Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

[ganesh_mourthy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c44Ah24hr9M

How silly I forgot to give the link. But here it is above. Just 2 lines is enough and the initial aalap.

First 2 lines

Tora man dharpan kehlaye

Bale Bure saare karmon ko dheken aur dhikaayen.

[vasanthakokilam]

I did not know what 'kosish karnevale' meant (that is how close to zero my Hindi is ) and given GM's shtick is always to use an extra phrase or two than strictly needed which is always quite endearing, I figured it is probably not a serious one so it is OK if I do not understand it, but I still went to Google translate.

It said something like (कोशिश करनेवाले - By Trying ), I assume you meant 'Go give it a try'

OK, I will.
---

BTW, talking of your shtick, I am not really sure if you are reading between the lines a bit more or I am sending the wrong info through my words, so to be sure I do not go to my flute to aid in this swaragyana exercise the way you seem to think I do. I do go to my fluteoften because that is a fun thing to do.

But the reason for lack of progress is that I am not devoting enough and consistent time on the procedure you have outlined. You have diagnosed that part correctly!!

On a related topic, It is interesting to hear what Sanjay advised you, namely sing while playing the violin. In fact, that is what I do with flute to get my voice swarasthanas right. Again, there are other ways to do that but it is more fun this way for me. There is a way to vocalize while playing the flute, so I can hear my voice as well the sound the flute makes. It is not the most pleasant thing for someone else to hear. Once I get my voice calibrated that way, I then remove the flute, sing a sequence and then play the flute to make sure they are close enough. That is a lot of fun.

But in the pure form of what you suggest, I do that while I am driving.

Anyway, you wrote that you will reveal the second set of steps. Please do!

[vasanthakokilam]

To the SRG trio ( see I am into GM's Shtick now ; ), I have two examples of having great difficulty in trying to hum a melody I hear. Bhajans are one thing, complicated sangathis are another thing but somewhere in the middle are film songs that look easy at one part and quite difficult the next second. The two examples are

a) kallellAm mANikka kallagumA.. 90% is easy but that last extension on 'A...' is hard to get it right. I think it is probably better that someone has learnt vocal to get those kinds of things absolutely right. You may think what is the big deal there but when you get a chance ask someone who has not learnt singing to sing that line. I am curious if it is just me.

b) Recently, I had a chance to hear 'vArAi nI vArAi..' ( I was looking for the right set of songs to welcome my friend and family to U.S.A. They are planning a visit. And one of the songs I picked was this one ). It is so simple to sing in some sections but quite difficult in many of those 'AkAram' sections. I thought to myself 'what a great song. may be I should spend some effort to sing this song well'.

[ganesh_mourthy]

VK,

Karnevaale is like " aanewaale raelgaadi"=the train that is about to come( You still hear that throughout India in the railway stations even today often among all the other noises , aanewaale janam din= birthday that is about to come.

To that same effect = Koshis Karnevaale VK = VK who is about to practice and try ( wishful ).
So that is not imperative , dont you worry. But I am not leaving you. . My nudges are more powerful than a stick.

It is always good to practice a filmi song where you will not lean on raaga grammar to decipher. I remember even in Madhyamavati R told that " considering it is Madhyamavati , I would rather take it this way" . Often the grammar takes over. Even to one of my teachers , he did not feel that CM lacked that shruti because he felt note is that area rather than spot. But to a filmy music it is never that area but the most precise spot , so it is even corrected later using technology.

That Man dharpan is more darbari kaanada. so now you can try.

The most important thing , I will give a set of lessons again , but once some milestones acheived down the road we will meet in skype, perhaps after a couple of months.

On your previous post and troubles I will write what I feel in the evening.

[ganesh_mourthy]

http://carnatic2000.tripod.com/

vk , have you seen the above one. This can be the best one for practicing notes and even if you are going to do a focussed training for 10 min per day in this , it will be of tremendous help. In fact the exercise then is to open the gayaka, set speed to 18 in 3 speed, now set a mela with the scroller , so you dont know which raaga your are setting ( keep your eyes closed) and find out the notes. Then you can mute the sound and turn on and find out too so you would not always have the start point to help. very challenging but if you can do this you can find out any notes anywhere.

[ganesh_mourthy]

And when you talk about the Kallellam Maanikka , are you mentioning that LR eswari's as the hard part?

Besides, I hope if I ever come to your house by then you will have your vaarai perfect with all the sangathis and I can take the credit.

[Ranganayaki]

GM, my question too, though I think VK may be talking about /TMS's aaaa at the end of the Kallellam Manikka Kallaaguma line, not sure either.

Either way, VK, I suppose you know the raga and the tonic and yet it doesn't help? Or have you not thought about the raga at all?

[ganesh_mourthy]

R

Do you always get that raaga when you listen to filmy music. Many a times this beats me.

I get to hear a similarity only in non gamakas raagas with a unique pattern. Bageshri comes to my mind immediately.

[vasanthakokilam]

I think VK may be talking about /TMS's aaaa at the end of the Kallellam Manikka Kallaaguma line

Yes.

I brought in that song to illustrate the point GM was making. Point being, as I understood it, it is possible to repeat a melody with voice up to a point innately (without thinking about ragas or swaras ) and to go beyond that level, requires a bit more concentration and skill. I thought you and Srinath stated similar things with some variations.

Btw, it is possible I am interpreting GM's point to death here and even got it wrong. I am not even exactly sure why he brought that up but that did not stop me from offering up examples from my own experience. You all tell me if those examples are illustrative of that point or not.

Ask a few people who have never learnt vocal music ( non music students ) to sing that line. My hypothesis is even those who get it more or less close up to that point will struggle with that AkAram. I think I am making a fairly obvious point here. We will see.

The vArAi song has so many such 'Aakarams' with twists and turns and the degree of difficulty is much higher.

I suppose you know the raga and the tonic and yet it doesn't help? Or have you not thought about the raga at all?

I can probably spend some time figuring the swaras out and try to sing it and get it right. I grant that because it is a fairly small extension. But the point you were all making was a general one. The innate singing ability of those who did not learn to sing only takes them so far even in the lighter genres. ( there are of course some grand exceptions )

Later on, I thought about another point GM wrote: 'The lyrics helps in singing.' Assuming that is true, are the Akara passages more difficult because they are not overlaid on top of lyrics?

[ganesh_mourthy]

There are five type of vocal type

1. They never get even tinkle , tinkle right. It is sheer fear. They should see a doctor. Someone has told them singing is carried in genes like type 2 diabetes. So until they have a "placebo" like DNA tweek they will not get it right .

2. Can sing to some extent but would not have their voice louder , and prefers the lyrical part as the lyrics help them to remember the tune and they go with it. Most non learners are this. They would not try the akaaram part or even sangathis . They prefer will do it simpler.

3. Has formerly trained voice with good note control but takes that note help to sing , need more focus, every song has a katanavariky touch even it is " Chinna chinna aasai"

4. Not trained , but practices like hell tries to repeat every sangathis and gets a good akaaram too. ( Many of the Airtel singers). But this group is partly innate and the rest comes with a hell of practice.

5. Listens to notes , takes a few breath , repeats it to astonishing precision , embellishes it , modulates it , does not matter if it carnatic sangathi or beautiful light sangathis, lower of higher register, leaves everyone baffling all in couple of hours. This is definitely practice and super innate talent. Left both Karaikudi and Bismillah khan baffling. Admits " Naan music ellaam padikkala, appadiye chumma paadi paadi ". Ok it is SJ.

I have witnessed two of her rec and was astonished. Read the below.
http://solvanam.com/?p=24387

So your Akaaram part is not a big deal for the 4th singers. Some tweaking needed and some practice. So dont worry you will soon find that auto tweak. Not a big deal . But , do you keep your volume high while singing. You may have to sing - up.

And go through that practice exercise app link .

GM

[ganesh_mourthy]

VK

I think after almost 2 decades I am listening to vaarai . It is fairly a straight forward song for the the above 4th group.

Where they all terribly slipped I have noticed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox0gJGCasZc
the above at 1.45 and 2.38 places. Here they cannot take help of lyrics.

And the below prelude..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox0gJGCasZcHere I have seen many even trained fail and all they sing is not notes and dont produce music. Even sometimes carnatic judges. Probably here comes the innate and training.

And also the below prelude

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox0gJGCasZc

You can produce it perfect note by note and still it can be "crude"

PS: When I come please agree you will sing the below and I don't want vaarai.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poe7y4AEBwU

[vasanthakokilam]

I am singing 'vArAi' silently as a gesture to ask you all 3 to come and visit but I am not singing that or Kuhu Kuhu or anything else for that matter. We will leave that to Ranganayaki.
There is a good band: vocal, two violins and a flute.

Yeah, that Hamsanandi/Sohini song is loaded with such stuff. I very much thought of that song as I was writing about AkAram.

Btw, we have not seen anything from you yet, how about some vocal rendering of these 'straight forward' pieces
Which type you belong to?

[vasanthakokilam]

btw, the first three links of your post #237 are the same ( the Hey Ram song). is that what you intended?

[ganesh_mourthy]

Oh sorry , the second should have been this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwHkGj2KkFA

And the third should have been this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSICeyfMSO0

With the above two there was one auditioning I remember which I just happend to see in some vijay tv where sowmya and all were judges. The problem was many were able to decipher the notes and when they sang it was like some dhattu or alankaram. This is where the innate musicality of the person comes. And I tell you that piece is very very difficult for a carnatic singer too. They will do it very differently. That FLUIDITY AND MELODY is hard to get.

You are asking me where I stand? hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I remember I used to be too naive those days , still am , I asked Sanjay ( that over phone), "can you please tell me which are the good rendition of yours for me to listen to . I am developing an interest for very good carnatic songs". And he was Rolling out Laughing for the next few sec and said that no one has asked him such an embarrassing question of segregating good and bad of his. All that he told me was then.."recording are usually more simpler and live more technical". The word "technical" was bugging me then as it was used only in more engineering , but good I did not ask him. I know why he was really appreciative of my keenness to learn formally. Probably he feared I was going to ask him to explain between "Note and Pitch".
Likewise with where do I stand, I am embarassed too.

I can pull of a decent one without much brihas. I try to repeat subtle notes which I am starting to pay attention to these days. I try to hum and develop it. All these are not done seriously though. Evenign shower happens always to be the best time and place , especially evening showers and considering the total hours of bath-time in the past decade well my voice has decently mellowed. And I can always vouch that only the bathrooms have the best acoustics in the world even better than opera halls. Vaarai I will do it.

All that I say is I repeat and I do not go note by note. Don't go by notes, it does not work like that. Use it only for checking when you feel you are doing it wrongly at some point.

If it is a carnatic song I never try to sing until I have a reliable notation with me.

[ganesh_mourthy]

And you did not tell me about the that gaayaki exercises. Pl go through that. It is excellent.

[Ranganayaki]

There is a good band: vocal, two violins and a flute.

I know of only one of us who is experienced in another band: The Musicians of Bremen.. You don't want them to sing

[Ranganayaki]

There is a good band: vocal, two violins and a flute.

I know of only one of us who is experienced in another band: The Musicians of Bremen.. You don't want them to sing

But.. I couldn't help trying to learn the vaarai song, it was challenging, and couldn't be passed up.. I did have to resort to notes for the twists and turns. It's Abheri.. and the other song VK mentioned is in Mmg.

[vasanthakokilam]

http://carnatic2000.tripod.com/

vk , have you seen the above one. This can be the best one for practicing notes and even if you are going to do a focussed training for 10 min per day in this , it will be of tremendous help. In fact the exercise then is to open the gayaka, set speed to 18 in 3 speed, now set a mela with the scroller , so you dont know which raaga your are setting ( keep your eyes closed) and find out the notes. Then you can mute the sound and turn on and find out too so you would not always have the start point to help. very challenging but if you can do this you can find out any notes anywhere.

I have it running now. I normally use a mac but this one does not seem to be available for a Mac. I have dusted off a Windows laptop and downloaded the program and played with it a bit. It is pretty good with a lot of features

I will have to spend a bit more time with it to get familiar with the buttons and settings of the app.
In the mean time can you clarify your procedure please.
1)Where are the settings to set the 'speed to 18 in 3 speed'.
2) And you want me to play one of the lessons like sarali alankaram or geetham?

[SrinathK]

@vk, I wonder if you can find a teacher around the area who can give you a little more personal attention. Of course subject to how much time and energy can be spared. In just a couple of classes one could have covered everything we have discussed so far.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Srinath, no teacher is going to go this intensive on technical aspects as far as I know and they simply even get dismissal.

[SrinathK]

At least it should facilitate some practice. I sing, you play. You sing, I play. We discuss. We can do much more with one live concentrated session. Being a geek is hard isn't it?

[ganesh_mourthy]

Do you think you will find a carnatic musician all enthusiastic about that concentrated session. You have to find a geeky CM teacher . Perhaps in the west belt where VK lives .
VK I guessed it with your active input time.