Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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arasi
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Post by arasi »

Vidya,
As a woman, I am with you when it comes to our being treated as inferiors by some. However, I would rather think of men and women as humans and hope for equality and dignity among us--not particularly on the basis of gender. Just as it is among the gods, we men and women have our own powers (capabilities?) and responsibilities. We do know that. It is not recognizing and acknowledging these assets that create problems.
There is no issue here about music born out of bhakti. I think it is about secular compositions which would add to the glory of CM. Yes, and we are looking for quality...
Last edited by arasi on 04 Feb 2008, 15:09, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

cienu,
Well said. There are shades and chasms of differences among bhaktAs!
As for SR, he can be a bit 'industrial stength' when it comes to his convictions!
SR, hope I didn't ruffle your feathers :)

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

..the substratum on which this whole affair of prEma bhakti rests That the Lord is supreme male and limitless and the devotees are limited and female.This seems unacceptable and unrelateable to a lot of us.
Vidya,
I understand your viewpoint. This topic had earlier come up. I took the example of Meera. Like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa who advised his disciples to desist from -kAmini - kAncan, assume that Meera had disciples - female; what would she have advised her female disciples - something like this - desist from kAma - kAncan.

The concept of male and female is not to be too strictly interpreted when it comes to Supreme Lord. Ramakrishna Pramahamsa was worshipper of Mother Kali. When he said his disciples to desist from kAmini, does he not know that every woman is the form of Mother Kali? The reference is more to the attraction inherent in both genders. I would request you to read what Mother Sarada Devi - wife of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa advised her female disciples.

The concept of inseparability of Siva and Sakti - or whatever name you may call it - should not be thought of strictly in terms of Siva as 'male' and Sakti as 'female'.

When Krishna tells in Gita that 'aham bIjaH pradaH pita', it refers not to the act of impregnation per se, but refers to a condition where this egg-chicken controversy should stop. We should not lose the sight of the fact that every new born baby - male and female - have the complete set of sperms and eggs and only maturation and facilitation are the two jobs which we can boast of as parents - these two are not really conscious acts - more by nature and instinct.

In Tamil - the bliss of sexual union is called siRRinbam and the bliss of union with Paramatma is termed as pErinbam. 'inbam' is the common denominator in both. In one case it is egocentric and in the other egomerging - here there is no concept of male or female. We - both males and females - should get over the ghost of gender identity haunting us.

Therefore, male-female angle to supreme bhakti - anurAga bhakti - is - IMHO - serves more of a simile. This is more due to historic and societal nature where man played an active role and woman a more passive role as 'saha dharmiNi'. Therefore, there is more literature catering to needs of men.

In bRhadAraNyaka upanishad, (III.vi), it is a woman by name gargi - daughter of vacakanu - who asks final question to yAjnavalkya before the matter is settled that yAjnavalkya is the true knower of brahman.

After that period of upanishads, where women also knew and interpreted Vedas and upanishads, things seems to have changed dramatically diluting the role of women. What happened, who knows?
Last edited by vgvindan on 04 Feb 2008, 15:40, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

At a higher level, one cannot rule out the possibility that he had that as one of his goals, if not his main objective. Whatever arguments you put forth, it just cannot be proven. It is something you have to accept on faith.
bala,
Thyagaraja has led a life of privation, the severity of which we cannot imagine. A person with a family to look after, simply refusing to earn a living - even when the invitation comes at his door step - and being always immersed in bhakti, would, in today's parlance, be termed as a mad act and he would be hounded out by the society. These, I have not taken from any biography of Thyagaraja. Thyagaraja Kritis are all auto-biographical in nature. You can glean all the facts from his Kritis - you do not need any biographer.

There is an episode in the life of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa; one night he was writhing in pain. People did not know what the problem was. Then when people searched his bed, they found a coin; once that was removed, he could sleep well. He was such allergic to money. Can you and I imagine such a situation?

I am not speaking with any authority in regard to Thyagaraja; kindly go over all his kritis - don't go by the stories of miracles of 'opening of curtain at Tirupathi' and 'stopping of Lord Ranganatha's procession at Sri Rangam'. Take a totally rational look at his kritis. Then you will realise whether he had played any social role - even for spreading bhakti. There seems to be no conscious effort on his part for such an endeavour. He surely mentions of bhagavatas singing his keerthanas - but that is more of a statement of fact, rather than deliberate attempt to coax people into bhakti.

Yesterday I posted a quote of Vivekananda of mad love - if we need examples - one is Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and other other is Thyagaraja. I would not include Dikshitar in that category because he led more or less a normal life - his bhakti is more internalised; he seemed to have followed the concept of 'yadRcchA lAbha santushTO' - being 'content with what comes without effort' - because sannyAsa is more mental than physical appearance etc.

Endowed with bundle of prides and prejudices as we are, it is very difficult for us to evaluate Thyagaraja. I do not want you to go by what I say. Go over all by yourself and find out the truth.

If only we could sort Thyagaraja's kritis chronologically, we can write his biography and know how he actually evolved.
Last edited by vgvindan on 04 Feb 2008, 15:36, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
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Post by sbala »

Vgv Sir,
Thank you for the excellent inputs.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

Herewith a Thyagaraja Kriti in Malavasri Raga. I do not think I have ever heard this kriti.

ennALLu tirigEdi ennALLu

enna rAni dEhamuletti I saMsAra gahanamandu
pannuga cOrula rIti parulanu vEgincucunu (ennALLu)

1. rEpaTi kUTiki lEdani rEyi pagalu vesanamondi
SrI pati pUjalu maraci cEsinaTTi vArivale nEn(ennALLu)

2. uppu karpUra varakunu unchavRtticE Arjinci
meppulaku poTTa nimpi mEmE peddalamanucu (ennALLu)

3. bhramanukoni irugu porugu bhakSimpa rammani pilva
amarucukO pUja japamunu AsAyamu cEtunanucu (ennALLu)

4. nAyanduNDE tappulu nADE telusukoNTi kAni
bAya viDuvaka
mahAnubhAva tyAgarAja vinuta (ennALLu)

O The Great One! O Lord praised by this tyAgarAja!

How long shall I wander? How long?

Having taken countless bodies, in this forest of Worldly Existence, how long shall I wander nicely by harassing others like thieves?

Becoming worried day and night that there is nothing for tomorrow’s food, having forgotten the worship of the Lord vishNu, how long shall I wander like those who perform (worship daily)?

Having earned through uncavRtti even salt and camphor, and filling the stomach, how long shall I wander seeking fame telling that I am alone a great person?

In order to make the neighbours stunned and invite me to come for partaking food, how long shall I wander telling them that I properly (or patiently) perform worship and chanting till evening?

Though I have understood faults existing in me long back, how long shall I wander without abandoning them?

How much more can a mean demean himself? Is this a kriti which one would compose as 'composer' in the sense we understand today?

I understand there are parallels where other devotees used such a bhAva - Atma garhaNa. But since we are discussing music, I thought it worthwhile that we realise fully what we are talking about.

knandago2001
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Post by knandago2001 »

An atheist / materialist states that “Religious art offers something hard to find in secular art: a fragile but somehow limitless hope, poised against all evidence to the contrary, a consoling promise, a reaching towards an ultimate peaceâ€

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

VGV,

I am replying to your points in a separate post since I think they are somewhat different from the main thread topic - please don't take offense, your viewpoint is important.

Dear All,

Here is my summary reply to all your well-considered comments.

1. Arasi, thanks for the comments. I am not sure I am deserving of such praise. But I am certainly a believer in expanding the scope of CM. This is not an exclusivst or revisionist viewpoint, it is an expansionist one. No, my feathers are not at all ruffled :-)

2. Coolkarni, your point is very well taken. "Bhakti" is a very personal thing at its root. Secular contributions can be claimed to be as "divinely inspired" as religious ones. In Indian history, even persons making secular contributions almost always pay obeisance to "divine inspiration". As I will discuss with VGV, divine inspiration need not only lead to religious expression. Thus, there is a logical flaw in the reasoning of those who believe that secular themes are less worthy than religious ones. What if the same Rama is inspiring secular themes today ? Should every composer wear "bhakti" on his/her sleeve to gain respectability ? Should we presume to judge divine inspiration ? Therefore, the main measure is quality as measured by the standards laid down through the ages by musicologists. Religious compositions are not stipulated, nor even specially encouraged over secular themes, by any well-regarded Indian musicologist through the ages. Of course, correcting perceived imbalance at different times in history is a different thing, as both Tyagaraja and VD Paluskar did.

3. I agree that I may have been presenting secular themes as "a bitter pill" to be swallowed in order to prevent CM from withering and dying. This can be argued, but from a practical point of view I agree with VK, the "sweet pill" approach may be better, i.e. the opportunity to expand the scope of the art form is a pretty strong argument on its own. One can't resist throwing in the occasional "bogeyman", though. :P

4. Let me clarify that I am not suggesting we "displace" religious themes. When I said that the younger generation is "growing restless", I did not mean that there is no patience with religious themes. It is when (in a concert) item #1 is praising Rama, item #2 is praising Krishna, item #3 and #4 is again praising Rama, item #5 is praising Padmanabha (godhead of Rama and Krishna)....and so on, and repeated in each and every concert in the music season, that things start becoming pretty monotonous to an increasingly large section of the listeners. This is just for illustration. As I said, there is so much more in Indian civilization that can be easily merged with CM and will lead to much more rounded and satisfying experience to the rasik.

SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 04 Feb 2008, 21:42, edited 1 time in total.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

VGV,

Firstly, I realize that (except for point #1 below) this post is a deviation from the main topic of the thread, i.e. the role of secular themes in future CM.

Regarding the Tyagaraja-specific discussion, there should be no impression that I am "debunking" him in any way. There are four main points I am making:

1)That secular themes can coexist peacefully in CM with Tyagaraja's compositions (and those of any other known bhakta-vaggeyakara of any shade). If you have disagreement on that, then please feel free to discuss further in the thread.

2) Wiithin the "bhakta-vaggeyakara" fold, your thesis is that Tyagaraja is a different breed from others. While there is no doubt that the bhakti of Tyagaraja was different from Dikshitar or Swati or Shastri, each having their own unique characteristics, it is not up to us to judge the "quality" of bhakti of composers as it pertains to their contribution towards a publicly performed art form. Bhakti is a deeply personal thing. One cannot argue that God blessed one more than he did the other vaggeyakara, or for that matter anyone.

3) Using one's religious devotion and artistic talent to intentionally promote both religion and art, is by no means an ulterior motive, nor does it lower one's spiritual quality in any way. In Advaita Vedanta philosophy, Sankaracharya is upheld as a philosopher who (no doubt by divine force) made a conscious decision to make an all-India tour to debunk and defeat the Vedic ritualists as well as the heretics. He is rarely made out to be a person who did these things "automatically" propelled by constant "divine remote control". What is important is the unselfish motive - "nishkAma karma". Let us remember that if God "automatically" propels chosen ones to act through "remote control" then the value of the Vedas and the Bhagavad Gita become irrelevant. Both are exhortations to act righteously - the Vedas exhort us to perform yajna, the Bhagavd Gita exhorts us to perform "nishkAma karma". This discussion could take us deep into Indian philosophical darshanas, but suffice it to say that for e.g. in Advaita Vedanta the "individual" Atman is conscious and carries the responsibility of merging with the Brahman.

Neither Tyagaraja nor Sankara had any personal fame or fortune in mind, but to say that they had no conscious motivation to reform the system and were just behaving "automatically" through divine control, becomes the realm of speculation and non-verifiability. What can be appreciated however, is the effect of their actions on the upliftment of society through art, science, public service, philosophy, religion, or whatever other area.

4) You mentioned a study of Tyagaraja's kritis will reveal that he had no musicological motivations. I will suggest we do a little analysis of the kriti "sogasuga mrdangatalamu". Please start a separate thread on this if you like, or if you think this is suitable for the present thread, please continue here. I will post my comments on this later. Got to run now !

SR

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Very interesting discussion - and all viewpoints have been presented quite cogently!

Although counterpoints for many of the points put here arise in my mind, I find them too jumbled up in my mind to put them forth in any cogent way - too much cross-currents within me :). So at this point, I will just be a spectator

Arun

hsuvarna
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Post by hsuvarna »

Sangit Rasik,
I have not read all the posts but looked into a few. I am trying to understand what exactly is "secular CM". One point you said, item#1 is rama, item#2 is devi, item#3 is murugan etc. So it is boring god after god.... So what are the alternatives? item#1 is one god, item#2 is patriotic, item#3 is other religion (secular), item#4 ??? etc? Is this an example of secular CM?

Any serious music, is very much tied with bhava and feelings inside. You don't care whether it is SSI, MSS or Voleti or Mali. It must come out of the inner side. Now, can a singer rather human being be tied with multiple subjects so much inside that he can deliver the best music using the multiple facets of world? It is the inside which gives best music, how can you turn to outside world (secular areas) to give best music.

The Rama, Krishna, Guru, Devi are so much part of inside that, a real good singer, is presenting quality music. If you don't have that inner side, it becomes like movie music. The other aspects (action by hero/heroine, emotions surrounding the film song etc) act, mix and deliver the effect. How can the CM singer sitting alone can give you that?

The CM songs like Javalis, Padams are kind of different songs in CM compared to T/MD/SS kritis. But these types of songs never picked up. Why?

As per the commercialization of CM, secularity of CM. The huge number of south indian film songs, do use CM as a base. KV Mahadevan, Illayaraja, S Rajeshwar Rao, Pendyala, all of them had sound CM background. They used it in thousands of songs. Why CM is a failure? It had to operate only in 4 states, hence you don't see the popularity of HM. Unlike HM, CM evolved from kaveri banks, where in the secular guys did not interfere to corrupt it.
It stayed that way. You cannot make kids or new generation sit in a CM concert or film songs concert or ghazal consert, unless they have some exposure to them.

Yes, some change is required by CM singers. They must be interfering with people, rasikas more. In the concert they must talk a little bit. They can praise a film music director for using raga ahir bahirav, explain that, and connect with listeners. Once a listener knows that it is ahir bhairav, he would delve more into the raga, more interest and more time spent. The CM singer must present an item mixing swars into a ragam and explain how he beautified for ex, add ma into mohanam and show it how it sounds.

More later..

hsuvarna
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Post by hsuvarna »

Also sangit Rasik, you said you practice what yoiu preach and you have some sanskrit compositions. Is there a way for us to hear/read the composition? This way I can understand more of your points....

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »


arasi
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Post by arasi »

hsuvarna,
You raise some interesting points.
Music is music and it is heard in the outpourings of great composers, in chantings, a mother's lullaby, in the voices of folks working in the fields, in instruments of all kinds--and the list is endless.
Then there is music which is performed--in concerts, movies and so on. We discuss both the creation and the performance of it on the forum. Our concern here is the wellbeing and growth of CM. The preserving of old treasures and observing the way music expresses itself as an art form on the stage.
Secular music is part of it all. You can either sing a lullaby with the name of a god woven into it or just of a human child. You can sing in the fields giving thanks to a god for a good harvest or just about your work or the people working in it. Nature comes into it too.
So, to view it as if it can be a drag to hear song after song about one god or other is not the point. It is the inclusion of songs philosophical, nature oriented and those which are worthy of being included.
We already have Santi nilava vENDum taking the place of a mangaLam in some concerts. vAzhia Sentamizh in others. It wouds be nice if someone takes up bhUlOka kumAri as a finale (singing the four lines of a mangaLam too, if they wish). Bharati is a treasure house of both kinds of songs. I wonder why kaNNan (kaNNammA) songs alone need to be fodder for singers. Sowmya, Sanjay and few others seem to sing his other songs as well. Even those who do not understand tamizh, by the very bhAvA packed in them would enjoy hearing them. If they like to hear kuRai onRum illai, surely, bhArati's songs would be appreciated
too. ..

sbala
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Post by sbala »

If we are talking about such secular songs for tukkada items, I don't really see a point. Yes, it might attract more people. But, attracting more people is not the only sign of growth. That is happening already in our concerts to a certain extent. What I was under the impression was we are looking at grand compositions that can be taken up for main and submain. That to me constitutes real acceptance of secular themes. Overall, I'm not a big fan of the current concert format itself that tries to satisfy everyone. The process of unfolding an alaap in Hindustani slowly and steadily is a thing of beauty. At times, it all seems rushed in CM. I would much rather have 2-3 songs explored in lot of detail than 10 songs covering 4 gods, 2 secular themes, 5 thalas and 15 ragas. But that is a subject of another discussion. A great professor was said to have introduced the student to one deep idea in every lecture and there was palpable excitement to hear the next beautiful idea before every lecture. I wish we get that sometimes in CM. The DKP tribute by Vijay Siva had that kind of aura to it.

rajumds
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Post by rajumds »

A fascinating discussion

I have a few points.

1. It is true that predominance of bhakthi / religion puts a mental barrier on the uninitiated from listening to CM but the irony is many of the rasikas listen to CM for the musical part rather than for the religious part.

2. Many rasikas ( & musicians :| ) don’t understand the meaning of the krirtis and hence the lyrical content is lost. And most of the performers don’t bring out the bhavam of the song and all you are left with is music .

3. Till about 100 years back CM concerts were mainly RTP based which would not have had bakthi or bhavam.(to the extend of Trinity's kritis)

4. CM and bhakthi are two different entities. It so happened that CM was used by Trinity as medium. What would have happened if they had chosen to be poets rather than vaggeyakaras.

5. The musical value of the Trinity is so great and the fact that we have not had any non religious vagggeyakars of merit has resulted in CM and bhakthi becoming synonymous (if I can use the word)

6. While CM is not the only way to express bhakthi , why should bhakthi be the only path for CM

nathikan
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Post by nathikan »

Sangeet Rasik wrote:[
I do wonder about Sanskrit's supposed appeal to the intelligensia -- the same people who would be attracted by secular compositions to Carnatic music would be dissuaded by Sanskrit, I think.)
Yes, Sanskrit compositions will always be more palatable to a smaller niche, than say, compositions in Hindi. But there is a balance. The Sanskrit-lovers may also tend to be the more "intellectual" or "influential" folks who may have a role to play in influencing tastes of others. Also, others will be more likely to listen to Sanskrit kritis if it is decoupled from the "bhakti" aspect - one "turn-off" has always been the association of Sanskrit solely with liturgy and devotion
i find it hard to imagine someone who is a) a sanskrit-lover and b) has no particular previous interest in carnatic music but is attracted to it by secular themes. (and i should add that i know many people who are turned off by carnatic music because of the religiosity.)

on the other hand, i can imagine someone who is a thamizh lover whose interest is carnatic music is piqued by secular themes... i have noticed a few settings of sangam poetry in concerts, primarily in bn. a carnatic vocalist was telling me that research into pann has recovered non-religious songs which her guru is trying to add to the repertoire.

vidya
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Post by vidya »

Sangeet Rasik wrote:In the sense that:

1) the majority of the subcontinent subscribes to Hindustani music, which has a strong secular base.
2) there is nothing in any foundational texts of Indian music (whether dating from the pre-bifurcation period of CM/HM or after) SR
1.Post Natya shastra I have not seen a reference to secular music per se. Even in the nAtyashastra there is a strong devotional base.
2.There was only a distinction between mArga and dEsi music and even that mArga serves to distinguish vEdic,repetetive ritual music from
other kinds of music which was mostly devotional. As far as I have understood Indian musical texts never contained
any references to non-secularity of music per se.
3.Whatever secular music that existed were provincial - The Tamils probably had a lot of secular music and dance as evidenced
by the Sangam literature and CilappatikAram.By the time of CilappatikAram religious themes were always there.
4.By 1-8th centuries there was a change and devotional music took over the South, North and elsewhere. This was also a time when the so-called larger
traditions took over the smaller regional traditions.
5.A few centuries later the influence of Islamic music happened in the North and the dhruvapada music (largely devotional)
co-existed with the other romantic lyrics (again a narrow theme but the only difference was this was not 'devotional')
Only in the works of Amir Khusro do I find the so-called secular themes. All the rest of the BrajbhAsha and other
lyrics largely deal with pining nAyika/nAyakas, the kRishna lore and a lot of bhakti literature.
6.The reason was not because of a need for secularity but for the sake of two religions to co-exist in their artforms.
7.However the stress on improvisation and rise in popularity of khyAl and the confluence of cultures meant that lyrics took a backseat
to music and today's hindustani music largely consists of garbled lyrics, some meaningful lyrics dealing with more or less
the same themes it inherited. Would I call it secular? I am not so sure atleast in the HM I have heard.
8.Carnatic lyrics have I think covered a larger base say some the jAvalis or Balamurali's composition on Russia or Bharathiyar's composition ViDuthalai viDuthalai or oLipaDaitha kaNNinAy.
But as pointed out by someone all other lyrics got relegated to the tukkaDa level because a lot of the composers were not gEyakArAs per se or faced resistance.
9.Finally in today's context secular lyrics do not mean a broadened outlook or even creativity. Most of the lyrics I saw posted on this
forum substituted Abdul Kalam for a deity. It is no way different from say Subbarama Dikshitar's gAravamu on the rAmnAd sethupati etc.
ie a modernised Narastuti in lieu of a king or God.
10.I am not saying this as a criticism but now and then when I attempt to write poetry I find Tamil even in the metered variety offers me a lot more scope (again it is largely in my mind)
I do find it challenging to write thematic lyric in Sanskrt. ie I can easily write a few lines praising say someone like Mahashweta DEvi but to write something descriptive, thematic
seems challenging difficult. May be you can give us a few examples of your compositions that deal with ideas and those that are not about people or Gods?

vidya
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Post by vidya »

vgvindan wrote:Vidya,

The concept of inseparability of Siva and Sakti - or whatever name you may call it - should not be thought of strictly in terms of Siva as 'male' and Sakti as 'female'.

Therefore, male-female angle to supreme bhakti - anurAga bhakti - is - IMHO - serves more of a simile. This is more due to historic and societal nature where man played an active role and woman a more passive role as 'saha dharmiNi'. Therefore, there is more literature catering to needs of men.

In bRhadAraNyaka upanishad, (III.vi), it is a woman by name gargi - daughter of vacakanu - who asks final question to yAjnavalkya before the matter is settled that yAjnavalkya is the true knower of brahman.

After that period of upanishads, where women also knew and interpreted Vedas and upanishads, things seems to have changed dramatically diluting the role of women. What happened, who knows?
Take for instance the same BrhadAraNyaka upanishad. It says in the original text
'A father aspires for a daughter who is a paNDita'. Given the gArgi vAcaknavi episode and her debate with Yagnavalkya one would think it makes a lot of sense.But then take Sankara's
commentary of those lines. He spefically interprets these lines as follows 'In this case it actually means someone who is adept in the duties of the household'.
So my take is that the bhakti movement had high ideals in philosophy but shied away from sociological issues and resistant to change.

Again the problem with prEma bhakti also is not just the philosophical explanation that male actually is just a mere symbolic word. The associated sociological issue that arises here is this. A goddess is a pati vrta and hence a male devotee is not allowed to show this prEma bhakti whereas Gods are free to move around.It is this pretext and subtext that
many of us cannot agree. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa seems to have been an exception to this.

So I am not seeing a non-existent problem when I made reference to the gender-specific lyrics in the nAyaka-nAyaki bhAva. Of course it is even worse in classical dance where they struggle with relating to the classical idiom. About 30% of the Carnatic lyrics I do not relate and I switch my mind off and listen for the music , yes even in some compositions of Tyagaraja,Annamayya,Kshetrayya etc.Someone who listens for the first time to such lyrics might move away from the art form itself.So I said irrespective of the kind of music
a broadened outlook would be a better approach.
Last edited by vidya on 05 Feb 2008, 19:10, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

sbala,
My examples happened to fall in the tukkaDA category! Yes, take for instance bhArati's ettanai kODi inbam vaittAi nI!--It does not mention a god from the hindu pantheon but addresses iRAivan (God), goes on to marvel at Nature. Here, there is no kOdanDam carrying RAmA or spear carrying murugan.
It is a song of such quality, written by a great poet. We sang it in dhanyAsi as children and how it would make a perfect main or sub-main in a concert!
You don't have to look elsewhere for a mix of religious and non-religious content for a concert. Bharati provides them all. From kritis to viruttams, he has got it. In the same way, telugu, kannaDA and malayALam kavis would be great sources. Keep the trinity very much in a concert, but include those untapped verses and songs, I would say.
When we started every day with a prayer in Lady Wellington School, we sang Vedanayakam Pillai 's krutis which addressed God (of no particular denomination). Suddhananda Bharati's songs are not heard that much these days. MSS popularized his aruL purivAi karuNAik kaDalE!, again a non-denominational hymn. Such a suitable song for invocation and you heard it everywhere then!

Vidya,
All songs about heroic persons are not nara stutis to me. A vAzhga nI emmAn vaiytattu nATTilellAm or the numerous odes that bharati penned about heroes of India and elsewhere are not nara stutis.Tagore's poetry will make good songs too.
As for me, my engu pArttAlum un innuruvE kANum inbam enakkaruLvAyO? is a non-denominational song which you can find in the vaggeyakara's section. I remember krishnaa seeing krishnA's qualities in it though it wasn't intended that way. I think that any song which allows a rasikA to see God in his own image is fine by me.Such a song would bring to the CM fold those who like CM but are hesitant to come to it because of their idea that it deals with hindu gods or that it is more brahmin oriented...
Last edited by arasi on 05 Feb 2008, 19:58, edited 1 time in total.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Vidya,

Thanks for splitting your response point-wise. Makes it easier to discuss. My response:
vidya wrote:1.Post Natya shastra I have not seen a reference to secular music per se. Even in the nAtyashastra there is a strong devotional base.
2.There was only a distinction between mArga and dEsi music and even that mArga serves to distinguish vEdic,repetetive ritual music from
other kinds of music which was mostly devotional. As far as I have understood Indian musical texts never contained
any references to non-secularity of music per se.
No, I don't believe this is the case. While clearly no ancient musicologist (that we know of) said that music must be secular in theme (note the disctinction between "theme" and "subject" - I will discuss this below), nobody said that Indian classical music is suited only to religious themes. That was the point. Regarding our secularity, I was speaking of the current situation in Hindustani music.

Desi music has been defined by Matanga (in Brhaddesi) as arising from regions/provinces. What is significant about the brhaddesi is that it treats this "Desi music" as the source of what we now call "classical music". It is a common misconception that "marga" music is fundamentally distinguished from "desi" music by Matanga. He only discusses one (not two) kinds of music, i.e. "Desi music" which he splits into two "margas" (paths) - the "nibaddha" (highly structured) and "anibaddha" (loosely structured). The "nibaddha" form, which is defined as containing "alapa" is again dubbed as "marga sangita" , whereas the "anibaddha' form (defined as devoid of "alapa") is dubbed as "desi". This odd nomenclature is probably the origin of the popular misconception - what is significant is its treatment.
7.However the stress on improvisation and rise in popularity of khyAl and the confluence of cultures meant that lyrics took a backseat to music and today's hindustani music largely consists of garbled lyrics, some meaningful lyrics dealing with more or less the same themes it inherited. Would I call it secular? I am not so sure atleast in the HM I have heard.
I guess it is a question of definition. I agree HM content is essentially what it has inherited. As such, it is about as secular as it can be considering its past. What I am saying is: the present and future are very different from the past, thus we have no obligation nor restriction to stick to the same themes. Furthermore, a lot of the "resistance" to new themes comes from the impression/mental block that somehow our classical music was defined in religious terms and thus cannot be enjoyed fully with secular themes. There is nothing in Indian musicology that supports this view.
9.Finally in today's context secular lyrics do not mean a broadened outlook or even creativity. Most of the lyrics I saw posted on this forum substituted Abdul Kalam for a deity. It is no way different from say Subbarama Dikshitar's gAravamu on the rAmnAd sethupati etc.
ie a modernised Narastuti in lieu of a king or God. May be you can give us a few examples of your compositions that deal with ideas and those that are not about people or Gods?
In my opinion this is most important part of your post, and worthy of a separate reply (please see below).

Best Wishes,
SR

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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Vidya (and other rasiks reading this),
9.Finally in today's context secular lyrics do not mean a broadened outlook or even creativity. Most of the lyrics I saw posted on this forum substituted Abdul Kalam for a deity. It is no way different from say Subbarama Dikshitar's gAravamu on the rAmnAd sethupati etc.
ie a modernised Narastuti in lieu of a king or God. May be you can give us a few examples of your compositions that deal with ideas and those that are not about people or Gods?
My belief is that by using "secular lyrics" one can express profoundly broadened outlook and creativity that is "in sync" with what is around us today rather than only what was around us in the 18th century.

I must immediately debunk the idea that my compositions are narastutis substituting men for Gods. Almost all the compositions posted are about ideas, the people/personalities are merely the carriers. This is exactly the same approach as taken in the "bhakti-oriented" compositions. This is part and parcel of the Indian tradition, which I would like to preserve in many ways. We care about Rama and Krishna not as idols (as some Westerners believe) but as carriers of spiritual ideas. It is their stories and the spiritual underpinning of those stories that kindles bhakti. All the other decorations in CM compositions (e.g., description of physical characteristics, etc) only reinforce ideas and are also useful.

Please note I am not against praising Rama and Krishna per se, it is the underlying themes that I feel have become repetitive and narrow especially considering the vast variety of excellent themes that are available now.

For example, my composition on Chinmayananda is really about upanishadic ideas (which are entirely philosophical, not "religious"). I am not interested in the minute details of Chinmayananda's life. But I am also not interested in writing descriptive compositions about ideas alone - that has little appeal to me in the context of CM. It can be done through other forms of expression.

But the lyrics of the composition provide the material for reflection and contemplation of the theme. In my composition on Kalam, the theme is to reflect upon the ideal of an Indian President, a modern philosopher-king. The imagery conveyed through the words is the critical part - it should make people contemplate. e.g. where our national defense came from. Using Kalam as the carrier has far more appeal to me than writing a composition which says "Let us reflect on the ideal of a President".

Also, e.g. - The composition on Ambani - it is not about patting him on the back for making a lot of money. It is about reflection regarding where our prosperity comes from, and who creates wealth and how. Of course, all of the compositions have other "decorative paraphernalia" (e.g. physical descriptions - which are often used to identify the subject).

This is what I mean when I say that considering "secular themes" as some kind of "parallel artform" or "in between film and classical music" is insulting to not only the future composers but the past "bhakta" composers. It misses the point altogether. Ideally, classical music (CM) compositions should be savored by the thinking man. In the context of bhakti-compositions, we have contributors like VGV who are extensively summarizing the devotional/spiritual ideas that the composer is trying to communicate behind the words of the composition. Similarly, "Secular themes" must also be taken in the same spirit. The listener is not expected to shut his/her brain and heart off.

Of course, more power to future composers who want to take a different approach to presenting the ideas - I am not claiming to be "doing everything".

Finally, this idea of "narastuti" in CM is a product of mistaken interpretation of previous compositions without understanding the context. I personally have no interest in currying favor with any of the "people" in the compositions. Previous composers rejected "narastuti' when they were presented with a choice of praising someone in order to make a living. This is entirely different from writing compositions on Rama (who is also a "nara") - where the idea behind the composition is of importance, not the man-god himself.

SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 05 Feb 2008, 22:18, edited 1 time in total.

vidya
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Post by vidya »

Arasi and others,
I should have used the word In praise of a person rather than use the word narastuti which brings in a lot of connotations in people's minds. In this context I used the term in its raw literal sense and not in a qualitative comparison of God stuti=higher, mortal stuti=lower. Also I have observed (and find it easy to write in Sanskrit) lyrics on people. Whcih is why I said I would for a change like to see someone write lyrics on an idea or nature or something else other than adjectival description of a person. Because I also think it would require linguistic ability of a much higher order as one cannot get away with simple adjectives and borrowed phrases.I am saying this also on personal experience trying to express an idea in sanskrt and not reflective of anyone elses compositions here.

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Post by Suji Ram »

Whcih is why I said I would for a change like to see someone write lyrics on an idea or nature or something else other than adjectival description of a person.
Bhaja gOvidam of Sri Shankaracharya comes to my mind immediately. (I find this composition secular when seen in a different angle).

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Vidya,
vidya wrote:Whcih is why I said I would for a change like to see someone write lyrics on an idea or nature or something else other than adjectival description of a person. Because I also think it would require linguistic ability of a much higher order as one cannot get away with simple adjectives and borrowed phrases.I am saying this also on personal experience trying to express an idea in sanskrt and not reflective of anyone elses compositions here.
Firstly, irrespective of your specific point on composition style, I am glad the discussion on "themes" and "people" unfolded. I think it was a good idea to have it.

Secondly, I do understand your specific point. Yes, in Sanskrit CM compositions, the typical style is to have the primary noun and the verb (often there is only one verb in the entire composition) in the pallavi, and the rest of the composition contains adjectival compounded descriptors. I cannot speculate on the historical origins of this structure, but I can say that it provides significant economy of expression, which is critical in a CM composition if one is to keep it fairly short. This is a great advantage of Sanskrit, at the same time it demands more interpretative effort from the receiver.

Indeed, CM compositions are primarily to communicate ideas, but unlike prose they have to do so in a very short time. It is not for nothing that compositions of MD and ST are more properly called "prose-in-verse". The adjective-compound approach allows one to pack many ideas and images into a small space. For example, Swati Tirunal was a Sanskrit scholar and poet of a very high order. His "bhavayami raghuramam" is written as a super-short Ramayana. While it follows the adjectival style, it flows very smoothly and tells the story very well.

That being said, I think it is pretty straightforward to express ideas in a narrative manner than in an adjectival manner. The bhagavad gita does this, for example. Doing so in CM, of course, it would certainly add another style to our repertoire. It is even easier since one does not have to follow chandas (meter) as in Sanskrit poetry.

Personally speaking - of my 37 compositions, I usually compose in the "adjectival" style. However, you can see examples of the "narrative" style as well, see my composition on Subhas Bose. In the 1st half of the charanam I use a narrative style. Not because I found it a nice challenge to be narrative, but I used it to explore alliteration. The reduplicated perfect (which in itself contains alliteration) along with appropriately chosen nouns generates interesting effects. I will be delighted to compose in the future using this style, if you would like to see more of it. Also, I do not know Tamil, but I daresay that forum stalwarts like CML could easily translate a "narrative-style" Tamil composition into a narrative Sanskrit one with nice flow of words and prosody.

SR

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Post by srkris »

Suji Ram wrote:Bhaja gOvidam of Sri Shankaracharya comes to my mind immediately. (I find this composition secular when seen in a different angle).
Bhaja Govindam is a philosophical song, not a devotiontal one. It is therefore secular (though not irreligious/against religion per se). I am even inclined to think it is less about worshipping Govinda than about sharing the thoughts of Govinda as found in the Bhagavad Gita et al (multiple meanings are possible for the root "bhaj-" which may not entirely be apparent at first glance.

Also the use of the phrase dukrnj karane refers to actions and their use (karma vs jnana) which also must be apparent from a glance in Panini's Dhatupatha.

Otherwise why should it be called Moha Mudgara? Its less about bhakti (as in blind bhakti as the end-all approach) and more about discernment and discrimination (jnana) as the pathway to salvation.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

as in blind bhakti as the end-all approach
srkris,
Wonderful!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vidya, SR; Given what you two shared so excellently about the pecularities/difficulties about expressing concepts directly in Sanskrit, can you indulge in this: As I mentioned before, the composition in Tamil 'Oh Oh kAlamE, Sahana, Mayuram Vedanayakam Pillai', sounds to me is all about concepts and is a type of composition that Vidya is looking for. What will its appropriate translation in Sanskrit be like, especially when set to music? I am just curious. May be, both of you can attempt it and share your creations here. It need not be a translation but an equivalent composition carrying the same concepts.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

srkris wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:Bhaja gOvidam of Sri Shankaracharya comes to my mind immediately. (I find this composition secular when seen in a different angle).
Its less about bhakti (as in blind bhakti as the end-all approach) and more about discernment and discrimination (jnana) as the pathway to salvation.
Both correct. "Govinda" is the carrier of the idea, not the theme itself. Similarly, a composition such as "chinmayanandasya bhakto bhavami" has little to do with "bhakti" despite the fact that it starts with an assertion of being a "bhakta".

All (or most) current CM compositions lead to the idea of spiritual union with the divine (even many of the more "amorous" padas and javalis, and indeed the raas-lila of Krishna himself). This spiritual theme is now well-established in CM. My belief is that other intellectual themes should get their due place as well.

SR

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vasanthakokilam wrote:As I mentioned before, the composition in Tamil 'Oh Oh kAlamE, Sahana, Mayuram Vedanayakam Pillai', sounds to me is all about concepts and is a type of composition that Vidya is looking for. What will its appropriate translation in Sanskrit be like, especially when set to music?
As I mentioned , I do not know Tamil, hence it is very difficult for me to wrap my mind around the spirit of the composition in order to translate its essence into Sanskrit. CML or DRS would definitely be "Go-To" persons on this one !

SR

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

Coolkarni,
I take the privilege of asking a few questions to you because I do not know others well.

(1) You have said that on 8th there will be a concert by Thathwamasi. What is the guarantee based on which you made that statement? (I am not casting doubt about the musician.) By the time we answer the question satisfactorily, 8th would have come and gone, but let us assume that it will not come till we answer it.

(2) What is the essential difference between Re 1/- note (which for purposes have gone out of circulation) and notes of any other denomination? I will answer it - Re 1/- note is the only one issued by the Government of India - all other notes are issued by RBI based on that Re 1/- denomination. Should the Government of India collapse - assume for a moment it does - what is the use of truck loads of notes held by people?

(3) Did I hear gold? Assume that all women threw away all the gold ornaments as worthless Earth, what happens to gold as a bartering medium?

I can understand your annoyance as to why I am wasting time of people here in the forum. Yesterday Ramakrishnan made a comment about 'blind faith'. Aren't we all functioning based on this blind faith? Every moment of our lives is based on this blind faith - we all glibly think otherwise.

This blind faith - I am not talking about fundamentalist who hold on to the form forgetting the substance - is the one which made 'Padma Pada' - the foremost of disciple of Adi Sankaracharya - to walk on the Ganga in spate - You may dismiss it as cock and bull story. BTW, it is stated that Bhaja Govindam was composed not only by Adi Sankaracharya and other disciples also. There is a statement - kincidapi murAri samarca - is it jnAna or bhakti?

When Bharati said 'bhakti paNNi pizhaikkac connAL, payan karudAdu uzhaikkac connAL' was he also having blind faith?

When Krishna said 'sarva dharmAn parityajya mAmEkaM SaraNam vraja' was he making a false promise?

When Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, reportedly ate faeces, was he displaying blind faith? Isn't that worm squirming in faeces and we are made up of one stuff?

Are we going to remain slaves in this Universe of blind faith or participate in the grand sport that is being enacted fully surrendering ourselves to the lakshya of blind faith and declare -

na mE kulkarNyasti trishu lOkeshu kincana |
nAnavAptaM avAptavyam varta Eva ca karmaNi ||

SR,
This is my response to your post. Please try to fathom Indian wisdom and understand why it is still as fresh and vibrant as a new born baby. Kindly do not declare that - this will die - that will lose hold. The whole edifice has been built up by artisans of much greater prowess and knowledge than maya and visvakarma - put together. Music is no different.

sbala
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Post by sbala »

VGV- That CM will die is purely SR's opinion. That you can save it through compositions on Ambani and Manmohan are also his views. That such compositions express deep ideas that require you to make fantastic leaps of abstraction denied to men of lesser faculty, are also his thoughts. There are many of us who still don't agree with some of these assertions. I don't believe we are going to convince each other as these are subjective topics and we all have strong views. The only thing that we all appear to agree on is that CM should also include secular themes. Let us just listen to all the views and if it doesn't fit in with our model, feel free to reject it.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Sbala,
sbala wrote:The only thing that we all appear to agree on is that CM should also include secular themes.
That is the one and only point of this thread.
sbala wrote:VGV- That CM will die is purely SR's opinion. That you can save it through compositions on Ambani and Manmohan are also his views.
I think there is a strong misrepresentation of my views here. I didn't say that CM will die and vanish within a certain period of time. I said it will not remain a vigorous and healthy art form if secular themes of many types are not included. Also, claiming that I said "it will be saved (whatever that means) through compositions on Ambani and Manmohan" is a gross misrepresentation. These are most certainly not my views, so kindly do not state them as such.
That such compositions express deep ideas that require you to make fantastic leaps of abstraction denied to men of lesser faculty, are also his thoughts.
Again, this is not an appropriate representation of my views by any means. I am not sure where these statements are coming from, but I going to ignore this type of "third-person mudslinging". I have made it clear that my contributions address (hopefully in some small measure) a larger issue in our classical music.
There are many of us who still don't agree with some of these assertions.
If one wishes to put up a straw man and then shoot it down, then I agree that provides an unusual kind of satisfaction.

I hope that more "discerning" readers (who are capable of the said "fantastic leaps of abstraction") will ignore this type of chatter which pulls the entire discussion down a few notches.

SR

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vgvindan wrote:SR,
This is my response to your post. Please try to fathom Indian wisdom and understand why it is still as fresh and vibrant as a new born baby. Kindly do not declare that - this will die - that will lose hold. The whole edifice has been built up by artisans of much greater prowess and knowledge than maya and visvakarma - put together. Music is no different.
VGV,

If you have indeed read my posts through, you might see that I am not making any unwarranted or unsubstantiated claims. The purpose of discussions is to address "Secular Themes in CM". As I have mentioned several times, I am not trying to plug for/against any composer or musician X or Y. Any specific individuals mentioned were for purposes of clarification. If you do not agree, that is fine too.

Regarding "Indian wisdom", my impression (being an Indian) is that it is continuously evolving, including said "edifices" built up by artisans of great prowess. If you believe that Indian wisdom has already achieved everything there is worthwhile to achieve and built all edifices worth building, then you must be truly in a state of exalted bliss (saccidananda). While I fully agree that I might not be fathoming this wisdom in entirety, I would like (with my little knowledge) to contribute towards evolving it further. I am heartened to know that irrespective of the success of such misguided efforts, I can always return to take refuge in the "perfect wisdom" which already exists and is fathomed by you in full detail.

SR

kjrao
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Post by kjrao »

My 2 cents:

1. As a first step, secular themes may be introduced in teaching basics of CM . If such teaching material can be introduced in schools and children get attracted to it, we may then develop this idea further.

2. Secular themes may be more appropriate in Dance Dramas and the related musical compositions can be in CM . This is just to give a taste of CM (because of the limited scope within the drama) - I am sure such experiments are being done already.

3. Very few secular themes can stand the test of time - there will always be changes from generation to generation - along with it the taste for a particular genre of music will also change.

4. The sahitya of CM is like a Mantra. For the uninitiated, it's meaning is very limited.For that reason, one can't call it a limitation.

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Post by vasanthakokilam »

rajumds wrote:3. Till about 100 years back CM concerts were mainly RTP based which would not have had bakthi or bhavam.(to the extend of Trinity's kritis)
I was thinking along these lines as well while reading this thread and the previous thread where this started. Your point is what we hear/read from accounts of the music scene of the 19th century ( and before probably ). I am sure there were religious theme based singing in other contexts but atleast the royalty sponsored CM concerts were mainly RTP based. I do not recall reading what the structure of the temple concerts were. Probably RTP based.

What were the women singers, mostly from the devadasi community, singing in CM concerts ( and not dance )? Padams and Javalis or were they singing the Trinity's compositions or compositions of the Nattuvanars from their family/community. We have heard that RTP was primarily practised by male musicians then.

One data point we can gather is: In the early part of the 20th century, HMV seemed to have exhaustively recorded all the female singers they could find ( this is before DKP, MSS etc. ). The records were quite popular and so HMV searched wide and deep to find capable singers and recorded them. If there is a list, we can use that to guage the 'themes' of the repertoire of those singers.

So, it will be interesting to know the history of the 19th century on the prevalence and the frequency of singing of the Trinity's krithis in concerts. Or this was mostly a 20th century phenomenon?

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Post by sbala »

SR,
I have lot of respect for your views and I do not want to enter into any mudslinging. Maybe, the tone of my post came across as such and if that's the case, I apologise and the mods can go ahead and delete the post.

However, to claim that you never said CM will die when you have made this statement "Religious-based art forms invariably die if they do not change into more secular forms." is a bit hard to understand . Maybe, you didn't mean it that way but I did assume you meant CM will suffer the same fate. Again, I'm sorry if this was a misinterpretation.

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Post by knandago2001 »

“CM needs to be reclaimed by a wider, secular and creative critical massâ€

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Post by srkris »

vgvindan wrote:Yesterday Ramakrishnan made a comment about 'blind faith'. Aren't we all functioning based on this blind faith? Every moment of our lives is based on this blind faith - we all glibly think otherwise.
I didnt decry blind faith. It may be a necessity in our day to day lives to recognize that blind faith exists. What I meant is that there is no reason to glorify it either. We definitely dont need any Adi Shankara or Bhaja Govindam if we just need to act on blind faith. In fact we dont need anything at all to support a blind faith.

Blind faith in our lives is more a necessity rather than a virtue. And we are attempting to make a virtue of a necessity. In spite of all human failings, we still have a brain, and however imperfect it is, we can reason to an extent. I wanted to say that the Bhaja Govindam therefore is not a devotional song, it is a philosophical song (with perhaps devotional undertones), its main import is philosophical and not devotional.

The older traditions (of the Vedas and Upanishads) are primarily based on reasoning and not on beliefs. There is no reason to impose puranic ideas and approaches upon on vedic ones and declare that everything is about bhakti. Let me reiterate again that I am not decrying Bhakti or beliefs, however blind they may be. I am saying that to see bhakti in all ancient literature is only to delude ourselves. We have had a very highly diverse literary and musical output even in historical times.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

SR,
I did not say that Indian Wisdom is static and did not evolve or could not or would not or should not evolve. Every organism undergoes evolution every moment. But to declare that if it did not evolve in so and so direction, it will die is a dogmatic statement. It is advisable that those who want to genuinely participate and contribute in the evolutionary process, avoid such statements.

Mother nature reveals her secrets to those who approach her like a child - some scientist made this statement - I do not know who.

I have seen a few posts in praise of Ambanis and Lalu Prasad Yadav on these forums. I sincerely hope this is not what meant by Secular themes. There is nothing wrong, but such kritis will have to be rewritten every five years (MP/MLA tenure) or when there is partitiion in the family.
Last edited by vgvindan on 06 Feb 2008, 16:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by vgvindan »

srkris,
I request you to read Adi Sankara's Sivananda Lahari and then revisit your opinion.

vidya
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Post by vidya »

Sangeet Rasik wrote:Vidya,

[Personally speaking - of my 37 compositions, I usually compose in the "adjectival" style. However, you can see examples of the "narrative" style as well, see my composition on Subhas Bose.

SR
Rather than terms such as adjectival vs narrative let me try to call this 'Templated approach to compositions'. It seems to me sanskrt compositions were largely stuck
to the 'mAmava X. or 'Y bhAvaye/bhAvayAmi/insert other verb here' in the pallavi, supporting anupallavi and the rest are the sahasranAmam type phrases.The few exceptions to this are MD's 'Sadhu jana citta', 'mAye tvam yAhi' (musically and lyrically a very different template) and Sadashiva brahmendra's 'kElati piNDANDe' .Interestingly enough all three are philosophical themes. Even in the bhAvayE, samraksha templates Dikshitar innovated in the form of groups or vibhaktis.

This is where I think Tyagaraja was a sheer genius. He could begin his kRtis with offbeat lines such as 'lEkanA ninu jUtukonnAru' or 'mA jAnaki cetta baTTaga maharAjuvaitivi' and yet give
a complete melodic entity.

Other than Balamurali Krishna I hardly find this kind of lyrical innovation today. 200 years from these composers we stick to the same templates, move from
praising a deity to praising a person. So yes I do find this kind of approach to secular themes rather uninspiring.

Vasanthakokilam, will look at the oh kAlame and respond later.

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Post by sindhu »

MayUram vEdanAyam piLLai songs can be suited to any Religion, God, which are unique.

Other composers had chosen a particular God and described their qualities.

Some songs are :

1) karuNAlaya nidhiyE - HindOLam - Adi
2) dayaipuriya innum - MalayamArutham - Roopakam

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

kjrao wrote:My 2 cents:

1. As a first step, secular themes may be introduced in teaching basics of CM . If such teaching material can be introduced in schools and children get attracted to it, we may then develop this idea further.
That is worth thinking about.
3. Very few secular themes can stand the test of time - there will always be changes from generation to generation - along with it the taste for a particular genre of music will also change.
As long as human beings exist, secular themes will always exist. It is not at all important that the themes themselves "stand the test of time". What is important is that there is a mechanism for continuity. The fact that the "religious" music of the past has changed in genre many times should be enough evidence that "religious" music genres don't stand the test of time either. In 1635 Venkatamakhin declared the four cornerstones of classical music to be Alapa, Thaya, Gita, and Prabandha. Today nobody is performing thaya and gita and prabandha in concert format - even alapa has changed in form from what it meant in those times.
4. The sahitya of CM is like a Mantra. For the uninitiated, it's meaning is very limited.For that reason, one can't call it a limitation.
It is essential to "de-mantra"ize CM. Sooner the better. From our experience of the "ultimate mantras" i.e. vedas, whose active influence on India is pretty much dead at this point, it is essential to avoid presenting CM as a "mantra" understandable to only the select "initiated" few.

SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 06 Feb 2008, 18:39, edited 1 time in total.

vidya
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:26

Post by vidya »

Sangeet Rasik,
My previous post somehow got cut off.. I'll try to post something in Sanskrt to elaborate what I was trying to say..Say I am trying to write some lyrics in sanskrt as if Kalyani (the ragam) was narrating her history..

mama nAmadhEyam kalyANi, O rasika.
mama caritra vishEsham vadAmi, shruNu

gOvinda tanaya nindita caritram
gOvinda mArga tyAgarAja vandita caritram
bhAvendu jita mati dIkshitOpAsita caritram

na mE turushka rAgam na mE adhama rAgam
naravara vishAla sancArOttama rAgam

gOvinda tanaya - Venkatamakhin
gOvunda mArga - Sangaraha cuDAmani

In this process I frequently ended up being challenged in trying to express what I wanted to express. Perhaps a reflection of my limited/rusty sanskrt vocabulary . I found that the same thought process flowed much more freely in Tamil. Again I typically stop with writing poetry as I am rather musically challenged in a lot of ways.

My concluding posts:

1.Whether you write secular or religious or musical theme why are'nt we as a generation emulating the trinity
in their 'out of the box' thinking and stop with emulating in their templates and contents?
2.If you want to compose please do not stop at the lowest rung of creativity.
3.A hundred theoritical arguments apart, this is a suggestion to the active members of this site:
Why don't we take up some theme of the month in the innovations forum and let the various folks here take a jab at composing, the more the languages the better
(The more languages the better and see where it goes, it certainly would be a good exercise)
Last edited by vidya on 06 Feb 2008, 18:44, edited 1 time in total.

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vgvindan wrote:SR,
I did not say that Indian Wisdom is static and did not evolve or could not or would not or should not evolve. Every organism undergoes evolution every moment. But to declare that if it did not evolve in so and so direction, it will die is a dogmatic statement. It is advisable that those who want to genuinely participate and contribute in the evolutionary process, avoid such statements.

Mother nature reveals her secrets to those who approach her like a child - some scientist made this statement - I do not know who.

I have seen a few posts in praise of Ambanis and Lalu Prasad Yadav on these forums. I sincerely hope this is not what meant by Secular themes. There is nothing wrong, but such kritis will have to be rewritten every five years (MP/MLA tenure) or when there is partitiion in the family.
VGV,

I think we have reached the limit of discussions given our current positions. I have substantiated my specific claims as to why a specific direction (secular themes) should be taken. It is up to individuals to examine the claims, consider the history of "relgious" culture, and come to their own conclusions. However, to state that people who try to take a different path have not obtained a sufficient understanding of the "secrets" of the previous one, is pure obscurantism.

It is interesting you should mention the two specific compositions again. I have discussed them earlier, and explained their background. There are also many other compositions posted, which of course escaped your scrutiny. Someone who does not understand the difference between secular composition (and its purpose) and religious composition, will not see the point of . If you think the purpose of the kritis was to "praise" person XYZ and rewrite such a composition every 10 years, you are wholly mistaken.

Furthermore, as I said, the obsession with "kritis that last for ever" is extremely strange and indeed a drawback of CM. I hope you will understand that secular themes are of undying interest in art as long as human beings exist - this is experience throughout the world. Mechanisms for continuity of the art form, which are compatible with continuous social change, are far more valuable than sticking to a narrow set of "religious" themes with the justification that the compositions themselves will last longer in the imagination (that is not particularly important to me).

SR

vgvindan
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

So my take is that the bhakti movement had high ideals in philosophy but shied away from sociological issues and resistant to change.

Again the problem with prEma bhakti also is not just the philosophical explanation that male actually is just a mere symbolic word. The associated sociological issue that arises here is this. A goddess is a pati vrta and hence a male devotee is not allowed to show this prEma bhakti whereas Gods are free to move around.It is this pretext and subtext that many of us cannot agree.
Bhakti, or Divine love, though in itself one only, manifests itself in the following eleven different forms : (a) Love of the glorification of the Lord's blessed qualities (guNa mAhAtmyAsakti) (b) Love of His enchanting Beauty (rUpAsakti) (c) Love of Worship (pUjAsakti) (d) Love of Constant remembrance (smaraNAsakti) (e) Love of Service (dAsyAsakti) (f) Love of Him as a friend (sakhyAsakti) (g) Love of Him as a son (vAtsalyAsakti) (h) Love of Him as that of a wife for her husband (kAntAsakti) (j) Love of self surrender to Him (Atma nivEdanAsakti) (k) Love of complete absorption in Him (tan-mayatAsakti) (l) Love of pain of separation from Him (parama virahAsakti) - Narada Bhakti Sutras (82) (Translation by Swami Tyagisananda)

Vivekananda said 'let there be as many religions as there are human beings' (or words to that effect). Who can stop one from adopting any of these paths or divising one's own? Bhakti is after all a very personal matter between devotee and the Lord. No one, no socieity can come in between.

vgvindan
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

.Whether you write secular or religious or musical theme why are'nt we as a generation emulating the trinity in their 'out of the box' thinking and stop with emulating in their templates and contents?
May I suggest? The inspiration for a piece of poetry comes when one is performing rAga Alapana. Raga comes first and Kriti next.

vgvindan
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

A strange utilitarian World!
When it is needed to justify our day-to-day existence, we do not mind adopting 'faith'. But if the same faith is reposed on God by a person based on his understanding and utility, we call it 'blind faith'.

Kettle calling pot black?

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Post by uday_shankar »

vidya wrote:If you want to compose please do not stop at the lowest rung of creativity.
Such advise I hope includes the totality of the musical experience.

The lyrical content of musical compositions I should imagine are at the lower rungs of poetry ? Can't one look for much more creative poetry towards Kalidasa, etc.. than say towards MD ?

Likewise, the philosophical content of bhatki-based compositions is limited too. One can bypass Carnatic music completely, immerse oneself in the study of the upanisads, yoga vashishta, Shankara, vidyaranya, and so on.

Likewise, the bhakti content of bhajan sessions is often much more sincere and heart-felt than Carnatic music, for it is bereft of any musical pretensions.

As for spiritual upliftment, there's greater upliftment in silence of a Ramana. And Carnatic or any other music feels completely out of place when hiking in the silence of the forest or amidst the glaciers in the Himalayas.

So what's special about Carnatic music ? I think it is the totality of the experience that is strung together via the medium of..... did I mention music ?

Any "composing" that relegates music itself to the back seat strikes me as quite weird. This is where the trinity excelled most and this is what great contemporary musicians trying a hand at composing are awed by. I'm no musician or composer and I don't understand a word of telugu and I don't care much for bhakti but everytime I learn a Tyagaraja kriti I marvel at the superb flow of the music and the way the rAga is brought out and in spite of myself I choke up, unable to proceed further. I am compelled to believe therefore, that some of that special "life" in those compositions have been imparted by the transcendental bhakti of the composer. This feeling is rarely matched by ordinary compositions.

As for secular themes, there are social justice issues, gender issues, environmental issues, conservation issues, biodiversity, sustainable equitable "development"... the list is endless. Somehow, I have to live this schizophrenic life where the Carnatic world bears aboslutely no connection with such important issues of the day. Therefore, it is laudable that Sangeet Rasik has tried to at least talk about "secular" themes. I really think it is very important to connect all issues in an attempt to lead a wholesome life.

We should worry as much as is possible about the totality of the Karmic chain that affects us. In North American temples, the most widely used substance is styrofoam. Huge mounds of it. Those of us who worry about landfills and biodegradability know that styrofoam takes millions of years to degrade and it is a petroleum byproduct. Both modern evils. Styrofoam will remain in the landfill long after the temple and the puranas have disappeared. But the "devotees" who go to the temple and partake of the "prasad" couldn't be bothered to get better informed about this. In fact, you might even convince them that styrofoam is an ancient "Vedic" substance :-).

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