Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

To teach and learn Indian classical music
ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Thanks VKV , very nice of you for your anecdotes.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

@cacm, LGJ in my book is unique in this ability of grasping and memory power. Again only a violinist gets that exposure to decoding and reproducing phrases of a huge variety of styles. In one article in a tamil magazine, I've read as to how he would take the train to Trichy to go listen to the concerts at the AIR and come back and reproduce entire concerts even. It is to my annoyance though to hear some people claim his manodharma is too researched (they don't know the full truth about how manodharma works). Earlier I also believed that all manodharma was totally spontaneous until I learnt that it was closer to mastering a language than tossing something out from the void.

Now ok, some trial and error later I think I understand what are the expectations here. So, #1) No brighas or overly gamaka heavy passages. #2) You would want phrases not bound to a tala -- so that rules out more complex songs and instrumental kalpanaswaras for now. I'll even rule out madhyamakala passages.

Now one clarification, I may have taken this into ragas and manodharma, but there is a reason for this. The key to mastering swaragynana lies in raga phrases and the ability to decode and reproduce them -- simple raga phrases. You either a)notate phrases or b)reproduce them on the voice or the instrument, first the phrase and then the swaras of that phrase.

I have taken penatonic rakti ragas as they have simple scales, yet they are very expansive and offer huge possibilities for phrases, interconnected notes and gamakas. IMHO these are the best ragas to start learning swaragynana.

My violin teacher notated my krithis at first, then when I started learning Vasudevayani, he told me : "You're going to do this." Being a violinist means you are naturally exposed to this swara-sahitya and swara-phrase connection on every phrase, otherwise you can't play. So it started from there, although I had to at first repeatedly ask for clarifications -- but I realized even in that first class that I could do it. For a while I quit learning as I couldn't juggle JEE and music together. Then there was a day where I observed my sister (cousin) playing a few light numbers on her veena, including our national anthem. Then it struck me that "Hey. I can do this easily now that I can follow those swaras" -- I came back home and played those numbers on the violin with just a little practice. Till then I had never tried to follow a tape and was only playing what I had been taught.

That day was a revelation as I realized I could indeed stand on my legs and notate songs and play them myself just by hearing. No looking back since then. It was my violin training that taught me the connection. All that raga alapana practice was worth it.

The exercise in "notating ragas" is meant to strengthen swara gnyana - otherwise you can post your attempts like @vk does. But it has the side effect of automatically reinforcing raga gnyana too as it will give you indepth info into the raga as well. I ask you to do the exercise because on a forum, how else can we check our efforts? Or the fact that we have even tried at all.... :lol: (I'll trust your word). This will also help some soul in the future in ways we don't anticipate. (I was a regular visitor to rasikas for years and got a lot of ideas when I was at college).

If even LGJ's madhyamavati is too much, then I fear that I will have to ask you all to notate the national anthem :twisted: But for the record, do transcribe that 1st phrase he plays (you have the video of his finger movements to help you) and compare it to GNB's. You'll find they are almost the same.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Just a few quick notes... elaboration if any later

- As with threads in our forum, they evolve. So what we are encountering here is par for the course. If needed, we can split it into three threads: beginner, intermediate and advanced
- While I do not want this thread to be just about me, I see no one else has gotten on the bandwagon. So be it. These threads are here for anyone to latch onto later on as well.
- Speaking for myself, I am intentionally keeping my goals quite minimal.
- Gain the ability to play some of my favorite film songs on my flute with as accurate as possible. The test here is easy to state. Anyone who is listening to this should feel at lease listening to it and that I am playing that song quite accurately. That seems to be quite important to a lot of film music listeners ( personally for me, I want to be in control, play it first as true as possible to the original and then change it to my taste )
- So, the swaragyana itself is a means to the above end. I have talked to professional violinists about what they do when they shadow vocalists. The consensus is there is just no time for Melody they hear in vocal -> Swaras -> reproduce on the violin. It just happens to them. So the vehicle of swaras recedes to the background. Not that I will get to that stage but stating that swaragyana itself is an intermediate stage. May be I will get stuck there, but it is not too bad a place to be stuck in
- More importantly, I want to get some reliability, confidence and consistency in my ability to play the melody I listen to. Today there is way too much unreliability, uncertainty and inconsistency. I realized the extent of my shortcomings att his when I tried to play the "Om Namo Namah - song from the Movie "Main Krishna Hoon" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFG6CsjIk0M ) which we discussed in a different thread. While I eventually got most of the phrases more or less right, there were some seemingly simple ones which I struggled enormously.
- While listening to music, I do not necessarily want to listen to the swaras. Where I am at now as a listener and rasika, I am good without hearing the swaras. In fact I worry that if I start focussing on the swaras I will lose what I have now which is a relationship to ragas directly at the aesthetic level. (Ranganayaki, we will pick up this topic later whether hearing the swaras is detrimental to enjoying the ragas in its totality or not. You have stated that you hear the swaras but I also see no indication from your writing that it endangers your listening and enjoying to the ragas as a whole, so my fears may be misplaced ).

Having said that, I am willing to give a try to anything. That is on the assumption that being submerged in such activities will help in achieving the objective. While slowing down the briga and trying to convert it to swaras may be a bit much to achieve the beginner's goal, it may just make me listen intently. My own self diagnosis of my issues with poor swara knowledge is that I do not listen attentively enough.

On a related matter, a few years back we worked on a fun thread where someone will post a small snippet ( of their own making or a recording ) and others will have to post the swaras for it. I will find the link and post here for reference. Some of you may remember that.
Someone posted a TNK Mohana alapan and asked us to write down the notes. Well, I tried. It was definitely an advanced level exercise and I did not succeed. But it made me listen to certain segments quite attentively and repetitively. I gave up on it but I used that piece as an inspiration to play a mohanam alapana on my flute. I modeled it approximately along those lines, but it is not a replica ( how could I? ). But amazingly, people thought it was pretty good and it sounded like a mohana alapana they have not heard before ;) I declared victory at that point. Let me see if I can find that. There are such extra benefits that accrue with any activity like this.

(even in this thread, I posted a clip of my attempt at 'dil pukare'. While I did not quite follow any methodology and I did not even convert the melody to the swaras, I attribute any small measure of success there to this thread. Being immersed in swara thoughts themselves can produce something interesting subconsciously. At least that is my take on what happened )

cacm
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by cacm »

quote="SrinathK"]@cacm, LGJ in my book is unique in this ability of grasping and memory power.
HE WAS PROBABLY THE BEST ; THE OTHERS WERE SOMEWHAT CONSTRAINED TO THEIR "BHANI", "SCHOOL" etc I THINK. LGJ himself changed NADA LOLUDAI ETC AFTER CONSIDERABLE RESEARCH!

The exercise in "notating ragas" is meant to strengthen swara gnyana - otherwise you can post your attempts like @vk does. But it has the side effect of automatically reinforcing raga gnyana too as it will give you indepth info into the raga as well. I ask you to do the exercise because on a forum, how else can we check our efforts? Or the fact that we have even tried at all.... :lol: (I'll trust your word). This will also help some soul in the future in ways we don't anticipate. (I was a regular visitor to rasikas for years and got a lot of ideas when I was at college)......
I can only state that MMI'S APPROACH- at least according to DR.S.A.K.Durga-MMI'S DISCIPLE AS WELL AS EXPERT MUSICOLOGIST- OPINED that his approach of conceptualzing CERTAIN RAGAS LIKE JAYANTHASENA(Vinatha Suthavahana) was ENORMOUSLY ENHANCED BY THE swarsthanam & swara approach to raga elaboration. Actually she claimed it would be impossible to elaborate without repetition these kinds of ragas. Of course the other school is to expound using tradition, historical development etc which is needed because these ragas have existed for ever, metamorphsised due to folk & other influences.

If even LGJ's madhyamavati is too much, then I fear that I will have to ask you all to notate the national anthem :twisted: But for the record, do transcribe that 1st phrase he plays (you have the video of his finger movements to help you) and compare it to GNB's. You'll find they are almost the same.....I am sure you are well aware that musicians like MDR, Mali & RAMANI DO NOT FOLLOW THEIR OWN COMPOSITIONS EXACTLY! My class mate &
student of MDR&N.R. (for over 20 years) is HUGE EXPERT IN THIS AREA in addition to being a theoretical physicist & Swamiji (PROF. V.Radhakrishnan-Swami Bhuvananada) has actually NOTATED THEIR RENDERINGS VS actually written down notations vs renderings & MDR, N.R. ADMITTED THEY ACTUALLY DO NOT FOLLOW & render variations....T.K.Govindarao's books actually contain notations just taken from CONCERTS by various artists. IN SHORT NOTATING, NOTATIONS & HOW THEY ARE FOLLOWED IN REAL LIFE ARE AN INTERESTING SUBJECT UNTO THEMSELVES.....vkv

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

This thread is not centred around you , but there are several thousands of VKs and I used to be one.

You have mentioned that you are unable to reproduce some phrases. Are you sure you are struggling with the notes ?! Sometimes, you cannot reproduce the same nuances in an instrument fromn that of a vocal and it may sound different,and make you think you are doing it wrong. This happens initially. Even in violin we alter some phrases a bit to suit the instrument. You cannot exactly reproduce a vocal . They are different.

Finding swara or swara identification thread is just above our thread under Music School. Is that what you are talking about?

GM

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

GM, yeah, I do not want this thread to be centered around me, I wish more people who would like to learn participated here. You three are already at quite an advanced stage and are teachers and not students.

I think my issues are really about swaras ( though the issue you are refering to is also there ). Like for something like S, S S S S, R S S N, P N, S S, it is easy to hear when what I play is not same as vocal but it is annoying when I do not readily know what is wrong. I think something like that is in one of the charanams of that Oh Namo song. Also that easy sounding line 'Ohm namo Namah Krishna Gopala is not quite right though the tougher sounding starting line 'kanhare bansuriya bajaayE anandu aye' I got it quite close. Anyway, those are the usual issues with learning anything.

Yes, the Swara Identification threads I was referring to are the sticky ones at the top of the Music School forum.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

I can completely understand what you say. But, remember , we discussed this already , but glossed over it .
There is no way ( absolutely no way) you can reproduce the music of vocal in an instrument. Even an ameteur can sometimes reproduce the filmy songs , or even carnatic, with the right melody, right modulation , intensity in sound, timbre changes within and that is what that makes the music special . Sometimes the amatuer will do it wrong notes a bit, but still can do a make believe with the above qualities. This is entirely different in instrument.

I used to take out the violin everytime I wanted to decipher swaras and it was not working. When I tried to imitate in voice it was 20 times faster. The problem is , as already said, your instrument will not come to help unless you are at an advanced level. So just hum along and let me know how close you get in deciphering with that same Ohm namo nama.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

@cacm, Our music is really not from the "uber-text" and I do not want it to be. No two renditions are ever the same, even by the composers themselves.
vasanthakokilam
In fact I worry that if I start focussing on the swaras I will lose what I have now which is a relationship to ragas directly at the aesthetic level.
You're worrying too much sir. Fear not.

So in the meantime, will you all try the LGJ Madhyamavati? (Pity I'm not in Chennai with free access to my violin and my own practice room, so I can only notate here : ) Or will we go the way of "Om Namo" ?

Phrase 1 : R , , , , S - R, PM R, S, -- S, , (M) RS, n, (n)n, , - p, r S M M R , , (that M M R is played like SMRM R ,)

Now I could do this myself (I have borrowed many phrases from this alaapana already and it has inspired me to plumb this raga), but the beneficiaries should be you. I was hoping that these swaragynana exercises will also refine one's feel for gamaka movements and raga gnyana as an automatic side effect of the exercise, but my own concern now is that unless one exercise is done to completion, it may not yield results.

Otherwise maybe I'll have to transcribe "chakkani rAja mArgamu" instead :lol: :twisted: :mrgreen:

I am just using the forum editor to write those notations down. And it has it's limits and I would ideally prefer hand written notes where I can draw the gamaka movements and show it. It is a very big help and a tip I got from LGJ's hand written composition book which my violin teacher gave me. Still...

Anyone will try phrase 2?

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote:GM, yeah, I do not want this thread to be centered around me, I wish more people who would like to learn participated here. You three are already at quite an advanced stage and are teachers and not students.

.
VK, I do say that in this thread, I have stayed centered on you, but even for me, this thread is not about you. It is just that so far, you are the only one that is asking and adopting ideas. I feel that I have given you mine, and this discussion is making me think, but I have little else to add.

Listening to music has so MANY aspects to it and most of us have one or two strengths. I am not more advanced than you and I'm embarrassed to be referred to as a teacher in your post. I've wondered if my ideas make sense, so I jumped at the chance to share them when you asked, as a co-listener. I do not consider myself "advanced" as a listener but I do consider many others here far more advanced than me, including you. Sometimes I don't even understand the discussions you engage in. I just know how MUCH depth there is and I will only skim the surface around me!

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote:@

Anyone will try phrase 2?
Srinath, I guess I'm included in the question, so I'll tell you.. I would do this only for the fun of it, but won't participate unless we agree not to slow down the video. No gnana from expanding the time, only just what you hear normally. Does that work for you? You don't have to agree and I'll be comfortable not participating.
:)

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Deal. Please do. I am picking my sample tapes so that we can avoid slowing down. This video I have already understood without having to slow down even once.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

We now getting wires crossed. Which video are you talking about. Lalgudi right?

Another deal . Let us make VK inclusive in all the conversation ( By VK , I mean a level he feels he is trailing behind, and that applies to many a VKs of posterity). He has already accused us of being teachers. I secretly enjoy it :). But , let us be a considerate teacher at least.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Lalgudi it is. I wish I had my violin and some privacy to practice then maybe I could have given something even simpler. But as far as this goes, the phrases in this video are simpler and you have the visual reference too.

Pilots, you have the aircraft now.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Thanks, I'm busy for the next 8 hours, you can go ahead and write your notations (all of you) or wait .. In any case I will listen and post as soon as I am free.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Yes, do fly as high as you like. I do not mind trailing, this way i know what to look forward to. ( my boss's advice of late is, don't be the 'est person in a room. ( smartest, cutest...). It is hard work, it annoys everyone else, you do not have anything to look forward to and you can only go down which isn't a lot of fun ;) ) j/k

I can not hum and get the swaras for 'om namo nama'. That is the ongoing skill development. It is too late anyway, I had been trying that on the flute. The closest sounding one is: 'P, M1 G2, M1, G2 R2, G2 M1 R2 S, S, Though G2 M1 R2 goes with the dominant raga theme, P, M1 G2 M1, G2 R2, G2 R2, S S, S, also sounds close.

I will work on LGJ Madyamavathi later on. It is OK if you post the swaras, I will do it without consulting your answers and then compare.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sorry, been busy till just an hour ago.. I'm almost done, have a small part left, probably the most crowded with swarms.. I've scribbled the whole thing down on paper, and from my experience looking at some other snippets that were notated by one of you, it is unreadable, incomprehensible. Sometimes, when I restart the music in the middle, I find it hard to find where it is in the text before it is too late! Nothing more boring.. Is there a better way? Should I post in small parts? And who are all going to post notations?

I only did the LGJ part, not planning to do Krishnan's.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Turns out I was doing Krishnan's too, wasn't looking at the video, though I stopped and rewound many times to get the very fast swarms.. Done all of it except one or two fast phrases and then it slows down becoming very easy again but I am too tired. Now you all tell me what to do with what I have written down.

what about the two of you? Where are you with it?

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Ranganayaki,
I am with you. It is a great task to notate and I am still finding a way to do it. Luckily , unlike /srinath I have the instrument with me, and I can follow it and soak in it. But notating itself is an art to be learnt I think . I think swara writing is not as easy as swara deciphering. :cry:
I will find a way out. I tried scribbling in paper too , but that works deterrent . Be there soon.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Btw do you recognize the younger man playing the tambura?

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

That was why I was asking you to work on no more than a couple of phrases at a time. :P It is one atom after another over time that makes the ocean. :-)

But it's definitely a great effort and i can fully appreciate the struggle. I am eagerly looking forward to see it. It took me 5 hours once to notate LGJs magnificent Meru Santana rendition so it's hard. My teacher liked it so much he took a copy and that was so encouraging. You may have already seen it is a little difficult to type notation on the pc. :P

A tip, try to sing the phrase your hear by yourself and decode it then and there not on paper, but do sing or play. It is easier.

I think it was Vitthal Ramamurthy on the tanpura.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Mohan Iyer had a notation macro for Word ( I think ). I will alert him to this thread and he can explain if what he did is relevant here.

mohan
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by mohan »

You can download the 'swaram' font for Windows I developed at:
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/fonts/carnatic-fonts.zip

An example of this font in use is at http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/bhavayami.pdf

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Mohan

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote:That was why I was asking you to work on no more than a couple of phrases at a time. :P It is one atom after another over time that makes the ocean. :-)

A tip, try to sing the phrase your hear by yourself and decode it then -and there not on paper, but do sing or play. It is easier.

I think it was Vitthal Ramamurthy on the tanpura.
Correct, it was Vitthal.


Well I intended to do it little by little, but I got carried away, immersed in it. Decoding is not difficult for me, except for the fastest brighas or anuswarams, but writing it out is. Unfortunately I don't have a computer now as it has conked.. I didn't notice b4 typing this on my phone whether Mohan's software it was a mobile app .

Ihad written the notes then and there, but not on PC, so I didn't experience that, but I imagine this software may make it better.

My question is - how do we share it? I don't want to write a page of incomprehensible swaras.. And I want it to be a sharing, fun experience.

What do you propose?

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Two ways. Write it phrase by phrase like I have here, one phrase per line. If necessary specify the time in the video where it occurs and we'll cover this over a few posts. Else, write in a notebook, take a snap, upload to dropbox and share the link.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Ok.. Not sure if I will enjoy this..
I will do 10 or 20 seconds at a time.. I hope GM will share his version too.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

When a swara's gamaka takes it to another swara, I will not write that swara.. I will write the swara I hear telling me it's name. For example, the very first ri is elongated and and ends at a sa.. If I were to sing it, I would sing the exact same thing as a ri.. And not say sa.

For he more complicated swaras I have no idea what rules are appropriate, will have to figure hat out.

The link to this LGJ Madhyamavati video is buried way back in this thread. So I'm pasting it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO2RU0E9Nac

03-07 :- R,,,,, (touches down at S, but that is not a swara in my mind)
07-09 :- RM -R,, (same as above)
09-13 :- S,,S,nP, (First S receiving a slide up from lower P, second S plain)(no. Of commas not really corresponding to an exact elongation)
13-15 : P-RSR,,, (Trade mark phrase, in my mind )
16-18 : R,R,SSNP,
18-21 : R,,nP,, (small letter fleeting stop on the swarA) (lower P here)
21-24 : R,SR-NSR,snP, (the first R receives a slide up from lower P. Last P is lower.
25-27 : P,M, pN,,sR, (both lower P, gamaka on final R touches S)
28-30 : RM,R,,(ending on sa again)

Your turns.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

8-) . That's it. Keep 'em coming.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Ranganayaki

Thanks at least you have made a start and I am trailing behind.

I think we will go with the crude form as all of us can understand the subtleties.

Between your 7 and 9 seconds to be precise it should be

RM(mpm with a clear Pa embillishment) and then R(rsrs..)

But what you have written is only the possible way with this notation.

Srinath, Is that OK or should we go advanced? But , when we all know we are OK what is the point in doing it so crude. Personally, I see no point in it. But , truly for someone who wants to learn and struggling like VK ( OK VK .. VK= Those at the threshold of OK :) ) , we have to see if it helps . I just want to know if what VKs (VK with an s means several VK)nhears between that 7 and 9. The Ranganayaki phrase or mine?

But is there any app we can customize our own notes and symbol with a text editor. Actually there is a beautiful symbol method I know which I would talk to VK to know if we could have it here.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote:
I think we will go with the crude form as all of us can understand the subtleties.

Between your 7 and 9 seconds to be precise it should be

RM(mpm with a clear Pa embillishment) and then R(rsrs..)

But what you have written is only the possible way with this notation.
GM, crude! I don't do crude! :)

What's missing that would be in a finer form? At this stage of the alapana there isn't much else.

Regarding 7 to 9, I listened again, and the pa you think there is is not there. What you hear there could be an almost janta on M, not pa. I realize I missed that little janta.

That said, in 13-15 there is a ma embellishment on the Ri. But I chose not to write it as a notation because if you sing those phrases, you are not going to pronounce those embellishments. Then they would no longer be embellishments, but - well uglifications, I'll call them that..

To continue with 7-9, about the trailing Rsrs, it's the same thing. That phrase would be sung as R,,,. No singer will pronounce it as Rsrs. Also please read my note at the beginning of the post about how I treat gamakas. This is a gamaka on R. You are not supposed to split a gamaka. If you do, you are negating an important part of the note a new making it several plain notes.

Now that I have shared these 30 seconds, I must say I find that I am not enjoying this. It is pointless for me to be doing this on a forum. I feel it should be done privately. I will not enjoy arguing with you on whether a particular note should be written down or not. It serves no purpose. Lastly, I am not here to do SrinathK's bidding while he sits back sipping lemonade on his poolside recliner. As I said before I would do it only for the fun, of which there is none. So thanks, I'm leaving this thread.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Ranganayaki

Wait, wait , yes I said it is crude which is not to be taken as an impolite word, but rather easy.By easy we also miss the embellishments. It is a Janta of Ma as mapama. But since there is a difference between different treatments of it. And besides, without sounding conceited I have no problem with deciphering notes, and my problem is of late all those apaswarams are too glaring ( VK you should not get there for heaven's sake).

Besides, the point is to get more people onboard who are struggling to understand the swara part and for those who think it matters to appreciate. It mattered to me and I overcame it and that is what I was sharing . So it is nice of you that you volunteered and with good tips. Deciphering may not prove a point of course, but do not storm out. You can chip in whenever you feel to and we may even give a shout.

Besides, Srinath, is it true that you are you on a poolside recliner sipping lemonade.... and who is with you Lalit Modi and Paris Hilton?! :) J/K.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>yes I said it is crude which is not to be taken as an impolite word

cool. I am glad you clarified that

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ranganayaki wrote: My question is - how do we share it? I don't want to write a page of incomprehensible swaras.. And I want it to be a sharing, fun experience.

What do you propose?
Actually it will be retro-cool if you can take a photo of the page and post it as an image, if that is easier. As long as it is readable, that will be fine.
To post a picture, go to http://tinypic.com/ and upload the photo and post the resulting link. ( you still need a computer for this, but let me see if there are any mobile apps for this site which can upload from the photo roll of the phone )

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

ganesh_mourthy wrote :
Besides, Srinath, is it true that you are you on a poolside recliner sipping lemonade.... and who is with you Lalit Modi and Paris Hilton?!
Yeah, sunbathing in my own mansion fortress on my personal island featuring a Disneyland, a beach, a runway and a bridge connecting to mainland, with a Laferrari parked in my garage, bodyguards with lethal weapons patrolling 24x7, blood alcohol well above legal limits, working out ever more devious and scandalous ways of making my fellow rasikas' lives just that bit more miserable than yesterday over a good dose of weed, while I'm wanted in 86 countries and 13 states and a couple of other planets too by paparazzi and police alike . :twisted: :lol: :evil: I might certainly have laughed along if you had not invoked those names sir. You have made me look very low. :evil: :twisted:

It's more like someone using whatever little time or opportunity he has, far away from home, with little privacy, to see what little he can contribute to the music that has given him so much, a music ultimately appreciated by few and sustained by even fewer, never mind that in many ways he isn't really that qualified at all for the job. :lol:
Last edited by SrinathK on 31 Jul 2015, 09:41, edited 3 times in total.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Ranganayaki wrote:
Lastly, I am not here to do SrinathK's bidding while he sits back sipping lemonade on his poolside recliner.
I cannot sense the tone from an online post, or what triggered you to say that, but you did me an injustice there. I am not the type who expects others to "do his bidding" while he contributes nothing himself. You set the rules for participating and I accepted. I am fully aware of how difficult it is trying to make sense of a topic like this on a forum and I was eager to appreciate everyone's efforts. Instead you have made me feel that I have dominated the thread and behaved condescendingly to some of you here.

For the record, I was not going to ask any more exercises or notating work after this demo. I am fully aware I am no teacher and this is not my music class. After this I had intended to share some recordings of ragas and swaras to show how and what to listen to and it was entirely in the readers' interest as to whether they would do any research or practice with it.

I also stated earlier that notating in CM is only a guide to memory and creativity and cannot really represent everything in the music. It becomes a personal thing very quickly and each one has their own style.

But perhaps you are right. This thread has probably not lived up to its hopes. @vk, I'm sorry. I did not know that my enthusiasm to share the tricks of the trade, a craft that musicians work on day after day on and off the stage, would have created this impression of me that I was trying to force feed. Now I'm having second thoughts myself. Perhaps I can spend my time better doing something else, rather than "sipping lemonade" while others feel they're slogging for a "brat's" whims.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

So many things to respond to since I left this morning. It seems my words have created quite the upset! Sorry.

Srinath, you sound hurt by my words, and I did not mean to do that. I am sorry. Going by your words, I feel especially bad that this might have coloured your day or evening or even night depending on where you are. I feel really bad about that. Relax, my friend, and take it a little easy if you are still upset.

GM, you sound anxious about the effect on me about your use of the word crude! I wish you had noticed my smilies! I thought those were enough! I was just pretending to interpret it another way.. But more than anyone else, I know how online words are such a poor vehicle of emotional content. There was absolutely no clarification needed.

I will respond now to Srinath in a little detail, but I want to get this off first, to repair the mood a little and especially, comfort Srinath without delay, though he may not need "comforting".. Sometimes I get worked up, so I want to make sure :).

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

I am so sorry, I am extremely tired and dozed off over my iPad and my fingers clicked somewhere and I lost what I'd typed.

I will respond in the morning.

Thanks.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I feel bad that most of the threads ends up leaving a bad taste in mouth. At this stage there are very little rasikas I feel comfortable responding to the reason why I stopped participating in some threads which looks more of a bull fight rather than a forum discussion.

By the by , in a forum like this where we have taken things and discuss it threadbare, I feel that it is ok to have some ( or rather more Sarcasm), getting worked up a bit, storming out and coming back to participate, little jokes, jest , lighten the air, a bit of analogy, sometimes boring and sometimes humoruous, all of which is part of the game that children play . Especially , this thread is not meant to be serious and is going to be a longhaul and sometimes tedious. It is not about Whether we want to do it or not , do you enjoy doing it or not.
There is this book called "Happiness of Pursuit" by Chris Guillebeau. It is not chasing happiness the book is about. if you really enjoy something even the travel to it should make you happy including all the odds. One of the best books I have read in the recent times. Likewise, just participating in this and seeing it taking shape makes be feel good. I am not desperate about the end result. Let us go at a relaxed pace.

Srinath I am game to continue , but when all three of us are sure about the notations and agree that we have no problem with it , should we still notate it. Because even in Mohan app I am not able to notate. But I realized that even film songs cannot be notated to perfection.

I listened to this youtube and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh0NobmG2Sw

Just for a few seconds from 17 to 25 is full of subtleties. But if have to write it as plain notes it is not that IR music and it may sound like tinkle tinkle little star.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Ok. Ok. Everyone. I've since then relaxed and let it all go. Forgiveness is the request. <Deep Breath>

I can understand how hard it is when we are past our limits and some frustration starts coming in when our efforts aren't working as well as we've wanted. The notation effort to highlight the first part of the alapana is commendable and spot on actually and I wanted to point it out, with the timestamp and all. I had actually wanted to do it to show on the forum how it's done for anyone else who will visit these threads, but for us I can see we really don't need it. That also would have given some insight into Madhyamavati as such. But it has given me ideas to take to the ragas section some other day.

@ganesh_mourthy, this has brought us to one very important thing - just what happened to me also after a point. I had brought several books of compositions and notations (by respected musicians and musicologists no less) and after a point I found myself dissatisfied with all of them, for the exact same reason that this thread has highlighted.

We all hear the same thing. But at some point our musical processing becomes a personal experience and we need to listen to the music and decode it in our own way so that the nuances are embedded in our memory and in this we each have our own style to suit us. Some want minimalist and others want to note every detail, even drawing symbols to feel the movements. Ultimately it is necessary that we do this work by ourselves.

I would have like to complete the exercise (and maybe I will do it myself), but I will satisfy myself by posting any good material for training our "swara pathways" in the brain.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I think instead of alapana , it would be better to take up one ( just one) sangathiful and brigafull line of a song and we can try . So , it is easier to locate. So whichever line we can drop in the drop box. just the line. But no deadline Ranganayaki.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Actually that is how it ought to be done. But for that I would have to split a recording into countless parts and find a place on soundcloud to put it too. With so many ragas and swaras and sangathis out there, all that takes .... time <understatement, more like half a life> :roll: . Which is why I thought of doing an alapana phrase by phrase. Anyone game for "PROJECT PHRASE" ? :twisted: :lol:

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Glad you are both back to normal, but it's a late and busy morning again, so I'm unable to rewrite rightaway what I'd started, typing more slowly on a virtual keyboard.

I too prefer to see the exercise completed and have you both too share your versions of the first 30 seconds ( that's why I left in a huff at Srinath's words) in post 178.

I was not at all frustrated by the task, it made me see the alap in detail and enjoy it better! I was quite happy with my efforts too it wasn't frustrating, it was the interaction that bugged me, will explain.

Like Srinath, I too prefer alapana, though I am not sure I will participate. Will explain how I feel about that too.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Srainath, Actually it is easy and nowhere close to the herculean task of wrting a notation with the brighas and anuswaras. Play any song frm your MP3 through MP3 cutter and plaer , cut the most catchy phrase or the one you feel is challenging and then just put that in the drop box. The whole process will not take more than a min. But , of course you would have the choice to select the best phrase. May be 10 seconds max. I will do the first 30 second too and try to post it by Sundday.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

That will be a lot of links @gm !! But ok. That I can do. No link longer than 1 or 2 phrases, a few seconds at most. One raga at a time.

The problem is all our ideas are perfect. But the forum media means that the instant feedback is missing. What we would have done in 1 min at home is taking a long time here.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote: Actually it will be retro-cool if you can take a photo of the page and post it as an image, if that is easier. As long as it is readable, that will be fine.
To post a picture, go to http://tinypic.com/ and upload the photo and post the resulting link. ( you still need a computer for this, but let me see if there are any mobile apps for this site which can upload from the photo roll of the phone )
VK,

I scribbled the notes on a paper, and when I tried to post, it was actually incomprehensible to me and I had to re-listen and compare.. The example of the font in use reminded me of the standard convention and though it was an alapana, I tried to adapt it to the tala-free form. So I actually did the work twice. I feel it is now readable as 2-3 second phrases as I posted, but I received no feedback on that, so I don't know.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

-------
Decided to remove my post, I don't think it is useful for my explanations to stay there much longer.

Going by the later exchanges just before this post, it seems to me that you are all mainly interested in brigha identification. That's fine and I might enjoy it too. I just don't think that that approach is appropriate for this particular alapana by Lalgudi, certainly for the opening R which GM discussed. I will explain myself in a fresh post.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 01 Aug 2015, 08:51, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

If you give this alapana (Lalgudi's madhyamavati) to a musician and ask them to sing the swaras for the first 10 seconds, I am betting that no matter how brigha and anuswara oriented they are, they will not render the opening Ri or the endin Ri in the second phrase as rsrsrs. They will only say,"Ri...." Though I too hear him touch the sa, and I agree that it is there, the swara he intends to convey is the Ri. The beauty he conveys is the Ri.

If you say that it is rsrsrs, then those are individual swaras and while you can be happy you caught that, you have missed the gamaka, they are a clutch of individual notes, and Madhyamavati is gone. An approach that keeps in mind the larger picture of the raga while discussing the individual swaras - that's a crude version?

On the other hand in a brigha- filled sangati each individual swara can be notated because they are not parts of other swaras. If you can do that without slowing down the recording, at GNB's speed like in that palinchu phrase we discussed, then hats off to you. I know I cannot do it, except to catch the main swaras around which the brighas hang and a little more.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 01 Aug 2015, 03:25, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

I really appreciate Srinath for not getting hopping mad at me and retaliating, instead of just letting me know he was hurt. I wish everyone could be like that :). You made it easier, Srinath! Appreciate GM too for caring always and writing in a spirit of fun, even though I got upset in spite of feeling/knowing that. VK - sollave vendaam! :)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nice, Ranganayaki. That line 'sollave Vendaam' sounds like a great starting line for a song.. May be a padam or javali ;) Your last post provided the nice bridge to a more mundane thing I wanted to say. When everything is said and done, you are the one who provided the swara breakdown in post #177

That one is indeed very useful. That is very readable as well. That will definitely do for me. Thanks. I need to find some quiet time to sit down and absorb all this.

On the intervening extra-curricular commentary, not much to add except a) let us not shoot for any perfection and b) even if it is not useful to you all as scribes, believe me, it is useful to me and hopefully a lot of others.

Notating gamaka is something we can make some progress on with modern tools and it is a companion topic tot his. It has been attempted by many people of great calibre but with only limited success but they did not have the modern tools at their disposal. We are ideally suited for this purpose, I think we can crack that. Just stating that here so we do not get distracted and frustrated by the limitations of text for notational purposes, we will do our best.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Notating gamaka is something we can make some progress on with modern tools and it is a companion topic tot his. It has been attempted by many people of great calibre but with only limited success but they did not have the modern tools at their disposal. We are ideally suited for this purpose, I think we can crack that. Just stating that here so we do not get distracted and frustrated by the limitations of text for notational purposes, we will do our best.
Oh, yes, if a convention can be developed, clearly distinguishing a gamaka notation from the regular notation of swaras, any swaras and brighas, it would work. But given that we don't have the means to do that, I couldn't see how they can be usefully represented without resorting to explanatory notes on the side. I think a simple color and font-size change and arrows to indicate slides would be good ideas. So when the gamaka color occurs for a swara in a notation, you don't have to include those in the Edam count.

For example when the ri begins as a slide from the low pa, ps is written small in red, with an upward curving arrow fitted in, and then the Ri, but the whole count belongs to the Ri written in black. That would be wonderful! And adding the gamaka details will bring out the beauty in an explicit way and can serve as a guide to the singing in the absence of recordings)

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