Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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cienu
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 11:40

Post by cienu »

vgvindan

Your point of view is very important. I appeal to you not to become emotional and quit the forum. Your views have been read with great interest by all forumites for all these years. Please reconsider.

Sangeet Rasik
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Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

cienu wrote:vgvindan

Your point of view is very important. I appeal to you not to become emotional and quit the forum. Your views have been read with great interest by all forumites for all these years. Please reconsider.
I second that. VGV is a valuable contributor especially in context of Tyagaraja compositions. I hope he will reconsider his decision. Discussion threads are meant for discussion, not for decision.

SR

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

VGV,
'The passion behind their poetry ', as you aptly stated, which you have in plenty, should make you stay around and educate many of us who recognize your erudition in, and devotion to CM, especially when it comes to nAda brahmam...

meena
Posts: 3326
Joined: 21 May 2005, 13:57

Post by meena »

VGV
Come on be a sport!
In the past u have reconsidered ur decision , do pl. reconsider again. Thanks

Pubic forums are platform for healthy discussions / debates, also has its ups / downs.
At times its like one disfunctional family :rolleyes:


Lighter note:
THE go-mukha vyAghras
we don't wanna see u all quit too!
Keep ur fingers crossed that this thread now will not be locked/moved ;) :P

Never a dull day here!
Last edited by meena on 08 Feb 2008, 12:23, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
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Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 08:56

Post by sbala »

kkumar29 wrote:sbala,

I agree with what you say. However the two ideal worlds are not mutually exclusive. The person seeking the truth can also appreciate the beauty and the person appreciating and immersing in the beauty can do so knowing fully that the beauty they are immersing in is not the complete truth.
K. Kumar.
It is largely mutually exclusive because it would be very hard (not impossible) to find subjects or persons that can stand up to the highest standards of Truth, Beauty and Good.

A strong rationalist has a strict definition of Truth. If any assertion does not stand up to that standards of Truth, it fails. There is no room for emotion here. This is the approach taken by subjects like Mathematics and there is nothing wrong in applying the same approach to Music. But, that does not lead to a complete understanding.

Same is the case with those living in the world of Beauty. They have strict views on what is Beauty and what is not. Truth is a weaker notion in this world. I'm not saying it is absent but it is definitely not as strong as it is in the Truth world. Someone made the point about artistes wearing necklaces and other adornments when singing pancharatna. I believe this is just an illusion. For the artistes, the ideal is Beauty and not Truth. They have no trouble reconciling such actions. Its only those who have different ideals who see that as wrong.

The third ideal is Good. Again, Beauty and Truth are weaker notions here. Those who live in this space are only concerned that any development has to be Good. Here, the notion of Good is very strong. It implies that even the slightest risk of something bad happening would cause people here to reject that notion. When VK (I'm using names for only illustrations and not to air my personal prejudices) raised the objection to the statement "Tyagaraja capitalizing on Bhakti", he felt it was offensive knowing that such a statement can be cause harm. While I agreed with him, you also need to look at who made the statement and the perspective he is coming from. From a strict rational perspective, it is not at all a wrong statement. I also apologised to SR simply because I made a statement that hurt someone and I could not reconcile with my own standards that I have to live up to while living in this space. This should not be interpreted as a sign of weakness.

All these are equally valid ideals. No one ideal is complete in itself and lead to a complete understanding of the subject.

And I completely agree with vgv that blind faith exists everywhere. Mathematicians assume certain axioms to be true when they set out to prove something. It is also blind faith. Many axioms have been proven wrong over time. Computer Science, another field of rational thinking, had blindly believed that the binary search algorithm was correct. After all, it is working fine and the logic seems flawless. Recently, it was found to contain a bug. It is only when we encounter a person from another world, that such sparks fly and agreement is virtually impossible. Just as it takes massive amounts of energy to launch a rocket, it would take events of great consequences to shift them to a different world.

This is why I say we should not fall for just rational arguments. All these are great ideals but each of us will choose sides depending on what we identify with strongly.

I also appeal to VGV to reconsider.
Last edited by sbala on 08 Feb 2008, 12:52, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

In conclusion all I can say is that there is always resistance to change. In any change process there are seven stages (Five if you follow a different school of thought) and first one is always denial. I guess most of the responders are currently in this stage. Slowly and surely they will progress through the other stages and will ultimately reach the internalization stage.

K. Kumar.
Though this makes theoretical sense, one has to be careful about the reality behind such things since not all changes 'make' it. These steps are not a 'prescription' for any change, but is at best 'description' about succesful changes. For every such successful change, there may have been several that were attempted but never took.

sbala
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Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 08:56

Post by sbala »

SR,
That was an excellent list of criteria though it could scare away some of our composers. I do feel such stringent quality measures are essential. This takes care of the composer. We might have to do something at the level of the composition itself. I would also add ratings on secular themes or genres just like how movies or TV channels do (Universal, Children, PG, Adults Only and of course, Militiant Atheism :)..

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Bala, I do not want to revisit the Thyagaraja discussion here but your characterization/summary of that discussion as an example of 'Good' is not correct in this context ( you have not considered my subsequent clarification on that ). But that is not important for the framework you are describing, so I will leave it at that.

Back to the framework, I understand what you are getting at. "Why can't we equate emotional and rational thoughts on the same point in the value judgement scale. Why this apparent superiority of rationality?' In this artistic discussion that is quite an appropriate question to ask. I am sure one of you can relate it to the main point of the thread.

But going off topic a bit, I am not sure why you want to call Truth and Beauty mutually exclusive and something not to be found together commonly. What is your take on the principle of 'Occum's razor'. It is an aesthetic principle that scientists commonly invoke. Second, many a mathematicians marvel at the beauty of the proof itself and how slick it is. Those are value and aesthetic judgements about the products of mathematics beyond correctness. Also, haven't you marveled at the beauty of a succinctly (and recursively) expressed LISP program ;) that explodes into a beautiful Manderbolt Set. Aesthetics in programming is well known. Same is true of many scientific theories. I do agree that in those realms, correctness comes first. They do not have much use for a beautiful but incorrect theory.

I guess this framework, mutually exclusive or not, can be used for judging compositions since they can be mapped to the the well known triad Syntax/Semantics/Pragmatics

coolkarni
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Joined: 22 Nov 2007, 06:42

Post by coolkarni »

VGV
As a comeback specialist of sorts :D, I can only exhort you through these fine words of Robert Anderson
In every marriage more than a week old, there are grounds for divorce.
The trick is to continue and find grounds for marriage
Last edited by coolkarni on 08 Feb 2008, 20:41, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

sbala and VK,
Fascinating, and as you have guessed, all beyond me:)
Bala, Truth beauty, beauty truth, not only in poetry but in this real life of ours and of course, I see more truth in beauty than in the ornaments or vestments of performers.It is the beauty in their music that I seek and it perhaps gets me closer to truth.
As for rating composers :), sbala, thanks for speaking for our lot. These are impossible standards and measures! When I do think about such a test, I don't suppose it would be a panel of composers who would be judges--but scholars. I am afraid some of them may not have the empathy to assess composers. Just as those who are experts in the theory of music don't always perform as well as they are supposed to!

VK,
By the way, what is this well known (!) triad Syntax/Semantics/Pragmatics?

kaapi
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Joined: 05 Jun 2005, 14:32

Post by kaapi »

VK,

I think in one word it is elegance. But it is not easy to define elegance in any art form. For instance why a film succeeds in box office and another bombs is still a mystery. Similarly why the same composition becomes a hit only with a particular singer is also a mystery.
A CM composition is the blending together of many distinct components like the theme, prosody,raga,tala into an elegant final product.
It will be very difficult to predict which particular blend will become popular.At best we can analyse those that have achieved fame.

coolkarni
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Post by coolkarni »

hsuvarna
listen here to the greatest ghazal singer of all time-kl saigal
http://rapidshare.com/files/90162676/babul_mora.mp3

and kishori amonkar singing this in a concert
http://rapidshare.com/files/90166391/10 ... Mora-1.mp3

kaapi
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Joined: 05 Jun 2005, 14:32

Post by kaapi »

Mr.Govindan,
I am surprised that you have decided to quit the forum. If you so feel quit from this thread. There is good work to be done on the exposition of Thyagaraja kIrtanas in English.
In the earlier times in joint families when there was a irreconcilable differances between family members they just stopped talking to each other. They did not go out of the house.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

Dear vgv,

Your service (all aspects for it) is an important part of the cm community, and the rasikas community here. Please reconsider your decision.

Thanks
Arun

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

coolkarni wrote
As a comeback specialist of sorts ,:D
:lol: Thanks Kji for the sense of humor on this.

Yes, VGV, why quit the forum? If you do not like to read about Thyagaraja's name dragged into these kind of discussions, just quit the thread/discussion and not the forum.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

arasi wrote:VK,
By the way, what is this well known (!) triad Syntax/Semantics/Pragmatics?
Arasi: I was trying to draw a parallel to Bala's framework to that from Linguistics. Not sure if it strictly follows, but similar arguments are made in that context as well. Here is a link that introduces these three concepts: http://www.trinity.edu/cbrown/language/ ... tions.html

I was going with the parallels: syntax defines the truth, semantics defines the meaning behind the syntax ( 'beauty' ) and pragmatics defines the context specific value judgement ( such as 'good'. ) One can question if beauty is semantics or pragmatics. In one sense assessment of 'beauty' and assessment of 'good or bad' are both context specific value judgements but beauty is more of an 'enjoyment or appreciatory' value judgement where as 'good vs bad' is a evaluatory value judgement.

These parallels may be a stretch but while evaluating compositions, which is what Bala is after, these three play a role. But in arts, sometimes stepping outside of syntax ( truth ) is considered artistic license and so in that sense it can be beautiful in the semantic sense and good in the pragmatic sense.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Sangeet Rasik wrote:Sir,
hsuvarna wrote:I really dont get you at all. To raise the stature of MD you refute Tyagaraja. Tomorrow to refute another composer, you raise the stature of Tyagarja. You can write about the philosphics and advaita content of MD. You can list some lines instead of MD where in you feel really good about him.
Perhaps in order to "get" me, you might have to consider that my purpose here is not to "refute" or to "insult" any composer. CM is not a "zero-sum game" in which one has to be raised in order to insult the other.

SR
SR, I am writing this after some reflection and whether to even post this or not. But here it is.

You have made similar clarifications before and those who have followed from the beginning may get all that and read what you write with that context in mind. And I am sure a very careful critical analysis of all your posts also will reveal that.

But here is the rub. Your style of writing can be interpreted on first glance the way hsuarna interpreted it ( though not necessarily in such black and white terms ). For example when you refer to 'making Tyagaraja to be some kind of "super-composer" or 'not any "super-quality" of Tyagaraja's compositions', etc. you are operating in a grey area. I can readily see how you can offer the explanation that it is not all about Thyagaraja but the way History and subsequent generations have portrayed Thyagaraja and you are addressing those. But the problem is, people read between the lines and interpret that you imply that the 'Current position of Thyagaraja in CM practise is undeserved' while the main point you are making is 'MD's position in CM practise should be higher than what it is now'.

Just a thought as to why you are harassed ;) to explain yourself again and again.

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

I don't understand why there should be an agency or "censor board" keeping a check on the compositions that enter the CM world. Do we not trust performing artistes to pick worthy compositions of the lot to sing? Do we not trust ourselves to attend concerts by performers who do sing quality compositions?

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Thanks, Bilahari!
And, I was dreading the censor board!
Just kidding...

sbala
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Post by sbala »

VK
I will think about your points and respond as I'm travelling. But, you did get the crux of the message I was trying to communicate. I can count many more elements that are beautiful ideas but not true. All you need to do is to enter the realms of fantasy. That might explain "largely mutually exclusive" better than my previous post.

1. Tendulkar and Lara played in the same team and had a partnership of 800 runs with both scoring 400 each. A beautiful thought but very little chance of being true
2 Federer vs Laver - A mouth-watering concert but can ever become true

Im not concocting these, I have actually spent hours indulgiing in such fantasies and it gave me great pleasure.

The keyboard at the browsing centre I'm now at is true but awful

Why do we need a censor board? - I did see a post on Padams and Javalis and someone said children should not be taught them because of objectionable lyrics.

Bilahari - Yes, I do not trust performing artistes to make the right decisions especially as we are talking about opening up carnatic music to possibly many new themes .I feel they have a lot of things to wory about anyway and many of them can compromise even without being aware that they are doing it.

But, what is wrong in composers/compositions being rated? Anybody who is directly contributing to carnatic music has to be certtified and made to go through a stringent process. I don't know why this is not acceptable.

hsuvarna
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Post by hsuvarna »

coolkarni wrote:hsuvarna
listen here to the greatest ghazal singer of all time-kl saigal
http://rapidshare.com/files/90162676/babul_mora.mp3

and kishori amonkar singing this in a concert
http://rapidshare.com/files/90166391/10 ... Mora-1.mp3
Thanks Cool-ji for the benchmark thumri. After long time I am hearing the
KLS version. Was'nt this the 7.57-8.00 am ceylon morning slot everyday for many years?
How many imitations of this I heard over the years. Countless.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Kji, thanks for those ghazal links. Sounds wonderful..

What is the theme of the song? It sounds a bit sad in the initial portions but later on seems to move on to reflective moods and then possibly some resolutions towards the end. What is it about?

Suji Ram
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

hsuvarna wrote:[
KLS version. Was'nt this the 7.57-8.00 am ceylon morning slot everyday for many years?
.
Absolutely,
I remember my dad straining his ears to listen to Saigal's song every morning. Only years later I bought cassettes and knew why he loved it so much. Every song of his is a gem!

Vk ,
the song is about a bride leaving her parental home-

Found this in a website...

O father, I depart forcibly from my home
Four men gathered to lift my palanquin {see the wedding/funeral analogy here?}
my loved ones will become strangers
the innermost portals of my home will be unreachable
as I leave my father's home and go to my husband's country.



also could mean man's last journey perhaps?
Last edited by Suji Ram on 09 Feb 2008, 12:21, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Meena,
Quite an interesting thought.
In modern times though, such 'chOD bAbul kA ghar mohE pIkE nagar Aj jAnA paDA' angst may not exist! bAbul kA ghar does not become a distant reality anymore!

As sbala says, one can always dream.
By the way sb, I see that you are quite serious about 'certifying' (!) composers. Hope you haven't gone through some of my compositions and have come to this conclusion. Just kidding, and you would know that--coming from a 'certifiable' me :)

coolkarni
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Post by coolkarni »

It sounds a bit sad in the initial portions but later on seems to move on to reflective moods and then possibly some resolutions towards the end.
VK you were spot on there . As you must have seen, through sujirams post.Jagjit singh too sang this beautifully for a commercial album.Bismillah Khan , Naushad , Lata M are on record , declaring that this is one rendering which .they feel cannot be bettered.
A triple cd album of KLS can be seen these days in Music stores-Music world etc.It is a beautifully crafted set , complete with a nice booklet ,too.
Last edited by coolkarni on 09 Feb 2008, 19:25, edited 1 time in total.

hsuvarna
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Post by hsuvarna »

The theme and the story behind it was very well explained in

http://www.musicalnirvana.com/ghazal/wa ... icles.html

Wajid Ali, a great patron, singer of music, dance, art was driven away forcibly (as though a prison term)
from his kingdom in Lucknow in mid 1800s for refusing to acceded to british. He was taken to near calcutta. When he was being taken away in an early morning, thousands gathered and this song first was heard in that morning. It was written by Wajid himself, per lot of articles.

Long baack in rmic, it was posted by the greatest contributor oof Indian Music to Internet by Rajan Parrrikar, the man from Goa. He himself a great harmonium player and very good HM artist.
His posts were widely read. www.sawf.org has all articles on HM ragas, with example clips.

I remember the Internet battle 12 years ago, among music fans in RMIM (rec.music.indian.music )
newsgroup) between Kishore and Rafi fans. This thread is on that heels. Passion emotion flowing.
That battle was won by Rafi group, as I would say, but the opposit camp never agreed. :-).

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

kaapi wrote:VK,
I think in one word it is elegance. But it is not easy to define elegance in any art form. For instance why a film succeeds in box office and another bombs is still a mystery. Similarly why the same composition becomes a hit only with a particular singer is also a mystery.
A CM composition is the blending together of many distinct components like the theme, prosody,raga,tala into an elegant final product.
It will be very difficult to predict which particular blend will become popular.At best we can analyse those that have achieved fame.
kaapi. Thinking about such enigmas is one of my favorite hobbies ;) Explanations ( and not necessarily solutions ) can be found in Complex Systems studies. ( also called non-linear behavior, chaotic behavior etc. ). You can suspect that this beast is in action when there is some kind of 'feedback' of output to input. In other words, whenever people say 'it is a chicken and egg' problem, they are most probably referring to an underlying Complex System. of some vareity. Fashion, Economy, Popularity, culture are all examples of this. The drawings of a snake swallowing its own tail is a symbolic and mythical representation of this phenomenon, if you ask me.

What is interesting is, there are some linear ( predictable ) phases of any complex system and that gives us the illusion that we can somehow predict the outcome and even gives us a false hope that we can effect the future outcome with certainty. But since it is a complex system, when you least expect it, it leaves the linear phase and all of a sudden what used to work does not work anymore.

One fascinating result of thinking about real life things in this manner is, it gives one the humility of our own limitations. But that limitation is not about our capabilities or abilities or skills or motivations but it is about the essential nature of the System we all participate in. So one can have this humility, a balanced perspective on things, without doubting ones own capabilities and skills. Meaning, the outcome does not necessarily reflect on your attitude, skills etc. It is a humility regarding expectations of outcome. "I am proud of my effort vs I am proud I achieved the outcome ". Consequently, this gives one the acceptance when things do not go according to what we planned and predicted. Instead of 'throwing in the towel' ( as someone with a fatalistic mindset may do ), it gives you a scientific and reassuring basis to decide if you did your best or not ( since that is all one can control and not the outcome ). It is a huge burden off one's shoulders. Of course, it is easier said than done.

My own personal philosophy of reconciling and recasting Indian Philosophy to Complex systems is:

Maya : The illusion of Predictability that the underlying complex system gives you.

Bhagavad Gita interpretation: All you can control is your actions and not the outcome since the world out there is non-linear. What is the point in attaching yourself to that outcome, which may or may not happen no matter how hard you try. So let go of that attachment to outcome and focus your energies on what you do, namely the input. Let the system take care of the outcome.

( on a lighter note, next time you pray, ask God to 'let the system exhibit linear behavior for a day' ;) )

Now disciples, you are allowed to ask questions, but if you expect answers, you have already failed the test ;)

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

VK,
I am impressed. Enroll me as your first disciple.
Seriously, what you say is something to mull over. The same wine in the scientist's vial. "'Focus on your energies on what you do, namely the input" is something I need to pay attention to. Rajesh wags his finger at me every chance he gets, and bless him for that!
So, what is the price tag for your seminars, spiritual spring cuckoo? Let me start saving up for that :)

coolkarni
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Post by coolkarni »

http://rapidshare.com/files/90571012/HA ... U.mp3.html

I have have always Wondered why Basaveswar Vachanas never made it to the CM Musician's repertoire.Here is a lovely one in Bhatiyar.A secular theme indeed.A poor man's Cry !!
Last edited by coolkarni on 10 Feb 2008, 11:11, edited 1 time in total.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

I think Vedavalli once sang a Vachana

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK/Uday/Arasi/Kaapi/SR/Vidya...and of course VGV
As you are moving more into the philosophical territory (advaita and its ilk/personal and private philosophy ) shall we move over to a new thread preferably at 'bhakti' and continue that fascinating debate over there. I would love to join the debate to the limited extent my 'computer recovery' permits :) The discussion of secular themes can continue here (minus VGV perhaps) though we are unlikely to find any overreaching changes among the performing public in the near future.

I have always wondered how the scenario of CM would have changed if T had been a devout christian (albeit a 'convert') as he was coeval with vednayagam pillay who was a good musician who also composed a number of songs 'sarva samaya samarasa kIrtanaigaL' which were immensely popular among the rural folks in the 19thcentury and early part of the 20th century (pre independance)! Apart from 'bhakti' it is the patina of Hinduism in CM which is what is holding out other faith groups from adopting it openly though they enjoy CM immensely in private. And it is perhaps the 'weakness' of that patina that has made HM more universal. I would appreciate Coolkarni's comments in this regard since he has a more 'catholic' experience of both CM and HM!

arasi
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Post by arasi »

CML,
Good to know your computer 'aint misbehaving' all the time. Still, it needs chastening so that you can be with us more...

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Arasi. We can discuss a lot about such things ( where do motivations to do stuff come from if it is not to be based on results, in practical terms). As CML suggested, may be in a separate thread under Bhakthi section, though this may not strictly come under bhakthi.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Sangeet Rasik wrote:

Sharangadeva, in the third chapter of his "Sangita Ratnakara" has enumerated the characteristics of an ideal vaggeyakara. Rajan Parrikar has paraphrased these from Shringy and Sharma (vol 2, chapter 3). I am cutting and pasting directly from the following link:

http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit05012000/musicarts.asp
This list is quite interesting to reflect on. Individually each one seems like an obvious requirement but bringing them together in one list is a good contribution. I guess most of them are relatable to the current times. If I understand the overall thoughts of Sarangadeva right, a vaggeyakara should be knowledgeable in literature, music ( both ragas and thalas ), local customs and a highly developed sense of aesthetics in combining prose, melody and rhythm.

I wonder why 'Maturity in the understanding of different prabandhas' is listed as a basic requirement for the 'best category' vaggeyakara. Was Bakthi/religious themed compositions were the norm during Sarangadeva's times? ( I am assuming here that Prabandas are religious themed compositions )

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Thanks all for continuing the discussion, will be back soon with more detailed posts. CML, look forward to seeing you back in the fray after overcoming the computer issues. VGV seems to be out of the forum, maybe he will relent and return if I sing "bhaja govindam" ! :-)

SR

arasi
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Post by arasi »

AND, tyAgarAjam bhajarE.
VGV,
The forum awaits...

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

arasi wrote:AND, tyAgarAjam bhajarE.
VGV,
The forum awaits...
I have been thinking the same. A composition reflecting the life of Saint TyagarAja by SR will surely bring VGV back..

hsuvarna
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Joined: 27 Aug 2006, 06:47

Post by hsuvarna »

cmlover wrote:VK/Uday/Arasi/Kaapi/SR/Vidya...and of course VGV

I have always wondered how the scenario of CM would have changed if T had been a devout christian (albeit a 'convert') as he was coeval with vednayagam pillay who was a good musician who also composed a number of songs 'sarva samaya samarasa kIrtanaigaL' which were immensely popular among the rural folks in the 19thcentury and early part of the 20th century (pre independance)! Apart from 'bhakti' it is the patina of Hinduism in CM which is what is holding out other faith groups from adopting it openly though they enjoy CM immensely in private. And it is perhaps the 'weakness' of that patina that has made HM more universal. I would appreciate Coolkarni's comments in this regard since he has a more 'catholic' experience of both CM and HM!
cmlover, which or what CM they enjoy immensely in private?
The biggest difference between HM and CM is that CM started as bhakti sangeet and remained that way. Addions of same kind were done on the base. Just like vedas or upanishads are patina of this faith, CM also is like that. First of all they invented something and they sang for themselves. How can it be patina or control or hold? However the CM takeaways talas, ragas can be used by anyone. What is the reason that none of these other faith groups used the theory and created a cm stream for them? There is no known obstruction by any one. isn't it? The other faith groups cannot enjoy the existing CM. But is'nt that the same way as this faith group sings highlighting their belief?

knandago2001
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 10:09

Post by knandago2001 »

I’m trying to figure out how yakshas, kinnaras (half-man-half-horse) and gandharvas (half-man-half-bird) functioned in the context of musical tradition(s). There seems to have been close interactions between the yakshas and the kinnaras who entertained in the court of King Kubera. In the case of the gandharvas, it remains controversial whether they descended from Brahma or Sage Kasyapa. Be that as it may, there are definite pointers to the fact that the gandharvas were the guardians of “soma,â€

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

bacchanals and serenades??
JUST KIDDING...
knandago,
What you say (ask) is interesting.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

I have had contacts with Srilankan Tamil communities and have attended their church functions. Occasionally I have heard remarkable CM songs on christ (well sung but with different intonations!) with lovely aalaapana and nerevals etc. I was told that they never sing them in public concerts out of reverance to God! CM did penetrate Srilanka even olden times and enjoyed immense popularity among the Hindu community. The other religious groups did enjoy CM immensely but resented the emphasis on Hindu Gods. Vedanayagam pillai's songs were quite popular in this context. See
http://www.geocities.com/promiserani2/co1078.html
Lakshman may have his CM compositions with Notations. His 'karuNaalaya nidhiyE' is still being sung at concerts (unnikrishnan does!) but for whatever reason others are ignored. I have been told that he did compose several kIrtanas on christ which were listened to by the rural folks in those days. Due to lack of encouragement or of shishya parampara they were lost !

CM intrinsically is a scientific system of music. It used to be in the exclusive domain of Brahmins and devadasis of yore. Times have changed and a number of non-brahmin hindus (even westerners) are now taking to it. It is time to widen the horizons that CM appreciation becomes Universal.

By the by can anybody enlighten whether there are kritis on christ or Islam in Kannada or Telugu? (I know there are a few in Malayalam which again is not a popular CM language barring selected kritis of Svati (and Tulasivanam of late)!

cienu
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 11:40

Post by cienu »

cmlover wrote:By the by can anybody enlighten whether there are kritis on christ or Islam in Kannada or Telugu? (I know there are a few in Malayalam which again is not a popular CM language barring selected kritis of Svati (and Tulasivanam of late)!
I do remember that Vijay Siva sang a song on Allah around 8 years back at Kalakshetra. Dont remember the name of the composer or the language though.
Last edited by cienu on 12 Feb 2008, 21:52, edited 1 time in total.

vijay
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06

Post by vijay »

Way to go Vijay (the singer I mean)! A great example of how you can be catholic and traditional at the same time...

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Yes indeed Vijay (Siva).
Cienu,
Was it by any chance allA, allA, allA by Subramanya Bharati??

cienu
Posts: 2387
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 11:40

Post by cienu »

Arasi,

I think you are right. This function was organised in connection with Kalki Sadasivam's centenary year celebrations. And Vijay sang this so beautifully !

nathikan
Posts: 27
Joined: 08 Oct 2007, 01:40

Post by nathikan »

cmlover wrote:It used to be in the exclusive domain of Brahmins and devadasis of yore. Times have changed and a number of non-brahmin hindus (even westerners) are now taking to it. It is time to widen the horizons that CM appreciation becomes Universal.
Why do you say devadasis rather than Isai Vellalar, which would include nattuvanars, nadaswaram players etc. Weren't othuvars from different castes?

Yesudas has also sung Christian and Muslim items, I can't remember the name of the Muslim item I heard but it was not by Parati. It is both funny and sad that people can be aware that music is taught through a gurukulam system and also posit that there is no obstruction to students outside the fold.
Last edited by nathikan on 13 Feb 2008, 05:11, edited 1 time in total.

Sangeet Rasik
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Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Please continue discussion on related topics. I will be back on this thread soon. Just wanted to mention that my definition of "secular themes" was related to topics which have no prominent "religious/faith-based" orientation, and not in the sense of representing multiple religions. Of course, the role of CM in the latter sense is also a topic that fits OK in this thread.

SR

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Why do you say devadasis rather than Isai Vellalar, which would include nattuvanars, nadaswaram players etc. Weren't othuvars from different castes?
Nathikan: I have heard of the Isai Vellalar. Is that an inclusive name to cover the devadasi community, nattuvanar as well as the nadaswaram and thavil artists? Also, how about Mridangam players? Just for my info.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Why do you say devadasis rather than Isai Vellalar, which would include nattuvanars, nadaswaram players etc. Weren't othuvars from different castes?
Let us call a spade a spade. No euphemisms :)
It was no shame in those days to have a devadasi concubine. In fact many musicians did have close asociations with devadasis and were it not for them some of our precious CM would have gotten lost! There was indeed a stigma attached to high-class women performing CM in public. But many were versatile in devotional songs which they would sing inside their family circles and would also teach to their near relatives. But I am quite surprised why men (non-brahmins) would not freely perform publicly though they had the knowledge and ability. The Tanjore Quartets were not brahmins but never had a sishya parampara. However nadasvaram and nattuvaangam were in the exclusive domain of the non-brahmins!

I am aware that KJY did try to sing christian CM songs but the 'quality' was poor indeed. Or was it the prejudice that prevented those songs becoming popular. There were also excellent compositions of erotic nature in Tamil (similar to kshEtravya in Telugu) which were freely sung during wedding concerts but never in public concerts (most of which were in Temple surroundings). Those CM songs are now lost for ever except in some stray vinyls ! Let us admit it,; our forefathers were 'prudes' in conformity with the Victorian style :) As much as there is a 'revolution' in bharatanATyam there is a need for an enlightened revolution in CM where 'erotic songs' are no longer taboo! Are you ready ? Especially the anti-bhakti-brigade :)

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, I think nathikan's point is that you have left out a lot of people and if you use the generic term Isai Vellalar, that will include a lot more people in that musical community that you speak of.
But I am quite surprised why men (non-brahmins) would not freely perform publicly though they had the knowledge and ability
Interesting observation about the non-brahmin Men. We have got a lot of past baggage to explain and understand about our (recent) history. Court musicians were probably from all castes but the various public singers of fame from yore all seem to be brahmin.

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