It would be great if we can listen to that gramophone recording ourselves. Of late, several old gramophone recordings have surfaced, some going back to 1905 or so. I searched youtube but could not find it.jlvina wrote:When Sekhar and I asked Dr Pinakapani , where he got the oru kalai adhi tala version of Inta Soukhyamani from, he said he learnt it from the gramaphone record of Salem Krishna Iyengar.
Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanada
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad
I would say this is a more realistic and holistic view (as opposed to an utopian view on the other spectrum). I would also opine that change is inevitable (i may dare say that this is professed by the highest philosophy to which all of us including the greatest saint composers pay homage to). That any such change is labelled as progressive by some as well as corruption/adulteration by some is also inevitablesureshvv wrote: I have a slightly more liberal/licentious view. Corruptions and Adulterations are inevitable - especially in the domains of creative pursuit.
Arun
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad
I can check when he listened by asking him if i go there end oct, or speak to his son and ask him to find out about the recording ... shall let you know then. rgds , jayalakshmi sekharvasanthakokilam wrote: It would be great if we can listen to that gramophone recording ourselves. Of late, several old gramophone recordings have surfaced, some going back to 1905 or so. I searched youtube but could not find it.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad
JlVina,
Isn't there a recording of Dr. PanigAru singinging the Krishnayyangar version of Inta saukhyamani, which begins at tAra SaDja..? It does indeed have the kAkali niSadam, though I don't recollect the antara gAndhAram being there. Dr pAni has notated both versions of the song - the popular 2 kalai version beginning on mandra niSAda and this other 1 kalai version beginning at the tAra SaDja. These are in the first volume of his sangeeta sourabhamu .
This one kaLai version seems to have several karnAtaka kApi sancara-s rgm,pmm,, sndnp , pn/mp, pdns and the like. When I asked Dr pAni in 2008 if the difference between karnAtaka kApi and hindustani kApi was merely a matter of bhASAnga and upAnga kApi, he emphatically said no. he said that what Carnatic musicians sing as H.kApi has more elements of the Northern rAga Pilu.
I pointed out to Dr. PAni that the version of the rAga in the javalis bAyarAni, parulanna mATa and the padam innALLu teliyaka are all quite different from the popular bhAsAnga kApi, both in having an upanga nature and in having distinct sdancaras, and he agreed. [Though his razor-sharp mind pointed out that the padam did have a few bhASAnga phrases, but then, rAga grammar is different for padams, and for other songs!].
Dr Panigaru told me that he used to hear more of the older upAnga kApi and the other variant(s) of karnAtaka kApi before; while now it is all full of peelu. He said with a sparkle in his eye" dAnilo Ap'peelu' ekkuva!" [That kapi is more appealing].
Please do enquire about these matters when you go to pay your respects to him.
Isn't there a recording of Dr. PanigAru singinging the Krishnayyangar version of Inta saukhyamani, which begins at tAra SaDja..? It does indeed have the kAkali niSadam, though I don't recollect the antara gAndhAram being there. Dr pAni has notated both versions of the song - the popular 2 kalai version beginning on mandra niSAda and this other 1 kalai version beginning at the tAra SaDja. These are in the first volume of his sangeeta sourabhamu .
This one kaLai version seems to have several karnAtaka kApi sancara-s rgm,pmm,, sndnp , pn/mp, pdns and the like. When I asked Dr pAni in 2008 if the difference between karnAtaka kApi and hindustani kApi was merely a matter of bhASAnga and upAnga kApi, he emphatically said no. he said that what Carnatic musicians sing as H.kApi has more elements of the Northern rAga Pilu.
I pointed out to Dr. PAni that the version of the rAga in the javalis bAyarAni, parulanna mATa and the padam innALLu teliyaka are all quite different from the popular bhAsAnga kApi, both in having an upanga nature and in having distinct sdancaras, and he agreed. [Though his razor-sharp mind pointed out that the padam did have a few bhASAnga phrases, but then, rAga grammar is different for padams, and for other songs!].
Dr Panigaru told me that he used to hear more of the older upAnga kApi and the other variant(s) of karnAtaka kApi before; while now it is all full of peelu. He said with a sparkle in his eye" dAnilo Ap'peelu' ekkuva!" [That kapi is more appealing].
Please do enquire about these matters when you go to pay your respects to him.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad
Keerthi,
thats what i said too, that he has notated both versions in his Sangeetha Sourabham.
yes he has sung the song in oru kalai in a recording... that s a rec done at home without any accomp. anthara gandharam or g3 comes in only in the charanam part after the line 'swararagalaya sudharasa mandhu.... in 'vara rama nama.. its ' ss. g... gs sgm. m. ' vara. ra...ma. na.. ma--- all the ga s are anthara.. nowhere else it comes in his singing.
i shall clarify your questions when i see him next.
rgds
jayalakshmi sekhar
thats what i said too, that he has notated both versions in his Sangeetha Sourabham.
yes he has sung the song in oru kalai in a recording... that s a rec done at home without any accomp. anthara gandharam or g3 comes in only in the charanam part after the line 'swararagalaya sudharasa mandhu.... in 'vara rama nama.. its ' ss. g... gs sgm. m. ' vara. ra...ma. na.. ma--- all the ga s are anthara.. nowhere else it comes in his singing.
i shall clarify your questions when i see him next.
rgds
jayalakshmi sekhar
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad
Could you point me to a recording of Kalpagam Swaminathan playing this kriti if it is available online? I have learnt this song myself a long time ago and I am curious to see how my version compares to the KS version.rbharath wrote: ...
Kalpakam mAmi's rendition of MD's vIra hanumatE is another version that shows the nuances of the rAgam.
...
Thanks in advance
Thenpaanan
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad
The Kapi..( coffee) has many flavors...It is not always Tanjavur degree coffee...
A write up on this raga by Sriram on the discussions held at Music Academy on December 2008 ....
"The next raga taken up was Kapi, which I must clarify here is Karnataka Kapi today though old texts only call it Kapi. The usage of Antara Gandhara and Kakali Nishada is specified at certain places in all texts on this raga. If you thought all this was simple, four records were then played:
1. Ramnad Krishnan singing a brief raga alapana which had so many traces of Darbar.
2. KVN singing the present day Kapi (the Carnatic Hindustani Kapi to be precise) as a prelude to Sumasayaka (of Swati Tirunal) which was always listed under the old (Karnataka) Kapi.
3. Madurai Mani Iyer singing a fast version of Venkatachalapate of Muttuswami Dikshitar which sounded more like Kanada.
4. A vilamba rendition of the same song sung at home by Smt Ramani, NR’s mother in law.
To add to the confusion, Venkatamakhi gives the scales for this raga as SRGMPDNS/SNDPMGGRS while KV Srinivasa Iyengar gives it as SRGMRPMPDNS/SNDPMGRS. More confusion to follow for the Tyagaraja kriti Nityarupa is sung in both Kapi and Darbar.
RR then sang Nityarupa as per the Kanchipuram Naina Pillai style. She said that the SSP definition for Kapi differs from what is sung now in that it allows for DSNP/GGRS/RPMP/RGMP/RPMPRS/PMRMRS phrases. The song Akhilandesvari of Syama Sastry shows usage of MPRMRS in addition to above. The phrase RMP is avoided in all sources but is in vogue in today’s Kapi. Other phrases pointed out by Subbarama Dikshitar but not used by him are SNMPM/PMGMR. Tyagaraja kritis use phrases such as SNDNP/RGMP/RMPDN/SNDP/RGMGR all of which are akin to Rudrapriya.
To further add to the confusion, NR stated that the present day Carnatic Hindustani Kapi is Pilu in Hindustani Music. A clip of Pt Ravi Shankar and Yehudi Menuhim performing this raga together was played. Dr Pappu said that there was a Bharata Natyam Kapi and a Kuchipudi Kapi as well!! NR said that Jagadoddharana was set in Dana Kapi or Madhyama Kapi in some books. ( I needed a Mocha Kapi just then)"
( http://sriramv.wordpress.com/2008/12/31 ... mber-2008/ )
archa talks with substance and sense but has to learn to use a better acceptable language in a forum like this where different view points will surface
and one has to keep up the decorum ...
The many flavours of Kapi...
read at The Hindu...here..
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2009/01/23/stor ... 470900.htm
A write up on this raga by Sriram on the discussions held at Music Academy on December 2008 ....
"The next raga taken up was Kapi, which I must clarify here is Karnataka Kapi today though old texts only call it Kapi. The usage of Antara Gandhara and Kakali Nishada is specified at certain places in all texts on this raga. If you thought all this was simple, four records were then played:
1. Ramnad Krishnan singing a brief raga alapana which had so many traces of Darbar.
2. KVN singing the present day Kapi (the Carnatic Hindustani Kapi to be precise) as a prelude to Sumasayaka (of Swati Tirunal) which was always listed under the old (Karnataka) Kapi.
3. Madurai Mani Iyer singing a fast version of Venkatachalapate of Muttuswami Dikshitar which sounded more like Kanada.
4. A vilamba rendition of the same song sung at home by Smt Ramani, NR’s mother in law.
To add to the confusion, Venkatamakhi gives the scales for this raga as SRGMPDNS/SNDPMGGRS while KV Srinivasa Iyengar gives it as SRGMRPMPDNS/SNDPMGRS. More confusion to follow for the Tyagaraja kriti Nityarupa is sung in both Kapi and Darbar.
RR then sang Nityarupa as per the Kanchipuram Naina Pillai style. She said that the SSP definition for Kapi differs from what is sung now in that it allows for DSNP/GGRS/RPMP/RGMP/RPMPRS/PMRMRS phrases. The song Akhilandesvari of Syama Sastry shows usage of MPRMRS in addition to above. The phrase RMP is avoided in all sources but is in vogue in today’s Kapi. Other phrases pointed out by Subbarama Dikshitar but not used by him are SNMPM/PMGMR. Tyagaraja kritis use phrases such as SNDNP/RGMP/RMPDN/SNDP/RGMGR all of which are akin to Rudrapriya.
To further add to the confusion, NR stated that the present day Carnatic Hindustani Kapi is Pilu in Hindustani Music. A clip of Pt Ravi Shankar and Yehudi Menuhim performing this raga together was played. Dr Pappu said that there was a Bharata Natyam Kapi and a Kuchipudi Kapi as well!! NR said that Jagadoddharana was set in Dana Kapi or Madhyama Kapi in some books. ( I needed a Mocha Kapi just then)"
( http://sriramv.wordpress.com/2008/12/31 ... mber-2008/ )
archa talks with substance and sense but has to learn to use a better acceptable language in a forum like this where different view points will surface
and one has to keep up the decorum ...
The many flavours of Kapi...
read at The Hindu...here..
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2009/01/23/stor ... 470900.htm
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad
The sampradAya pradarshini has a laconic entry for kAnaDa [or kAnra], just listing it under a label ‘aprasiddha’. Also dikSitar has listed both kApi and kAnada as bhASAnga janyas.
Surely Subbarama diksitar must have felt the need to put in an entry for it, since it was a raga prevalent in his time, though it wasn’t recorded by vEnkaTamakhin in the srIrAga gitam, as a janya of the 22nd mela. The fashion in which he had illustrated the bhASanga notes – n3 and g3 is quite different from the way in which they are handled in modern treatments of kApi – karnATaka or not.
In the five compositions notate in the SSP, and in the gitam of venkaTamakhi, and in the sancAri of Sd, we don’t find any instances of the bhAsAnga notes being notated. vEnkatAcalapate, as represented by the oral traditions of Smt. Kalpakam Swaminathan and Tiruppamburam SwaminAtha Pillaidoesn’t use any bhASanga notes.
SubbarAma dikSitar in one of his rAgamalikas composed for the Ananda-Gajapati Raja of Vizianagaram ‘kAmincina kalAvati rA’, has used both ragas kApi and kAnaDa, [the latter he refers to as karnATa]. We have a nice case to compare and understand the difference in Subbarama diksitar’s vision of the rAgas kApi and kAnaDa.
archa,
Surely Subbarama diksitar must have felt the need to put in an entry for it, since it was a raga prevalent in his time, though it wasn’t recorded by vEnkaTamakhin in the srIrAga gitam, as a janya of the 22nd mela. The fashion in which he had illustrated the bhASanga notes – n3 and g3 is quite different from the way in which they are handled in modern treatments of kApi – karnATaka or not.
In the five compositions notate in the SSP, and in the gitam of venkaTamakhi, and in the sancAri of Sd, we don’t find any instances of the bhAsAnga notes being notated. vEnkatAcalapate, as represented by the oral traditions of Smt. Kalpakam Swaminathan and Tiruppamburam SwaminAtha Pillaidoesn’t use any bhASanga notes.
SubbarAma dikSitar in one of his rAgamalikas composed for the Ananda-Gajapati Raja of Vizianagaram ‘kAmincina kalAvati rA’, has used both ragas kApi and kAnaDa, [the latter he refers to as karnATa]. We have a nice case to compare and understand the difference in Subbarama diksitar’s vision of the rAgas kApi and kAnaDa.
archa,
Which is irrelevant here. Maybe we should restrict our discussions to matters relevant to rAgalakSaNa, on this thread at least.I am only trying to provoke a healthy discussion on various styles of music.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad
No ideas about online availability and/or recordingsthenpaanan wrote: rbharath:
Kalpakam mAmi's rendition of MD's vIra hanumatE is another version that shows the nuances of the rAgam.
...
Could you point me to a recording of Kalpagam Swaminathan playing this kriti if it is available online? I have learnt this song myself a long time ago and I am curious to see how my version compares to the KS version.
I only fondly remember her playing this kriti, during one of the innumerable visits to her home.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanada
Very simple. Karnataka kapi is the original karaharapriya!
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanada
Other two Kritis in Karnataka kapi:
1 Venkataachalapathey: Dikshitar (Manipravala sahitya)
Popularised by Madurai Mani Iyer
2 Sambho satatam paahi kripayaa: Swati Tirunal
Popularised by Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer
1 Venkataachalapathey: Dikshitar (Manipravala sahitya)
Popularised by Madurai Mani Iyer
2 Sambho satatam paahi kripayaa: Swati Tirunal
Popularised by Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer