Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

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vasanthakokilam
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Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

There was a discussion about the ability to recognize swaras in this thread http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24916
Let us continue the discussion in this thread.

The purpose is to discuss practical tips and tricks to obtain better swara recognition skills. Anything is good as long as they are not too academic. It has got to be fun and not a chore. This is not meant for music students but for mere rasikas who want to improve themselves in this matter. God only knows why rasikas want that skill, they can enjoy CM to the fullest without that. But some of us do. This thread is for them.

Ganesh_mourthy writes in the above thread 'members can input too with what was the turning point when they were actually turning swara gnanars.'

One thing to remember is the quality of the tricks and tips is not how sophisticated or formal or correct it is but how many rasikas actually use it with good effect.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

I need to pick up the thread to start. As we discuss let members see what transpires and chip in.

How do you think you fare in terms of light music, classical music, and western music, instrumental , vocal. Have you put effort or whatever you can so far is natural with passage of time. Let me know as I am starting my essay on how it started with me. We will see if there is any convergence point. We are not experts but trying to benefit. So I am just throwing some at you and picking some from you, and let us make it interactive than just me writing a long wishy washy something just to end here in two posts

Rsachi
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Rsachi »

Problem statement: how do you identify swaras and consequently ragas during alapana, dong etc. before the musician presents kalpana/chitteswaras.
I will give what works for me - I call it Seven Steps to Swara Samadhi:

1. Get hold of the Sa. That's generally easy within the first few seconds itself as tambura, violin/Veena, mridangam are all tuned to show Sa.
2. Watch and listen to the violinist carefully. If the ground floor and first floor are like Sa, the violinist has a midway landing called Pa
It is quite prominent. If there is no Pa rest of the steps are true still.
3. The musician will be repeating some phrases. Count the other swaras. Do you see four or six? Do you see a staggered or alternating pattern?
4. When you start this method, try and be armed with a raga wiki kind of list and try in the privacy of your home.
5. Ma is closer to Pa, Ri is closer to Sa. Ga is an important note in most ragas, and falls in between.
Dha is closer to Pa on the other side, Ni stays close to upper Sa.
6. Arrange the swaras you identified thus far. Remember there are two Mas. Which one is it, higher or lower?
7. Start making the swaras in your mind like an interpreter as you listen to the melody.
If you do this, and you're lucky, you will figure out the Arohanam, Avarohanam, and from your raga wiki, the raga name.

Rsachi
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Rsachi »

Important post edit: learn by repetition the following scales:
1.Mayamalavagowla
2. Shankarabharanam
3. Kalyani
4. Kharaharapriya
5. Mohana
6. Hamsadhwani
7. Hindola
8. Arabhi
9. Shanmukhapriya
10. Pantuvarali

This will help you in identifying the different Ris and Gas and Dhas and Nis. Download a free keyboard app and practise the scales. Also download Madurai Mani Iyer tracks in these ragas. Hear them often, while goofing off at work.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

See VK, Rsachi has given some tips already. But, does this system help with light music or finding notes only as such . Preemptively...Asking you to be appreciative, I am not finding fault with your system . I am just asking. Team work. :)

Rsachi
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Rsachi »

GM
This helps everywhere. Except that film songs rarely stick to a rigid structure and I feel identifying swaras is more fun but more useless while enjoying film songs!

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I understand that there is no ragas , but mostly scales or notes in light music. But I feel once you can instinctively make out without the help of sa pa sa and and support systems, then all becomes easy. In fact , filmy is much more easier to me as there is no is no ambiguity, all clear plain notes . In carnatic there is a lot .... . We will continue tomorrow in length. I am yet to give the due dose to VK :)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Sachi, g_m. All very good, I think we will make some headway here. g_m, take your time.

As Ganesh put it, we can learn from the anecdotes of others how they 'turned that corner' from identifying ragas as a unit to individual swaras. Misusing another analogy here 'How did you turn the corner from looking at the forest to looking at the trees'. To be clear and to stress the significance of it, let me restate that it is absolutely not necessary for a rasika to know that to enjoy CM to the fullest. In fact,it can hurt. You will start seeing the trees which can interfere with enjoying the beauty of the forest, so to say.

So there are three classes of rasikas from that perspective: Rasikas who like to listen to CM who know only songs and not ragas and like the overall pleasantness of it, the rasikas who can identify ragas and the rasikas who can identify swaras. There is a fourth class which is relatively rare which can be represented as (1, -2, 3) . That is, they know some popular songs that perk up their ear and even knows the lyrics to some extent and they can identify swaras to a reasonable degree but do not know to identify the ragas. Believe me, they exist, I know at least one. Having them around is great. For example, I am ( 1, 2, -3 ) and they are ( 1, -2, 3) and in combination you get ( 1,2,3) ( this is a different kind of math ;) '-' refers to absence of and not 'a negative of' ).

Alright, enough of my epistemological foray on the nature of rasikas!!

I will write about my personal attempts at improving the swara gyana next.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I think Sachi's technique has a lot of merit especially for an alapana.

I had written about a similar scheme which I have tried with some success.
First learn to identity the quadrants and not the swaras. There are basically 4.
1 : ( lowest P,M Or G to regular S)
2 : ( S to P )
3 : ( P to higher S )
4: ( S to high M or P )

I think it is easy to identify 1st and 4th quadrants when they are on the low side of 1 and high side of 4. The issue is when the song hovers around the boundaries. So let us solve that problem away through a re-definition of the method.

Our answers can be one of the following
A) Definitely 1
B) I or 2
C) Definitely 2
D) 2 or 3
E) Definitely 3
F) 3 or 4
G) Definitely 4

I think achieving this is a great milestone for a beginner. We can then hone our skills to get better at B, D and F.
At the end of this, let us say we achieved reasonably good quadrant identification skills.

From here how do we get to individual swaras?

The anchor swaras that separates the quadrants are indeed S and P. So a great grasp of that those two are necessary.
While a kArvai on those notes is relatively easy, a sequence not stopping at those swaras is not that easy.

But if we somehow acquire that skill, we now have two things
a) Which quadrant the note is in
b) We know if it is S or P

we can make further headway using a technique that Sachi writes about.

Is the note under consideration close to S or P?
If Q1 and Close to S it is N, If Q2 and close to S it is R, If Q3 and close to P it is M, if Q4 and close to P it is D etc.
This way we can knock off R and M and D and N and by process of elimination identify G.
We can then focus on the low and high variations of each.

As a method, this all looks logical. We have to see how well it will work towards training one self to the extent of playing a catchy film song on an instrument. Film songs are easy to tell if you are playing it correctly and to note perfection even in fast moving passages. Even if you can't tell, others will, believe me. People have amazing conception of the melody of film songs and they know even when you are slightly off. In CM, you can attribute such variations to Manodharma ;) but not with film songs.

I have tried it a bit with limited success but I have not realized my objective of playing a film song on my flute. I can play it sort of approximately but I would not dare to play it in front of someone else. If they happen to hear it when I thought I was alone, my 'samALippu' will be 'Oh, I was composing something inspired by that film song' :)

sureshvv
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by sureshvv »

I feel that tara sthayee is a good place to begin to identify swaras in raga alapanas. You may have to hum along a bit in your head.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Suresh VV

How is that tharasthayi can be the spot to start. I am keen to know.

You are right : humming along in the head is very very very very very very imp if you are struggling. That does away 80% of the problem. We have to do some aligning of our voice with notes very slowly with a keyboard or the likes. The singer may be singing in another pitch , regarless of which our mind directs us differently. Our unique brain. I raised this question in another thread but no one understood or probably took it trivial.

VK , do you hum to find notes? I used to always do in the beginning and I was 99% correct. This helps with notes and not ragas. Ragas go with several signatures, sometimes it can also be off note. ;)

sureshvv
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by sureshvv »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: How is that tharasthayi can be the spot to start. I am keen to know.
Mainly because of the motivation to check how high the artiste can sing :-) Some go up to Ga. Many up to Ma. Few go to Pa and beyond. Many times the effort is palpable.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Now I should say I am 1*,-2*,3.

The 2 with conditions means there are many new and different ones where I have to really concentrate if I have to , but I don't as I don't enjoy it .

With 3 I have no problem at all with all genres.

With 1 , I think I am not very musical at all I have to admit. Even if there is a record playing with a kharaharapriya , I would not lend my ear instinctively or even realize that it is a specific genre that I have learnt and played several times. One of my sensory nerves has to prompt , "OK just listen for some time", or someone asking me "what is this?", and then me tuning to it to understand that it is classical music and not some sound produced and then again again a few seconds to discern the raga.

To explain it further, my neighbor told me that knowing that I played the fiddle, he had raised the volume of some classical programs on TV every day in the morning so that I could savour it too. He was enthusiastic in asking " morning ketkudha paatellam, sari neengalum jannal vazhiya kepeengannu thaan sapthama vechen".

I had to quietly feel embarassed to myself " really, and daily??".. I vaguely remembered something like that once in a while. I had reluctantly acknowledge " I am usually busy those hours , so now and then .. but I enjoyed".

But would appreciate the aroma from the neighbors panneer butter masala and palak panneer. Can easily differentiate them.

Funnily though, during very busy hours of the day in the office I would turn on the music and listen to with headphone on , that irked almost all .

To me it all started some twenty years ago when I had been to my cousins house. my two niece one 10 and another 14 had just moved to Chennai from Kolkatta and they both learnt singing. So my Aunt took pride in it and always passed comments about everything music. It was at this time I had made my own list of 200 cine songs and one day she was making out the raagas of most of them. I was not convinced. How could this be possible. How can a raakamma kaiya thattu and gangai karai oram be of same melodic pattern.

But still there were some much used false notion and ideas which showed their inept with raagas , when I checked with other knowledgeable people.

Ippa ellam enna kural . Appa KBS , Kittappa ellaam 8 kattayila paaduva paaru...

Well at that point I had to understand kattai to be volume , and I had no other clue other than that.

Nobody explained me raaga properly and I had to resort to other resources rare those days.
Well then listen to many tapes said some and that did not work out too.

I remember the first raaga I could make out was a Kaapi when I heard someone sing which sounded like something I have heard. Wow that was exhilarating.

The next step was to find a teacher and learn rather than do this abstract learning. ...
But the process was disappointing as the teacher was teaching me and I was hesitant to ask him to teach me to learn raagas alone.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

It was at this time I befriended our the most liked Singer in CM probably who discouraged me a bit " Did you take up the violin . That is a very hard one. I would not have recommended that . however since you have started try to sing whatever you learn". Oh , Ok find a teacher for vocal. The point was to understand the notes and go confront my Aunt.. " see you told that all wrong" and besides and interest to learn.

But, learning to sing helped greatly to sing and align a note , but still I was struggling with finding while other sang it.

That was logic. I sang slowly note by note and I trigger the notes so I know. But it is different when someone else sang. But , the first turning point was I was able to go close .

This just was a frog leap . wow.

So first biggest tip is to sing with a keyboard slowly with a shruthi box , often mindful of the Sa Pa Sa.

I will continue.....

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Suresh VV , in higher notes until PA most people can sing alapana , but we may have to open another thread later to understand how we can mellifluously articulate the words in higher notes. With that, most singers leave me a lot to be desired...plain or gamakam . But, the Cine singers do it so so so well.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Recommending to learn to sing the notes my sound like a the usual spin " learn the music religiously and you will learn it automatically". That makes no point here.

By asking to sing the notes with keyboard , I meant just 10 min for a couple of months -the minimum essential that will bypass several futile logical reasoning to make out the notes.

( I am terrible with typo and terrible with those filler "buts' and just" thingies ", unless I take pain to... . Pls bear and keep up with me. :)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ganesh, keep going. Quite funny what your motivation for all this is :) hey, anything that brings about good things is good.
On detecting the nuances of food smell vs nuances of music, I am the same, mUkku nILam, nAkku ahalam, kAdhu kuLLam (literal translation: Long nose, wide tongue, short ear)

Back to our task...

I will try the humming technique. Phrases with many notes per beat that are overlaid with lyrics needs a lot of decoding. I can also use an app that slows down the song ten times with out changing the pitch

I think my problems are severe on one hand and hopeful on the other. On the severity part, it is one of low swara resolution, the ability to identity small changes in swaras and more shamefully, if I do not pay attention if the change is up or down. Mathematically, it is the good old spectral resolution of my brain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_resolution). If there is a jump, I have some techniques to identify them. Better if they are familiar ones like S-P or M-D. But the closer they are the more trouble it is. The limit of that is when they are the same notes! That is the case when the swaras are overlaid with lyrics, I will be searching around for that small swara variations only to find it is the same swara, R R, R R,,,. Ah, the horror! Now I check that first :)

On the hopeful part, in another thread, Suresh provided a link to the Nadaswaram rendition of the film song 'Koodamela Koodavechu'. I tried it on my flute. I did not get it right but it was encouraging nonetheless. But I did not map it to the swara level but somehow the ears and the fingers have some communication without consciously breaking it down to the constituent swaras.

You are right on one thing, I should not be sloppy on matching the Sa ( in humming or playing on the flute). That does more damage than good and it makes the task that much more difficult. Flute is more problematic since I don't keep near me flutes of many sruthis. G is my go-to flute and I can get C# by switching the S to the P position( which I personally like). And with a bit of adjustment I can bring it down to C.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK
Quickly,

It is very different , humming and practicing the instrument.

Singing , at least humming, is inherent to all. Yesterday my niece was humming ayyayyayo anandame from some Kumki and she was really good . But if you were to play that in instrument you have to convert it into notes and even with an organized training it will take forever. She was able to sing at the age of 12 ,not having learnt any music at all , and she does not have any idea about even the Sa Pa sa.

So your practicing flute does not qualify for this training. Try humming notes especially Janti esp Jantai at 100 per sec and see if your notes that you hum are aligning in freq . And make sure you can do a perfect Sa Pa Sa in vocal. I can wake up at 2 in the mornign , half asleep, and can manage with a fairly clear Sa Pa Sa at c#. And no no it is not that hard at all. Just 2 months of 10 min. Have the app with you handy and try sa pa sa any many times randomly during the day. For me it is C #. This is very fundamental forte. and esp with this app era , my friends are very comfortable with sa pa sa which laid foundation to their swara mastering. I think most people are comfortable with c#. Cine singers are mostly singing in D#. Try the hamasanandi in salangai oli ..climax song. That was the first cine song where I made out the raaga. It sounded Srinivasa thiru vengada. And then the putham pudhu poo from thalapathy. All plain notes.

Yes , your double swaram was a problem to me initially. I used to guess it as two swarams one beneath and above if esp it has differerent intensities. we will get there...

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

OK, understood. I can do S-P-S and I think my natural kattai is C# as well.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

One of our members posted this and this is excellent too. It can blow out our ego sometime. The plain ting tong could be baffling sometimes. But for this , you have no other choice but to hum at some point unless you are super swar king. Could be startling for moment until you gain grounds. YOu might have already tried it I guess if you are leaving no stones unturned.

balakk
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by balakk »

I thought (and still think) so that this is a special skill of instrumentalists. A vocal student can go up to learning varnams,krithis before they get this into their system. However for instrumentalists, it's a natural thing - it's like learning to cycle. Since they do it all the time, they somehow do it without the cognitive overload. All that's required is a reference sruthi, you start to fly. The tricky bits are things like madhyama sruthi, or some times tone shifts within a single song. I'm amazed at how violinists render madhyama sruthi songs without retuning the violin. As a dabbler in violin, that always trips me up.

anandasangeetham
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by anandasangeetham »

I understand the CRK recently demonstrated "same phrases - same swaras - different raga'...last week or so .....did anyone record that?

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

balakk it is all easy if you had a compatible strings always which professionals do.

All that one do is to consider the second string ( the open sa of middle octave ) as open paa of lower shruthi. with a little trick and compatible strings you can use the same without change for men and women choosing a flexible neutral string. But the main string becomes different. The problem if the Male singer wants to get lower than Pa and want you to align , you just have to quickly come to Sa. But this is not a good habit always to follow. there are li mitations. There are some gifted who can effortlessly do it. MSG is one. I think he played the Saveri in a single string all lower octave , middle , and higher. Imagine.

balakk
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by balakk »

Ganesh, true but you're unconsciously doing acrobatics that most don't realize! Finding swaras is hard enough for some; but in madhyama sruthi, a concert violinist automatically translates notes from one sruthi to play on an instrument tuned for another sruthi. The symmetry helps, but when all your muscle memory is tuned to play in your usual strings, it must be unnerving!
MSG is somebody we'll have to invariably draw in for discussing any violin techniques. The man practically wrote the book :)

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Balakkk

It is from my experience when I used to practice the fiddle with some recording of my choice. But, it was at a much later time. I do not play much any more. But, the note deciphering was what I was doing much earlier. I am trying to focus what all that I did then.

MSG did not write a book , but he is a book himself. Read it as many times and you would find something really new and mind blowing every time.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK , for slow playing without change in pitch, was it Audacity?

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I have done that with Audacity on the PC. It uses the old school UI that is typical of pre-mobile PCs and Macs( menus, options, click this, click that ) but quite powerful. On iOS, the user interface is typically done well. There are quite a few apps. I just downloaded one called AnyTune. I tried it on the sample song they provide and it worked very well. It has a simple UI to change the speed and the pitch independently. For our purpose, such mobile apps are the way to go.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

Long Hiatus from me.

Here is your piece of writing again from another thread..

"g_m, It looks like you are overestimating my ability to identify swaras :) One of my long standing ambitions is to play some film songs I love on the flute, let alone CM songs. Interestingly and perhaps a bit oddly, It is much easier for me to play a song I put together in a raga and tala of my choice than reproducing a song someone else plays. I am amazed every time a violinist instantly shadows a vocalist, They are operating at a level that I can not even relate to.

But as Suresh said, I am talking from a rasika perspective. But I am not sure how easy or difficult it is to gain that swara identification knowledge. What is it one can do to improve that? Speaking for myself, famous swara combinations like 'G3 M1 P, M1 G3', 'S N2 D1 P', 'S P, P M1 G3 R2 G3 M1 P,' are easier since as a chunk they form a relatable unit. Anything songer or shorter is starting to get difficult."


This is exactly what I was doing at the beginning and thought that the penny dropped but it was disappointing again to know that I could not many a times identify the swaras.

Clearly , here, you are more getting used to patterns than note, which in a way could be working other way around.

Let us go juggling with the questions too as I have not done this before but tried various methods to help my friends and at one point they were all finding it comfortable in finding notes.

Is there any particular singer you are more easy in finding notes when they sing. Even in the beginning of my task for me BMK was easy as his is more scalar pattern. Clear notes. Dont try TNS right away , you might be perplexed.

BMK mokshamu galada was all slow , clear and it was easy and soothing to listen too. That was the first song that I could notate.

Though BMK often avoids the key phrases and sometimes may sound like another raaga, it is easier still as he sings swaras very clearly.

But believe me, often in quick gamakams it is more of teasing your ear. Sa Ni2 Ni2 D2 can also be Sa Ni2 Da2 Da2 .. both can be confusing at speed and sometimes if occilated and it all matters how you have influenced your brain. I remember someone breaking down GNB pantuvarali beautifully , but when I listened to it, at many places, the notes were ambiguous. Sometimes it all depends on how you interpret and especially if you know the grammar of the raaga and gear your mind for Pantuvarali you may interpret it so , especially the small variations. Because when the gamakams are used and the notes are so close it (ambiguity) is bound to happen. You can make out this difference between Lalgudi and MSG. Lalgudi has a way of intentional simulation and make it sound like just what he wants , while MSG is precise to micro level.

So , Actual note identification is different from carnatic note identification. With no prior listening of Carnatic Music, a super sharp brain with perfect note sense can still be flabbergasted with the carnatic notes and especially when sung fast. Here one needs to understand the grammar.

One another tip that worked with my friends. I asked them to listen to Pantuvarali , Simhendra Madhyamam, and Dharmavati for sometime. In due course of time they were able to
make out clearly Da2 and Da1 difference from Pa, and Ri and r2 and G2 and G3

I am sure you can make out them.

Besides,

Can you make out the notes in this clearly at all places ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgCpkduEQ7U

GM

Rsachi
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Rsachi »

GM
sorry for speaking out of turn but the YT clip is a repeat of an old record of Yehudi Menuhin and Ravi Shankar
i can reel off all the swaras as they happen...its for me like abc. not that it is anything special...my brain is wired like that :(

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Wow, Sachi, that is quite impressive for things are to be that easy for you. You seem to be a natural decoder of music to swaras. If it is so on this, I am sure you will have much easier than I with other songs as well both classical and light.

GM, I will try but it is not going to be any easy. Only way I can think of now is along the lines you mentioned but with my flute as the helper: Get the misra pilu grammar and given things are mainly up and down the scale and I can try to play it on the flute and once I get it more or less correctly note down what I play. But that is probably not what you wanted me to try. Going by your previous posts, you want me to get the S-P-S and the grammar in my mind, hum it and find the swaras. I will see how much I can do. But it is such a pleasant song and so it will be a delightful exercise.

One thing to be sure. My real objective is not to get to swear lovel, that is only a means to an end. I want to play what I hear on my flute. Initially flat note based film or carnatic is fine. More so on film music is I can get it verified with other people how close I am to the original. It does not even have to be heavily classical based.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

I am not sure how the help of your instrument works. I play violin and I did not resort to it for notes and that was laborious. I actually hummed along quietly in my head then. Instead of playing for 30 min the flute , imagine singing 10 min and playing 20 min the flute and you can play better. The singing enhances your understanding . I think you might have tried it . It does not matter if you sing off key sometimes - your intuition will nudge.

But it would be useful to align your singing note in slower songs like light music with popular raga which has good note interval. you can try the SINGING TUTOR or the likes.

How about Inraiku Yen indha in Abhogi. That was one easy thing for me which also has swaras at some places.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qvaiwWVNWg

But , with the speed of the Piloo and if you are going to try repeat it in flute, you should be at some level already?!

we will continue...

GM

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

Do you sing ? I am not asking about your proficiency , but do you ?

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

GM, very little in terms of singing, though I have been trying to get S-G-P-S as accurately as possible. I can try to sing along to a song and then stop the song and continue something akAram in that raga but the quality trails off quickly and I have to shut up before others ask me to!!

>But , with the speed of the Piloo and if you are going to try repeat it in flute, you should be at some level already?!

'try' is the operative word and the results of course require a lot of improvement. My only data point here is that I had some success playing with MSG's bhavanutha, the first minute or so and then later on in the kalpanswaram where he plays something very folkish in Mohanam ( in the concert recording I have ) slowly before losing me completely with his fast playing. At that point, I continue to play whatever comes to me Mohanam wis while desperately trying to keep the kalapramanam and layam as close as possible to MSG.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK,

You make the same mistake I did. I know that along the way there would be swipes on our methodologies but that is welcome too. Here we are operating for a level where swara deciphering is a problem in spite of many years of listening.

S G P S . Your attempt could be little irritating if you are not able to make it right and naturally you wont, particularly if you are not learning the them religiously. I remember that in the intial days , I tried this pattern and it would seem right at one time , then the ga3 would be at ma1 and sometimes at ga2 . and again the Pa slips and the whole thing goes awry.

To come over this , all that I did was ( though some would disagree) , sing a few times everyday to a boring degree , just the lower octave checking Sa and PA several times. You could sing the whole aro - avaro in between so that you don't dissect it from the utharanga part altogether in your mind. . I found the Ma2 easier as it was just below pa. R1 easy if you can get hold of Sa . then work slowly to r2 and r2g2 combination having Sa as base. So you are just going to focus on one note only until you get that right. This just means if I want to focus on r2 , I could chose the notes Sa ri2 ma1 Pa and but sing aloud r2 at least 60% and 40% the rest until I feel I could make the distance of r2 from sa and Pa. I have listed some examples below.

1. Ma2 with the help of Pa ( this was easy for me, as well all those who tried ( actually we experimented within ourselves) )
2.ma1 with the help of Pa. You might take a while but it totally depends on how you have developed your earlier pattern. I was always going a little over Ma1 so for me it turned out Ma1+ a bit until I had to work on it.
3. r1 with the help of Sa ( this is easy ).
4.r2 with the help of Sa.
5.g2with the help of Sa and Ri2, after only good grip of Ri2. Try coming down to g2 from Pa. I was always at ga2+ initially and this was bit of a challenge at speed. I had also problem with Pa ga2 r2 g2 pa at speed and worked on the clarity slowly .
6.g3 with the help of M1
Then probably you can make your own combination phrases using these notes .
You can alter this to your intuition and your logic

Similarly you should do this for Utharaangam which is less of a combination.

Once both of these are separately done , then you could have Pa as a constant and work around it.

Later perhaps skip the Pa and sing the Pa less raagas.

Use something like a singing tutor to constantly check your notes and have some virtual keyboard handy.

So I would recommend Poorvangam for 10 days ( 20 min) with all the combinations and Utharaangam for 10 days with all the combinations. You will be amazed at your sudden control in note control. Once you have achieved this you could try Sa ri, Sa ma , sa da, sa d2, or whatever. Try it and see for yourself. This is key to next level of swara deciphering. ;)

PS . Rasikas, this is a method we are experimenting for those who do not want to learn the conventional way , yet want to build a good swara control. Those who might have learnt the music religiously and conventionally would find it silly and funny. :lol:

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Understood G_M. I will give that a try. That sounds logical

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

vk

did you see Lakshmanji's recent post in general . We should be taking lessons from that Sir Mr. hmmm Dog Sir.
:idea:

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Yeah (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y82sYIDxDoc#t=66). I was thinking the same thing. The dog should be our Guru..

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

Try simple ones to get a grip of note, be it light or classical form.

I am trying to recollect whatever I did then to get my complex out . I immensely enjoyed this adhisaya raagam from aboorva raagangal. Such a simple note with wide space in between.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

shhh. don't let anyone else hear this: https://soundcloud.com/carnatic-music-u ... ongonflute

I did not follow the entire procedure though I am working on your suggested method of doing S-P, S-R, P-M and then G

This is one of my all time favorite songs and I let it play in my mind for a good hour or so as I was doing other things. Then just started playing that on the flute. Not based on breaking it down to swara level but somehow my fingers did the approximately the right thing and then adjusted it a bit by trial and error. I do not think I got the subtleties right or it is an exact replica but it was lot of fun. ( And coming from CM, I could not resist changing it a bit here and other or have that non-plain note playing instinct creeping in ).

The problem still is one of consistency and confidence in getting any melody right. I am in a similar state to what any programmer would vouch experiencing 'I do not know why my code does not work... and a little later...I do not know why my code works now'

But on the whole, one thing is clear. Immersing myself in this pursuit itself makes this skill better even if I do not understand exactly why or how. I had experienced that with laya/tala but it is great to see the beginnings of it working for melody also.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

Dont worry . That working on notes one by one with the help of adjacent notes and then increasing the note number gradually will definitely payback. You will suddenly see that the penny drop. It is like that 3d spectograms in Ananda vigadan decades ago. You dont first believe and then you give a try and fail and then try again and you get it and that is a "wow "moment. But one of my friends still disagrees with that and says I don't see anything but lying.

I am yet to listed to the sound cloud due to slow connection . I will . curious .

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

vk

YOur soundcloud, actually I am impressed. I like your humble way of fishing for complements. Ha ha .

And with that soundcloud, I recalled this clip

you could try that piece on your flute . Actually the flute piece is nothing captivating, but the captivated madam is. Multifaceted - can sing in perfect shruthi too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_lghtjmgzU

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

G_M, you seem to have appropriate references going back decades. Impressive. I do not think I have seen that movie, it is quite refreshing to watch it.

Playing that on my flute will take a long time, though the folksy melody is something I am naturally attracted to.

Which points to the issue I mentioned above, the reliability with which I can play a melody I hear on the flute. Of course, resolving that issue for the film songs is the main objective ( phase 1 ) of the exercises in this thread.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

Thoughts? Progress? Feedbacks?

Take your own time.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

GM, I need to do it more consistently. It is more fun to mix and match the two things that you mentioned. Sing some simple melody within myself and also the 'adjacent swara' technique. Obvious as it may sound, the reason why I could not play simple melodies on the flute is because I do not have a good mental grasp/reproducibility of the melody in my head.

I have set a goal for playing the starting lines of these songs: 'Malligai', 'Ahaya pandalile, 'Jo Wada Kiya Woh', 'Chura Liya Hai Tumne Jo Dil Ko' and may be as a stretch goal 'Aaj Phir Jeene Ki Tamanna Hai'

Here is something funny and profound at the same time. I tried 'karpaga vallii nin'..it seems to be the same swara like 'pa pa pa pa.. pa pa' :)

I will report back if and when there is progress.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

It is indeed that pa pa pa . Many many songs are like that in light music. But how do you locate that it is Pa Pa Pa in the absence of a shruthi petti. To me it stood at Dha 2 when I hummed along , and then I had to let some instinct to locate it to another which I never understood how myself.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

But how do you locate that it is Pa Pa Pa in the absence of a shruthi petti. To me it stood at Dha 2 when I hummed along , and then I had to let some instinct to locate it to another which I never understood how myself.
I did not get there yet by humming. I know that is your method. Given it is Pa, I should have gotten it, but it requires that I have a good idea on my own Sa for this 'head' humming which is a challenge indeed. I just played it on the flute and it sounded right. ( though just for that portion alone, any swara would have been OK since it is correct for some Kattai ). But Pa gets nailed once you play yet another note. How my fingers knew the flute position is something I do not understand myself (which at one level is fascinating and fun and at the other level it is not good since it is not a perfectly repeatable process )

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

g_m, I posted about this interesting TED talk http://www.ted.com/talks/david_eagleman ... #t-1222888
here. http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=25230

Some of the discussion there may be relevant to this thread, especially your own personal experience in getting better at swara identification

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

Did you try the swaram quest and what is the level you could reach?

I am not leaving you :)

GM

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Yes, please don't :)

btw, when you say 'swaram quest', is that in generic terms, or you are refering to some application? Want to make sure I did not miss something.

I am still on it but still not consistently devoting time. One thing I do these days is to set the Radel Sruthi box to C# and try to sing the S R2 G3 M1 P up and down several times.

BTW, can you summarize your lesson/technique one more time? It is spread over several posts. It will be good to know for me and others to do it strictly as you say so we can evaluate the results.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Hi VK

I will summarize the whole thing.

The swaram quest is an app . One of our fellow Rasikas has introduced it in another post. It is an android app.

Singing it in various speed is good. Sa to Pa. But as you sing , once you seem to get some control , try the nokku , slide and all that. See if you can do the ri2 of charukesi or so. It is a soft Sa to ga3 to ri2 to ga3 to r2. In simple when you seem to get control of the the straight notes ( unoscillated) , then try all that the melakartha that has sa , ri2, ga3, m1, pa. So you will do the jaaru , nokku , kampitam and all. Just try you could do Pa as Pamapa i.e Pa to ma to pa . Do all these at mathyama kaala. Do these with the singing tutor software or the likes. Eyes opened first looking at the graph and then eyes closed.

Above all , focus and perseverance. Procrastinators gets nowhere. I used to be the no 1 at it. Learning through hindsight. :(

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