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Questions about vakra ragas

Rāga related discussions
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anandmohandas1
Posts: 1
Joined: 30 Apr 2017, 01:57

Questions about vakra ragas

Post by anandmohandas1 » 09 May 2017, 23:40

Hello,
I'm an inspirant organist and piano player, and i have very much interest in learning indian music also.
I've been trying to figure out how vakra ragas are to be played, but while i have a general idea i still have some doubts.
In Ahiri :
arohana S R S G M P D N S)
avarohana S N D P M G R S
I understand that s r g is not allowed, i wanted to kindly ask wheter these other forms are allowed:
s r s r
s r s p
s r heading below for example s r d
r g approaching from below for example n r g
r g approaching from above for example g r g
Any help is apreciated, if anyone could give set of rules possibly valid for other vakra ragas, it would be very much apreciated,
Thanks,
Ananda mohan das

melam72
Posts: 203
Joined: 02 Nov 2016, 16:12

Re: Questions about vakra ragas

Post by melam72 » 17 May 2017, 15:26

Firstly, I must tell you that Ahiri is an antediluvian raga beyond an arohanam/avarohanam. Alapanas in Ahiri are composition-based, for instance. But taking a completely scalar approach:
anandmohandas1 wrote:
09 May 2017, 23:40
s r s r
Should be allowed
anandmohandas1 wrote:
09 May 2017, 23:40
s r s p
May be used as a rare phrase, like SGM in Vasantha.
anandmohandas1 wrote:
09 May 2017, 23:40
s r heading below for example s r d
Should be allowed
anandmohandas1 wrote:
09 May 2017, 23:40
r g approaching from below for example n r g
Not allowed, as you cannot ascend directly from the rishabham to the gandharam.
anandmohandas1 wrote:
09 May 2017, 23:40
r g approaching from above for example g r g
Not allowed, as it the gandharam cannot directly follow the rishabham in the arohanam

okcarna
Posts: 1
Joined: 15 May 2017, 17:47

Re: Questions about vakra ragas

Post by okcarna » 18 May 2017, 13:10

OK, to be very clear, it's actually very simple.
Basically every note can only have a certain set of notes after it in a raga.
What those notes are is decided by the Aro and Av.
For every note, the ones after the note in the Arohana can be played (as long as you are ascending), and the ones after the note in the Avarohana can be played (while descending). Any of the ones after it can be played, no restrictions.
For example, let's take gandharam in Ahiri. You'll notice that after "G" in the Arohana is "M P D N S". That means you are perfectly allowed to compose a song with G M, G P, G D, G N, and G S. Aditionally, you'll notice that after "G" in Avarohana is just two notes - "R S". You are permitted to also compose with G R. And of course, G S.
Usually this is the case, but in Ahiri things are a little special. What you really need to do is read the Aro and Av. as this:

Arohana: S G M P D N S + (you get to use the phrase S R )
Avarohana: S N D P M G R S

What this effectively means is that for "R" in Ahiri, you can follow it up with a "S"....and that's pretty much it. Nothing else. That's the speciality that makes it different from Melakartha. You must follow up a R with a S. No choice.

You can't do anything else with the R.
Don't ask me why they called it Ahi-"Ri". XD

P.S. I'm 99% sure of this, but I'm not a music expert, so if someone with more music experience feels this is not correct, please do correct me. Thanks.

SriKrishnan
Posts: 24
Joined: 22 Oct 2014, 19:12

Re: Questions about vakra ragas

Post by SriKrishnan » 19 May 2017, 19:39

Ahiri is a bit complex raga to start with. Without appropriate "gamaka" the raga will not be recognizable.

I would suggest "Nalinakanthi" - S G R M P N S ava : S N P M G R S as Janya of Sankarabharanam

It would sound OK on Piano also.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10767
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Questions about vakra ragas

Post by vasanthakokilam » 22 May 2017, 22:55

btw, this is something Arun taught us here a long while back which dispels a very common misunderstanding as to what Arohana Avarohana means.

Let me illustrate with Kambhoji
S R2 G3 M1 P D2 S | S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

Quite a few people may think that P D2 N2 is not allowed. That is not correct, that is totally legal. But what is not legal for Kambhoji is to ascend from N2 since N2 is not in the arohanam. After P D2 N2 your only choice is descent, 'P D2 N2 D2' is the route you will have to take. After that, you can go down or up to S. 'P D2 N2 D2 P' or 'P D2 N2 D2 S' are fine.

So the nominal rule is ' you can only ascend FROM a note if it is in the arohanam, and you can only descend FROM a note if it is in the avarohanam'. Then you can apply raga specific exceptions.
The corollary is, you can ascend TO a note that is not in the Arohanam. You can descend TO a note that is not in the avarohanam

The original poster's question is about Vakra ragas. I am not sure how exactly to apply the above rule. May be the vakrams exist because the raga does not obey the above rule strictly and so they had to code the particular prayoga in the Aro/Ava itself.

vijay.siddharth
Posts: 8
Joined: 14 May 2017, 13:08

Re: Questions about vakra ragas

Post by vijay.siddharth » 26 May 2017, 08:44

Then, in a ragam like Kadana Kutuhalam, can you do sing this prayogam?

S N D P M ) ) G P S

SrinathK
Posts: 783
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Questions about vakra ragas

Post by SrinathK » 26 May 2017, 20:29

Yes.

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