Learning Telugu
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Hi,
There seem to be a good number of people who know Telugu participating in this forum. This question is directed at them. I am a Tamilian and I want to learn enough Telugu to understand the compositions written in Telugu. I don't want to go through a comprehensive language course, but something quick and dirty that will do the job. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
K. Kumar.
There seem to be a good number of people who know Telugu participating in this forum. This question is directed at them. I am a Tamilian and I want to learn enough Telugu to understand the compositions written in Telugu. I don't want to go through a comprehensive language course, but something quick and dirty that will do the job. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
K. Kumar.
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Watching telugu movies, TV channels -Quick and dirty way :cheesy:
Though Im not sure if it will help understanding kritis.
I studied telugu until 10th - In general I can can understand the kritis, but for certain words I need telugu pandits.
Ravi,
It is an inherent trait of my Mom's generation to replace Pand B, T and D sounds.
My mom would call my friend Badmaja for a long time, until one day she got it right. But still I liked the way she said it....
Though Im not sure if it will help understanding kritis.
I studied telugu until 10th - In general I can can understand the kritis, but for certain words I need telugu pandits.
Ravi,
It is an inherent trait of my Mom's generation to replace Pand B, T and D sounds.
My mom would call my friend Badmaja for a long time, until one day she got it right. But still I liked the way she said it....
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Suji,
I have said this many times, but this habit of switching the p and b sounds and d and t sounds were resposnible for the creation of the first (Indian) Batman amongst my friends: born in Pondicherry, when his parents went to register his name, they said 'batmanAbhan', and the French clerk wrote it down verbatim/phonetically as 'Batmanabhane' (they added an e at the end to many names)....and, being (very cruel) children, we used to call him 'batman' much to his and his parents' annoyance.
This issue is not a problem just for your parents' generation - it is still a problem for may tamizh speakers who use the tamizh script to write lyrics. The examples I posted above are from listening to certain contemporary artists featured on MIO. Another that comes to mind is an example of mutilating the meaning of a name with one such substitution: the phrase in question is 'aditiyin maindA pOtri' - but having been mutilated, it is (in the final recorded version for the world to hear) 'atithiyin maindA pOtri' - so, instead of praying to the son of aditi (the mother of the Gods), the singer is asking us to pray to the son of our guest!!!
Maybe there is a hidden meaning here (after all we are supposed to be experts in atithi sanskAr) that equates a guest to God....
Ravi
I have said this many times, but this habit of switching the p and b sounds and d and t sounds were resposnible for the creation of the first (Indian) Batman amongst my friends: born in Pondicherry, when his parents went to register his name, they said 'batmanAbhan', and the French clerk wrote it down verbatim/phonetically as 'Batmanabhane' (they added an e at the end to many names)....and, being (very cruel) children, we used to call him 'batman' much to his and his parents' annoyance.
This issue is not a problem just for your parents' generation - it is still a problem for may tamizh speakers who use the tamizh script to write lyrics. The examples I posted above are from listening to certain contemporary artists featured on MIO. Another that comes to mind is an example of mutilating the meaning of a name with one such substitution: the phrase in question is 'aditiyin maindA pOtri' - but having been mutilated, it is (in the final recorded version for the world to hear) 'atithiyin maindA pOtri' - so, instead of praying to the son of aditi (the mother of the Gods), the singer is asking us to pray to the son of our guest!!!
Maybe there is a hidden meaning here (after all we are supposed to be experts in atithi sanskAr) that equates a guest to God....
Ravi
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Here it is. Perhaps the naTTuvanAr was singing it for the dancer. hehe
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thsc ... 14/&prd=fr&
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thsc ... 14/&prd=fr&
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My dad used to say this when I was a little girl:
"es E voy 'say'-innu sollaRa sollukku, adu sollaRa sollukku sollaRa sollu". May be you have to say it aloud a few times before you get it.
Now take sollu. My preference is to say shol or chol, dependent on the context (or while singing a song). Solla (as in soda) is something I don't savor, especially in a song.
There is also usage, exposure to mass media and other elements which cause these problems...
Here is an amusing one.
The mother was repeatedly calling her daughter when she was with her friends, lost in play. 'E BUTmiNI! vA inge!' How did they enroll her in school? As buTmiNi or Padmini??
"es E voy 'say'-innu sollaRa sollukku, adu sollaRa sollukku sollaRa sollu". May be you have to say it aloud a few times before you get it.
Now take sollu. My preference is to say shol or chol, dependent on the context (or while singing a song). Solla (as in soda) is something I don't savor, especially in a song.
There is also usage, exposure to mass media and other elements which cause these problems...
Here is an amusing one.
The mother was repeatedly calling her daughter when she was with her friends, lost in play. 'E BUTmiNI! vA inge!' How did they enroll her in school? As buTmiNi or Padmini??
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Ravi, I think there are rules alright, but they apply only to native tamil words.Suji,I always wonder how they don't get confused when to use T and D while reading tamizh.
The problem is that there is no reason/rule for this, and hence the issue with wrong/inappropriate pronunciation....
Ravi
For eg. take "P" vs "B". "paTTam", "pAmbu", etc.. I think you can't lead the word off
with the "B" sound. So the first symbol always stands the "Pa" sound. Similarly
in the word "pAmbu" the symbol has to mean only the "Bu" not "Pu" as it follows the "im".
So as long as one works with native tamil words, the symbol can denote only one sound,
depending on the context. These kind of contextual rules are what keep the tamil script
compact. Hence for example, why the first indian language typewriter was in tamil.
Someone with more knowledge than me (of Tamil in general and works like
tolkAppiyam, etc) can explain this in more detail.
I guess problems start happening when you start representing non-tamil words
in the tamil script. And then of course representing aspirated sounds is out of
the question. A further problem is the governement mandated rules that take out
the grantham symols for sounds like "sha", "ha" etc.
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Yes the rules are clear for tamizh words., although it can lead o ludicrous results when applied to borrowed words(even the commonly used ones).
In the beginning of the word, only the khara(unaspirate) sounds(ka, ca, Ta, ta, pa) can occur. Never the aspirates. But when the same letter occurs in the middle or end of a word alone(not as part of conjunct), it should be pronounced as an aspirate(ga, sa, Da, da, ba). Note here that ca is not pronounced as ja but as sa in middle. And when a letter occurs as a conjunt(as kk, cc, TT etc), the sound will always be unaspirated i.e as kk and never as gg.(similarly for others).
The behaviour of c interesting here as j is not represented. This could point towards the original sound which was likely sa and not ca and hnce this seemingly odd behaviour. Of course this may not be the case.
In the beginning of a word, c can and often is pronounced as sa or Sa.
T, N, r, l, zh, L, R and Rannagaram(the last n of the alphabet) do not occur in the beginning of tamizh words. This is not allowed. R in compound(RR) is pronounced as TR
In the beginning of the word, only the khara(unaspirate) sounds(ka, ca, Ta, ta, pa) can occur. Never the aspirates. But when the same letter occurs in the middle or end of a word alone(not as part of conjunct), it should be pronounced as an aspirate(ga, sa, Da, da, ba). Note here that ca is not pronounced as ja but as sa in middle. And when a letter occurs as a conjunt(as kk, cc, TT etc), the sound will always be unaspirated i.e as kk and never as gg.(similarly for others).
The behaviour of c interesting here as j is not represented. This could point towards the original sound which was likely sa and not ca and hnce this seemingly odd behaviour. Of course this may not be the case.
In the beginning of a word, c can and often is pronounced as sa or Sa.
T, N, r, l, zh, L, R and Rannagaram(the last n of the alphabet) do not occur in the beginning of tamizh words. This is not allowed. R in compound(RR) is pronounced as TR
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Some difficulties occur because of these rules pAvam for both sin and emotion(bhAva). sabittal for both cursing and repeated prayer(japa) kAnti and Gandhi(Mahatma Gandhi) are both kAndi.
I have a tamizh translation(in verse) of D.V.Gundappa's "mankutimmana kagga". Of course it reads "mangutimmana kakka" by "Ti.Vi. kuNDappa". kannaDigas will appreciate the joke. (the tamizh name for this book is mangutimmanin pidaTralgaL)
DISCLAIMER: No requests for translation will be entertained.
I have a tamizh translation(in verse) of D.V.Gundappa's "mankutimmana kagga". Of course it reads "mangutimmana kakka" by "Ti.Vi. kuNDappa". kannaDigas will appreciate the joke. (the tamizh name for this book is mangutimmanin pidaTralgaL)
DISCLAIMER: No requests for translation will be entertained.
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I hope we didn't scare KKumar 29 away.
Coming back to learning telugu..
There is no easy way. Regular usage and a dedication to learn over time (say one year) will help. There are n number of web sites you can learn-google.
As I said earlier movies/songs with subtitles will help.
I used to watch german news and movies during my stay in Deutshland without any subtitles and over time I could follow German pretty well.
Just keep in mind to get B P and T D correct
Coming back to learning telugu..
There is no easy way. Regular usage and a dedication to learn over time (say one year) will help. There are n number of web sites you can learn-google.
As I said earlier movies/songs with subtitles will help.
I used to watch german news and movies during my stay in Deutshland without any subtitles and over time I could follow German pretty well.
Just keep in mind to get B P and T D correct
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LOL..Just keep in mind to get B P and T D correct
Here is something from my experience, as someone who is in a similar situation to Kumar. In the short term, since the objective is to follow CM krithis in Telugu, what I found useful is to follow the word for word translation posted here at the Sahitya forum and build a vocabulary. There are several words that are repeated quite a bit and they can act as a bridge. Comparing and mapping it to close Tamil words help in remembering them. Some knowledge of sanskrit words in common and religious usage help as well.
Suji, I am with you on your comment about being dedicated in this endeavor and keeping this in constant usage help a lot. It is amazing how just that "strong intention" to learn and keeping that intention in the forefront of one's consciousness in itself makes you encouner opportunities to fulfil that goal. It is not that dissimilar from when your car headlights are out, you tend to noitce many cars on the road without headlights.
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Now "Enduku beddala" in areview in the Friday section of The Hindu(Today's Chennai edition).
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/07/28/stor ... 610600.htm
It could easily have been "enduku bettala", apt starting line for a kRti(maNipravALa?) on kalki avatAra.
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/07/28/stor ... 610600.htm
It could easily have been "enduku bettala", apt starting line for a kRti(maNipravALa?) on kalki avatAra.
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Funniest of all is, I heard a recording of Smt M.S Subbulakshmi's AIR recording where the announcer says Enna Gamana suka raani- ---Ragam-Thyagaraja. I thought it was a rare krithi of thyagraja in a language other than telugu/sanskrit. I was totally shocked when I heard M.S singing Ennaga manasuku raani in neelambari....
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O yes Kiran. Loads of such howlers on AIR
One guy announced "kRpa jUcukudu" faltering over each syllable.(It was kRpa jUjuaTku)
One of the worst ones that gets to my nerves is kirubAgaran for kRpAkaran. And kiruba means "hyena" in kannaDa :cheesy:
And hear this one by a hindi announcer. When announcing the name of an award-wining kannaDa movie "Banker mArgayya" (In those days of regional movies on sunday afternoons on DD), you could see the woman sweating as she started "bainkar", a prominent pause, clearing of throat and "mar gayA" hohoho. Had my sides stitched although it was rreverent to laugh at someones death
ANd to clarify "enduku bettala"- "bettale" means "naked" kannaDa. So "Why naked" will be apt for kalki(And Buddha in some depictions).
One guy announced "kRpa jUcukudu" faltering over each syllable.(It was kRpa jUjuaTku)
One of the worst ones that gets to my nerves is kirubAgaran for kRpAkaran. And kiruba means "hyena" in kannaDa :cheesy:
And hear this one by a hindi announcer. When announcing the name of an award-wining kannaDa movie "Banker mArgayya" (In those days of regional movies on sunday afternoons on DD), you could see the woman sweating as she started "bainkar", a prominent pause, clearing of throat and "mar gayA" hohoho. Had my sides stitched although it was rreverent to laugh at someones death
ANd to clarify "enduku bettala"- "bettale" means "naked" kannaDa. So "Why naked" will be apt for kalki(And Buddha in some depictions).
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Hi guys,
Thanks a lot for the wonderful discussions on tamilians pronouncing words in other languages. I grew up in Delhi and am very much aware of the tamilian going to the shop and mentioning "devuna devu devatta po". I tried following the route suggested by VK but it appeared that it will take a long time to collect all the words. I was just wondering whether there was any shorter and easier way to learn enough Telugu so I don't have to go looking for my notebook everytime I hear a Telugu composition. As for watching Telugu serials, if they are anything like what I have seen in Tamil and Hindi serials, no thanks.
Do you know whether there is a Telugu dictionary type thing where the Telugu words are in English and the corresponding meanings listed as in a phrase book. That might be useful. Any way I will keep plugging on while you guys can provide more funny anecdotes on Tamilians and their language adaptation skills.
K. Kumar.
Thanks a lot for the wonderful discussions on tamilians pronouncing words in other languages. I grew up in Delhi and am very much aware of the tamilian going to the shop and mentioning "devuna devu devatta po". I tried following the route suggested by VK but it appeared that it will take a long time to collect all the words. I was just wondering whether there was any shorter and easier way to learn enough Telugu so I don't have to go looking for my notebook everytime I hear a Telugu composition. As for watching Telugu serials, if they are anything like what I have seen in Tamil and Hindi serials, no thanks.
Do you know whether there is a Telugu dictionary type thing where the Telugu words are in English and the corresponding meanings listed as in a phrase book. That might be useful. Any way I will keep plugging on while you guys can provide more funny anecdotes on Tamilians and their language adaptation skills.
K. Kumar.
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Kumar try these
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/brown/
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/gwynn/
More Telugu dictionaries on this page
http://www.multilingualbooks.com/online ... elugu.html
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/brown/
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/gwynn/
More Telugu dictionaries on this page
http://www.multilingualbooks.com/online ... elugu.html
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kkumar29 wrote:
The one area we did not cover was telugu speakers attempting tamizh...now, these are not as hilarious as some of the others posted, but are dead give-aways: P. Susheela navigated the tamizh movie playback singing industry with grace and aplomb for too many years to count...but even she, in the song 'unakku maTTum unakku rahasiyam solvEn' - goes 'rehasiyam solvEn'...
S. Varalakshmi 'senkari jaganmAtA' for 'Sankari jaganmAtA' etc...
North Indian announcers always had so much difficulty with SI names, it was pathetic to hear - I have thought of asking the AIR/DD to mandate these announcers to write names in dEvnAgrI to help pronounciation: rAman always became ramaN, and daNDapANI was always pronounced to rhyme with cold water (daNDA pAnI) to name just a few gaffes....
suji ram wrote:
Ravi
Hey! We took equal opportunity digs at people of linguistic backgrounds other than just tamizh....That being said, while many of the gaffes that Tamilians make can be explained on the basis of the script they use, I can never, for the life of me understand why with a completely sanskritized script, malayALam speakers have issues with ch and j, p and b etc....or D for T...DRS had posted a brilliant one before about how this resulted in changing the word for time to the word for husband....Any way I will keep plugging on while you guys can provide more funny anecdotes on Tamilians and their language adaptation skills
The one area we did not cover was telugu speakers attempting tamizh...now, these are not as hilarious as some of the others posted, but are dead give-aways: P. Susheela navigated the tamizh movie playback singing industry with grace and aplomb for too many years to count...but even she, in the song 'unakku maTTum unakku rahasiyam solvEn' - goes 'rehasiyam solvEn'...
S. Varalakshmi 'senkari jaganmAtA' for 'Sankari jaganmAtA' etc...
North Indian announcers always had so much difficulty with SI names, it was pathetic to hear - I have thought of asking the AIR/DD to mandate these announcers to write names in dEvnAgrI to help pronounciation: rAman always became ramaN, and daNDapANI was always pronounced to rhyme with cold water (daNDA pAnI) to name just a few gaffes....
suji ram wrote:
Yikes!However to hear Tamizh in your TV is another matter.
Ravi
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You know this is very typical of malayalis as well- savin revi for ravi. Sengari(with that softened Sa)- Recall that song from the fine movie "His Highness abduLLa"- "nAdarUbiNi SengarI pAhimAm- ati madhradara". In fact the replacement of "a" with "e" in the intial position is universal with them- agappeTTu, deydeydey for tay tay tay(as in dance tA tay, dittay) LOL.The one area we did not cover was telugu speakers attempting tamizh...now, these are not as hilarious as some of the others posted, but are dead give-aways: P. Susheela navigated the tamizh movie playback singing industry with grace and aplomb for too many years to count...but even she, in the song 'unakku maTTum unakku rahasiyam solvEn' - goes 'rehasiyam solvEn'...
S. Varalakshmi 'senkari jaganmAtA' for 'Sankari jaganmAtA' etc...
I think the problem with t, d and T,D etc despite the adequate script is a legacy of the status tamizh enjoyed in the days of yore in Kerala and perhaps to their language being more tamizh in antiquity. Just like in tamizh, the native Malayalam words are written with unaspirates and pronounced as aspirates- ega paTam in writing but paDam in speech - paThikkuga in writing bur paDikkuga in speech etc.
Not to forget their "OfIsu, kOfi". Another quaint feature is the absence of the sound "t"(vyanjana/consonant). Even when written as "t", it ia ALWAYS pronounced as "l". In fact pAl(milk) is written as pAt in Malayalam! SO you have their ulsavam, valsala, SrIvalsan, polkuDam(For poRkuDam). This is clear even in their singing of sanskrit/other language kRtis or reciting of mantras. Listen to Omana kutty singing "SaraNAgata dIba valsalE" (sarasIruhAsanapriye- nATa).
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/p4b ... As1NMvHdW/
In fact in the Sanskrit movie Of G.V.Iyer (Adi SankarAcArya), the gAYatrI mantra is repeatedly recited thus-
tal savitul varENyam | bhargO dEvasya dhImahi | dhiyO yOnaH pracOfayAl ||
EEKS ! Horrible.
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O go ahead if you have something. It will be fun. I think it is hard to pick as there are no prominet things. There is always that vowel-endings to English. This is not so prominet in today's speech as it was a few decades ago.We have spared the kannada speakers attempt at other languages
what is ittu? What are you speakingu?
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Oh man, what an entertaining thread this turned out to be.. :cheesy:
BTW, Ravi, the 'Yikes' is for watching Tamil programs on TV in NA or to the Tamil soap operas? Just curious. It is an interesting experience to all of a sudden run into tamil TV while one is switching channels... On the soap operas... yeah.. I can not stand all that 'azhugai all the time'.. I have got enough problems on my own..
BTW, Ravi, the 'Yikes' is for watching Tamil programs on TV in NA or to the Tamil soap operas? Just curious. It is an interesting experience to all of a sudden run into tamil TV while one is switching channels... On the soap operas... yeah.. I can not stand all that 'azhugai all the time'.. I have got enough problems on my own..
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Simble or combligated, as DRS puts it, it is quaint to hear the special accents of the regions. I love our andhra singers sing 'shri shenkara guruvaram'. It IS quaint. So also Bhanumathi's skipping merrily over tamizh lyrics. Their speciality? Trilling of the Rs. RREpu, kaRREpAku.
The 'jolo koshto' (water scarcity) in Bengali, in one of Ray's films (Distant Thunder) impressed me.
Kannadigas? They are good peepul (people) only, however bad the guvurnement happens to be.
Tamizhs? That hilarious buTmiNi (padmini) which I have mentioned elsewhere. Of course, in malayalam, Padmini's sister was LeLida...
The 'jolo koshto' (water scarcity) in Bengali, in one of Ray's films (Distant Thunder) impressed me.
Kannadigas? They are good peepul (people) only, however bad the guvurnement happens to be.
Tamizhs? That hilarious buTmiNi (padmini) which I have mentioned elsewhere. Of course, in malayalam, Padmini's sister was LeLida...
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Kiran'enghaDa nATTuhaaru kathaikkarathai viTTUppuTTIhalE'
That was a jocular statement of Tamil spoken by the Sri Lankan Tamils. They have a very distinct and different way of speaking Tamil and their accents are different too! Interestingly they speak pure Taml unmixed with english!
That sentence will translate to
'e^NgaL nATTukkaaarar pEshukirathai viTTuviTTIrkaLE'
(you have left out the speech of my country folks)
As much as sankEti evolved distinctly from Tamil (?kannada) the Sri Lankan Tamil evolved independantly and has a linguistic standing on its own and it is quite old too!
By the by Tenali was a popular movie in which Kamalahasan speaks the Sri Lankan Tamil delightfully!
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Even though it has distinct characteristics, Srilankan Tamizh is very much intelligible to other tamizhs and is clearly recognisable as a tamizh dialect. But this is not the case with sankEti. This could well be due to the longer period of separation(a millenium) with complete severing of ties with the original homeland and the continuing contact with kannaDa. But interestingly, there are some similarities between sankEti and Srilankan tamizh dialect- oNDu reNDu mUNDu in srilankan and oNDu, reNDu, mUDu in sankEti. This is possibly because both groups migrated from an original homeland in sounth tamilnadu(tirunelveli and surrounding areas) although at different time periods.As much as sankEti evolved distinctly from Tamil (?kannada) the Sri Lankan Tamil evolved independantly and has a linguistic standing on its own and it is quite old too!
By the by Tenali was a popular movie in which Kamalahasan speaks the Sri Lankan Tamil delightfully!
But there are of course telling differences.
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I think so too. Even today, some of the Tamil usages in southern tamil nadu is sort of similar to the Sri Lankan tamil usage.This is possibly because both groups migrated from an original homeland in sounth tamilnadu(tirunelveli and surrounding areas) although at different time periods
One of the humorous usages from a Sri Lankan tamil friend was: A few people were watching TV and laughing at something. This friend came in and asked casually 'enna kandu kaliththu kondu irukkireerhal?' ( the dry translation is ' what are you watching and enjoying' but that does not capture the humorous way it comes across to Tamil Nadu Tamils )