Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

To teach and learn Indian classical music
Post Reply
ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK , wait wait. There is a good one already. I have sent a mail to you. After deliberating on it we can discuss it here. It is excellent notation system where you can have 90 % accuracy.

VK I have sent a mail to you from this forum, pls reply to that. I will send you a few samples and then we will think about posting here.I will also send it to Ranganayaki, and Srinath.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

I promise you I will also share my version of the alapana. Actually I was waiting for gm and vk to try something first.

But I need a day as things have turned really hectic at work and I am itching for the Sunday (When you are woken up in that morning and yelled at for not submitting that document you promised to get ready past midnight because you dozed off, you can understand :o ) . That very short post of mine was actually typed off my smartphone (I had meant it to ask gm and vk to try their hand at it actually) and I would have to get back to my PC with a real keyboard and a video player and a 3G connection at least before I can do anything or give my usually elaborate posts. I understand that without 93% of the rest of non-verbal communication that is impossible across forums AND the absence of context, it may have felt like that. But I hope I've clarified my position now.

@Ranganayaki, I very much liked the commentary at the end of each phrase, you explain your methodology and some of the details in the phrases. I have in fact translated the 1st 15 seconds already at the beginning in a previous post, even though I did not post it in the form you did. Pinky swear I will :mrgreen:

Also I do not think gm criticized your approach as crude at all. Rather I think he meant he preferred what he felt was a "cruder" form of notation where EVERY note is included, but at the cost of making the phrase awkward to sing in swaras. As far as I understood you did not want that.

That R,PM, R,,,(S) where the RSRS issue cropped up or that p,RS, R,,, where the R2 was played almost like (SMRM R,,), I probably would not write down EVERY note because that makes the phrase awkward for me to sing. Instead I might add a note as to how that phrase was played, but I also will write it only as p,RS,R,,, only. Again we violinists need to pay attention to these fine details as it is necessary for us to be sure of what we are playing before we actually do (and in a concert there's almost no time for that). So if we interpret a phrase in another manner, we will put it up and say, "I may notate like this because this works for me".

I'll get back after today. I have a document to submit, and by asap I mean yesterday!

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

[quote="SrinathK]



Again we violinists need to pay attention to these fine details as it is necessary for us to be sure of what we are playing before we actually do (and in a concert there's almost no time for that). So if we interpret a phrase in another manner, we will put it up and say, "I may notate like this because this works for me".

[/quote]

Srinath , you are right here. This is what I wanted to convey and the reason to explain that swara works different for different people. Recently I had been to visit my friend in Lucknow and during a family get-together, there was a girl singing ( well trained and clear notes) and I was automatically thrusted with a vio to play along. Having not touched the vio for many months it was hard for me for sometime getting the strings to tune as it was a not my vio, and the rest of the 20 min just to follow what she sang.

A couple of days later, someone asked me what the raaga was and I on jogging my memory hard I had no idea nor even on the notes or pattern or notes. All that I could remember was she was singing in 6 kattai ( because I tuned the instrument I remember) , some bhajan with a long viruttam like sloga in the beginning.
This happens to any violinist after a while or a few years. You don't have to be special , it will happen to all ( i mean all). I always think that if I could do something anyone could do . All that you hear is some form of sound that you have to follow.

Now coming back to the swara deciphering , with the way you want us to do we are doing it raaga appreciation and not note appreciation and this is what I mean by a preconceived carnatic year. In that Jantai mpm ,it is note / and writing it as only M and understanding it as madhyamavathi M with a jantai is raaga appreciation. We have to make clear on this before we proceed. I guess VK and even the topic meant notes as they are. I am open to both , wothout any FRUSTRATION , IRRITATION .
PROUDLY, COOL AS A CUCUMBER. You can also say sorana ketta... :). VK , hope that is not a bad word in your dictionary :)

To meet both the conditions - raaga appreciation and note knowledge , I think the notation system I refer could come handy. Pls respond to my mails.

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1760
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Thanks, Srinath, look forward to your swaras, take your time.

May be there was something not fully clear with "crude", but it hardly matters now.. I never lost sight of the fact that GM was friendly and didn't mean to be rude. Never thought that for a second.

I've removed that long explanatory post.

I think he meant he preferred what he felt was a "cruder" form of notation where EVERY note is included, but at the cost of making the phrase awkward to sing in swaras. As far as I understood you did not want that!
Oh it's not about what I want, I just don't agree with that in this case. It's just that don't want a critique of what I wrote to be made by that yardstick, because I am not taking that approach and I specified that. I wanted it to be GM's own swaras, with the approach stated. That way it is 2 different versions and we can just disagree and both versions can stand.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

In art and music, it takes some time to get used to the fact that it is not 100% objective and never will -- there is a subjective component of perception that is entirely real and is as much a co-creater of the total musical experience as the composer and the artist -- as opposed to objective physical phenomena that are experienced as the same by everybody. :ugeek:

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

SrinathK wrote:In art and music, it takes some time to get used to the fact that it is not 100% objective and never will -- there is a subjective component of perception that is entirely real and is as much a co-creater of the total musical experience as the composer and the artist -- as opposed to objective physical phenomena that are experienced as the same by everybody. :ugeek:
LOLOLOLOL

That has two interpretations. 1. Laughing out loud 2. Laughing out loud ( Louder and hope nobody notices by ignorance..louder , louder. )

I do the second most of the times.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Here's my transcription then, 1st 1:00 of the video

0:03-0:09 : R , , , , S - R,PM R , S , , -- that R,PM is more like R,MPM,
0:09-0:16 : S, (M) RS , n, p - p, RS - MMR , , -- There's a jharu on the opening S. Swaras in the brackets should not be pronounced while singing as they are incidental. But it shows that anuswaram was hit

0:16-0:19 : R, R, SRS - (n)p , ,
0:19-0:22 : (p)R,, S (n)p , ,
0:22-0:25 : (p)R, S R, - n S R, (M) RS - n p , ,
0:25-0:30 : p (n) npm,, p, n, S, R, S, R,PM R, S, (a vigorous double oscillation of the R in R,PM)

0:30-0:36 : R, M, M, - MPPM R S n, - R R P M R, S
0:36-0:41 : R, P, MPMR, M, P, , , -- (The R-P is a slide so interpretation may differ here. M P M R is played like MPMP MR)
0:41-0:46 : P, M R, S (n)p, n, S R M PNP,M R S (there is a big kampita on that n in p, n, S R M)
0:46-0:49 : R P M P M R , , - (Slide between R and P, truncated M1)
0:49-0:52 : P M P, MP M R - (R) S ,
0:52-0:56 : P M P , , R - R M PNPN PM R - S , (Long slide between P, , R)
0:56-1:02 : R P MPMR, M P - P (N) NPM, P, N(S) N, (n)P , (the manner of glancing at the upper S in N(S) here is called chyuta shadjamam. Oscillation on the N followed by slide to P in that last "N, (n)P ," )

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Thanks Srinath , but did you get my mail?

and you too VK ?!

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

<shakes head> What mail? :shock:

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I did not get your email either

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

@vk, I've got an idea after gm's suggestion. I split one raga or swara essays into small parts mp3s, put them in a rar file and use that for practice material. For consistency, it is essentially that one rar is in only one raga and comes from one recording. Though this will never match the productivity of a home practice session or a music class (where you can get so many phrases out in half an hour), it's worth a shot.

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1760
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote:Here's my transcription then, 1st 1:00 of the video

0:03-0:09 : R , , , , S - R,PM R , S , , -- that R,PM is more like R,MPM,
0:09-0:16 : S, (M) RS , n, p - p, RS - MMR , , -- There's a jharu on the opening S. Swaras in the brackets should not be pronounced while singing as they are incidental. But it shows that anuswaram was hit

0:16-0:19 : R, R, SRS - (n)p , ,
0:19-0:22 : (p)R,, S (n)p , ,
0:22-0:25 : (p)R, S R, - n S R, (M) RS - n p , ,
0:25-0:30 : p (n) npm,, p, n, S, R, S, R,PM R, S, (a vigorous double oscillation of the R in R,PM)

0:30-0:36 : R, M, M, - MPPM R S n, - R R P M R, S
0:36-0:41 : R, P, MPMR, M, P, , , -- (The R-P is a slide so interpretation may differ here. M P M R is played like MPMP MR)
0:41-0:46 : P, M R, S (n)p, n, S R M PNP,M R S (there is a big kampita on that n in p, n, S R M)
0:46-0:49 : R P M P M R , , - (Slide between R and P, truncated M1)
0:49-0:52 : P M P, MP M R - (R) S ,
0:52-0:56 : P M P , , R - R M PNPN PM R - S , (Long slide between P, , R)
0:56-1:02 : R P MPMR, M P - P (N) NPM, P, N(S) N, (n)P , (the manner of glancing at the upper S in N(S) here is called chyuta shadjamam. Oscillation on the N followed by slide to P in that last "N, (n)P ," )
Your transcription is much more detailed than mine and it's really good. I find you consistently going a little higher than me - in the sense that where I tend to think -for example- that it is RM-R, with a janta- like oscillation on the ma, you say it is rmpmr as does GM and that difference is consistent through out.

One problem that I found in my listening in the case of this video, is that once I make out a phrase it stuck in my head and I always imagined the second phrase at 07-09 to be a continuous one making it impossible to accept a pa in there.. Whereas in fact there is a clear break between the ri and the ma, making the P possible, and now I hear it, so fleetingly that it is still doubtful, and I'm 65:35 on the chances of that being correct - in your favor. So it seems you both have a finer ear.. I miss some anuswarams.

One piece of criticism: though it is much more readable than before, your transcription seems to give equal value to swaras and anuswaras. For example, at 16-19 seconds, I would have preferred R, R, SrS - (n)p , , I would find that easier to read. It also retains the difference between this type of small lettering and the bracketed small letters.

Thanks for the effort, if I think of anything I will write back.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

No problem @VK and @ Srinath, pls shoot a mail to ranganaaath followed by the our famous google email service or the microsoft starting with h in a hot manner. ( sometimes I think I am too smart against the spammers :) ). may be I should have given some hint for my id also like the hero in srirangangam ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

On the violin, an swaram must be hit by a finger to be heard, no flexing the strings like a veena, so what I term as anuswaram is in brackets. I am watching not only the sound but also the finger technique so I can also see if a note was hit or not. Also lower case letters on this editor for me mean the notes in the lower octave below S, hence a fleeting note is not quite the same as a true anuswaram on a violin.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Srinath, Ranganayaki and Vk

I have sent a mail to each of you with dropbox links. Let me know if the link and download works.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

They do. Thank you very much. This was precisely hitting the nail on the head @gm. Actually I wanted to talk about it here too, but I didn't want to find us all running away from this thread and never coming back within the next couple of posts. Sincere request to the other 2 also not to mention it out here.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Another question to Ranganayaki and Srinath. Just imagine you hum a song , non CM for instance.. say some bhajan where you wont always have your raga preconception, and in that case do you normally keep automatically deciphering raaga or sing note cautions while executing the song or do you just sing and feel that it automatically matches the tune. Well this is complicated, but I would like to know how your humming along or singing aloe level varies when you progress in music . How does it actually affect one.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I know you did not ask me that question but my first reaction is 'What! really. you just repeat without getting into raga or swara territory. That is the best thing about vocal at the amateur level, you do not have to know all that'. But then I realized you are asking for a good reason. Now I am also curious. As you learn vocal, do you really break it down to the swara level and then build it to the melody level in reproducing a melody that you just heard. If so, I am ready to have my mind blown. ( the question is not whether you can, I am sure you can but do you? ) I will wait for your answers.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Yes, VK, you sometime quickly get ensconced to a safe zone i.e., this is not of my level . So spared you. But would like you to try too. But all I do not understand is why do you take your flute everytime to decipher. It is not something you check note by note and click and proceed like a pitch pipe alignment. If you are trying to hit the right note at least it means you understand the range and the area , then it means you know the note sort of and then mind triggers your finger to fill the hole. So the message goes from the head to flute and not from flute to head.

Well it was a time when singing was something out of my horizon. I still remember the time early nineties when I tried to sing with my ..thandhana thathana sippi irukkudhu with my friend and record it in casette player recording. It seemed ok when I sang as it is kind of a talk and sing song. But when we heard from the record it was a whole house LOL to an amount of earthquake intensity. All I could understand was I did not go up and down , I did not understand that they were the notes. I thought you have to go a little up and down correctly and that was all. But then I always tried. Then once I asked Sanjay how should I proceed. He told me that I should try to sing whatever I play on violin before my teacher at least for half an hour daily. It did not make sense then , but makes more than the best sense now. And I did too. Well the progress and transformation in voice was , when I sing a third party song i.e film song I sing more loudly and what I realize is that your voice tends to auto adjust the notes somewhat since they are the only place your acquinted to. By place I mean frequency. And yes instead of kakali you may touch kaisiki ( and feel something slightly wrong as it did not go with the melody and try to adjust it next time to see if it fits. But the thing is you may hit kaisiki instead of kakali but but not shudha dhaivatha. But our brain reflex is so effective in this. If you had ever played table tennis you can understand that it is a fraciton of second your mind automatically tells you whethen to spin or chop or hit flat and where and the time intervel is too small for a cognitive reason but it is just reflex out of many years. Oh how much I miss Tennis and TT.

But if you ask me if I sing note by note right , definitely no . It almost gets 80 t0 90 percent perfect if you just sing off the cuff and the 10 to 20 percent is for you to make adjustment to simulate the original .That kakali kasiki like realtime confusion where you feel the melody is missing. But I don't think that anyone can sing and keep deciphering in real time. It just happens. I still remember Sanjay saying that in his whole class he was the only one unable to sing ninaithe inikkum songs at that time when the songs were super hit. This simply means you have no time to bring in your raaga and grammar but let loose your instinct and inhibition. If you want to be hundred percent perfect you have to listen to it many times like memorizing kirthis. But what helps you remember the tune is lyrics. And what makes you to make it close to original is the timing set between each note. But for any reason if i feel that a song is set in some raaga then I have a problem as it obstructs my free flow and grammar creeps in.

The one that I enjoyed again and again was Ananda raagam set in simhendramadhyamam.
Last edited by ganesh_mourthy on 07 Aug 2015, 23:39, edited 2 times in total.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Hi VK , many of these super singers can repeat a song to near perfection in terms of tonal clarity and note, but without knowing the notes. That is innate. Let your flute rest for a while. I did give rest to my fiddle for sometime to explore into this "innate".

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

btw, I was not thinking of my flute in this context. ( in fact my goal is not to think about swaras even when playing my flute..but that is the end state )

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

vasanthakokilam wrote:btw, I was not thinking of my flute in this context. ( in fact my goal is not to think about swaras even when playing my flute..but that is the end state )

VK

It is not a big deal . It may be harder to to repeat a GNB , but to follow a song is not a big deal . If we were to shape up this context in person I could definitely get you there in 6 months without much effort as it is has to be lively. Here we are moving an inch per month that is all. :D . You can try do download a song and play it half of its speed first in vlc player where it is possible. Then you will see you can . Though it kills the charm it definitely helps to get there quickly.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Another question to Ranganayaki and Srinath. Just imagine you hum a song , non CM for instance.. say some bhajan where you wont always have your raga preconception, and in that case do you normally keep automatically deciphering raaga or sing note cautions while executing the song or do you just sing and feel that it automatically matches the tune. Well this is complicated, but I would like to know how your humming along or singing aloe level varies when you progress in music . How does it actually affect one.
In the beginning when I was learning I was only seeing the swaras I had learnt regardless of the phrases and playing more swaras -- even a krithi I could not see as a sahitya. When I played I was only remembering the swaras I was playing. This eventually worked against me in a vocal music class where my teacher said, "Sree, you're singing all R2s in every raga the same way. There's no difference between your KalyaaNi G3 and your Shankarabharanam G3." -- followed by a crash course in varnams and the finer raga specific prayogas.

I realized then she was absolutely spot on -- the problem went back to the time where my voice had broken and I was learning the violin at the time, with academic workload and not knowing how to handle an unruly pair of vocal cords, I had stopped singing. My vocal classes formally never went to the point where I learnt varnams vocally. Although I did do a measure of vocal in my violin classes, it wasn't that deep or very focused.

Unfortunately my course with her did not last very long as she succumbed to cancer shortly afterwards :cry: But that's when I felt that only instrumental training had left me with a drawback in the finer understanding of the phrases (even my violin teacher at one point had suggested a vocal teacher, but at that point I simply did not have any time to spare). It is sufficient to say that SrinathK never forgets an experience like that...

It stayed in my mind for a while and I realized my listening habits were too casual and I ought to have been more analytical and observant of the devils in the details. Over time as my ability to read gamaka movements improved and improved (and it came phrase after phrase, raga after raga, recording after recording and it still improves every day), it became easy to directly mimic the dynamic swarasthana of the gamaka itself, except in superfast or very complicated phrases where I had to slow down and listen to the finer movements. I changed my approach to listening, seperating my "listening for pleasure" from "listening as a student". The raga gnyana I gained from listen to alapanas came back to help me in compositions.

Now a days I rarely need to translate -- I can get the phrase immediately. In singing I can do it directly and the swaras are just "memory waypoints". A lesser heard raga can be a problem Someone like Ahbishek or TVS or TNS, GNB or even Brinda Mukta can sometimes test my grasp beyond my limits for which I must listen more seriously. Since I am out of touch with my instrument, I do need to translate a little bit to give me a hint as to how to play the phrase and if anything I think I should once again cultivate the skill of turning phrases into swaras more easily (but now it's for other purposes).

What keeps you going through this all is that you can very visibly measure your progress and see your improvement day after day.

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1760
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Such wonderful, thoughtful posts, Srinath.. I really enjoy reading you.

I let the song sink in, by listening several times. Then the tune just comes out of me naturally.. but it always helps to know ragas, and that gives me conviction and my faith in myself is stronger. For difficult passages, or minute sangati variations in carnatic music, I resort to swaras

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Srinath and Ranganayaki and "kosish karnevale - VK"

Well the problem is here the swaram or note per se. There used to be a time when I cannot decipher a note correctly but can be approximate of it. But then occassionally some ragaas strike a instant similarity of " I have heard before" like Reethigowla and Kaapi. So when there is a non karnatic song that has Reethi gowla or kaapi I immediately take the Raaga pattern as crutch and try to decipher with my "approximate note skill". Strictly speaking itis not note deciphering but finding notes alone but taking the help of raaga for assistance.

That is why I prefer non raaga or non carnatic based light song initially.

VK try this one. Indeed it is raaga based but may not be strictly.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c44Ah24hr9M

How silly I forgot to give the link. But here it is above. Just 2 lines is enough and the initial aalap.

First 2 lines

Tora man dharpan kehlaye

Bale Bure saare karmon ko dheken aur dhikaayen.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I did not know what 'kosish karnevale' meant (that is how close to zero my Hindi is ) and given GM's shtick is always to use an extra phrase or two than strictly needed :) which is always quite endearing, I figured it is probably not a serious one so it is OK if I do not understand it, but I still went to Google translate.

It said something like (कोशिश करनेवाले - By Trying ), I assume you meant 'Go give it a try'

OK, I will.
---

BTW, talking of your shtick, ;) I am not really sure if you are reading between the lines a bit more or I am sending the wrong info through my words, so to be sure I do not go to my flute to aid in this swaragyana exercise the way you seem to think I do. I do go to my fluteoften because that is a fun thing to do.

But the reason for lack of progress is that I am not devoting enough and consistent time on the procedure you have outlined. You have diagnosed that part correctly!!

On a related topic, It is interesting to hear what Sanjay advised you, namely sing while playing the violin. In fact, that is what I do with flute to get my voice swarasthanas right. Again, there are other ways to do that but it is more fun this way for me. There is a way to vocalize while playing the flute, so I can hear my voice as well the sound the flute makes. It is not the most pleasant thing for someone else to hear. Once I get my voice calibrated that way, I then remove the flute, sing a sequence and then play the flute to make sure they are close enough. That is a lot of fun.

But in the pure form of what you suggest, I do that while I am driving.

Anyway, you wrote that you will reveal the second set of steps. Please do!

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

To the SRG trio ( see I am into GM's Shtick now ; ), I have two examples of having great difficulty in trying to hum a melody I hear. Bhajans are one thing, complicated sangathis are another thing but somewhere in the middle are film songs that look easy at one part and quite difficult the next second. The two examples are

a) kallellAm mANikka kallagumA.. 90% is easy but that last extension on 'A...' is hard to get it right. I think it is probably better that someone has learnt vocal to get those kinds of things absolutely right. You may think what is the big deal there but when you get a chance ask someone who has not learnt singing to sing that line. I am curious if it is just me.

b) Recently, I had a chance to hear 'vArAi nI vArAi..' ( I was looking for the right set of songs to welcome my friend and family to U.S.A. They are planning a visit. And one of the songs I picked was this one ). It is so simple to sing in some sections but quite difficult in many of those 'AkAram' sections. I thought to myself 'what a great song. may be I should spend some effort to sing this song well'.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK,

Karnevaale is like " aanewaale raelgaadi"=the train that is about to come( You still hear that throughout India in the railway stations even today often among all the other noises :), aanewaale janam din= birthday that is about to come.

To that same effect = Koshis Karnevaale VK = VK who is about to practice and try ( wishful :) ).
So that is not imperative , dont you worry. But I am not leaving you. :). My nudges are more powerful than a stick.

It is always good to practice a filmi song where you will not lean on raaga grammar to decipher. I remember even in Madhyamavati R told that " considering it is Madhyamavati , I would rather take it this way" . Often the grammar takes over. Even to one of my teachers , he did not feel that CM lacked that shruti because he felt note is that area rather than spot. But to a filmy music it is never that area but the most precise spot , so it is even corrected later using technology.

That Man dharpan is more darbari kaanada. so now you can try. :)

The most important thing , I will give a set of lessons again , but once some milestones acheived down the road :) we will meet in skype, perhaps after a couple of months.

On your previous post and troubles I will write what I feel in the evening.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

http://carnatic2000.tripod.com/

vk , have you seen the above one. This can be the best one for practicing notes and even if you are going to do a focussed training for 10 min per day in this , it will be of tremendous help. In fact the exercise then is to open the gayaka, set speed to 18 in 3 speed, now set a mela with the scroller , so you dont know which raaga your are setting ( keep your eyes closed) and find out the notes. Then you can mute the sound and turn on and find out too so you would not always have the start point to help. very challenging but if you can do this you can find out any notes anywhere.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

And when you talk about the Kallellam Maanikka , are you mentioning that LR eswari's as the hard part?

Besides, I hope if I ever come to your house by then you will have your vaarai perfect with all the sangathis and I can take the credit.

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1760
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

GM, my question too, though I think VK may be talking about /TMS's aaaa at the end of the Kallellam Manikka Kallaaguma line, not sure either.

Either way, VK, I suppose you know the raga and the tonic and yet it doesn't help? Or have you not thought about the raga at all?

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

R

Do you always get that raaga when you listen to filmy music. Many a times this beats me.

I get to hear a similarity only in non gamakas raagas with a unique pattern. Bageshri comes to my mind immediately.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I think VK may be talking about /TMS's aaaa at the end of the Kallellam Manikka Kallaaguma line
Yes.

I brought in that song to illustrate the point GM was making. Point being, as I understood it, it is possible to repeat a melody with voice up to a point innately (without thinking about ragas or swaras ) and to go beyond that level, requires a bit more concentration and skill. I thought you and Srinath stated similar things with some variations.

Btw, it is possible I am interpreting GM's point to death here and even got it wrong. I am not even exactly sure why he brought that up but that did not stop me from offering up examples from my own experience. ;) You all tell me if those examples are illustrative of that point or not.

Ask a few people who have never learnt vocal music ( non music students ) to sing that line. My hypothesis is even those who get it more or less close up to that point will struggle with that AkAram. I think I am making a fairly obvious point here. We will see.

The vArAi song has so many such 'Aakarams' with twists and turns and the degree of difficulty is much higher.
I suppose you know the raga and the tonic and yet it doesn't help? Or have you not thought about the raga at all?
I can probably spend some time figuring the swaras out and try to sing it and get it right. I grant that because it is a fairly small extension. But the point you were all making was a general one. The innate singing ability of those who did not learn to sing only takes them so far even in the lighter genres. ( there are of course some grand exceptions )

Later on, I thought about another point GM wrote: 'The lyrics helps in singing.' Assuming that is true, are the Akara passages more difficult because they are not overlaid on top of lyrics?

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

There are five type of vocal type

1. They never get even tinkle , tinkle right. It is sheer fear. They should see a doctor. Someone has told them singing is carried in genes like type 2 diabetes. So until they have a "placebo" like DNA tweek they will not get it right .

2. Can sing to some extent but would not have their voice louder , and prefers the lyrical part as the lyrics help them to remember the tune and they go with it. Most non learners are this. They would not try the akaaram part or even sangathis . They prefer will do it simpler.

3. Has formerly trained voice with good note control but takes that note help to sing , need more focus, every song has a katanavariky touch even it is " Chinna chinna aasai"

4. Not trained , but practices like hell tries to repeat every sangathis and gets a good akaaram too. ( Many of the Airtel singers). But this group is partly innate and the rest comes with a hell of practice.

5. Listens to notes , takes a few breath , repeats it to astonishing precision , embellishes it , modulates it , does not matter if it carnatic sangathi or beautiful light sangathis, lower of higher register, leaves everyone baffling all in couple of hours. This is definitely practice and super innate talent. Left both Karaikudi and Bismillah khan baffling. Admits " Naan music ellaam padikkala, appadiye chumma paadi paadi ". Ok it is SJ.

I have witnessed two of her rec and was astonished. Read the below.
http://solvanam.com/?p=24387

So your Akaaram part is not a big deal for the 4th singers. Some tweaking needed and some practice. So dont worry you will soon find that auto tweak. Not a big deal . But , do you keep your volume high while singing. You may have to sing - up.

And go through that practice exercise app link .

GM

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

I think after almost 2 decades I am listening to vaarai . It is fairly a straight forward song for the the above 4th group.

Where they all terribly slipped I have noticed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox0gJGCasZc
the above at 1.45 and 2.38 places. Here they cannot take help of lyrics.

And the below prelude..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox0gJGCasZcHere I have seen many even trained fail and all they sing is not notes and dont produce music. Even sometimes carnatic judges. Probably here comes the innate and training.

And also the below prelude

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox0gJGCasZc

You can produce it perfect note by note and still it can be "crude"

PS: When I come please agree you will sing the below and I don't want vaarai. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poe7y4AEBwU

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I am singing 'vArAi' silently as a gesture to ask you all 3 to come and visit but I am not singing that or Kuhu Kuhu or anything else for that matter. :) We will leave that to Ranganayaki.
There is a good band: vocal, two violins and a flute.

Yeah, that Hamsanandi/Sohini song is loaded with such stuff. I very much thought of that song as I was writing about AkAram.

Btw, we have not seen anything from you yet, how about some vocal rendering of these 'straight forward' pieces :)
Which type you belong to?

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

btw, the first three links of your post #237 are the same ( the Hey Ram song). is that what you intended?

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Oh sorry , the second should have been this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwHkGj2KkFA

And the third should have been this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSICeyfMSO0

With the above two there was one auditioning I remember which I just happend to see in some vijay tv where sowmya and all were judges. The problem was many were able to decipher the notes and when they sang it was like some dhattu or alankaram. This is where the innate musicality of the person comes. And I tell you that piece is very very difficult for a carnatic singer too. They will do it very differently. That FLUIDITY AND MELODY is hard to get.

You are asking me where I stand? hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I remember I used to be too naive those days , still am ;), I asked Sanjay ( that over phone), "can you please tell me which are the good rendition of yours for me to listen to . I am developing an interest for very good carnatic songs". And he was Rolling out Laughing for the next few sec and said that no one has asked him such an embarrassing question of segregating good and bad of his. All that he told me was then.."recording are usually more simpler and live more technical". The word "technical" was bugging me then as it was used only in more engineering , but good I did not ask him. I know why he was really appreciative of my keenness to learn formally. Probably he feared I was going to ask him to explain between "Note and Pitch".
Likewise with where do I stand, I am embarassed too.

I can pull of a decent one without much brihas. I try to repeat subtle notes which I am starting to pay attention to these days. I try to hum and develop it. All these are not done seriously though. Evenign shower happens always to be the best time and place , especially evening showers and considering the total hours of bath-time in the past decade well my voice has decently mellowed. And I can always vouch that only the bathrooms have the best acoustics in the world even better than opera halls. Vaarai I will do it.

All that I say is I repeat and I do not go note by note. Don't go by notes, it does not work like that. Use it only for checking when you feel you are doing it wrongly at some point.

If it is a carnatic song I never try to sing until I have a reliable notation with me.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

And you did not tell me about the that gaayaki exercises. Pl go through that. It is excellent.

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1760
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote: There is a good band: vocal, two violins and a flute.
I know of only one of us who is experienced in another band: The Musicians of Bremen.. You don't want them to sing :)

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1760
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Ranganayaki wrote:
vasanthakokilam wrote: There is a good band: vocal, two violins and a flute.
I know of only one of us who is experienced in another band: The Musicians of Bremen.. You don't want them to sing :)
But.. I couldn't help trying to learn the vaarai song, it was challenging, and couldn't be passed up.. I did have to resort to notes for the twists and turns. It's Abheri.. and the other song VK mentioned is in Mmg.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

ganesh_mourthy wrote:http://carnatic2000.tripod.com/

vk , have you seen the above one. This can be the best one for practicing notes and even if you are going to do a focussed training for 10 min per day in this , it will be of tremendous help. In fact the exercise then is to open the gayaka, set speed to 18 in 3 speed, now set a mela with the scroller , so you dont know which raaga your are setting ( keep your eyes closed) and find out the notes. Then you can mute the sound and turn on and find out too so you would not always have the start point to help. very challenging but if you can do this you can find out any notes anywhere.


I have it running now. I normally use a mac but this one does not seem to be available for a Mac. I have dusted off a Windows laptop and downloaded the program and played with it a bit. It is pretty good with a lot of features

I will have to spend a bit more time with it to get familiar with the buttons and settings of the app.
In the mean time can you clarify your procedure please.
1)Where are the settings to set the 'speed to 18 in 3 speed'.
2) And you want me to play one of the lessons like sarali alankaram or geetham?

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

@vk, I wonder if you can find a teacher around the area who can give you a little more personal attention. Of course subject to how much time and energy can be spared. In just a couple of classes one could have covered everything we have discussed so far.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Srinath, no teacher is going to go this intensive on technical aspects as far as I know and they simply even get dismissal.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

At least it should facilitate some practice. I sing, you play. You sing, I play. We discuss. We can do much more with one live concentrated session. Being a geek is hard isn't it? :ugeek:

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Do you think you will find a carnatic musician all enthusiastic about that concentrated session. You have to find a geeky CM teacher :) . Perhaps in the west belt where VK lives :).
VK I guessed it with your active input time. :)

Post Reply