Scalar raga? Vector raga?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Oct 2014, 05:12

Harimau uvAcha

ganeshkarthik · Post by **ganeshkarthik** » 14 Mar 2015, 20:52

Hello all, an intresting discussion. I would request you to compare suddhasaveri- a vector raga and pasupathipriya- as a scalar raga as per my understanding of the above definition . can we say ragas whose roopam can be achieved plain notes as scalors.physics also says scalar as only magnitude (in music- swarams), but vector as both magnitude and direction ( swarams with gamakams as per manodharma rules- otherwise we will land up in some other raga)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Mar 2015, 22:52

GeneshKarthik, that is a neat twist in the interpretation of scalar vs vector.

Very nice.

In fact, that popular distinction ( Magnitude ) vs (Magnitude + Direction ) is actually a very special case of the general mathematical definition of Vectors. Vectors are built using scalars by using certain well defined rules ( called axioms ). Those rules are deceptively simple but a whole gigantic universe of mathematics has resulted from it (Linear Algebra). That pretty much dominates the world of science and engineering (as many of you know, Quantum Physics is all about Linear Algebra).

What you state works with this general picture as well. Even more so I suppose. Ragas are indeed built out of scales using some well defined aesthetic rules. Rules give you guidance on do's and don'ts. They provide boundaries which give rise to shapes and behaviors - form and function. The 'raga rules' are not precise rules as in mathematical rules but they are rules nonetheless in terms of defining boundaries with a lot of artistic freedom. I would even venture to say that those rules are fairly simple, And out of scales and those rules a whole gigantic universe of musical aesthetics have been derived. That is Indian music, raga music, the musical vector space.

(Note : in the interest of rigor, the above is just a conceptual comparison and just for fun. Ragas are not really vectors made out of scales as per mathematical definition of a vector)

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 19 Mar 2015, 20:16

Allow me to barge in to a most fascinating subject on ragas. I am drawing upon whatever little I have listened to, read, thought about and experimented with myself to examine. If you really want to determine what a raga is really capable of, we need to look at all the following. As usual, this will have to involve several posts.

It's gamaka capabilities : And I'm not just refering to kampitas, there are several types of gamakas involved, but ok, I'll start here :

1) Kampita : E.g. How many ways can you phrase that G2 in Thodi ? I'm still finding out more -- yesterday while listening to an ARI thodi (Kangalidyaathako), I noticed in the swara section a rapid kampita on a G,, which was new to my ears. The gamakas of a note are not only taken in isolation, they also change slightly depending on the combination of swaras present in the raga phrase.

This level of gamaka also depends on the overall tempo of the krithi or alapana. How many new gamakas can you discover singing that krithi slower or faster? Even some plain note brighas would qualify. So how many gamaka colours DOES that raga phrase have?

And yes, vibrato is a gamaka too even if the label is Italian. Some scalar ragas really have a limited gamaka palette than others, partially because their scales are too knotted in vakra phrases, or some notes are too far apart, and this can stop some swaras from using the kampita.

2) The dhaTTu : You have a raga. How many swaras can be linked with how many other swaras and create recognizable raga phrases. Again more evolved ragas shine here. In particular the pentatonic ragas seem to have a flair for this sort of gamaka, as their scales are not so dense nor so sparse as to allow quite a few combinations.

This is where the distinction can get tricky. How far can you take this gamaka without treading on another raga's territory? For this reason, there shouldn't actually be too many vakra scales posing as ragas, it can limit the scope of this gamaka in many other ragas. However, CM so far seems to have this problem very well on the whole, but some ragas like Harikambhoji and the lesser sung melakartha ragas do suffer from the "Janya effect" -- the phenomenon where a melakartha becomes limited by the very ragas put under it.

More on Part 2

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 19 Mar 2015, 21:26

3) Arohanam and Avarohanam : Is only one of the gamakas, YES! A really limited idea is to assume that the arohanam and avarohanam creates the raga. While this is true in many scalar ragas, vector ragas have a much greater potential outside the "skeleton" if I may put it. Their evolution is driven more by experimentation with phrases and the arohanam avarohanam is hardly indicative of their true capabilities. Some ragas can violate their skeletons to the point where it has to be heard to be believed. Look at Atana : M P N2 S ; P D N2 S ; M P S ; P D N DSNDN P (notice the subtle dhatus that come in those short brigha phrases) ; M P N3 S ; M P S N3 S ; S N3 D N2 P ; S N3 P : S N2 P (there is a jharu here) ; S P ; S D P ; D N D S ; S N3 D2 - P (This is not so straightforward, you need a long slide from N3 to D2 and then one more slide to P, so it can be done in slow speeds, but would sound odd in faster tempos, but crucially it indicates the ability of gamakas to carve out combinations that would otherwise not be possible or sound meaningful from swara derived phrasings).

By aro avaro definitions, aTaaNa would be at least 6 different ragas! I'm not even talking about ragas like Nattakurinji which has 2 very distinct avarohanams with no common ground. Ataana is a case of fuzzy logic in comparison to the binary logic of Nattakurinji.

There is a particular gamaka that allows you to skip the Panchamam or the Shadjamam or some other note without losing the flavour of the raga and not every raga can handle it. Thodi can use it at will

, Shankarabharanam, Madhyamavati to a lesser extent. Thodi is unique among all the 72 ragas for this one. I have not heard other notes skipped at will like that. Madhyamavati is a tricky line on the other hand -- overdo it and Madhyamavati is gone and a mere scale remains.

4) Unique phrases : Go beyond swara. Just how hard is it to make a unique phrase which you are sure can be a totally new raga? E.g. Look at Amrita Behag. The story is that GNB got the idea for a new raga by listening to TNR experimenting with some really vakra phrases in Kalyani -- phrases which came from the "walking lab works" that was TNR. After some thought, it would have become clear to him that these could really not be recognized as Kalyani and would indeed be a new raga's. This requires a lot of thought, a lot of evolution and a vast knowledge on the capabilities of known ragas and a deeper intuition that can actually recognize a raga's identity the way we recognize people despite a change of clothes, age or hairstyles or a new style of dressing. Clearly there is more to a person's identity than just defining him by parts of clothes or fashion sense -- the whole is more than just a sum of parts. So is your musical sense as developed as your visual cortex?

Which brings us to some questions. How can you sing Sarasangi without it looking like a fusion of Lathangi and Charukesi? Clearly new phrases have to be discovered, sometimes imported. Do you think that Sarasangi's N3 can be sung plain like KalyaNi ? (maybe it has, my recordings of Sarasangi are limited) As a matter of fact, Kalyani's plain N3 is a more recent discovery -- so it's still evolving. But will Sarasangi or other scalar ragas evolve even further? Despite sharing 6 out of 7 notes, Kambhoji and Shankarabharanam have found their own ways to distinguish their notes -- do you think the vivadis in one chakra with the same S R G & M can evolve their own spectra? As an example a plain N3 is king of kaarvai in Kalyani, not so much in Shankarabharanam (I've heard ARI use it a lot, but now-a-days it seems to have adjusted in response to the evolution of N3 Kalyani). G3 in Shankarabharanam is a plain note while G3 in Kalyani has oscillations. Will the vivadis do something similar to acquire their own identity?

More questions. Do ragas have an overpopulation problem where the presence of too many ragas with common notes starts to limit each one's scope? E.g. I am afraid that Keeravani will hesitate to use a S-P jharu (unlike BegaDa or Thodi) because it has been stolen by it's little sister, Kiranavali. Harikambhoji in particular has been hit quite badly and is forced to stick to more scalar phrases (and avoid many others that would be possible) out of fear of Khamas and Kambhoji, limiting it's scope.

The evolution of ragas means that we can encounter surprisingly different variations of these ragas depending upon the "gamaka spectrum" -- this is just a vast ground that it can create many versions of a raga that are totally unique and when taken to it's extreme can even carve a musical system into 2 or more (Yes, HM Yaman vs CM KalyaNi) -- so it is not something that can be answered right away, it needs time and lots of research. It will take even longer for these ragas to standardize into versions with sufficient common ground that a Kambhoji is always going to be a Kambhoji regardless of musician and won't sound like a graft experiement of ragas spliced together.

(Then again, there is Basant Bahar, which is one such splice experiment, which finds an identity by turning it's 2nd arohanam into a special effect)

More on PART 2

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 20 Mar 2015, 08:17

A layman's question: why can't we have different ragas ones without gamakas (simply scalar?), and ones with them? For example, Thodi is unrecognisable without gamakas. Can't we have a basic thodi without gamakas?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Mar 2015, 22:16

why can't we have different ragas ones without gamakas (simply scalar?), and ones with them?

We have cases where raga A and B are same in syntax ( Aro/Ava ) and are differnt in their gamakas. One extreme case of that is B is without any gamakas. I think HM will be more amenable to such a thing than CM since HM strongly identifies ragas with such aesthetic considerations ( prototypical example being Bhoopali and Deskhar ). Of course that does not mean they will necessarily consider a 100% straight note usage as a raga.

One strange way to answer the question is 'There can be ragas that are same as scales but not all scales can be ragas'. The reason is, ragas are organic and arise out of musical aesthetics. They are not conceived in a day by putting together a sequence of notes. It has to have a characteristic swaroopa that is aesthetically interesting and can be codified as a melodic motif. If it so happens it is all straight notes usage and hence same as scale, so be it. But obviously that does not mean all scales can be considered as ragas, even the ones that are derived from well known ragas sans gamakas. The necessary test it has to pass is whether it has appeal from a melodic perspective.

(Also as a practical matter, ragas need time to settle into the consciousness of people, but that is different given that is a sociological phenomenon)

There are web sites that provide mappings between film songs and ragas. Quite a few such mappings do not make any sense because it is based on notes used and looking up a raga with that note usage. Another misconception which is more subtle is to claim that they can produce totally different emotions for ragas. Even Ilayaraja was susceptible to that at times when he claimed that his song in Subhapantuvarali is all joyous. All he is saying there is that he used subhapantuvarali notes but without any subhapantuvarali gammakas or characteristic phrases. It is subtle because ragas can indeed produce different emotions ( like Mukhari having a wide range of such emotions ) but the bottomline is it should sound like that raga even when different emotions are brought out.

For example, Thodi is unrecognisable without gamakas. Can't we have a basic thodi without gamakas?

That will sound like Sindhu Bhairavi. There is more to SB but people will most probably think you are playing SB. ( e.g. P D1 P.. M1 G2 R1 R1 R1,,,, R1 G1 M1 P.. M1 G2 R1... S.... played without gamma's would sound like the starting line of Venkatachala nilayam.. more or less )

But it turns out that it is OK to sing thodi without gamakas occasionally. MLV in her excellent thodi Lec Dem says so and also you can sense that clearly in some portions of a few Papanasam Sivan songs as well.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 21 Mar 2015, 10:35

Thank you Vasanthakokilam. It has been lucid.

ganeshkarthik · Post by **ganeshkarthik** » 22 Mar 2015, 13:45

Mr. srinath and mr. kv chellapa, it was amazing to see your depth of analysis

. I would like to mention one view which i have heared from many stalwarts."Ragas (especially vectors) cannot be got with swaras''. Each and every raga has its own roopam like you and me. In my understanding these shapes can only be felt but not written. One of the important aspect of CM is the term '' manodharma '' which i understand as a dharma common for all our manas (unwritten rules, as it not possible. Simply can we write how is thodi's G2? But we all know what is thodi's G2

). I use to compare this with rangoli ( In fact i dont know it). There we can see, first they will plot the matrix with many dots.(this is our melakartha or the framework). Then they will connect the dots to get a picture ( which is the final raga roopam). I think the way we connect the dots matters(manodharma) whether it is a kuthuvilakku or an elephant rangoli ( Final raga roopam) . So before we proceed to perform a raga we should keep the picture in our mind.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Mar 2015, 22:00

Ganeshkarthick. I like your Rangoli metaphor. And those shapes are indeed motifs/templates and are not static. Different people can use similar connections to produce the same recognizable shapes but they all can/will look different. Just as it happens with alapanas and various songs in the same raga.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 29 Mar 2015, 21:33

Although I wanted to write quite a bit more here, I've been buried underground in work for a while and have just found my way to the surface. So I'll just mention one more very important point :

How many compositions are around to explore the full gamut of this raga? Essentially, how big is this raga's data bank?

Like my example in ATaana, I know those phrases exist because of all the Thyagaraja krithis out there. And we know that there are ragas with literally hundreds of compositions of all types and tempos and talas and phrases in them whereas at the other end there are ragas which have "tried to venture into compositions" and all in between. The last category definitely needs a compositional genius like Thyagaraja or an OVS and a vast array of musical geniuses who will increasingly expand the interpretation of both the krithi and the raga -- I must point out here that as ragas and gamakas evolved, krithis and sangathis too have evolved and the impact is mutual. Then these lesser ragas would standardize -- i.e. their "data bank" has become large enough to sufficiently build their unique "body". A raga is a person, an entity, only that it is made up of sound and musical phrases and is recognizable to the ear as a person is to the eye. And "raga genetics" is a very real thing. No wonder those old descriptions of "raga devatas" or the artistic descriptions of ragas as characters can be found.

Next time someone asks what a raga is, say "A musical individual, made of musical phrases and features".

Now I should note that ragas can still be elaborated extensively even without a large data bank of krithis -- but still, that has been the base that differentiates ragas that share a lot of common swaras and establishes common standards. How else could you differentiate between a G3 of Shankarabharanam and a G3 of Kalyani or the R2 of Shankarabharanam and the plain R2 of Lathangi? Or even define how Shakarabharanam can have a plain G3 or Lathangi has a plain R2 or that the G2 of Thodi despite its huge spectrum is still different from the G2 of Dhanyasi or Bhavapriya? I dare say, make the D2 of Shankarabharanam as plain and you will suddenly have a different raga. Maybe some other melakartha could try it, and use it as a jeeva svara.

Oh yes, that reminds me -- Garudadhwani. Same D N S - D, P and G M P - (G) R, S are possible in both ragas (Shankarabharanam can do this despite being a sampoorna raaga), but they are so TOTALLY different. Fact is, Garudadhwani sounds like an orchestral C-major composition in comparison to the mighty Shankarabharanam. Their M1s are both completely different too, with Garudadhwani taking great care not to use the kampita gamaka as Shankarabharanam does, instead treating it virtually as a plain note.

The other day I was seeing a completely different version of Manavati (HM flavour) which didn't sound like anything I've heard before. That means the scope of this raga is still so unexplored it probably hasn't fully standardized, yet -- or it may be interpreted completely differently in another system of music, which is also a clear example that defining a raga by label and aro-avaro is by no means enough. At least in the CM system, this is one major purpose of having compositions in a raga.

Considering that Thyagaraja (for e.g.) alone has 81 unique ragas to his credit, I'd say he was definitely trying to explore the world of ragas and would have found even more had he had a much longer time on earth.

The scope of this subject is staggering. Even after hundreds of years of musical evolution, we are finding ourselves thoroughly tiny in front of what is still possible.

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 15 Jan 2016, 22:45

http://srutimag.blogspot.com/2016/01/ra ... l?spref=fb

- A fun (ish) article by me on the topic. Comments welcome.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Jan 2016, 01:46

Great work, Sindhuja!! Loved it. I was waiting for Begada to make an appearance and sure it did.

"Bahudhāri got quite offended and said, “On top of being gamak-ist and phras-ist, now you’re being ageist!”

Nice!

that Nalinakanthi and Hamsadhwani give pure visceral joy to a lot of people, whereas Shubhapantuvarali can make them deeply melancholic. Hamsanādam often evokes passion and is deeply moving, while Shankarābharanam can stir up a sense of blissful contentment.Nīlambari is reassuringly soothing while Thōdi and Bhairavi evoke a sense of grandeur and loftiness.

All good stuff and well written. This is something we all relate to in pretty much along those lines. When I read the above, I wondered about if any other community/culture/society outside of CM and HM circles would associate such highly specific emotions with melodic motifs. I can see them associating individual songs and compositions giving them such experiences but it will be interesting to see if there are higher level melodic abstractions( like the raga ) that people associate with emotions. Closest one I can think of is, western ear does consider minor scale to be a bit darker or sombre than the major scale.

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 16 Jan 2016, 08:50

Thank you, @vasanthakokilam!
And yes, that's an interesting question - I think for starters no other genre has such rigid, codified musical forms as ragas. But having said that, it's true that the major scale is generally considered "happy" and the minor scale not so much.

As an aside I in fact think that even individual notes/ swaras (even the plain ones in Carnatic) can create strong moods.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 16 Jan 2016, 12:02

Very nice, Sindhuja. Thanks for sharing

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 16 Jan 2016, 14:19

Sindhuja
Very nicely written and quite educative as well. I especially like the entry of chitta who resolved the stalemate- ofcourse chitta himself/herself can have a radically different opinion the very next day . Great write up.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jan 2016, 01:15

Sindhuja, it is interesting you classified Mohanam more on the scale side. It is true that simple execution of the scale reveals its identify. A part of it. But one needs to bring in gamakas and pidis/prayogas to bring out the rest of it, right? So it that dialog Mohanam could have played on both sides, chiding both sides and come out smelling great!!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 17 Jan 2016, 07:18

In one Q&A, TMK said that ga of mohanam goes close to ma.

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 17 Jan 2016, 07:37

Nice to see this topic rolling along over the years! Enjoyed reading Sindhuja's article and SrinathK's posts among others.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 18 Jan 2016, 11:20

Nice post Sindhuja. How come Jayantasena stayed out of the fracas?

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 19 Jan 2016, 05:30

Thanks, all!

vasanthakokilam: that ambiguity in classifying Mohanam is exactly what I intended to convey there, perhaps I wasn't very successful. I don't believe Mohanam belongs to the likes of Reethigowlai/ Begada/ Sahana - it is not characterized by typical phraseologies and I think it is one of those ragas where "anything goes". But of course, it has come to acquire strong raktitvam in the form of gamakams and pids as you say - and that's the point that I intended Nattakurinji to be making in that monologue but guess I was too quick there and could have added more details.

sureshvv: I guess Jayanthasena wanted to stay of the fracas - you see, he's not very confrontational...
On a serious note, excuse me but I'm not sure why you ask - I think it's going back to an earlier discussion here but not sure

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jan 2016, 09:33

Sindhuja wrote: sureshvv: I guess Jayanthasena wanted to stay of the fracas - you see, he's not very confrontational...
On a serious note, excuse me but I'm not sure why you ask - I think it's going back to an earlier discussion here but not sure

My memory is rather poor and I don't recall the earlier discussion, may be you can provide the context. Reason is a couple days back I heard Abhishek sing Jayantasena with alapana, and was wondering where in the spectrum it would fall.

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 19 Jan 2016, 23:48

Ah I see, ok - that way tons and tons of ragas are missing from the scene. I had to pick and choose from the 1000s of ragas in existence...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Jan 2016, 00:25

The rakthis and ghanas raise their hand and say 'we are a countably small group. Let me prove it. Roll Call please'

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 23 Jan 2016, 18:18

Wow Sindhuja, fantastic article.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 24 Jan 2016, 08:55

Can a new rakthi raga evolve afresh?

shibi · Post by **shibi** » 11 Feb 2016, 05:28

There is a lovely lecture where TM Krishna makes distinctions between different kinds of raagas, i.e., naturally evolving raagas like Begada, Atana, Anandha Bhairavi, Rithigowla etc and up and down "scales" (with no meandering or vakra phrases like Nalinakanthi, Kadanakudoohalam) like Shanmugapriya, Simhendramadhyamam, Dharmavathi, Lathangi etc etc .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zVVy62EtHg

I have a question regarding this. Where would say, Sankarabharanam, Kalyani and Mayamalavagowla, Karaharapriya fit into this? They seem to kind of fit into both, in the sense that they have this "rakthi" kind of feel associated with them (as also evidenced by the fact that Mayamalavagowla, Sankarabharanam and Kalyani seem to appear in Hindusthani music as well) and also seem to *exactly* fit into the melakartha "up and down" classification.

Another question, not totally unrelated to the above:
What is TM Krishna's position regarding this?

rasikas.org

Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?

Re: Scalar raga? Vector raga?