Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

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Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

To me it is like cakravAkam scale with different skips in aro/ava
I don't think you can even play it. You will have to linger in ascending phrase with no where to go and vice verse

ramakriya
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Post by ramakriya »

arunk wrote:A little quiz. I have this contrived scale:

s R1 M1 N2 S
S d2 P G3 s

1. What is "special" about this scale?
2. I am not 100% sure about this: (This sort of follows from answer to 1 above), there is a "problem" in constructing (cm type) melodies with this scale. What is it?

Arun
Nothing wrong :cool:


You just gave two brand new scales to Sri BMK :P if he has not tried them out! Particularly the avarOhaNa ( if has the same ArOha s G3 p D2 s) is very workable, except for the resemblance to Mohana. May be it can be named as mOhanamuraLi :)

p.s: Just for little fun- I have the utmost respect for Sri BMK, as some of the rasikas here may know.

-Ramakriya
Last edited by ramakriya on 02 Nov 2007, 22:53, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover wrote:1. There is no overlap between ar/avaro other than the shadjam.
There are wild swings from madhyama to taara scales
aargh - I made typos for stayis! I guess no matter what the scheme is, we are mistake prone. Sorry.

I meant

s r1 m1 n2 S
S d2 p g3 s

No wild swings. There is one large swing from m1 to n2, but they are harmonically related and this type of a transition occurs in many popular ragas (rItigowla, nATAkurinji)

But I still think there is a "problem".

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 02 Nov 2007, 23:44, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Hint:

1. Try to start traversing up - and then see where you can traverse down
2. Try the reverse. Start to go down - and then try to find a place to go up.

Arun

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

arunk wrote:Hint:

1. Try to start traversing up - and then see where you can traverse down
2. Try the reverse. Start to go down - and then try to find a place to go up.

Arun
I couldn't do that. That' what I was implying in my post.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

yes suji. I missed that sorry :)

I think anywhere you start (other than sa) you have to head to the next sa in that direction before turning around. So any melody in this scale would simply be a run up and down the scale.

Am I right?

Arun

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

this is what is playable but under some constraints
SRMNS'
S'DPGS
RMNS'R'
G'S'DPG
MNS'R'M'
P'G'S'DPGS

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun, Is that really a rule that is followed? Meaning, you can only turn back on a common swara between aro/ava? I know you mentioned that yesterday but I thought you yourself found exceptions. May be I did not quite follow.

I would intutively think a karvai and a pause on one note is enough to change directions. Aren't there such discontinous flows in songs?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vk - I believe it is a rule in krithis - but i cannot bet for sure on it. I would like to proven wrong. Like I said, if a clear disjoint is established it should not spoil the raga mood, but I think such disjoints are NOT present in cm krithis. (Again not ready to bet :)) The end of any stanza always ties back to pallavi. End of pallavi - is "compatible" with anupallavi and charanam. These brige-overs I think would follow the rule.

Btw, I did not find exceptions. Only from sa (being tonic) you go either way (and janaranjini does allow sns - i checked SS's krithi's notation).

So in suji's example above some would be disallowed (R'G' GM, MP).
Last edited by arunk on 03 Nov 2007, 00:32, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Arun for the clarification...We are on the same page now.

How about this: s r m,,,,< pause> s d' p'

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

I thought that 'thaaTTu' svara prayOgam (fully allowed in CM) always permits jump to any svara, except that the jump must be harmonically related so that it is not unmusical!

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover, they are allowed only from swaras that allow movement in the direction of the jump.

For example, in a raga with arohana like s r m p d S/S d p m g r s, you can do s g r m but then cannot follow with g p i.e. s g r m g p would be disallowed.

Also jumps need not be harmonically related although jumps between harmonically related ones are (obviously) more common. For example I learnt a piece in vasanta (my teached called in swara-pallavi), which uses m-n i.e. m1-n3 this is a spacing of s-m2 - not harmonic (unlike s-m1 or s-p).

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 03 Nov 2007, 05:57, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Thanks Arun for the clarification...We are on the same page now.

How about this: s r m,,,,< pause> s d' p'
I guess these things may be subjective. If it is within a stanza - then I think in general this would not be kosher. If a stanza ends in ma, and then a good pase and then you start with (lower) sa, maybe.

But you see that is the problem in this scale. Anytime you want to change directions other than at sa (or lower/higher allowed in swara in that direction i.e. you can do S d p g n' s r, need not always change direction at s), you must give a substantial pause. That itself is going to cause discontinuity. Either that or you must reach atleast the end of the octave in that direction.

Arun

arunk
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Post by arunk »

duh! I suddenly realized there is more scope and I was just being plain dumb

In the raga s r m n S / S d p g s, one can do something r-g-r-m-p-m-n-S. Each transition here is allowed by the scale. The important, basic thing that completely skipped my mind is that from ri, one need not be mandated to ma (and thus to ni) i.e. what is in the arohana. The arohana does not imply order of notes in ascent (except in vakra stuff) - it simply indicates from which notes one can desend. So from ri one can ascend, and one can ascend to ga or ma etc. If ascending to ga, after that one must of course desend - but that can be to ri, sa, or ni' etc.

This is what cmlover implied above - one can indeed ascend TO any swara (albeit nearbvy ones are generally what is done except for some wide jumps). My mind was simply only focused when whether one can ascend FROM a swara. In other words, I was only looking at the starting swara. Boy do I feel like an idiot :).

So the melodies in the scale wont be simple walk up and down the scale as I had thought


Arun
Last edited by arunk on 03 Nov 2007, 07:31, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Some allowed snippets (dont know their musical value)

m-d-p
m-d-p-m-n-S
S-n-S or s-n'-s
S-d-m-n-S
p-m-d-p
s-r-g-r-g-s
n'-s-r-g-r-g-s

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 03 Nov 2007, 07:37, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Arun
For example, in a raga with arohana like s r m p d S/S d p m g r s, you can do s g r m but then cannot follow with g p i.e. s g r m g p would be disallowed.
Here starting from s you can go to mantra avarohana svaras or arohana. Hence sg will be illegal according to your arohana. You can have Sg if that is what you meant!
Now Sgrmg is a perfectly legal complete phrase. You can now start a new phrase starting with p . Whence Sgrmg p will be quite all right with the vishraanti!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

I am getting ready with my half-baked experiment with vasanthakokiladhvani. Here is the first composition.

Ragam vasanthakOkiladhvani

Lyric

P: gaNapatiyE sharaNaM
AruL purivAy dinamE- ma^NgaLa

AP: vidhi mAdhavan thozhum vinAyakanE
gadi nI allaal vERevarE

C: (durita kaalam with citta svaram)
Vasantha kOkila innisai chuvai nee thaa
Akila ulagil unatharuLal pugazhum maruviDumE

I have notated it and have it sung through computer. Here is the audio
http://www.mediafire.com/?cz2m00f1kh2

Alternate location: http://www.sendspace.com/file/mlkirn

Of course it sounds different from any raga we know (maybe slight resemblance to Hamsadhvani ? since it is HK janya). Because of the 'high jumps' very difficult to sing. I could not attempt it since my voice breaks down :)
Though from conventional CM perpective it may sound 'exotic' I am sure it can find a place in the repertoire as it does not violate any rules. It may sound much better with nice instruments though the western instruments provided under MIDI are very inadequate.

Comments please...

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover wrote:Hence sg will be illegal according to your arohana.
No cmlover. This is the common misconception - somehow very tempting for all of us to fall (as I fell for again here inspite of knowing about it ;)). Arohana except in cases of vakra does NOT determine ORDER of ascent. It simply says from what swaras you can ascend. So s r m n s, does NOT say you must ascend only as "s r" - it simply says you can ascend from sa, ri, ma, and ni. So s-g would be admissible (but not ideal) as you can ascend but sa. Only that you cannot do neither s-g-m but can do s-g-r-m (or s-g-s)

For example in sAveri you gave s-r-m-p-d-S and S-n-d-p-m-g-r-s, but even in varnam you have s-g-r-s (3rd chittaswaram). You also have a few occurences of d-G-r-s

Arun

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Arun
This is just ridiculous. I agree with you on saveri where we have srg mpd nSR are all used. By putting them in squence you get srgmpdnSR which totally violates the arohana of the raga itself. There are no proscriptions on contiguous raga phrases!
Pl clarify...

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover - pl. read my post again. I did not say s-r-g-m is allowed in sAveri. I only said that s-g is NOT disallowed (in sAveri as well as our s r m n S/S d p g s)

s-r-g-m (or s-g-m) is disallowed. Why? Because g-m is disallowed (as g is only in avaroha => you can only descend from ga). But more importantly, not because says it is s-r-m in arohana


Both s-g and s-r-g are very much allowed but only as long as you descend from g. That is why you have s-r-g-r and s-g-r and d-g-r etc. (s-g-r also occurs in muktayi for the varnam).

This is not unique to sAveri. Take durbAr varnam (ga only in avarohanam), you will find n-G. Take kAmbhOji (ni only in avarohana), in the Adi tala varnam, you will find m-n, p-n and d-n

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 03 Nov 2007, 21:03, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

So let me summarize the rule.
If you land on any svara occurring only in arohana you are permitted to ascend to any note in ascent occurring in either aro or avaro. You are always permitted to descend to any note occurring in the avaro.
On the other hand if you are on a note occurring only in the avaro then you are permitted to descend ( not ascend to any note in aro or avaro!

Is this not discrimination?

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

As I let the fascinating Aro/Ava discussion sink in ( CML, I do not think Arun implied any Asymmetrical rule except he happened to discuss the Arohana cases ) ............. CML I can not download your recording. Mediafire says 'your download is starting' but jus hangs there. Please look into it, or upload to another site. Thanks.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Yes, CML, I have tried too...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »


cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK
If that is true when he claims 'sg' is admissible though g is not in the arohana, he states gm is not admissible since g is not in arohana and that you can only descend from g since it is only in the avarohana!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

cmlover wrote:Here you go
http://www.sendspace.com/file/mlkirn
:cool: Very nice CML. Sounds quite nice and is very pleasant. That transition to Charana fast paced swaras provide for the variety and is quite catchy. I will listen to it some more.

Your constructions are great illustrations of what I wrote before. The same characteristic phrase cast in various rhythmic combinations sound very different and seems like a fundademental construction tool/technique used by all the composers. ( obvious observation probably ). Your sequences, as I was playing along with it, gave me a few more ideas for constructing melody lines for this raga.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover wrote:So let me summarize the rule.
If you land on any svara occurring only in arohana you are permitted to ascend to any note in ascent occurring in either aro or avaro. You are always permitted to descend to any note occurring in the avaro.
On the other hand if you are on a note occurring only in the avaro then you are permitted to descend ( not ascend to any note in aro or avaro!
Is this not discrimination?
If you land on any svara occurring only in arohana you are permitted to ascend to any note in ascent occurring in either aro or avaro.
Yes. But in practice, the neighbouring note in arohana would be most common.

You are always permitted to descend to any note occurring in the avaro.
FROM the same above swara occuring only in arohana? No - you cannot descend period.

On the other hand if you are on a note occurring only in the avaro then you are permitted to descend not ascend to any note in aro or avaro!
Yes. This is just similar to a note occuring only in arohana - the only difference is here you descend and there you ascend. Also, similar to above, from such a swara you cannot ascend period.

A simpler way to look at this (consider non-vakra scales only for now).
From any swara, you can ascend if it is in the arohana.
From any swara, you can descend if it is in the avarohana.

In other words, focus on the transition *from* the swara, NOT the transition *to* the swara.

Consider s-g-r-s for in sAvEri. There are three transitions and you are
1. ascending FROM sa
2. descending FROM ga.
3. desdending FROM ri.

So you ask
1. Ascending from sa. Is sa in arohana ;) ?
2. Descending from ga. Is ga in avarohana?
3. Descending from ri. Is ri in avarohana?

The answer is true for all three and so allowed.

Consider the same s-g-r-s for our raga s-r-m-n-S/S-d-p-g-s.
1. Ascending from sa: Is sa in arohana? Of course yes
2. Descending from ga: Is ga in avarohana? Yes.
3. Desending from ri. Is ri in avarohana? NO.

So s-g-r-s is disallowed for our raga.

But s-g-s would be allowed although probably "not common" (as swara skipping as is done in s-g while allowed need to be used judiciously in cm).

Consider these:
Is d-n-d allowed or not in kambhOji/bilahari? Why?
Is d-n-R-s allowed or not in kAmbhOji/bilahari? Why?
Is S-n-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri (s-g-m-d-n-S/S-n-p-m-g-s)? Why?
Is n-d-p-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri? Why?

If you apply the above procedure, and you will arrive at the right answer for each case.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 06 Nov 2007, 22:31, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

CML,
That is indeed great sounding piece.
After VK's initial composition, listening to this was like sitting in a concert and exclaming- ah! I recognize!- that's vasantakokiladhwani!!!!

I am still working on mine.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 04 Nov 2007, 00:31, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

arun,
nice explanation- but taking time to digest. So this rule should also apply to vasantakokiladhwani too.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

no suji - vasantakokiladhwani is vakra. But it should apply for the "non-vakra" portions.

I have not given enough thought but vakra does determine order. In SrIraga e.g. m-g is disallowed. It must be m-r-g (and r following it - why? because must descend from ga). But by above procedure, ma is in avarohana so both m-g and m-r should be allowed. The difference is the vakra avarohana which says m-r-g-r-s. Thus above procedure should not be used for vakra ragas in particular for the portion that is the vakra part.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 04 Nov 2007, 00:45, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

But it should apply for the "non-vakra" portions.
yes, got it!

arasi
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Post by arasi »

CML,
Great job. Vasantakokiladhvani is gaining stature. What I like most about it that it lives up to its name. It IS an ode to the bird, in the manner of garudhvani. I do not mean in sounds alone but going along with the personality of the bird too. Spotting a garuDA is a dramatic occurence and you mostly see the bird soaring high in the skies. Though I haven't heard the bird, the rAgA seems to suit the bird's sound--distant and urgent (in the manner of getting swiftly to save gajEndrA!).
As for VKdhvani, the best part of it for me is the sweet notes which you seem to hear from close quarters. Though the cuckoo sings only in spring, you hear him (mrs or not!) nearby, outside the window on a low branch of the mango tree. The technical stuff from you pros is mind boggling. It was the charm of the melody that captured my imagination.
Interesting, VK mentioned the inspiration point as listening to Mali's piece and it sounds just as though Mali ventured into a village, settled on a haystack and blew away on his flute to the delight of the village children...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks Arun
That was a mega explanation but done clearly. I was thinking only in terms of nonvakra ragas only. Of course vakra ragas have to display the vakraness and hence are complicated. Is there any manual where these rules are explained (with the exceptions for specific ragas ?). If not you should write one !

Suji/Arasi

I enjoyed playing with VKdhvani. I noticed that the sharp jumpover to Ri from pa ia almost like a 'vikkal' (hiccough) which gives it a special colour and we may even abbreviate and call it VKKLdhvani :) In addition to hallo'een it will come handy for the horror movies! I am waiting to see what Suji comes up with. By the by your waxing poetical is bringing pleasant memories of sighting Garuda during childhood!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK
Work on the melody lines for VKKLdhvani. Have some water (not Vodka :) handy!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Consider these:
1) Is d-n-d allowed or not in kambhOji/bilahari? Why?
2) Is d-n-R-s allowed or not in kAmbhOji/bilahari? Why?
3) Is S-n-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri (s-g-m-d-n-S/S-n-p-m-g-s)? Why?
4) Is n-d-p-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri? Why?
Let me work these for practise.

Kambhoji

(Using old notation in aro/ava for clarity when there is no confusion.)

Aa: S R2 G3 M1 P D2 S
Av: S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

Bilahari:
Aa: S R2 G3 P D2 S
Av: S N3 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

Bahudari:

Aa:S G M D N S
Av: S N P M G S


1) d-n-d
Kambhoji. d-n, d is in Aro., n-d, n is in Ava. So allowed.
Bilahari, d-n, d in Aro, n-d, n is in Ava, So allowed

2) d-n-R-S

Kambhoji. d-n is ok, n-R, n is not in Aro so not allowed
Bilahari. d-n is ok. n-R, n is not in Aro, so not allowed

3) S-n-d-n
bahudari: S-n is ok, n-d is OK since n is in ava, d-n is ok since d is in Aro - allowed

4) n-d-p-d-n
bahudari: n-d is ok since n is in Ava, d-p is not Ok since d is not in the Ava - not allowed

Is this correct? Nice workable algorithm..

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Here's my first composition- half way pUrvanga

http://www.sendspace.com/file/kczlgn

VarNam- vasantakOkiladhwaNi
Adi tAlam

Pallavi

G , R~ , |N`~ , S , |R N` S G | R~, N` S|

S S G R |N` S S P`|G` P` P` G` | P` P` R S|

G G P P |G R N` S|G P G G |R N` S , |

P G R N` |S , G P|G G P G |P-R’ S’ , |


Anupallavi

G , G , |P G G R| N` S S G|S G G P|

G P P G |P R’ S’ S’ |G’ R’ N~ |S’ , , , |

Note I have repeated each line twice-

Does this follow the rule VK?
I have introduced nyasa dhIrga etc.
Maybe it sounds different.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 06 Nov 2007, 00:30, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK
Wake up!
Are you talking about bilahari or bahudari ?

Here is a VKKLdhvani bit which some of you may recognize, but certainly Arasi will :)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/t0oadd

Good work Suji ! will liisten first...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Image
Suji

Just Fantastic! It is a masterpice....
You have elevated VKdhvani to concert level....

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji, great job. Very cool indeed :cool: nyasa dhIrga and gamakams add to the nice effect. Wow, now you have expanded the scope of this by bringing out the other facets. It also has a bit of HM sound to it.

You also should try CML's composition on the violin.

I agree with what CML said.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

cmlover wrote:VK
Wake up!
Are you talking about bilahari or bahudari ?
I do not know. Where did I mess up? I thought Arun asked about both Bilahari and Bahudari.
cmlover wrote:Here is a VKKLdhvani bit which some of you may recognize, but certainly Arasi will :)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/t0oadd
:D I hear the VKKL but I do not recognize the song. ( started to sound like the western pop song named 'popcorn' ) Are you still on the Haloween theme? ;)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK
You added the bahudari svaram and I did not see Arun including it! According to SRJ Bahudari is (28th mela)
Aro S G M P D N S'
Avaro S' N D N P M G S

Hence ndpdn is ok! (but the vakra confuses me!)

I will wait for Arasi to listen before the VKKL is revealed. She belongs to the generation for whom 'husband is the visible God' :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, I just copied what Arun provided since you missed that. The SRJ def for Bahudari is different from what Arun provided.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

VK,
The film is kaNavanE kaN kaNDa deivam. The song is 'unnaik kaN tEDudE, un ezhil kANavE, uLam nADudE!
uRangAmalE en manam vADudE, and each phrase is punctuated with a hiccup :)

arunk
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Post by arunk »

sorry - bahudari turned out to be a wrong example. I wanted to give a raga with a swara present only in arohana - and used a "simplified structure" which is incomplete and thus misleading

How about nATTai - s r3 g3 m1 p d3 n3 S/S n3 p m1 r3 s.

s-r-g-m-g-r-s
s-r-g-m-r-g-s
s-r-g-m-r-s

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 04 Nov 2007, 07:45, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

although i dont understand what extra info is conveyed by S-n-d-n-p-m-g-s avarohana version.

S-n-d-n is allowable just by the simpler version. I dont think this vakra allows d-p. It only allows d-n-p as conveyed by the vakra. But again, this is conveyed by the simpler version too.

S-n-d-n-p does occur as a phrase few times in the version of brOvabhAramA that I learnt and so perhaps s-n-d-n-p is to highlight a vishesha prayoga (i dont know that it is). The simpler s-g-m-p-d-n-S/S-n-p-m-g-s allows for it.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 04 Nov 2007, 08:17, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

vk - you got those right

Suji Ram
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

cmlover wrote:http://mazeguy.net/expressive/salute.gif
Suji

Just Fantastic! It is a masterpice....
You have elevated VKdhvani to concert level....
Thanks CML.
I like that icon :)
Can you please reproduce my varnam in MIDI. I would like to hear how it sounds with flute in comparison to your composition. Note the slurs between swaras as you hear. I could not notate those.

VK,
I'm glad you liked it. Thanks.
The HM like feel I think comes from swaras with descending slides
Now tell me if GRn~S is acceptable. Since it is allowed in mandra stayi I think it should be fine in tara stayi too.
I'm working on rest of it but I need a feed back to proceed. Composing a varnam (If I can call this one) is tough. One can soon exhaust all the swara combination. I am excited about this new raga.
The funny thing is I have to learn by heart my own creation before I play it!!.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 04 Nov 2007, 10:06, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>Now tell me if GRn~S is acceptable. Since it is allowed in mandra stayi I think it should be fine in tara stayi too.

Yes, definitely.

As you construct the rest of the varnam, see if you can work in some variations on these combinations ( you may already have some of this )

p' r s g r n' s
p' r s g n' s
p' r s g...r n s g,,

s p',,, r s g,,,

s g p g p g r n' s g,,

s g p g p g r n' s p' r s g

etc.

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

Thanks VK.
The rest of the varnam is flowing. I was intending to use GP GP next.
I was working on a gradual flow from mandra based beginning to madya to tara climax.
It is only now I realise patterns in other varnams. What a way to learn!

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Arun
All the three phrases are kosher in NaaTTai according to your rule1 But then I believe belive naaTTai requires mrs and mgrs is not allowed for whatever reason!

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