Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Jul 2015, 09:31

Ok.. Not sure if I will enjoy this..
I will do 10 or 20 seconds at a time.. I hope GM will share his version too.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Jul 2015, 10:21

When a swara's gamaka takes it to another swara, I will not write that swara.. I will write the swara I hear telling me it's name. For example, the very first ri is elongated and and ends at a sa.. If I were to sing it, I would sing the exact same thing as a ri.. And not say sa.

For he more complicated swaras I have no idea what rules are appropriate, will have to figure hat out.

The link to this LGJ Madhyamavati video is buried way back in this thread. So I'm pasting it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO2RU0E9Nac

03-07 :- R,,,,, (touches down at S, but that is not a swara in my mind)
07-09 :- RM -R,, (same as above)
09-13 :- S,,S,nP, (First S receiving a slide up from lower P, second S plain)(no. Of commas not really corresponding to an exact elongation)
13-15 : P-RSR,,, (Trade mark phrase, in my mind )
16-18 : R,R,SSNP,
18-21 : R,,nP,, (small letter fleeting stop on the swarA) (lower P here)
21-24 : R,SR-NSR,snP, (the first R receives a slide up from lower P. Last P is lower.
25-27 : P,M, pN,,sR, (both lower P, gamaka on final R touches S)
28-30 : RM,R,,(ending on sa again)

Your turns.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 30 Jul 2015, 14:33

. That's it. Keep 'em coming.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 30 Jul 2015, 14:40

Ranganayaki

Thanks at least you have made a start and I am trailing behind.

I think we will go with the crude form as all of us can understand the subtleties.

Between your 7 and 9 seconds to be precise it should be

RM(mpm with a clear Pa embillishment) and then R(rsrs..)

But what you have written is only the possible way with this notation.

Srinath, Is that OK or should we go advanced? But , when we all know we are OK what is the point in doing it so crude. Personally, I see no point in it. But , truly for someone who wants to learn and struggling like VK ( OK VK .. VK= Those at the threshold of OK

) , we have to see if it helps . I just want to know if what VKs (VK with an s means several VK)nhears between that 7 and 9. The Ranganayaki phrase or mine?

But is there any app we can customize our own notes and symbol with a text editor. Actually there is a beautiful symbol method I know which I would talk to VK to know if we could have it here.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Jul 2015, 15:52

ganesh_mourthy wrote:
I think we will go with the crude form as all of us can understand the subtleties.

Between your 7 and 9 seconds to be precise it should be

RM(mpm with a clear Pa embillishment) and then R(rsrs..)

But what you have written is only the possible way with this notation.

GM, crude! I don't do crude!

What's missing that would be in a finer form? At this stage of the alapana there isn't much else.

Regarding 7 to 9, I listened again, and the pa you think there is is not there. What you hear there could be an almost janta on M, not pa. I realize I missed that little janta.

That said, in 13-15 there is a ma embellishment on the Ri. But I chose not to write it as a notation because if you sing those phrases, you are not going to pronounce those embellishments. Then they would no longer be embellishments, but - well uglifications, I'll call them that..

To continue with 7-9, about the trailing Rsrs, it's the same thing. That phrase would be sung as R,,,. No singer will pronounce it as Rsrs. Also please read my note at the beginning of the post about how I treat gamakas. This is a gamaka on R. You are not supposed to split a gamaka. If you do, you are negating an important part of the note a new making it several plain notes.

Now that I have shared these 30 seconds, I must say I find that I am not enjoying this. It is pointless for me to be doing this on a forum. I feel it should be done privately. I will not enjoy arguing with you on whether a particular note should be written down or not. It serves no purpose. Lastly, I am not here to do SrinathK's bidding while he sits back sipping lemonade on his poolside recliner. As I said before I would do it only for the fun, of which there is none. So thanks, I'm leaving this thread.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 30 Jul 2015, 16:15

Ranganayaki

Wait, wait , yes I said it is crude which is not to be taken as an impolite word, but rather easy.By easy we also miss the embellishments. It is a Janta of Ma as mapama. But since there is a difference between different treatments of it. And besides, without sounding conceited I have no problem with deciphering notes, and my problem is of late all those apaswarams are too glaring ( VK you should not get there for heaven's sake).

Besides, the point is to get more people onboard who are struggling to understand the swara part and for those who think it matters to appreciate. It mattered to me and I overcame it and that is what I was sharing . So it is nice of you that you volunteered and with good tips. Deciphering may not prove a point of course, but do not storm out. You can chip in whenever you feel to and we may even give a shout.

Besides, Srinath, is it true that you are you on a poolside recliner sipping lemonade.... and who is with you Lalit Modi and Paris Hilton?!

J/K.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Jul 2015, 23:06

>yes I said it is crude which is not to be taken as an impolite word

cool. I am glad you clarified that

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Jul 2015, 23:14

Ranganayaki wrote: My question is - how do we share it? I don't want to write a page of incomprehensible swaras.. And I want it to be a sharing, fun experience.

What do you propose?

Actually it will be retro-cool if you can take a photo of the page and post it as an image, if that is easier. As long as it is readable, that will be fine.
To post a picture, go to http://tinypic.com/ and upload the photo and post the resulting link. ( you still need a computer for this, but let me see if there are any mobile apps for this site which can upload from the photo roll of the phone )

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 31 Jul 2015, 00:05

ganesh_mourthy wrote :
Besides, Srinath, is it true that you are you on a poolside recliner sipping lemonade.... and who is with you Lalit Modi and Paris Hilton?!

Yeah, sunbathing in my own mansion fortress on my personal island featuring a Disneyland, a beach, a runway and a bridge connecting to mainland, with a Laferrari parked in my garage, bodyguards with lethal weapons patrolling 24x7, blood alcohol well above legal limits, working out ever more devious and scandalous ways of making my fellow rasikas' lives just that bit more miserable than yesterday over a good dose of weed, while I'm wanted in 86 countries and 13 states and a couple of other planets too by paparazzi and police alike .

I might certainly have laughed along if you had not invoked those names sir. You have made me look very low.

It's more like someone using whatever little time or opportunity he has, far away from home, with little privacy, to see what little he can contribute to the music that has given him so much, a music ultimately appreciated by few and sustained by even fewer, never mind that in many ways he isn't really that qualified at all for the job.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 31 Jul 2015, 01:21

Ranganayaki wrote:
Lastly, I am not here to do SrinathK's bidding while he sits back sipping lemonade on his poolside recliner.

I cannot sense the tone from an online post, or what triggered you to say that, but you did me an injustice there. I am not the type who expects others to "do his bidding" while he contributes nothing himself. You set the rules for participating and I accepted. I am fully aware of how difficult it is trying to make sense of a topic like this on a forum and I was eager to appreciate everyone's efforts. Instead you have made me feel that I have dominated the thread and behaved condescendingly to some of you here.

For the record, I was not going to ask any more exercises or notating work after this demo. I am fully aware I am no teacher and this is not my music class. After this I had intended to share some recordings of ragas and swaras to show how and what to listen to and it was entirely in the readers' interest as to whether they would do any research or practice with it.

I also stated earlier that notating in CM is only a guide to memory and creativity and cannot really represent everything in the music. It becomes a personal thing very quickly and each one has their own style.

But perhaps you are right. This thread has probably not lived up to its hopes. @vk, I'm sorry. I did not know that my enthusiasm to share the tricks of the trade, a craft that musicians work on day after day on and off the stage, would have created this impression of me that I was trying to force feed. Now I'm having second thoughts myself. Perhaps I can spend my time better doing something else, rather than "sipping lemonade" while others feel they're slogging for a "brat's" whims.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 31 Jul 2015, 07:29

So many things to respond to since I left this morning. It seems my words have created quite the upset! Sorry.

Srinath, you sound hurt by my words, and I did not mean to do that. I am sorry. Going by your words, I feel especially bad that this might have coloured your day or evening or even night depending on where you are. I feel really bad about that. Relax, my friend, and take it a little easy if you are still upset.

GM, you sound anxious about the effect on me about your use of the word crude! I wish you had noticed my smilies! I thought those were enough! I was just pretending to interpret it another way.. But more than anyone else, I know how online words are such a poor vehicle of emotional content. There was absolutely no clarification needed.

I will respond now to Srinath in a little detail, but I want to get this off first, to repair the mood a little and especially, comfort Srinath without delay, though he may not need "comforting".. Sometimes I get worked up, so I want to make sure

.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 31 Jul 2015, 08:41

I am so sorry, I am extremely tired and dozed off over my iPad and my fingers clicked somewhere and I lost what I'd typed.

I will respond in the morning.

Thanks.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 31 Jul 2015, 09:37

I feel bad that most of the threads ends up leaving a bad taste in mouth. At this stage there are very little rasikas I feel comfortable responding to the reason why I stopped participating in some threads which looks more of a bull fight rather than a forum discussion.

By the by , in a forum like this where we have taken things and discuss it threadbare, I feel that it is ok to have some ( or rather more Sarcasm), getting worked up a bit, storming out and coming back to participate, little jokes, jest , lighten the air, a bit of analogy, sometimes boring and sometimes humoruous, all of which is part of the game that children play . Especially , this thread is not meant to be serious and is going to be a longhaul and sometimes tedious. It is not about Whether we want to do it or not , do you enjoy doing it or not.
There is this book called "Happiness of Pursuit" by Chris Guillebeau. It is not chasing happiness the book is about. if you really enjoy something even the travel to it should make you happy including all the odds. One of the best books I have read in the recent times. Likewise, just participating in this and seeing it taking shape makes be feel good. I am not desperate about the end result. Let us go at a relaxed pace.

Srinath I am game to continue , but when all three of us are sure about the notations and agree that we have no problem with it , should we still notate it. Because even in Mohan app I am not able to notate. But I realized that even film songs cannot be notated to perfection.

I listened to this youtube and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh0NobmG2Sw

Just for a few seconds from 17 to 25 is full of subtleties. But if have to write it as plain notes it is not that IR music and it may sound like tinkle tinkle little star.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 31 Jul 2015, 10:07

Ok. Ok. Everyone. I've since then relaxed and let it all go. Forgiveness is the request. <Deep Breath>

I can understand how hard it is when we are past our limits and some frustration starts coming in when our efforts aren't working as well as we've wanted. The notation effort to highlight the first part of the alapana is commendable and spot on actually and I wanted to point it out, with the timestamp and all. I had actually wanted to do it to show on the forum how it's done for anyone else who will visit these threads, but for us I can see we really don't need it. That also would have given some insight into Madhyamavati as such. But it has given me ideas to take to the ragas section some other day.

@ganesh_mourthy, this has brought us to one very important thing - just what happened to me also after a point. I had brought several books of compositions and notations (by respected musicians and musicologists no less) and after a point I found myself dissatisfied with all of them, for the exact same reason that this thread has highlighted.

We all hear the same thing. But at some point our musical processing becomes a personal experience and we need to listen to the music and decode it in our own way so that the nuances are embedded in our memory and in this we each have our own style to suit us. Some want minimalist and others want to note every detail, even drawing symbols to feel the movements. Ultimately it is necessary that we do this work by ourselves.

I would have like to complete the exercise (and maybe I will do it myself), but I will satisfy myself by posting any good material for training our "swara pathways" in the brain.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 31 Jul 2015, 19:35

I think instead of alapana , it would be better to take up one ( just one) sangathiful and brigafull line of a song and we can try . So , it is easier to locate. So whichever line we can drop in the drop box. just the line. But no deadline Ranganayaki.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 31 Jul 2015, 19:45

Actually that is how it ought to be done. But for that I would have to split a recording into countless parts and find a place on soundcloud to put it too. With so many ragas and swaras and sangathis out there, all that takes .... time <understatement, more like half a life>

. Which is why I thought of doing an alapana phrase by phrase. Anyone game for "PROJECT PHRASE" ?

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 31 Jul 2015, 20:17

Glad you are both back to normal, but it's a late and busy morning again, so I'm unable to rewrite rightaway what I'd started, typing more slowly on a virtual keyboard.

I too prefer to see the exercise completed and have you both too share your versions of the first 30 seconds ( that's why I left in a huff at Srinath's words) in post 178.

I was not at all frustrated by the task, it made me see the alap in detail and enjoy it better! I was quite happy with my efforts too it wasn't frustrating, it was the interaction that bugged me, will explain.

Like Srinath, I too prefer alapana, though I am not sure I will participate. Will explain how I feel about that too.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 31 Jul 2015, 22:15

Srainath, Actually it is easy and nowhere close to the herculean task of wrting a notation with the brighas and anuswaras. Play any song frm your MP3 through MP3 cutter and plaer , cut the most catchy phrase or the one you feel is challenging and then just put that in the drop box. The whole process will not take more than a min. But , of course you would have the choice to select the best phrase. May be 10 seconds max. I will do the first 30 second too and try to post it by Sundday.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 31 Jul 2015, 22:48

That will be a lot of links @gm !! But ok. That I can do. No link longer than 1 or 2 phrases, a few seconds at most. One raga at a time.

The problem is all our ideas are perfect. But the forum media means that the instant feedback is missing. What we would have done in 1 min at home is taking a long time here.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 01 Aug 2015, 00:31

vasanthakokilam wrote: Actually it will be retro-cool if you can take a photo of the page and post it as an image, if that is easier. As long as it is readable, that will be fine.
To post a picture, go to http://tinypic.com/ and upload the photo and post the resulting link. ( you still need a computer for this, but let me see if there are any mobile apps for this site which can upload from the photo roll of the phone )

VK,

I scribbled the notes on a paper, and when I tried to post, it was actually incomprehensible to me and I had to re-listen and compare.. The example of the font in use reminded me of the standard convention and though it was an alapana, I tried to adapt it to the tala-free form. So I actually did the work twice. I feel it is now readable as 2-3 second phrases as I posted, but I received no feedback on that, so I don't know.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 01 Aug 2015, 01:41

-------
Decided to remove my post, I don't think it is useful for my explanations to stay there much longer.

Going by the later exchanges just before this post, it seems to me that you are all mainly interested in brigha identification. That's fine and I might enjoy it too. I just don't think that that approach is appropriate for this particular alapana by Lalgudi, certainly for the opening R which GM discussed. I will explain myself in a fresh post.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 01 Aug 2015, 02:06

If you give this alapana (Lalgudi's madhyamavati) to a musician and ask them to sing the swaras for the first 10 seconds, I am betting that no matter how brigha and anuswara oriented they are, they will not render the opening Ri or the endin Ri in the second phrase as rsrsrs. They will only say,"Ri...." Though I too hear him touch the sa, and I agree that it is there, the swara he intends to convey is the Ri. The beauty he conveys is the Ri.

If you say that it is rsrsrs, then those are individual swaras and while you can be happy you caught that, you have missed the gamaka, they are a clutch of individual notes, and Madhyamavati is gone. An approach that keeps in mind the larger picture of the raga while discussing the individual swaras - that's a crude version?

On the other hand in a brigha- filled sangati each individual swara can be notated because they are not parts of other swaras. If you can do that without slowing down the recording, at GNB's speed like in that palinchu phrase we discussed, then hats off to you. I know I cannot do it, except to catch the main swaras around which the brighas hang and a little more.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 01 Aug 2015, 02:29

I really appreciate Srinath for not getting hopping mad at me and retaliating, instead of just letting me know he was hurt. I wish everyone could be like that

. You made it easier, Srinath! Appreciate GM too for caring always and writing in a spirit of fun, even though I got upset in spite of feeling/knowing that. VK - sollave vendaam!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Aug 2015, 02:41

Nice, Ranganayaki. That line 'sollave Vendaam' sounds like a great starting line for a song.. May be a padam or javali

Your last post provided the nice bridge to a more mundane thing I wanted to say. When everything is said and done, you are the one who provided the swara breakdown in post #177

That one is indeed very useful. That is very readable as well. That will definitely do for me. Thanks. I need to find some quiet time to sit down and absorb all this.

On the intervening extra-curricular commentary, not much to add except a) let us not shoot for any perfection and b) even if it is not useful to you all as scribes, believe me, it is useful to me and hopefully a lot of others.

Notating gamaka is something we can make some progress on with modern tools and it is a companion topic tot his. It has been attempted by many people of great calibre but with only limited success but they did not have the modern tools at their disposal. We are ideally suited for this purpose, I think we can crack that. Just stating that here so we do not get distracted and frustrated by the limitations of text for notational purposes, we will do our best.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 01 Aug 2015, 03:36

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Notating gamaka is something we can make some progress on with modern tools and it is a companion topic tot his. It has been attempted by many people of great calibre but with only limited success but they did not have the modern tools at their disposal. We are ideally suited for this purpose, I think we can crack that. Just stating that here so we do not get distracted and frustrated by the limitations of text for notational purposes, we will do our best.

Oh, yes, if a convention can be developed, clearly distinguishing a gamaka notation from the regular notation of swaras, any swaras and brighas, it would work. But given that we don't have the means to do that, I couldn't see how they can be usefully represented without resorting to explanatory notes on the side. I think a simple color and font-size change and arrows to indicate slides would be good ideas. So when the gamaka color occurs for a swara in a notation, you don't have to include those in the Edam count.

For example when the ri begins as a slide from the low pa, ps is written small in red, with an upward curving arrow fitted in, and then the Ri, but the whole count belongs to the Ri written in black. That would be wonderful! And adding the gamaka details will bring out the beauty in an explicit way and can serve as a guide to the singing in the absence of recordings)

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 01 Aug 2015, 07:30

VK , wait wait. There is a good one already. I have sent a mail to you. After deliberating on it we can discuss it here. It is excellent notation system where you can have 90 % accuracy.

VK I have sent a mail to you from this forum, pls reply to that. I will send you a few samples and then we will think about posting here.I will also send it to Ranganayaki, and Srinath.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 01 Aug 2015, 09:12

I promise you I will also share my version of the alapana. Actually I was waiting for gm and vk to try something first.

But I need a day as things have turned really hectic at work and I am itching for the Sunday (When you are woken up in that morning and yelled at for not submitting that document you promised to get ready past midnight because you dozed off, you can understand

) . That very short post of mine was actually typed off my smartphone (I had meant it to ask gm and vk to try their hand at it actually) and I would have to get back to my PC with a real keyboard and a video player and a 3G connection at least before I can do anything or give my usually elaborate posts. I understand that without 93% of the rest of non-verbal communication that is impossible across forums AND the absence of context, it may have felt like that. But I hope I've clarified my position now.

@Ranganayaki, I very much liked the commentary at the end of each phrase, you explain your methodology and some of the details in the phrases. I have in fact translated the 1st 15 seconds already at the beginning in a previous post, even though I did not post it in the form you did. Pinky swear I will

Also I do not think gm criticized your approach as crude at all. Rather I think he meant he preferred what he felt was a "cruder" form of notation where EVERY note is included, but at the cost of making the phrase awkward to sing in swaras. As far as I understood you did not want that.

That R,PM, R,,,(S) where the RSRS issue cropped up or that p,RS, R,,, where the R2 was played almost like (SMRM R,,), I probably would not write down EVERY note because that makes the phrase awkward for me to sing. Instead I might add a note as to how that phrase was played, but I also will write it only as p,RS,R,,, only. Again we violinists need to pay attention to these fine details as it is necessary for us to be sure of what we are playing before we actually do (and in a concert there's almost no time for that). So if we interpret a phrase in another manner, we will put it up and say, "I may notate like this because this works for me".

I'll get back after today. I have a document to submit, and by asap I mean yesterday!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 01 Aug 2015, 09:50

[quote="SrinathK]

Again we violinists need to pay attention to these fine details as it is necessary for us to be sure of what we are playing before we actually do (and in a concert there's almost no time for that). So if we interpret a phrase in another manner, we will put it up and say, "I may notate like this because this works for me".

[/quote]

Srinath , you are right here. This is what I wanted to convey and the reason to explain that swara works different for different people. Recently I had been to visit my friend in Lucknow and during a family get-together, there was a girl singing ( well trained and clear notes) and I was automatically thrusted with a vio to play along. Having not touched the vio for many months it was hard for me for sometime getting the strings to tune as it was a not my vio, and the rest of the 20 min just to follow what she sang.

A couple of days later, someone asked me what the raaga was and I on jogging my memory hard I had no idea nor even on the notes or pattern or notes. All that I could remember was she was singing in 6 kattai ( because I tuned the instrument I remember) , some bhajan with a long viruttam like sloga in the beginning.
This happens to any violinist after a while or a few years. You don't have to be special , it will happen to all ( i mean all). I always think that if I could do something anyone could do . All that you hear is some form of sound that you have to follow.

Now coming back to the swara deciphering , with the way you want us to do we are doing it raaga appreciation and not note appreciation and this is what I mean by a preconceived carnatic year. In that Jantai mpm ,it is note / and writing it as only M and understanding it as madhyamavathi M with a jantai is raaga appreciation. We have to make clear on this before we proceed. I guess VK and even the topic meant notes as they are. I am open to both , wothout any FRUSTRATION , IRRITATION .
PROUDLY, COOL AS A CUCUMBER. You can also say sorana ketta...

. VK , hope that is not a bad word in your dictionary

To meet both the conditions - raaga appreciation and note knowledge , I think the notation system I refer could come handy. Pls respond to my mails.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 01 Aug 2015, 09:56

Thanks, Srinath, look forward to your swaras, take your time.

May be there was something not fully clear with "crude", but it hardly matters now.. I never lost sight of the fact that GM was friendly and didn't mean to be rude. Never thought that for a second.

I've removed that long explanatory post.

I think he meant he preferred what he felt was a "cruder" form of notation where EVERY note is included, but at the cost of making the phrase awkward to sing in swaras. As far as I understood you did not want that!

Oh it's not about what I want, I just don't agree with that in this case. It's just that don't want a critique of what I wrote to be made by that yardstick, because I am not taking that approach and I specified that. I wanted it to be GM's own swaras, with the approach stated. That way it is 2 different versions and we can just disagree and both versions can stand.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 01 Aug 2015, 10:16

In art and music, it takes some time to get used to the fact that it is not 100% objective and never will -- there is a subjective component of perception that is entirely real and is as much a co-creater of the total musical experience as the composer and the artist -- as opposed to objective physical phenomena that are experienced as the same by everybody.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 01 Aug 2015, 11:04

SrinathK wrote:In art and music, it takes some time to get used to the fact that it is not 100% objective and never will -- there is a subjective component of perception that is entirely real and is as much a co-creater of the total musical experience as the composer and the artist -- as opposed to objective physical phenomena that are experienced as the same by everybody.

LOLOLOLOL

That has two interpretations. 1. Laughing out loud 2. Laughing out loud ( Louder and hope nobody notices by ignorance..louder , louder. )

I do the second most of the times.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 01 Aug 2015, 19:47

Here's my transcription then, 1st 1:00 of the video

0:03-0:09 : R , , , , S - R,PM R , S , , -- that R,PM is more like R,MPM,
0:09-0:16 : S, (M) RS , n, p - p, RS - MMR , , -- There's a jharu on the opening S. Swaras in the brackets should not be pronounced while singing as they are incidental. But it shows that anuswaram was hit

0:16-0:19 : R, R, SRS - (n)p , ,
0:19-0:22 : (p)R,, S (n)p , ,
0:22-0:25 : (p)R, S R, - n S R, (M) RS - n p , ,
0:25-0:30 : p (n) npm,, p, n, S, R, S, R,PM R, S, (a vigorous double oscillation of the R in R,PM)

0:30-0:36 : R, M, M, - MPPM R S n, - R R P M R, S
0:36-0:41 : R, P, MPMR, M, P, , , -- (The R-P is a slide so interpretation may differ here. M P M R is played like MPMP MR)
0:41-0:46 : P, M R, S (n)p, n, S R M PNP,M R S (there is a big kampita on that n in p, n, S R M)
0:46-0:49 : R P M P M R , , - (Slide between R and P, truncated M1)
0:49-0:52 : P M P, MP M R - (R) S ,
0:52-0:56 : P M P , , R - R M PNPN PM R - S , (Long slide between P, , R)
0:56-1:02 : R P MPMR, M P - P (N) NPM, P, N(S) N, (n)P , (the manner of glancing at the upper S in N(S) here is called chyuta shadjamam. Oscillation on the N followed by slide to P in that last "N, (n)P ," )

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 01 Aug 2015, 21:57

Thanks Srinath , but did you get my mail?

and you too VK ?!

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 01 Aug 2015, 22:30

<shakes head> What mail?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Aug 2015, 23:16

I did not get your email either

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 02 Aug 2015, 00:01

@vk, I've got an idea after gm's suggestion. I split one raga or swara essays into small parts mp3s, put them in a rar file and use that for practice material. For consistency, it is essentially that one rar is in only one raga and comes from one recording. Though this will never match the productivity of a home practice session or a music class (where you can get so many phrases out in half an hour), it's worth a shot.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 02 Aug 2015, 02:35

SrinathK wrote:Here's my transcription then, 1st 1:00 of the video

0:03-0:09 : R , , , , S - R,PM R , S , , -- that R,PM is more like R,MPM,
0:09-0:16 : S, (M) RS , n, p - p, RS - MMR , , -- There's a jharu on the opening S. Swaras in the brackets should not be pronounced while singing as they are incidental. But it shows that anuswaram was hit

0:16-0:19 : R, R, SRS - (n)p , ,
0:19-0:22 : (p)R,, S (n)p , ,
0:22-0:25 : (p)R, S R, - n S R, (M) RS - n p , ,
0:25-0:30 : p (n) npm,, p, n, S, R, S, R,PM R, S, (a vigorous double oscillation of the R in R,PM)

0:30-0:36 : R, M, M, - MPPM R S n, - R R P M R, S
0:36-0:41 : R, P, MPMR, M, P, , , -- (The R-P is a slide so interpretation may differ here. M P M R is played like MPMP MR)
0:41-0:46 : P, M R, S (n)p, n, S R M PNP,M R S (there is a big kampita on that n in p, n, S R M)
0:46-0:49 : R P M P M R , , - (Slide between R and P, truncated M1)
0:49-0:52 : P M P, MP M R - (R) S ,
0:52-0:56 : P M P , , R - R M PNPN PM R - S , (Long slide between P, , R)
0:56-1:02 : R P MPMR, M P - P (N) NPM, P, N(S) N, (n)P , (the manner of glancing at the upper S in N(S) here is called chyuta shadjamam. Oscillation on the N followed by slide to P in that last "N, (n)P ," )

Your transcription is much more detailed than mine and it's really good. I find you consistently going a little higher than me - in the sense that where I tend to think -for example- that it is RM-R, with a janta- like oscillation on the ma, you say it is rmpmr as does GM and that difference is consistent through out.

One problem that I found in my listening in the case of this video, is that once I make out a phrase it stuck in my head and I always imagined the second phrase at 07-09 to be a continuous one making it impossible to accept a pa in there.. Whereas in fact there is a clear break between the ri and the ma, making the P possible, and now I hear it, so fleetingly that it is still doubtful, and I'm 65:35 on the chances of that being correct - in your favor. So it seems you both have a finer ear.. I miss some anuswarams.

One piece of criticism: though it is much more readable than before, your transcription seems to give equal value to swaras and anuswaras. For example, at 16-19 seconds, I would have preferred R, R, SrS - (n)p , , I would find that easier to read. It also retains the difference between this type of small lettering and the bracketed small letters.

Thanks for the effort, if I think of anything I will write back.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 02 Aug 2015, 07:15

No problem @VK and @ Srinath, pls shoot a mail to ranganaaath followed by the our famous google email service or the microsoft starting with h in a hot manner. ( sometimes I think I am too smart against the spammers

). may be I should have given some hint for my id also like the hero in srirangangam ...

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 02 Aug 2015, 09:24

On the violin, an swaram must be hit by a finger to be heard, no flexing the strings like a veena, so what I term as anuswaram is in brackets. I am watching not only the sound but also the finger technique so I can also see if a note was hit or not. Also lower case letters on this editor for me mean the notes in the lower octave below S, hence a fleeting note is not quite the same as a true anuswaram on a violin.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Aug 2015, 22:03

Srinath, Ranganayaki and Vk

I have sent a mail to each of you with dropbox links. Let me know if the link and download works.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 06 Aug 2015, 00:21

They do. Thank you very much. This was precisely hitting the nail on the head @gm. Actually I wanted to talk about it here too, but I didn't want to find us all running away from this thread and never coming back within the next couple of posts. Sincere request to the other 2 also not to mention it out here.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Aug 2015, 13:44

Another question to Ranganayaki and Srinath. Just imagine you hum a song , non CM for instance.. say some bhajan where you wont always have your raga preconception, and in that case do you normally keep automatically deciphering raaga or sing note cautions while executing the song or do you just sing and feel that it automatically matches the tune. Well this is complicated, but I would like to know how your humming along or singing aloe level varies when you progress in music . How does it actually affect one.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Aug 2015, 22:28

I know you did not ask me that question but my first reaction is 'What! really. you just repeat without getting into raga or swara territory. That is the best thing about vocal at the amateur level, you do not have to know all that'. But then I realized you are asking for a good reason. Now I am also curious. As you learn vocal, do you really break it down to the swara level and then build it to the melody level in reproducing a melody that you just heard. If so, I am ready to have my mind blown. ( the question is not whether you can, I am sure you can but do you? ) I will wait for your answers.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Aug 2015, 23:17

Yes, VK, you sometime quickly get ensconced to a safe zone i.e., this is not of my level . So spared you. But would like you to try too. But all I do not understand is why do you take your flute everytime to decipher. It is not something you check note by note and click and proceed like a pitch pipe alignment. If you are trying to hit the right note at least it means you understand the range and the area , then it means you know the note sort of and then mind triggers your finger to fill the hole. So the message goes from the head to flute and not from flute to head.

Well it was a time when singing was something out of my horizon. I still remember the time early nineties when I tried to sing with my ..thandhana thathana sippi irukkudhu with my friend and record it in casette player recording. It seemed ok when I sang as it is kind of a talk and sing song. But when we heard from the record it was a whole house LOL to an amount of earthquake intensity. All I could understand was I did not go up and down , I did not understand that they were the notes. I thought you have to go a little up and down correctly and that was all. But then I always tried. Then once I asked Sanjay how should I proceed. He told me that I should try to sing whatever I play on violin before my teacher at least for half an hour daily. It did not make sense then , but makes more than the best sense now. And I did too. Well the progress and transformation in voice was , when I sing a third party song i.e film song I sing more loudly and what I realize is that your voice tends to auto adjust the notes somewhat since they are the only place your acquinted to. By place I mean frequency. And yes instead of kakali you may touch kaisiki ( and feel something slightly wrong as it did not go with the melody and try to adjust it next time to see if it fits. But the thing is you may hit kaisiki instead of kakali but but not shudha dhaivatha. But our brain reflex is so effective in this. If you had ever played table tennis you can understand that it is a fraciton of second your mind automatically tells you whethen to spin or chop or hit flat and where and the time intervel is too small for a cognitive reason but it is just reflex out of many years. Oh how much I miss Tennis and TT.

But if you ask me if I sing note by note right , definitely no . It almost gets 80 t0 90 percent perfect if you just sing off the cuff and the 10 to 20 percent is for you to make adjustment to simulate the original .That kakali kasiki like realtime confusion where you feel the melody is missing. But I don't think that anyone can sing and keep deciphering in real time. It just happens. I still remember Sanjay saying that in his whole class he was the only one unable to sing ninaithe inikkum songs at that time when the songs were super hit. This simply means you have no time to bring in your raaga and grammar but let loose your instinct and inhibition. If you want to be hundred percent perfect you have to listen to it many times like memorizing kirthis. But what helps you remember the tune is lyrics. And what makes you to make it close to original is the timing set between each note. But for any reason if i feel that a song is set in some raaga then I have a problem as it obstructs my free flow and grammar creeps in.

The one that I enjoyed again and again was Ananda raagam set in simhendramadhyamam.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Aug 2015, 23:25

Hi VK , many of these super singers can repeat a song to near perfection in terms of tonal clarity and note, but without knowing the notes. That is innate. Let your flute rest for a while. I did give rest to my fiddle for sometime to explore into this "innate".

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Aug 2015, 01:16

btw, I was not thinking of my flute in this context. ( in fact my goal is not to think about swaras even when playing my flute..but that is the end state )

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 08 Aug 2015, 09:25

vasanthakokilam wrote:btw, I was not thinking of my flute in this context. ( in fact my goal is not to think about swaras even when playing my flute..but that is the end state )

VK

It is not a big deal . It may be harder to to repeat a GNB , but to follow a song is not a big deal . If we were to shape up this context in person I could definitely get you there in 6 months without much effort as it is has to be lively. Here we are moving an inch per month that is all.

. You can try do download a song and play it half of its speed first in vlc player where it is possible. Then you will see you can . Though it kills the charm it definitely helps to get there quickly.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 08 Aug 2015, 23:32

Another question to Ranganayaki and Srinath. Just imagine you hum a song , non CM for instance.. say some bhajan where you wont always have your raga preconception, and in that case do you normally keep automatically deciphering raaga or sing note cautions while executing the song or do you just sing and feel that it automatically matches the tune. Well this is complicated, but I would like to know how your humming along or singing aloe level varies when you progress in music . How does it actually affect one.

In the beginning when I was learning I was only seeing the swaras I had learnt regardless of the phrases and playing more swaras -- even a krithi I could not see as a sahitya. When I played I was only remembering the swaras I was playing. This eventually worked against me in a vocal music class where my teacher said, "Sree, you're singing all R2s in every raga the same way. There's no difference between your KalyaaNi G3 and your Shankarabharanam G3." -- followed by a crash course in varnams and the finer raga specific prayogas.

I realized then she was absolutely spot on -- the problem went back to the time where my voice had broken and I was learning the violin at the time, with academic workload and not knowing how to handle an unruly pair of vocal cords, I had stopped singing. My vocal classes formally never went to the point where I learnt varnams vocally. Although I did do a measure of vocal in my violin classes, it wasn't that deep or very focused.

Unfortunately my course with her did not last very long as she succumbed to cancer shortly afterwards

But that's when I felt that only instrumental training had left me with a drawback in the finer understanding of the phrases (even my violin teacher at one point had suggested a vocal teacher, but at that point I simply did not have any time to spare). It is sufficient to say that SrinathK never forgets an experience like that...

It stayed in my mind for a while and I realized my listening habits were too casual and I ought to have been more analytical and observant of the devils in the details. Over time as my ability to read gamaka movements improved and improved (and it came phrase after phrase, raga after raga, recording after recording and it still improves every day), it became easy to directly mimic the dynamic swarasthana of the gamaka itself, except in superfast or very complicated phrases where I had to slow down and listen to the finer movements. I changed my approach to listening, seperating my "listening for pleasure" from "listening as a student". The raga gnyana I gained from listen to alapanas came back to help me in compositions.

Now a days I rarely need to translate -- I can get the phrase immediately. In singing I can do it directly and the swaras are just "memory waypoints". A lesser heard raga can be a problem Someone like Ahbishek or TVS or TNS, GNB or even Brinda Mukta can sometimes test my grasp beyond my limits for which I must listen more seriously. Since I am out of touch with my instrument, I do need to translate a little bit to give me a hint as to how to play the phrase and if anything I think I should once again cultivate the skill of turning phrases into swaras more easily (but now it's for other purposes).

What keeps you going through this all is that you can very visibly measure your progress and see your improvement day after day.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 09 Aug 2015, 02:53

Such wonderful, thoughtful posts, Srinath.. I really enjoy reading you.

I let the song sink in, by listening several times. Then the tune just comes out of me naturally.. but it always helps to know ragas, and that gives me conviction and my faith in myself is stronger. For difficult passages, or minute sangati variations in carnatic music, I resort to swaras

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 09 Aug 2015, 11:03

Srinath and Ranganayaki and "kosish karnevale - VK"

Well the problem is here the swaram or note per se. There used to be a time when I cannot decipher a note correctly but can be approximate of it. But then occassionally some ragaas strike a instant similarity of " I have heard before" like Reethigowla and Kaapi. So when there is a non karnatic song that has Reethi gowla or kaapi I immediately take the Raaga pattern as crutch and try to decipher with my "approximate note skill". Strictly speaking itis not note deciphering but finding notes alone but taking the help of raaga for assistance.

That is why I prefer non raaga or non carnatic based light song initially.

VK try this one. Indeed it is raaga based but may not be strictly.