Learn Violin or Mridangam at around 40 yrs of age?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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raj-123
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Joined: 24 Dec 2006, 20:36

Post by raj-123 »

I live in California Bay area now and there are violin/mridangam teachers in the area, I have not contacted any but I know there are teachers. I am also not sure if they take beginner level students. My question for experts is if given a choice to learn a instrumental form at age 40+ for male, what is preferable - violin or mridangam. I listen to lot of carnatic music, but have no formal training. I also plan to return to India in few years to Chennai and would lke to continue there learning. In past few years I have thought about this, then I leave it for fear of unknowns and effort required. Any thoughts or opinions welcome.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

I started learning mridangam when I was over 40.

I'll pass on my teacher's opinion that, had I practised and studied properly I couold have been a good player and a good teacher. The fact that I let it drop is not really anything to do with age, I don't think, although I won't deny that a bright young fresh brain helps.

UKS has a student in his seventies.

I think that person in your situation of any age should remember that there are not only two kinds of music student: professional performers and failures. That misconception, even if only semi-conscious, puts a lot of people off doing any learning at all.

I went as a music student for the sole reason that I wanted to understand a little more about what I was seeing on stage. I never wanted or expected to play on stage. The fact that I did, quite often, albeit with children, was an amazing bonus.

You can learn music to your own level, to your own satisfaction, although you must, of course, find a teacher who admits of this too.

I am sure you will find teachers who will take you as a beginner. Some teachers would rather have a 40-yr-old novice than someone who has been learning bad habits of a bad teacher for two decades!

You may find yourself sitting in a room full of ten-year-olds. So... you're back at school, enjoy your second childhood! I joined up with two 11-yr-olds, playing mridangam and ghatam, and, as the morsing on the team, I was the junior. We played together many times, often for my mridangam friend's mother's vina students --- had a wonderful time!

Go for out. You can only find out by trying. there really is no other way. Don't have any fear: the worst than happen is that you find it is not for you --- and you just go back to being in the audience.

I make no comment as to which you should try...

srkris
Site Admin
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Post by srkris »

My personal (uninformed) opinion is that mridangam is easier to learn since laya is more ingrained in our consciousness than sruti or any other melodic aspect of the music.

VK RAMAN
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:29

Post by VK RAMAN »

When I was learning Vishnusahasranaamam, sooktam, rudram, chamakam, etc for almost 1 year in India, my classmates were of the age of 5 years to 12 years? A child in one self helps to get over the issue of age. nick H is right on the money in his comments.

bahudari
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007, 14:36

Post by bahudari »

I know a lady who in her late seventies who secured 1st rank in senior exam in violin last year.

sankirnam
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Joined: 07 Sep 2006, 14:18

Post by sankirnam »

Either one is fine... all you need is a desire to learn, and plenty of time to practice!

But like Nick said, UKS sir has a student in his 70's (and, as he likes to say, not just any student... the retired general manager of Mahendra Bank!) proving that age is no barrier.

manvantara
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Joined: 04 Apr 2008, 01:10

Post by manvantara »

What do YOU *really* want to learn - violin or mridangam?

Nick's input is very valuable here, as he speaks from experience.

If you love carnatic music so much and are not content standing outside and listening, jump right in! You will have to practice a lot (like anyone else) but there is a great likelihood that you will enjoy it. What's more, being in touch with someone in the field will give you more opportunities to broaden your horizon regarding music (apart from your lessons) and your own level as a rasika will improve as you begin to understand and appreciate more.

I started learning Bharatanatyam when I was six. I learnt for a few years but back then, my parents felt they did not have the money to support me further (arangetram, for instance) and I too was not passionate about it. What those years of dance did to me, though, was to make me interested in watching recitals, appreciate and try to understand more. Later, at the age of 28, I came across a famous Mohiniattam dancer and immediately decided to start learning - and I have been a student for several years now. I thoroughly enjoy the classes - there is nothing as lovely as that the "atma trupthi" that this brings. :)

One more example: My mother recently started learning music...... at the age of 65! She used to listen to a lot of carnatic music and is a well informed rasika, but whenever she tried to sing/hum, she was tired of hearing the wrong swaras, so she finally started learning and....you should hear her sing now - I am proud of her! She sang the prayer song at a inauguration of a 10 day Sanskrit camp (attended by a few hundred participants) and several people came up to her asking for the lyrics, raga, etc, taking them down and asking her to teach them later, when they all had some free time!

mridhangam
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56

Post by mridhangam »

Members

Traces back to the Great Manpoondia Pillai who didnt take up music till he was in his late thirties. He is still regarded as one of the best. He is the Pioneer of Pudukkottai tradition. Do you want any further proof than this ? Instead just brooding over the pros and cons .. as Manvantara Just said "JUMP RIGHT IN".
There is no age for learning. Learning is the first step. Practice is the next step. Your vision is the third. Your goal is the 4th. All these motivate u to work. The higher the Goal the better the learning, the better the practice the better your vision. It is all interlinked. The more you work faster you reach the goal.

That is what i think. may be Erudite people in this Elite Rasikas can throw more light on this.

Mannarkoil J.Balaji

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

A slightly different take on what I have already made known.

Once upon a time, after years of sitting through concerts in London, I decided I wanted to know a little more. I determined to learn tabla. I even bought tabla, and a couple of books.

But then it happened that

--- one particular carnatic vocal performance by a Bangalore-origin, London-based vocalist called Manorama Prasad fairly knocked me back in my seat

--- a drummer friend who had an old mridangam in the corner of his room gave it to me and I got it repaired

--- I met the mridangam teacher at Bharatya Vidya Bhavan, in their bookshop while looking for tabla books (If only I had discovered BVB 20 years before! I always thirsted for Indian music).

Perhaps I should warn people against learning mridangam... I doubt very much that I would be settled and living here in Chennai today, if I had not taken those steps.

Beware! Mridagam can change your life! :lol:

srikant1987
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Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23

Post by srikant1987 »

What Ramki (srkris) is right about layam being ingrained in all of us, but I think someone who listens to quite some Carnatic music — in fact melodic music in general — should be able to grasp the violin easily too.

But as I say this ... I have recently become suddenly keen on understanding harmony. I wonder if I'll be too hard. :( There are TOO MANY chords!
Last edited by srikant1987 on 30 Aug 2008, 19:06, edited 1 time in total.

chalanata
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Post by chalanata »

the forum is a great place for learning lessons late in life. there are great masters here and I had learnt quite a few lessons here!

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Raj-123,
There! More than one, two, three valuable suggestions from the professional practitioners of the mrudangam (Mannarkoil Balji, Sankirnam), to talented amateurs like Nick, chalanata and others with their encouraging input backed by lot of experience. Above all, their encouraging spirit!
Nick is right. Nothing like learning alongside a group of youngsters as classmates. Their youthful spirit will bring out the child in you--and it is fun to watch them giggle a bit at first to find an 'oldie' in their midst. 'A child in oneself' is awakened, as VKRaman puts it.
sankirnam said it so well: all you need is the desire to learn and plenty of time to practice!
manvantara's 'you will enjoy it!' is a key phrase in his post.
Take it from one of the elders on the forum (that's moi)--the enjoyment
is in 'learning'--age is erased when you are steeped in your learning .
Balaji gives the example of Manpoondia Pillai who was a late bloomer but came to stay as an important figure in the history of mrudangam.
Good luck to you.You have enough encouragement to launch on your lessons. Hope you find a teacher who is understanding. The cheerleaders on the forum are keen on hearing from you about your progress...

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

srikant1987 wrote:What Ramki (srkris) is right about layam being ingrained in all of us, but I think someone who listens to quite some Carnatic music — in fact melodic music in general — should be able to grasp the violin easily too.

But as I say this ... I have recently become suddenly keen on understanding harmony. I wonder if I'll be too hard. :( There are TOO MANY chords!
Whilst Layam is, undoubtedly, ingrained in us all, for without it our hearts would fail and we would look very silly even trying to walk, accessing it consciously is another matter. I have to admit that I thought my sense of rhythm was quite good, until my first mridangam class!

Tha! one two three
Dhi! one two three
Thom! one two three
Nam! one two three

... and that is slow, which is tougher than fast, to get the timing right.

I'm still, as I've often said, not that impressed with my laya sense, even though mridangam classes sharpened it quite noticeably.

But I learned to tune mridangam and morsing --- and I didn't think I'd ever be able to do that!

Grasping a violin isn't so hard, by the way --- but playing it is another matter altogether! But I think even that is easier than the flute...

It needs discipline (I guess that's where, ultimately, I fell down), and it means practising sometimes when its the last thing you want to do, but, on the whole, it should be enjoyable.

If it isn't --- take up gardening :)

srikant1987
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Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23

Post by srikant1987 »

Grasping a violin isn't so hard, by the way --- but playing it is another matter altogether! But I think even that is easier than the flute...

Oh ... I meant grasping Carnatic music and playing the violin. :P

It needs discipline (I guess that's where, ultimately, I fell down), and it means practising sometimes when its the last thing you want to do, but, on the whole, it should be enjoyable.
Aaha! Whom do you learn from? :) Can you also recognise some chords?

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

Oh, I meant learning in general, my experience being all on the percussion side; I never actually tried violin.

vk
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Joined: 18 May 2007, 19:13

Post by vk »

I started learning music (Veena) since 2006 only after i reached 35 yrs of age. For a beginner it can be quite demanding to learn to pull and slide along the strings. But I made it and now i can play one ata tala varna(Viriboni) and 13 adi tala varnas so far. Pulling and sliding came very naturally to me. But Tala is where i am weak in. I can figure out the kalapramana of jatis and also the switchover from one kala to another . But I cant figure out the individual tala sections. As a result i have to memorise the tala strokes. I started learning just for the sheer joy of experiencing that cutest sound from that wonderful instrument. As pointed out by professional and veteran musicians on this forum the sense of laya is something that one has to develop since a young age. So if the thread initiator thinks he wants to learn at 40 i would ask to him give it a shot.

vganesh
Posts: 263
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 16:25

Post by vganesh »

I am 40+ but started learning Mridangam 2 years back. I do feel jelous about my fellow students because the students who are with me are from class I(!). Neverthless as already said it is only a question of practice. The young obviously pick up fast but we need to compensate the same by practice... The great malayalam cine musician Dakshinamurty started after he is 40+..(that is what my guru told me =) ).
All the very best

Garumugam
Posts: 7
Joined: 16 Aug 2008, 00:17

Post by Garumugam »

Hi Vganesh;

I am an engineering graduate and now working as software architect here in London.
I am 39yrs now. Regulary spend sometime with rasikas.org to learn thala at least a bit. I read almost all of J Balaji Sir and Sharma Ji Sir. Marvellous explanation. I found master here after searching so much. I am really hesitating to attend the class since the students are from 5ysr here.

I just want to learn to play and understand when hearing professionals playing the mridangam; the great devine sience(physics),mathematics and THE GREAT ART.

Whenever I hear even a single syllable; I forget the world. May be my mind goes to meditation when I hear the mridangam sound(especially vibrating syllable....my god!).

Coming to the point; it would be great help if you share your learning curve. i.e how far you have learnt so far?
If you hear any mridangam concert will you be able to understand?? ( May silly question...)

My kid is going to start learning mridangam; waiting for Vijaya dasami.

MY SPECIAL TONS THANKS TO J.Balji Sir and Sharma Sir and ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL THE TEACHERS OR INDIVIDUAL who is reason in one or the otherway for educating this art the world.

WORLD IN MY IMAGINATION:
-----------------------------------

HOW THE WORLD WOULD BE IF EVERY INTERESTED PERSON CAN UNDERSTAND THIS GREAT ART.
WHEN UNDERSTANDING IS THERE THE ENJOYMENT WILL BE INFINITE!!!!!!!!

Many people are going to the concert listens/enjoys but cant understand it (I am one of them).
When I hear a music dont know to appreciate( Feel very handicapped). NOT ABLE TO UNDERSTAND but I cant be without hearing... Enna thavam seithanai, Mahaganapathim is one of them. AT LEAST WE NEED TO HAVE EDUCATED TO UNDERSTAND this devine art.

Any note giving me confidence is most welcome.

Thanks,
G Arumugam.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Arumugam,
Wish there were more people like you who are moved by music, have interest in learning, and want one's child to learn it as well.
Sorry to put it this way, but do you know that there are many out there who 'know' CM, practice it, but are more interested in the mechanics of it than the joy you seem to find in it? They have GnAnam (knowledge) without much anubhavam (experiencing the joy in it).
Let not someone's flaunting the names of rAgAs or tALas put you off. If you enjoyed that nameless (for you) rAga, fine. At times, you may be better off than someone who is concentrating more on whether the artiste is staying within the rAgA or is taking detours! In that instant, you have an advantage with having not as much knowledge! By all means, seek more learning and just stay with the enjoyment part of music. Your eagerness counts, and you will learn more as time goes by.
All the things you say about music is realized by a rasikA who is eager
in his pursuit of music and in the inner joy it brings him. Expert analysis alone will not make one realize it.
It is never too late to learn anything and of all things, music, even in one's ripe old years. So, go for it :)
Last edited by arasi on 10 Sep 2008, 21:53, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

Arumugam, you have such a choice of mridangam teachers in London. It is a great place to be a lover of, and even a student of, carnatic music, if you cannot be here in India itself.

Don't let the five-yr-olds scare you away. You'll soon find yourself being naughty too, when the teacher is not looking!

ragam-talam
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Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15

Post by ragam-talam »

I would suggest learning Vocal music first. As you know, CM is heavily sahitya based, hence a good understandng of the various kritis is quite critical. Once you have spent some time learning vocal music, you can then make a decision which way you want to go...percussion or melody.

Or you may decide you like vocal so much you could continue on as a vocalist!

In any case, as others have pointed out, it's important you enjoy what you do. All the best.
(From someone who has tried learning music in spurts and starts...hopefully one day I will take the plunge!)

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, garumudam, Thanks for your reverence and reference. Accidentally I have gone through your 18th post and thought to respond.
This music is a divine art which gives not only pleasure but also the most needed, but not found, PEACE. In which way anybody can have the sweet he likes much anybody can learn music how much he can at any age. But, as every woman always expects a good-husband only but finally adjusts herself with the husband she ultimately had, the aspirant in music also of the same category. Having spent for over 40 years in teaching life experimenting the teaching methods at every stage, only now, I, unlike any other teacher, am able to make this music-teaching time-bound and result oriented. In general, as all the music teachers, without any exception, earn money through this they will teach each and every aspirant who approaches them irrespective of his/her instinctive level either in Laya or Shruti. Even then they start teaching as per the traditional methods in which their Gurus have taught them. They never think or go beyond these traditional methods. More over, in the process of earning more money they are always used to elongate the process of teaching. I never charge even a single pie from any of my students and unless they are having the required instinctive level of Laya and Shruti and unless they practice for more than 4 to 5 hours daily, irrespective of any holiday, I shall not entertain them at all.

Who ever wants to learn cycling should only practice it more and the respective teacher must mostly make him practice cycling by running along with his cycle catching hold of the cycle some times not to let him fall down and mostly leaving him on his own to make him independent in cycling. In fact, he learns the balancing in cycling only when the teacher leaves him to cycle on his own. In the same way a responsible mother, at the first instance, makes her daughter sit in the kitchen and demonstrates cooking things for a couple of weeks, later, sits herself but remains vigilant initiating her daughter cook in her presence for the next couple of weeks and, lastly, goes away entrusting her daughter things to cook even in her absence just to make her independent in the process of cooking in the kitchen. Unless she trains her daughter in this manner she will be compelled to follow her to her in-laws house too. In the same manner, even in teaching anything, there will and should always be direct teaching and indirect teaching in the process of making the student independent.
That is why, you may believe or not, I shall demonstrate and directly teach upto Varnas only. Right from the first Kriti I shall teach him indirectly making him learn on his own but guiding him. That’s all. If all the teachers teach their students like that each and every student becomes independent in going further in music. Of course, there is a particular system in following this which is beyond all the traditional methods. By successfully following this system the teacher can make the aspirant sing a mini-concert of 2 hrs. at the least within a maximum period of 3 years. But, only the aspirants starting from their tender age between 8 and 12 years can only do this and the aspirants of 40 years of age may take more than 10 years to fulfill this or may not become able to do this at all. But, in the meantime, the teacher earns much either to celebrate their daughters’ marriages or to building his own house. Sorry, to be very frank. amsharma.

Garumugam
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Joined: 16 Aug 2008, 00:17

Post by Garumugam »

Thanks to Sharma Ji and each one for your vaulable inputs and sparing time.
Accounted the feedback.

May I request you all to share your learning experience also?. That would be great help for me.

As a teacher Sharma Ji gave the system
i.e A student of 8-12yrs with
hardwork of 5-6hrs a day
can give a 2hrs. concert in 3yrs (i.e at the age of 11-15yrs.)

The same system requires 10yrs for 40yrs old person.

Sharma Ji & ALL:

Let me put my objective more clear;
1st one:
" When I listen mridangam of any professional like UKS,PMI, Palani Subramaniam Pillai ....etc.....I should be able to understand that great science/devine art" If it is met more than enough for me above this are bonus.

Thanks :)
G Arumugam
Last edited by Garumugam on 11 Sep 2008, 21:28, edited 1 time in total.

PUNARVASU
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Post by PUNARVASU »

Garumugam,
welcome aboard the boat of sincere rasikas; many of us are happy to appreciate the nuances of this divine art form and when something wonderful is presented just be ablet o shake our head and savour it. As you said, everything over and above is a 'BONUS'. Join our clan and enjoy the music. 'idarkE koDuttu vaittirukkavENDum'. I am sure you understand tamizh.

bilahari
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:02

Post by bilahari »

Garumugam, since your objective is to understand the nuances of music, you should start learning right away without hesitation! There is no better way. And really, as time goes on in your learning, the bonuses that come by will be still sweeter!

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

pATTiRku nIrAm rasanai--
adillAdu paTTup pOgumAm PATTum...

Appreciation is like water unto a plant--
Without which music will wither...

vganesh
Posts: 263
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 16:25

Post by vganesh »

Dear GArumugam,

There is no specific learning curve. I have been playing for last two years weekly two classes. My Guruji is a disciple of Shri Guruvayoor Dorai. Very focused and chides you if you are not attending the classes (whether you are in Class I or 43 years old ; same treatment). Everyday practice is must. It was 30 minutes previously. Now he says to play the whole lessons taught which runs in quite long. He encourages practice more than 1 hour which is too much as after office hours you are dead like a log.You are out roughly 14 hours( inclusive of 3 hrs traveling in Mumbai)

He directly focus on performing on stage as a group and says it would take about 7 to 10 years to reach a level where in you can have some command. He already taught us a few regular Nadai, Korvai etc., which is generally played by vidhwans on the stage during Thani. So I am able decipher few micro portions of Thani when vidhawans play. The other advise is keep listening more and more and when ever you are free keep repeating the lesson with in yourself.

End of the day just do not worry. Join the class and start practice. Keep listening. There is no end to learn and there is no learning curve (on a lighter side). This is the very reason we need to put children at tender age so that they are flexible, can sit continuously for long hours, there are no mental blocks and they listen to masters more rapt than us. I have not learned anything formal till I joined this class.

Garumugam
Posts: 7
Joined: 16 Aug 2008, 00:17

Post by Garumugam »

Thanks Vganesh and other. All the inputs are really valuable.
And my special wishes to Vganesh for his strong determination for learning at the later age. That too being in Mubai with busy schedule and stressful travel in the heavy traffic.

Last 3 weeks I spent very intensly with one CD(Learning mrindangam) and lot of reading material.
Now by Theory I know
Talangas,Nadai,Jaati, Kanakku,Kala, Akshara,Matharai,variuos Yatis and a bit in talaprastara. I got some concepts clarified with J.Balaji Sir as well. I am struggling with Korvai when I study Utranga table and purvanga table from JB.

And I am eagerly waiting for the book "korvai made easy " from one of my friend coming from India.

I have been reading for the last 3 weeks.....and going mad nowadays.I will continue as far as I can grasp.

I have been listening music attentively from my 10yrs; Inspired by Dr.Balamurlaikrishna.

Once again thanks to all for the inputs.
G Arumugam

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, garumugam, My relation with music started from my age of 3 as a Mridangist without learning anything from anybody but observing the play of my father and many other Mridangists. I have also followed my father’s teaching of music along with his play of harmonium to some of the students. From my 8th year, even without learning anything, I have started singing all those lessons and also started playing harmonium too. Until then I hardly attended the general school but learnt reading and writing my mother tongue, Telugu along with English from my father who knows very little of English. In fact, he himself started learning English to, in turn, teach me later. At my 10th year, after giving me some training, my father compelled me to appear for the 7th-standard-examination and, somehow, made me passed with his influence as a renowned Astrologer and Ayurvedic Doctor. Thus, I was induced into 8th standard direct and with his influence passed 8th, 9th & 10th standards but successfully failed twice in the SSLC Examinations in 1951 & 52, being a public examination where influence will not work much. Later, studied Elementary-grade-teacher-training-course for two years, 1953 to 55 and successfully failed that also.
Later, in my 17th year, in 1955, on one day, on my request, my father, being also a Violinist, has shown me how to play the Violin and immediately I have successfully played the notes of Udayaravichandrika-raga then and there. Thus, I have started learning Violin from my father for 3 or 4 months, another 3 months from Shri P.P.Somayajulu (my boyhood friend and a Diploma holder in Violin) at the end of which I have appeared for the Lower-grade examination in Violin and, most surprisingly, passed the examination with distinction in Practicals and First-class in Theory (the first examination I have ever passed on my own as a lifetime-achievement), another 6 months again from Shri Somayajulu at the end of which I have appeared for the Higher-grade-examination and, again surprisingly, passed with distinction in Practicals and first class in Theory, and learnt for 3 months in the Maharajah Govt. College of Music & Dance, Vizianagaram as a private student after 1 year of which I have appeared for the Diploma-examination and, again surprisingly, passed this also 1959. Then, having listened to the radio programmes of the Violin Maestro Shri M.S.Gopalakrishnan, I came under his influence and started practicing his style of music but not his finger-techniques as I have not seen him play in person. In 1960 I happened to see his finger-techniques in one of his concerts and started practicing them very heavily and regularly. In 1961 I have appeared for an interview and successfully got the appointment as Lecturer-in-Violin in the Govt. College of Music Dance, Hyderabad. Till then, all my teachers taught me what they know but they did not tap my talents out or teach me what I need. From 1964 to 65 when I have worked in the Govt. College of Music & Dance, Vijayawada came under the influence of the music veteran Shri Nedunuri Krishna Murthy who had worked as the Principal. Irrespective of the place or time or his state he has always been used to sing and that only, as a boon, helped me quite a lot to listen to his music, practice and imbibe the true qualities of our Karnataka-music. Almost for the first 12 or 15 years of my service I was teaching my students what I know by which mostly impotent students are produced. Later on, only by introspection and self-analisation of my teaching-methods I could improve my teaching abilities gradually by which production of potent students has been started. Thus I retired from my service in 1996.

To tell the truth, having become retired, from then only the true introspection into the teaching methods, in general, had started and I have many experiments upon many students of Vocal or Violin. In this process I have found very successful results and unlike any other music-teacher on the globe, now, basing upon certain easy and short-cut methods, I am able to tap the talents of any aspirant and made this music-teaching time-bound and result oriented as I have taken this as a passion and mission. But, as this is not a traditional method of teaching and more over they too have to work hard to acquire some special knowledge in this connection, people are unable to work hard or believe or implement them as their main aim is only on earning money. Always the dependent-aspirants only remain with the teacher indefinitely learning from him and paying him the money. As I never charge my students any thing I always try to make them independent in all aspects. The learner of cycling should only be made cycling and the teacher should only catch hold of the cycle not to let him fall down. The learner learns the true balancing of the cycle only when the teacher leaves the cycle and lets the learner learn the balancing on his own. If the teacher himself cycles letting the learner sit behind on the cycle the learner will never learn cycling in his lifetime. The same thing applies to any kind of teaching or learning. I may look meticulous in certain points but I am highly successful in cutting this hard nut of music-teaching.

But, unlike Violin, Mridangam could be learnt even at a later age. amsharma.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1371
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

arasi wrote:pATTiRku nIrAm rasanai--
adillAdu paTTup pOgumAm PATTum...

Appreciation is like water unto a plant--
Without which music will wither...
well put arasi. Alas no one understands this nowadays. People want great musicians but fail to understand that without quality rasikas quality music cannot survive. Nurturing talents is one thing but quality listeners should accrue too.

Garumugam
Posts: 7
Joined: 16 Aug 2008, 00:17

Post by Garumugam »

Thanks a lot Sharma Ji for sparing your time and thoughts over this.

when the cricket legend Sachin plays; I can understand and enjoy! clap!

When the tennis legend Petesampros plays: I can understand and enjoy! clap!

But when I sit in a music concert; I can enjoy! clap!! but I am an illitrate!

It is absolutely like watching Vishwanathan Anand or Garry Kasparov playing chess!!!

Cherrs
G Arumugam
Last edited by Garumugam on 12 Sep 2008, 17:30, edited 1 time in total.

Garumugam
Posts: 7
Joined: 16 Aug 2008, 00:17

Post by Garumugam »

Just a thought
---------------------
There are 3 groups in the audience for any carnatic concert:

1. Carnatic music performers.
2. The Listeners with knowledge(Music teacher, Another performer and anyone with knowledge)
3. Listeners without knowledge.(like me)

If the numbers in 3rd group is decreased!!!! Wow I cant imagine! then every carnatic music cocert will be in a big stadium not in auditorium. But how? it is a billion dollar question??

Bye for now,
G Arumugam
Last edited by Garumugam on 12 Sep 2008, 17:38, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

The third group you speak of is really part of the second! If you are there, it means you like to be there where there is music--which makes you a rasikA. rasikAs come at different levels. Knowledge helps. Yet, as listening to music becomes a habit, your knowledge grows too-- you don't have to go about it in the way of preparing for an examination!
Being a rasikA is a pleasure. All it means is that you 'enjoy' music. As in an exam where you need to know your subject well in order to answer the questions set in the paper, you don't need to know all the rAgAs that are sung, to know the janya and janaka rAgAs and the intricacies of tALAs.
If there were restrictions about letting in a lay rasikA into the concert hall, I would not have attended so many concerts in my life!
The only criterion is that you are able to enjoy the music. If there are musical snobs in your circle of friends, avoid sitting next to them!
Last edited by arasi on 12 Sep 2008, 20:21, edited 1 time in total.

ragam-talam
Posts: 1896
Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15

Post by ragam-talam »

Rarumugam:

Watch this video (a favorite of mine), and hopefully it will give you a more positive perspective: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/benj ... ssion.html

As Benjamin Zander says, there's no-one who is musically illiterate!

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

ragam-talam,
Super stuff! It says it all! Thanks!

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, garumudam, Becoming ready to learn music entirely differs with listening to music. In learning music there is a responsible involvement of both the teacher and student and in listening to music there will not be any responsibility of either the listener or singer. Anybody of them can do as he likes in a music concert. In teaching, I feel, that while the teacher’s responsibility is more than 85% the student’s responsibility is less than 15%. Unless the teacher feels that kind of responsibility he cannot shape a student in a proper manner. Particularly in our Classical Karnataka music the depth of knowledge is much deeper in which the responsibility of the teacher makes him always vigilant upon his student not to let him commit even a single mistake which ultimately leads to his disaster. In fact, who cannot successfully render the 127th and 131st exercises of my ‘AMS Easy Methods-2007’ both in the medium and slow tempi is not at all fit to be a teacher or a performer. In general, always and everywhere the ‘in-efficients’ want every kind of exceptions or amendments or reservations to safe-guard their ‘in-efficiencies’. Thus, unless the ‘brilliants’ work hard to maintain the standards mostly the ‘in-efficients’ who are far more in number always contribute their might only to deteriorate the standards in the society. That’s why one must be very careful in selecting his teacher irrespective of his own age.
I feel, a person, though illiterate, enjoys music well than in watching a chess-match.
amsharma.

sagars
Posts: 112
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 19:14

Post by sagars »

Hello Every body. Very interesting topic. Since I statrted learning music when touching 50, I would like to share my experiece. All the posts are quiet encouraging. I have been learning CM in key board from 2001. My classes got often disturbed due to frequent transfers. I got the inspiration from a grandson of my sister aged 7/8 years playing th e key board. Started learning in Hyd then shifted to Bangalore Chennai and now in Delhi. Though I had no problems in finding a CM teacher in Hyd and Bangalore it took sometime to find a carnatic teacher for key board in chennai,as I heard the usual stuff, Oh keyboard no ghamakas, mottai swarams etc.,. Though I finaaly managed get into Sashikiran's Carnatica and found a teacher there. But In delhi I have to depend on Internet teaching.

But the most importanat thing as pointed out by others is the practice and not the age. Every teacher says that you need to practice atleast 3/4 hours daily. After atttending to office work if you can practice 4/5 hours per week it is great. so the the progress is bound to be slow. Further with the age not on your side you definetley take longer to grasp thing than the youngsters. Wherever I attended the classes I had the privelage of being the oldest student, sometimes older than the teacher himself.
Furhter one discouraging aspect is that when you fail to practice and donot play lessons taught in previous classes correctly not withstanding your age the teachers clearly show their faces/disappointment and you get upset. In such cases the teacher in Banglore mercilessly used to ask me to practice the previous lessons in the class instead of going forward. When you return home the people at home can easily makeout from your face that you had a bad classs and start teasing you. If your sense of humour is high you enjoy all these!!!!.

Apart from all these the positive side is that if you have an interest in CM by systematically learning CM you get a solid base and enjoy any music better. In my 7 years of learning I have learnt to play apart from basics about 9 varnams and about 25 keerthanas apart from few thukkadas. But when I have free tiem I play my favourite songs and it is a good way of unwinding the pressure.

I am also eager to increase my level to make a stage performance one day. I will never give up learning and God willing and encouraging words from fellow rasikas, one day I will reach that height, though I know that the kind of practice it requires I will be able to do that only after retirement.

My regret to this day is that in spite of learning for 7 years I am yet to acquire swaragnana. I think more of practice would help the cause.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Sagars,
Nice to hear from you. Individual experiences add more weight than generalities in a discussion.
Good luck and fun in your learning!

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

But when I have free tiem I play my favourite songs and it is a good way of unwinding the pressure.
That is one of the biggest and main motivations for learning.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, sagars, As once told by the Violin Maestro Shri M.S.Gopalakrishnan himself 'knowledgeable practice' only helps you more at any age and stage than routine practice. amsharma.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, sagars, Even with a long experience if I tell some facts about the teaching and learning music people are ready to mistake me that I always try to tell some thing or other only to discourage people. But, irrespective of their views, I, as an elderly person, feel it as my duty to bring out the facts and do the same always.
In the last paragraph of your post you yourself wrote that in spite of learning for 7 years you have yet to acquire Svarajnana. There lies the importance of Manodharma Sangita than simply playing a number of Varnas or Keerthanas. There are thousands of music(magic)-teachers readily available everywhere on the globe who go on teaching as many Varnas or Keerthanas as they can but cannot give the knowledge to play Svarakalpana or Ragalapana just like a cook who goes on cooking anything you want to eat but never teach you how to cook something. The ability to sing or play either Svarakalpana or Ragalapana should always be taught through the vigilant and proper teaching of Varnas and Keerthanas only. Even at the end of learning 9 Varnas and 25 Keerthanas if you are unable to play Svarakalpana, leave alone Ragalapana, does this not obviously prove the defective plan of teaching music? Even though the same thing has been happening since many years all over the globe people are not ready to realize but put the blemish upon the truth-speaking people like me. Unless the aspirants and the parents realize and demand for the time-bound and resulted oriented teaching of music from these music(magic)-teachers nobody can put an end to their treacherous activity. amsharma

Garumugam
Posts: 7
Joined: 16 Aug 2008, 00:17

Post by Garumugam »

Hi ALL,

Excellent contributions from each one in expressing their view. My sincere and special tons of thanks for sparing your time on the same.
Wishing Vinayrahul many many happy returns of the day and good luck.

Best regards
G Arumugam

rbharath
Posts: 2326
Joined: 05 Feb 2010, 10:50

Post by rbharath »

correct me if i am wrong.
i distinctly remember my guru, making a comment that "Age is never an issue to learn music as long as you have the drive." She often says that Patnam Subramaniya Iyer started formal music lessons only in his late 30s and i dont think we have any standing to comment on him and his compositions.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, rb bharath, Not being an elderly music-teacher, you are not at all wrong my dear. There may be some exceptional relaxation in respect of a very few highly talented candidates only, that too vocalists as there will never be any involvement of finger-techniques or investment of nervous strain in it. As far as the singing is in Shruti and Laya is also reasonable Vocal is the easiest to learn. If the limbs are fair enough and the rhythmical sense is also high enough, learning the rhythmical instruments is still easier than vocal. Learning the harmonium-play is the easiest one among all as there is no scope of playing off-shruti unless the player commits a mistake. Among the learning of instrumental-music wind and stringed instruments are more difficult. Even among the stringed instruments learning the Violin and Sarangi is more difficult than any other instrument as they always have to dance to others music as accompanists.
While learning music both the processes of learning and practicing of music of more than 75% must become over even before 15 yrs. of age just like learning of Vedas and ‘abacus’ even before 12 years of age.. Then only the aspirant can make a mark in the field. Just like some gents who are ready to marry even at the age of 90 years everybody is highly interested in learning music irrespective of his age. More over, adding fule to the fire, no music(magic)-teacher ever refuses to teach any aspirant irrespective of his/her instinctive talents of Shruti and Laya lest he looses his earning. Teaching a number of preliminary exercises or Gitas or Svarajatis or Varnas or Kritis etc., etc., to the aspirants and making them participate in some music competitions or radio programmes or TV programmes is far easier than teaching Svarakalpana or Ragalapana. That is why almost all the music(magic)-teachers are mostly interested in teaching quantitative items only than qualitative items. Not only age counts while getting into Svarakalpana or Ragalapana of Manodharma-sangita but also all these music(magic)-teachers, being unaware of any easy methods in teaching Svarakalpana and Ragalapana, always think that Manodharma-sangita must only be acquired by the aspirants themselves but not be taught. They will never teach their aspirants even in which way they can learn the required composition on their own. Still many of the music(magic)-teachers bluntly refuse to give notation to their students leave alone any pre-recorded music along with the same notatioin. That is the pity.
Of course, if there is any evidence of any pre-recorded music of any candidate like in respect of Sharabhanandana-tala of Shyama Shastry we can make a comment or otherwise. amsharma

sagars
Posts: 112
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 19:14

Post by sagars »

Thanks Arasiji,Vasanthakokilamji and Sharmaji for all the encouraging words.
Sorry for the delay in the response which is due to a tight schedule in the office.

I think we should thank G Arumugam for initiating this topics, which has resulted in valuable inputs to learners.

Now one thing is clear. Only practice can make you perfect and the tools suggested by Sharmaji will only speedup the process.

Sharmaji I had talked in you in May/June 2004 when I was posted to Hyd. You were to go to Bangalore. However after 15 days I was suddenly shifted to Chennai. Otherwise I would have been lucky to be your student now for 4 years.

As mentioned Rbharath I think if you have drive and the time you can achieve things.

VinayRahul is the example for success through dedicated hard work. All the best to him.

Shrmaji Can I have your email id pl.


Thanks and

regards.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, sagars, My email ID is ‘msakella2002@yahoo.co.in’ and my ID is ‘msakella2002’ either on Yahoo Messenger or Skype to talk to me. If possible I prefer to speak either on Yahoo Messenger or Skype than chatting. In general, I shall remain online around 8 am or pm on all days to be accessible to any aspirant. amsharma

siva_vilangudi
Posts: 4
Joined: 02 Jul 2011, 10:09

Re: Learn Violin or Mridangam at around 40 yrs of age?

Post by siva_vilangudi »

I am Vilangudi V.Sivakumar Mridagam Artiste and i run an instute for art of learning Percussion in the name style "guruguhalaya. Conducting Mridangam classes directly and via internet. Age is not critera.But should have interest to learn. I prefer Mridangam instead violin. It is not bacause i am Mrigangam artiste i am telling violin is not easy learn and complete with in 5 to 6 years but it for in mridangam. For any thing you should have time to practice daily.For reference pl visit www.guruguhalaya.weebly.com

siva_vilangudi
Posts: 4
Joined: 02 Jul 2011, 10:09

Re: Learn Violin or Mridangam at around 40 yrs of age?

Post by siva_vilangudi »

I am Vilangudi V.Sivakumar Mridagam Artiste and i run an institute for art of learning Percussion in the name style "guruguhalaya. Conducting Mridangam classes directly and via internet. Age is not criteria.But should have interest to learn. I prefer Mridangam instead violin. It is not bacause i am Mrigangam artiste i am telling violin is not easy to learn and complete within 5 to 6 years but it for in mridangam. For any thing you should have time to practice daily.For reference pl visit http://www.guruguhalaya.weebly.com

srinivasanmail
Posts: 8
Joined: 06 Aug 2011, 19:18

Re: Learn Violin or Mridangam at around 40 yrs of age?

Post by srinivasanmail »

I an a new comer to this site. I just saw someone raising a question on learning violin or mridhangam after 40 yrs age.

I am a Mridhangam player living in Los Angeles area and have been teaching mridhangam for the past 25 years. One of my students is 40+
and has grasped the subject very well and also plays well.

Teaching the art to 40+ must involve careful methods of communication. For children you can be real pushy. But for adults a little bit of psychology is needed.

Examples of 40+ learning

In the 1970s the mridhangam maestro Palghat Mani Iyer had a desciple Sri Nerur Vishvanatha Sharma (40+) from the Nerur village in Namkkal Taluk in Salem District. In Fact PMI has taught many above 40

In recent years, Umayalpuram Sivaraman taught a person 70+ at the Chennai Music Academy School

Thank you!

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