Swara Identification Exercises, Vocal: Post Answers Here

To teach and learn Indian classical music
arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover wrote:TMK is presenting only secondhand information when he is interpreting SSP...
:rolleyes: Let us watch our words shall we ? A couple of samples all of a sudden we are claiming we are doing a better objective analysis than TMK?

I am sorry - I am out of this discussion as of now.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks Arun! No harm meant. I was only poiting out that he has no first hand experience of litening to the way tODi was sung in days of yore. Of course he has done a good research and has brought to our attention the differences that existed in raga bhava in olden times compared to the evolutions that have taken place subsequently.

The tODi of the nAdasvara vidvaans of old were quite different and highly gamakam prone. It is quite possible that the vocalists started imitating them. Listen to GNB's majestic 'thaamatham En' or 'aananda nateshA' which is practically the tOdi of today....

I am awaiting comments on the second clip. Of course I will give time for you to 'chew the cud'.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Arun

I trust you are not upset!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Arun
You are quite right! Todi, shadjama pancama varjita prayOgam (not uncommon) with shruti bhedam on madhyama will prcisely be Hindolam! Thanks for alerting...

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I am awaiting comments on the second clip. Of course I will give time for you to 'chew the cud'.
I guess this shows that one can sing fast and still bring out the thodi gamakams.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

CML,
So, you put Arun in orbit:)
Now, he can get upset with me if he wants to!

Not really, Arun. I am always impressed by your zeal, don't forget...:)

arunk
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Post by arunk »

no problem. I just did not like the way you worded and even if not seriously aimed - to trivialize TMK and his effort. And maybe others dont feel this way - but I for one am always aware that we are *just* dabblers. At the end of any day, I know like 1% of what they know :)

BTW, I didnt think a graha-bedham was necessary for tODi to sound like hindolam. Same sruthi/graha but keep to g m d n s' (i.e. no ri and no pa). I remember some other discussion on this.

I will look at the sample later. A better sample would be a big 2-kaLai krithi.

Arun

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

I agree but sa-pa varjitam is common in todi in comparison with ri-pa varjitam. In fact GNB has used the Hindolam grahabhedam using the sa-pa varjitam which was discussed at sangitam some time back.

arasi
it is difficult to argue with Arun; he will never giveup easily!
But it is so easy to get him upset :)

VK
you have very good hearing! But do you think it is 'standrd' tODi that we are used to ?
(clue for others with not so sharp hearing like VK :)
Just slow it down (?200%) using audigy and listen !

venkatpv
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Post by venkatpv »

about SSP's Thodi being different from today's Thodi... there are a couple of points.

First, it is well known that MD composed certain kritis (like Kamalamba Samrakshatu) in the "older" version of the raga (Ananda Bhairavi) and other kritis (like Manasa Guruguha perhaps) in the more prevalent version of the same raga. Maybe he was following the same template for Thodi here? So we have Shri Subramanyo and Dakshayani... and maybe even Shri Krishnam (which is of doubtful authenticity) composed in the more prevalent Thodi. What complicates matters is that, IIRC, Kamalambike is the only kriti in Thodi that is notated in the SSP. so there's no "proof" of him composing in two different versions :( interestingly, rupamu joochi as notated in the SSP is also in that older style of thodi! and Subbarama Dikshitar's ragamalika varnam (Garavamu), sung so beautifully by Prof SRJ, has a thodi passage, which is the thodi of today. i am not sure how it is notated, though...

Second, when i listened to the two versions of Kamalambike sung by TMK, i could see why Thodi has become what it has become... you expect gamakams in certain places, and when they dont come it feels un-Thodi-like... its almost like an invisible thread running between the two Thodi's... i can feel it, but sadly cant explain it.
Last edited by venkatpv on 28 Sep 2007, 18:17, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Here is the answer to sample 4
MPRS',S',S'NR'S'NS'D, D,D,
NDN,,NS'R'M'R'S'P
PDDNP,P
MP MP PMGM,G
GMP,P PNPP PDDN,P
You can verify from the artiste's own words from
http://www.sendspace.com/file/6r3m5o
I agree it is not easy to decipher aTHANA since it does not have a well defined aro/avaro !

Congratulations to Vikram for the 100% accuracy. It will be quite nice if he can explain how he unravelled it.

Thanks venkatpv for that clarification on the tODi issue. Why should MD have two different styles of the same raga? He could have given it a slightly different name! In my view SS should have been the gold standard. However his svarajati which is almost like a lakshnana gItam is very much like modern tODi as rendered by SSI who must have learned it when he was quite young!

venkatpv
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Post by venkatpv »

"Why should MD have two different styles of the same raga?"

the same reason why he composed in Mecha Bauli, Gowri, Navaratna Vilasa, Devaranji etc... i.e. to preserve the old ragas that were dying. although Thodi and A.Bhairavi were not dying, they were assuming a different colour.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks CML. I will have to revisit Atana once I have more time. I guess the good thing with Athana which should make it easier than others is, once you get a template like this, other songs should be a bit easier to decode since it has a small set of well defined and identifiable prayogas.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

I am amazed VKS has got 100% accuracy-every bit of swara!! You sure are not a dabbler.

I can now fix mine to correct identification of the "swaras"
However I am not far in my interpretation as I perceive the sounds on the instrument -what's in a name (of the swara)? :)

Learnt quite a bit of prayogas in aThaNa

Cml, you made a mistake in the second line -it should be NDN instead of NSN

sramaswamy
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Post by sramaswamy »

arunk wrote:BTW, I didnt think a graha-bedham was necessary for tODi to sound like hindolam. Same sruthi/graha but keep to g m d n s' (i.e. no ri and no pa). I remember some other discussion on this.
Arun
Maybe this discussion?

http://punar-nava.blogspot.com/2007/02/ ... -todi.html

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks Suji! I have corrected my typo...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks sramasvamy for that informative refeerence!

arunk
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Post by arunk »

sramaswamy: Thanks - I remember reading that blog and may be it was that.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks for the blog reference. Quite useful and well done with illustrations.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Arun
That voletti Hindolam excursion (malkauns?) quite exciting. Should we look at it more critically? You can choose a right (short please!) passage for our learning experiment!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Before we move on to other exercises, can Arun or/and Suji do one thing for the Abhogi piece? Pick out the small prayogas in that clip that brings out the raga swaroopam of Abhogi and provide the timeline for it in the clip. The information is there in the consensus decoded form, but it will be good to have it mapped to the characteristic prayogas of Abhogi. The rest of the swarams will be the bridge notes that take it from one characteristic prayogas to the other.

If we want to do this for all the ragas we discuss, at the end of the exercise, we can crate a table like this. ( made up data just for filling the table )

Code: Select all

"Prayoga Sequence"     "time of occurrence     "esnips embedded url if available"
                      in the exercise clip"     

   MA PA DA SA            2:15 to 2:20          If available, one can click on it and hear just the prayoga
                                                like the Thodi blog or Arun's blog
                                                If it is too short, then it can be a bit longer but then the time of
                                                occurrence in the shortened esnips clip can be specified.
   SA GA RI GA            1:22 to 1:23

   etc.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Excellent suggestion VK!
perhaps even the same can be done for the mohanam instrumental as well!

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover, vk: Give me a day or two to look at both (abhOgi and voleti's tODi). This weekend is a very hectic one.

But this does take time and effort though. For the ragas in my blog, I had to sort of listen to many songs and renditions in that raga (as i dont know all the prayogas beforehand).

Will esnips url work here?

Arun

PS: You know it kind of strokes my ego to see comments on the blog ;) . But seriously - some feedback good or bad always helps - i do see hits from rasikas.org but very very few comments

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun, I have not been to your blog in a while but i will go there and will sure add a comment if I have something to say at that time. That will be my pleasure.

With respect to this table, it does not have to be exhaustive and complete, initially you can just work with the Abhogi clip we studied. Since you already decoded, you can arrange it the reverse way: Prayogas to the timeline. I am not sure if esnips will work here but worth a try. But I found the esnips links in that thodi blog to be very unreliable and at best very slow. But it was OK at your blog.

CML, the short clip you posted, it sounds like Madhuvanthi. I will try to match it with swaras later on. That is the first thing that came to my mind so I will go with that. But given the short clip, let me put down another raga which I have felt have closeness to Madhuvanti: Sumanesa Ranjani. And by another stretch to samudrapriya and madhukauns..( with which I do not have much acquaintance )

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK
Do you smell pratimadhyamam in the neighbourhood :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

yes, of course ;) Does not mean it is right. May be I am latching on to the wrong sa. Anyway, the swaras I can come up for this clip is : SA GA2 SA GA2 MA2 PA.... And this is how it come out for me: http://www.sendspace.com/file/8d089h (It is quite frustrating that small clips are also hard to replicate correctly.)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Lovely attempt VK! Your clip is 7secs while the original is 4secs. Hence you are off on timings of your notes. I myself find that I could never keep time with solfa notes except when I use the akaara which glide easisly. Good that you retrieved your flute from the attic :)

A single note means nothing. We need at least five notes to get a phrase. If the phrase itslf gives so much trouble how can we cross the jumble of long passages :) One must learn the alphabet, then words and then graduate to sentences. We are still in kindergarten :)

arasi
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Post by arasi »

In that case, I am not born yet! I would call this an 'ear teaser' quiz!

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

http://www.sendspace.com/file/se25sl

Here's my answer.
CML , do post more phrases

VK good attempt....polish the gamakas

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

I meant us 'dabblers'! Perhaps you could teach us a thing or two arising from experience!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji Ram wrote:http://www.sendspace.com/file/se25sl

Here's my answer.
CML , do post more phrases

VK good attempt....polish the gamakas
Wow, nice Suji. I know mine did not quite sound like the vocal and I was not sure if it is due to swaras being wrong or the gamakas. I will learn the swaras and gamakas from you. After listening to yours, I am more convinced that it is madhuvanthi. But I am not sure if CML is messing with us or not ;)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

WOW!
Now we have answers 'speaking' through skilful hands. So let me also post the ANSWER in the same style.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/g46aih
You can play this MID file in windows media player (keep volume high). The notes can be shown in the 'piano roll' view if you have any MIDI software.
VK is almost right! But due to the gamakas and nokku notating is difficult (till Arun invents a 'script' for us). Also it is plain shuddha and not pratimadhyamam which makes the raga 'karnataka devgandhari'

Congrats folks! and
arasi
did you get it right away?

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Both your answers prove
the hand can learn faster than the mind
and also the need for versatility with one of the instruments to learn CM (even if you want to be a vocalist !)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, thanks for that MIDI file. I do not have a MIDI software other than Windows media player which played it just fine but did not display the notes. Can you post the notes that you coded into it?

There is still an issue for me to resolve. Now, I grant you that what I played does not sound similar to the vocal but I am playing pratimadhyamam. I wonder what Suji played. It sounded like PM and sounded similar to the vocal. I am a bit familiar with Karnataka Devagandari but not a lot ( which goes by 'like Abheri but not quite so', ;) , eppadi pAdinaro being my prototype ) but I did not sense it right away. For some reason, I have latched on to the PM and can not let it go. I am pretty sure Arasi got it right on the first listen.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Yes, I did, and I thought I was wrong and later took the road to madhuvanthi!
Instinct is the best route to take, I think--may be that's all I have, even if it is nothing much to write home about!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Here you go
S(GG)S(GS)S-GMP,,P
I just don't know how to indicate the gamakam on the gandharam! Some of the notes are too fast and they simply slur while singing. Also the kampita gamakam characteristic of CM cannot be properly represented in MIDI without using fast 'pitch bend' which is quite awkward. But Arun's experimental software would do it very nicely (though I have not used it!).

Though the madhyamam is a bit dicy I thought the gamakam on the gaandharam will discriminate from madhuvanti. I rather expected bimplas as an answer which would fit too!

I knew arasi will get it from gut feeling and will not opt for madhuvanti !

Where is Arun and Vikram ?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover - as I indicated I have been very busy (and still am - just a tiny window - i see I am missing out on some fun).

I did listen to the sample - the ma did sound like M1 to me - although it was not exactly at the ideal sthanam. I did not listen to all the answers, but if I am not mistaken - suji seemed to play it in M2

To my ears it seemed like
S /GS (P)M* PM/P

The second swara has a touch of pa at the beginning and slides down to ma. This is the ma indicated above.

Also as per raga, this could be suddha-dhanyasi too. I think that SGS would technically be allowed in devagandhari (and even abhEri with d1), although may be it would grs rather than gs there.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Ok , I just played what I was listening to.
I wasn't making a conscious effort in playing M2 which would sound slightly different.
But the glides make it sound like that. May be I was playing somewhere between F and F# ;)

As for the raga I couldn't really make up my mind. That's why I asked CML to post more phrases so we get the depth of the raga. For me a few stretches of phrases does help in identifying raga. One phrase can get me only to identify what swaras it has-which can be common to more that one raga ??

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

OK, I feel a bit better that it was not just me who did not hear a clean M1.

CML, do post another couple of minutes. The ambiguity in Ma is causing unnecesary confusion. Hopefully the subsequent phrases will settle down to resolve the ambiguity.

Also, is her sruthi in 5 Kattai and the ending note 'Pa'? If those are not right, I have bigger things to worry about ;) since that is what I was going by. With those assumptions, I tried to play M1 and it does not sound similar to what she is singing..

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

vasanthakokilam wrote:OK, I feel a bit better that it was not just me who did not hear a clean M1.

With those assumptions, I tried to play M1 and it does not sound similar to what she is singing..
Very true!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

You are right on! She is at 5 kaTTai and the ending note though fading is Pa.

I will try to extract a longer stretch later simply for information (not for analyis :)

Arun
No problem! Just missing you! I agree it can be suddha danyasi too!
The Ma is indeed slightly higher and VK as well as Suji were not entirely wrong inplaying it as such. But clearly it is not madhuvanti where the notes are more flat!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks CML. Looking forward to the informational extensions to the piece...

Could you also please post the exact frequencies that your spectrum analysis program shows?

I do not know what kind of gamakam is allowed for madhuvanti, it just sounded like that to me on gut feel, so I will grant you that, no problem. But is her Ma allowed for karnataka devagandari? No matter how many times I listen, I can not latch on to that family of ragas ( KD, SD, Abheri or Bhimplas ). May be I am a prisoner to that first gut feel ;) Your further extractions will I am sure put me at ease and comfort with KD.

Sorry Arasi to make you doubt your gut feel ;)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Here is a longer stretch of the piece which may help. I do not have the complete aalaap since these are teaching pieces.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wrmamz

I will try to post my spectrum analysis graphically.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

cml,
the last note in your midi file doesn't really go with what has been sung.
The voice is more smooth and not so much of gamakams as indicated by the swaras you wrote.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

cmlover wrote:Here is a longer stretch of the piece which may help. I do not have the complete aalaap since these are teaching pieces.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wrmamz

I will try to post my spectrum analysis graphically.
now this sounds bhimpalas...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Here it is
Image
The scale measures 196Hz at about 1 sec which is the aadhara shadjam which translates exactly to 5 kaTTai.
The madhyamam which occurs at about 2.35 secs is 264 Hz which is precisely the shuddha madhyamam (calculated value is 262 Hz).

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Suji
I do not have the actual svaras of the artiste. You are right, the artiste is much smoother. But the MIDI which cannot capture gamakas has hiccoughs :)

I never learned to distinguish between abheri, karnataka devagandhari, bimplas etc., But this certainly is not consistent with madhuvanti :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks CML for the bits and bytes ;) Now with the extended piece, it is definitely in the SD, KD, Bimplas family, so we wil leave it at that. I will take your word for the frequency numbers and go along with suddha madhyamam. That is very close to the actual number. But the mystery remains for me as to what makes it sound a bit different in the first 2.5 seconds. But your analysis shows it is very close to the theoretical value. Arun who pegged it as SM thought it may not be quite the theoretical swarasthana, so he also heard something more than the your two data points. I am currently hanging it on the gamakam ;) I will look at the spectrum later on to tease out any other clues.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

I tried now playing with pure M1 and it is fine with rest of the byte..

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK
As you may notice from the graph, there is nokku at that region which will interfere with the frequency and our ears are sensitive to it!
Of course only Arun is capable of a fine toothcomb analysis!
Suji
Pl post your latest effort!

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

http://www.sendspace.com/file/4522oc

Here' my byte.
The violin is a bit under the weather

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