by the Trinity that we laud! No amount of secular or other linguistic compositions can capture it until we decode and find out what makes them tick! I for one woud like to know....

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I think it is this spirit of CM which was captured by the Trinity that we laud! No amount of secular or other linguistic compositions can capture it until we decode and find out what makes them tick! I for one woud like to know....
Good post CML. And the essence of what you are wondering is captured by the above sentence and is very much relevant to this thread. My first thought is 'It is the music ( melody and rhythm ) stupid!' but then I get a feeling it is not just the music. If so, what is it? It is worth exploring.

If I take an inventory of my top 100 songs (in all genres, Indian classical, Indian non-classical, western etc.), 50% of them are in languages that I do not understand the meaning at all. But if I do take the pain to understand the meaning, the benefit I get from the song increases ( usually ).

For example, these three hindi film songs are definitely in my top 20 of non-classical songs:

Jo Wada Kiya Wo Nibhana Padega ( tajmehal )
aaj phir jeene ke tamana hai ( guide )
Mausam hai Aashiqana (pakiza)

All these years I did not know the meaning of the lyrics of these songs but the sound of the words and how they were put together are attractive and of course, the melody is the primary attraction. That was good enough. A punjabi friend of mine was quite puzzled that I like the song 'Mausam hai Aashiqana' so much but I do not know the meaning at all and he took the pains to give me word for word meaning. Fortunately, in this case, it only enhanced my enjoyment of this song.

So there are three layers: The music ( tune and beat ), the sonorous aspects of the words themselves: (The rhyming, juxtaposition of suitable words etc. ) and the meaning carried by the words.

So it looks like one can enjoy a piece of music with just the first two but the third one is a nice luxury but a significant one for many rasikas. Trinity's success is probably in excelling in all three, so that people can enjoy them in piece parts and also in full. If excellence in one of these three is a rare commodity, I guess the synthesis and synergy of all those three are even rarer. The Trinity excelled in that fusing together of those three aspects to synthesize something that has withstood the test of time.

Here is a simple framework that I just put together:

The rasa of the meaning is at one end. (M)
The rasa of the tune is at one end (T)
The words are in the middle.(W)

If they all match together well aesthetically, people can enjoy the song in different combinations.

T
T-W
T-W-M
W-M ( this is more about poetry and literature )
T-M (when the music and the phrasing carries the meaning at some high abstract level.)

etc.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

During the 50's Hindi songs made vast inroads into the TN Film world. Most in TN knew no Hindi but the music of Naushad/Burman/... in the voice of Lata/Rafi/Mukesh/ stole the hearts of the people. In fact the cine directors tried to imitate those tunes with tamil lyrics some of which became popular due to the melody of MLV/Jikki/Bhanumati etc., Many of those songs are still popular! PSivan indeed fashioned many of his songs after T which also had intrinsic linguistic merit and hence got accepted in concerts (primarily due to the efforts of Kalki/Sadashivam/..) The die-hards however would not sing them in the early days! But they would sing them in rural areas and temples where they attracted huge audience only through Tamil songs. There have been cases in Madras where the Patrons have walked out once a Tamil song was commenced :) Hence it is not all that non-political.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

CML,
An illuminating post from you. I think, minus any bias, one has to agree with what you say. How many would voice it, is another thing!
VK,
Great! You would know why I would put meaning in the middle (at the very center). After all, whether you understand it fully or not, that is what makes the words flow and find their right places in a song.Since my songs come out of me with the tune, I can say that those which flow out of me in a specially inspired moment somehow end up being musically pleasing too...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

arasi
That is the sign of a 'uttama vaggeyakara'. The lyric being born with the music. In the case of the Trinity most often the lyrics were born with the music which is why we cannot separate the two. There are indeed examples even among them where sometimes the songs are not smooth and you can tell that those songs were contrived. Herein is the difference between songs which are 'born' compare to those whcih are set to music later by somebody else.

I have heard that the musical idioms came naturally to Mali and he was never taught! If we self-analyze how we think and construct sentences and talk we can visualize how a gifted musician can think in the 'language of the music' which is precisely what the Trinity did! That would be a rational explanation debunking the invocation of any divina machina :) We all have some inherent potential in that direction inside us but are hesitent to explore them out of shyness or fear of external ridicule. Aren't we all great 'bath-room' singers :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arasi: Yes, I do understand. Songs ( meaningful words and music ) come to you and out of you as a whole, so the separation into the three layers is unnecessary and will be unnatural. Also, you are a different type of Vaggeyakara than what SR talks about which is more a conscious effort in sculpting the words and music.

Also, words are carriers of meaning and music is a carrier of meaning too. In that sense, 'meaning' is the predominant thing and is at the very center. Well said.

When the musical meaning as perceived by the listener and the lyrical meaning are in phase, the rasika's enjoyment of the song is multifold.

Most people would tend to say that musical meaning is abstract whereas the lyrical meaning is more direct. That is probably true. But the lyrical meaning seems more direct because we use that million times more and we are all trained from childhood to associate words with abstract meaning and it comes naturaly to us.

Take for example the word 'Bird'. 'Bird' itself does not exist in the real world, there are specific types of birds, Cuckoo, Sparrow, Eagle etc. and there are specific instances of Cuckoos and sparrows and eagles but where is a Bird? We have a certain set of 'attributes' of what 'birdness' is and associate that as the meaning of the word 'Bird'. In that sense 'Bird' is quite abstract but language is so second nature to us that we do not need to go through all that 'association' process to relate to it.

Music carries such an abstract meaning. Ragas to some extent codify that meaning as a rasa but there may be much more to it. Carrying the above analogy, the raga is like 'Bird' and each song in a raga is like a specific type of bird, say Cuckoo. And each time a song is sung in a specific raga, it is a unique thing, like a specific instance of that bird, like 'the Cuckoo XYZ that is sitting there in that tree'.

Vaggeyakaras and to some extent Rasikas, in varying degrees, can tap into the abstract meaning carried by the Raga in a more direct form like the way 'Bird' carries directly that abstract meaning. For the rest of us, the various songs and their performances are necessary to get at the same meaning.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

On the mark VK
A raga is just like a nonspecific Bird
When MS sings the Bird becomes a 'kOkilaM' (cuckoo)
When she sings hariharaputram it becomes 'vasanthakokilam' :)

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

VK,
vasanthakokilam wrote:...than what SR talks about which is more a conscious effort in sculpting the words and music.
The seed of all creativity is "inspirational". However, all forms of art, especially classical art, have certain "rules" and "parameters". These exist for a specific reason, i.e. to channel that creativity into a most productive and aesthetically pleasing form, not to restrict it.

I do not believe at all that there was a huge difference between, e.g. the composition process of Tyagaraja and Dikshitar. Both must have been "inspired" to imagine the seed of the composition in at least a crude form. Thereafter, both (in Tyagaraja's case, the disciples were also probably involved) would have "polished" the compositions. Both Tyagaraja and Dikshitar must certainly have realized that music and words flow together in CM to create a single whole, and must have paid conscious attention to both when creating the final form of a composition. A composition like "sogasuga mrdangatalamu" makes clear to me the conscious effort that Tyagaraja made with his compositions.

SR

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

SR, I do see your point, though we do not know if there was a mixture of spontaneous songs and 'worked on' songs with either one. The one aspect that bolsters either side of the argument is the various templates under which the songs can be classified. It can go either way. One can say the various archetypical structures of both MD and T point to a 'polishing' but the fact that such structures exist and they have composed many such songs in them alerady, gives them the space to spontaneously fit newer songs...

I find the following with Thyagaraja's songs, for example. The various Desadi tala krithis in smaller and scalar ragas follow a template. Given the Aro/Ava of such an uncomplicated non-vakra raga and the lyrics, one can take a shot at how the song will go. It is fun to do and see how close one gets to the actual song.

In one sense, I can consider those templates as codification of the rules and restrictions that you mention, a 'macro' of sorts.

If such melodic and structural templates are deeply ingrained and internalized, then I do not see why the same facilities that extempore speakers/poets employ would not apply to song creation. Taking one rather 'from left field' example that comes to my mind now, Lloyd Bentsen's "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy: I knew Jack Kennedy; Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy.". That was on the fly. Sorry, I do not mean to compare LB with T or MD, but I hope you get my drift. Emtemporaneous poetry, with all the rules of poetry in tact, is a tradition in India, isn't it?. It is quite amazing when such a thing is done well, especially in a back and forth manner where immediate creation is mandatory.

The genius is in taking extemporaneous outpourings of poetic words and casting them into those internalized melodic and rhythmic structures.

Again, I do not mean to discount the polishing aspects but just putting forth a possible hypotheis on how 'finished' compositions can come out extemporaneously.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, Nice..:)

vainika
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Post by vainika »

Here's a short short film (on a secular theme) produced by UK-based filmmaker Abhi Arumbakkam, for which I provided the music background.
http://www.channel4.com/fourdocs/film/f ... p?id=67305

I realize this is only tangential to the discussion of secular themes in CM, but I found the film very moving and thought some of you might too...
Last edited by vainika on 20 Mar 2008, 16:52, edited 1 time in total.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Ramki,

Thanks for sharing. Very unobtrusive, but soothing music in the background! I did not get the purpose behind the mini-documentary, but that is not the theme of this thread, so I do not want to digress.

Ravi

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Very nice vainika:
A poignant story and the music is totally unobstrusive yet appropriate. Did you have any particular raga in mind while playing?

arasi
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Post by arasi »

I can't get it. Please, could someone help? I know, my computer is growing old with me...

arunk
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Post by arunk »

I think it is kIravANi.

Not surprisingly I can relate to this a lot. I too know one of my grandmothers only from old, faded black and white portraits. My memories/connections to her are via those, and flashes of reflections of her facial features that I see at times in my relatives. I remember long time ago gazing at my peacefully sleeping child, how her forehead+eyes part for a second starkly reminded me of a woman I have never seen, and will never see in life :) Strange - how our feelings work.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 20 Mar 2008, 22:46, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

arasi - perhaps you need Quicktime player?

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Sorry arasi
It cannot be downloaded but it is a windows media file which plays in your windowmedia player!
Arun
These are very sensitive feeliings which provoke pain and pleasure at the same time. They are in our genes and we should always be respectful of their memories and the sacrifices they may have made on our behalf. Hence the pit^Ri karmas are very meaningful which everyone should observe! it is sad there are many in the present young generations who do not care for their immediate parents even when they are alive....

I could bot sense kIravaaNi, but will wait to hear from Ramki....

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

very nice Vainika.

I sense Kiravani too.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

It is sure kIravANi..

the moment I started watching this video the image of a potrait of my Grandmother hanging at my home in India came to my mind. I was only 7 months when she passed away..not sure even if she had seen me..such a question came to my mind today...

vainika
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Post by vainika »

cmlover wrote:... but will wait to hear from Ramki....
CML, confirmed; though I confess my heart sank at your question -> was it that hard to identify? :( If, on the other hand, your question was about why I chose this rAga for the theme, the answer is I didn't. The filmmaker found it on the web while googling for kIravANI and asked to use an excerpt.
Last edited by vainika on 21 Mar 2008, 02:30, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

No problem with your kIravANi at all, but I was so absorbed in the story going with the music and was wondering about your accompaniment accordingly. I also looked at the other videos of the artiste ; they were all nice and very sensitive. I wish he had more on that 91year-old lady with an appropriate accompaniment fromyou....

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Vainika => Vaaggeyakaaraa! Nicely done although one has to strain to hear it against the voice-over...

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