Arohana and Avarohana

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 05 Jun 2015, 07:55

By definition, Arohana means ascending and avarohana means descending.
Therefore what is the logic behind some (in fact many) janya rAgas having combination of both ascending and descending notes in either or both Arohana and Avarohana?

carnaticwriter · Post by **carnaticwriter** » 05 Jun 2015, 09:10

Examples wld serve better and help elaborate the question.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 05 Jun 2015, 18:55

Sindu Bhairavi (10) S R2 G2 M1 G2 P D1 N2 S - N2 D1 P M1 G2 R1 S N2 S

Bindhumālini (16) S G3 R1 G3 M1 P N2 S - S N2 S D2 P G3 R1 S

These are the examples of both Arohana and Avarohana containing a mixture of ascending and descending swaras.
There are many which have such mixture in either Arohana or Avarohana

This has been taken from the list of Janaka and Janya ragas provided in http://www.theveena.com/melakartha/classification.html

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 05 Jun 2015, 19:53

I"m a little stumped by your question, Sri Govindan, coming from you, as this is generally well-known and not usually questioned. The arohanam for Bindumalini, for example has a ri, but it cannot be accessed directly from Sa while going up to Ga.. This will lead to a vakra prayoga and is a basic charm of the raga.. Begada has a similar S G3R2G3m.. If you say srgm, you won't have Begada..

The phrase "Mallika Jaaji, Champaka Haarasya" in Vallabha Nayakasya has the higher S-grg-- (At Mallika) If there is a R following a S in begada, then that ri is always followed by a return to Sa or Ni, making it a descending R. You cannot go directly to Ga from ri without having touched a Ga first in Begada.

I feel I am saying something so basic, I must have understood your question wrong, but I can't think of what else you could mean. If I've said anything inaccurate, I will be happy to be corrected.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 Jun 2015, 19:54

vgv sir,

These are called "vakra" (twisted) patterns, and thus vakra ragas - where (more often) the flavor of the raga is defined by certain phrases, and sometimes raga rules are more complex than what normal aro/avaro can convey.

For example if you take gaula. Here one can only ascend from "ga" and cannot descend from it. But one can also ascend from ga only in the context of the characteristic phrase r g m r. So gaula's arohana, which defines which swaras one can ascend from is not s r g m p n s - since that implies you can do r g m p, which isnt allowed in gaula, where after g m, one must descend to ri. Instead this rule for ga is incorporated in the avarohana: s n p m r g m r s. Note also, while descending, although p m r s is indeed allowed in gaula, more often it is p m r g m r s (i.e. follows the avarohana pattern).

But IMO in many cases, ragas whose aro/avaro are listed in using vakra, are more an attempt to better convey the raga swaroopam in aro/avaro, which for those ragas otherwise would be a extremely gross approximation (although that still happens). In some cases it is an attempt to convey more complex rules (like ga of gaula above - you can ascend but only within a particular context). For example ragas like nATakurinji etc. have quite complex rules as to when pa can appear and this results in a complex aro/avaro. In other cases, the vakra pattern may imply more common phrase being introduced (to convey raga swaroopam).

Hope that helps.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 Jun 2015, 19:59

I see while I was writing that post Ranganayaki has opined with the same point

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 05 Jun 2015, 20:39

+I agree with the last paragraph of Arunk.. but I think that if the main distinction of the janya from the melakarta or another raga with similar swaras is a particular vakra prayoga and it is difficult for me to see how the arohana - avarohana can be stated in any other way. If begada were not sgrgmpdn2dps Sn3dpmgrs, we would say it is srgmpdn2s, sn3dpmgrs (like a mix of harikambhoji going up and Shankarabharanam coming down) which would allow a lot of freedom in begada that the krities do not take. Bhairavi does seem to have such options and its arohana is mostly said to be srgmpd2ns rather than sgrgmpd2ns.. There are enough examples of both prayogas, making sgrgm an interesting feature and not a necessary one, so the more direct arohana and avarohana are used in defining the scale of the raga Bhairavi (as a mix of Kharaharapriya going up and Natabhairavi coming down)

It seems I didn't misinterpret the question! Thanks, Arun!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 Jun 2015, 21:04

Another interesting example is Sriraga: s r m p n s | s n p d n p m r g r s

Here one can descend from ga, but you cannot do m g r (you also immediately go into manirangu territory). You can do r g r i.e. descend ga after you approach ga from below as in ri. The case with "p d n p" is different. It specifies the certainly allowed rare (so rare that tyagaraja skips it completely in endaro, but dIkshitar has it in his krithis, and it also occurs in the varnam) prayoga in which dha can appear - and dha can appear only in this context. Of course this implies that one does not necessarily descend from s to ma, as "s n p d n p m' as a literal interpretation of the above avorohana may imply - s n p m is way, way more common. So in general vakra aro/avaro interpretation can be quite tricky

Arun

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 05 Jun 2015, 23:53

Thanks to Ranganayaki and Arun for clarification. However, my question is about the 'logic' and how far the logic could be extended without totally violating the rules of Arohana and Avarohana? Does vakra prayoga have some rules?

This is also relevant from the standpoint of raga names and their being grouped under a particular Melakarta. There are many instances where the same Raga name (with different Arohana and Avarohana) appears under different Melakarta.

Asāveri (8) S R1 M1 P D1 S - S N2 S P D1 M1 P R1 G2 R1 S
Asāveri (22) S R2 G2 M1 D2 N2 S - S N2 D2 M1 P D2 M1 G2 R2 S

There are also examples of two or more Ragas having same svaras -

Gamanapriya - Gamakapriya (51)

53 Gamakakriyā S R1 G3 M2 P D2 S - S N3 D2 P M2 G3 R1 S
51 Gamakapriyā S R1 G3 M2 P N3 D1 S - S D1 P M2 G3 R1 S
51 Gamanapriyā S R1 G3 M2 P N3 D1 S - S D1 P M2 G3 R1 S

And same Raga having five different Arohana and Avarohana

65 Hameer Kalyāni S P M2 P D2 N3 S - S N3 D2 P M2 M1 G3 P M1 R2 S
65 Hameer Kalyāni S R2 S P M2 P D2 N3 S - S N3 D2 P M2 G3 M1 G3 R2 S
65 Hameer Kalyāni S R2 S P M2 N3 D2 S N3 S - S N3 D2 P M2 G M1 R2 S
65 Hameer Kalyāni S R2 G3 M2 P D2 N3 P D2 P S - S N3 D2 P G3 M1 G3 R2 S
65 Hameer Kalyāni S P M2 P D2 N3 S - S N3 D2 P G3 M1 G3 R2 S

There are many such examples.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 Jun 2015, 00:09

VGV Sir,

To your point about multiple aro/avaro for a raga pointing to diferent melas: Many times aro/avaro simply reflect some historical value (raga swaroopa was different using different swaras maybe - pl. dont use this to necessarily conclude that it was aro/avaro then was necessarily accurate), and sometimes name collision (different ragas called by same name in different region), name confusion (same raga name used incorrectly for different ragas).

w.r.t logic vakra ragas (complex rules) perhaps leading to this:

IMO: firstly, the logic is not consistent across all vakra ragas' aro/avaro.

Secondly, there are many ragas whose full structure cannot be accommodated in aro/avaro, or if you try do it similar to above, the aro/avaro's effectiveness (being concise and relatively easy to digest) will be lost. For example, Anandabhairavi uses D1, some flavors G3, and I think even N3. Trying to accommodate all these is pointless - in fact even with out these anya swaras, if you compare its aro/avaro without these against say the pattersn you see in varnam, you find the aro/avaro is a gross approximation. When you approximate, it is not hard to see that different people can come up with more than one variant of an approximate of a particular thing.

Thirdly, (and perhaps most importantly) this necessity to classify all ragas as Janyas of a mela is a misguided practice (which unfortunately is well ingrained). It works well for many, it completely falls apart for many more - obviously for SADava, auDava etc. it IMO is a contrived, pointless exercise.

With ragas (like many things), theory follows from practice - raga's grammars are in general established after raga has had so-called "soak time". Although once theory is established it can play a part in curtailing the evolution, but IMO it almost always follows practice. This is not very different from language evolution/change.

Arun

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 06 Jun 2015, 07:33

arunk wrote:Thirdly, (and perhaps most importantly) this necessity to classify all ragas as Janyas of a mela is a misguided practice (which unfortunately is well ingrained). It works well for many, it completely falls apart for many more - obviously for SADava, auDava etc. it IMO is a contrived, pointless exercise.

With ragas (like many things), theory follows from practice - raga's grammars are in general established after raga has had so-called "soak time". Although once theory is established it can play a part in curtailing the evolution, but IMO it almost always follows practice. This is not very different from language evolution/change.

Arun

Arun,
Thanks a lot for the lucid explanation. Thanks for your time.

I sincerely hope that musicologists brainstorm what you have said about 'classification of ragas as janyas of a mela' and define boundaries which are acceptable to and practiced by all. Otherwise, CM also might go the Hindustani 'gharana' way where every gharana seems to have their own definitions.

Regarding theory following practice, it is nice till it does not degenerate into what is termed as 'pidgin' in English.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 06 Jun 2015, 09:54

Arun
Dearie O Dearie.... How nicely you write

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 06 Jun 2015, 10:37

I sincerely hope that musicologists brainstorm what you have said about 'classification of ragas as janyas of a mela' and define boundaries which are acceptable to and practiced by all. Otherwise, CM also might go the Hindustani 'gharana' way where every gharana seems to have their own definitions. .

I sincerely hope that there is a better understanding of what gharanas are about . And that these are times where Science looks upto the Arts ("rigourless" to the naked senses) for a fuzzy way of looking at things .

Boundaries , Acceptable to all , Practiced by All , Quick ways of teaching , Right / Wrong / My Only way of teaching . OMG .
Let me get back to my Deshkar-Bhopali-Shudh Kalyan , Marwa-Puriya-Sohini twilight zones

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 06 Jun 2015, 16:33

varsha,
I fully subscribe to your anxiety. There are two ways of looking at it. To take an anology, Sri Rama is called Maryada Purushottama - for reason that he defined new set of limits (maryada) to human conduct. The other way of looking is that he did not transcend the limits set. It takes a yuga purusha to redefine limits - maryada. Now apply this to music as an art. There are only a few yuga purushas who can redefine the limits - like purandara dAsa and tyAgarAja - others who consider art to be simply an art remain within the set limits - they call it sampradaya. Music is more than art. I beg to define a practitioner of art as a person who 'uses' art for 'yoga kshema'. For yuga purushas, art is not practitioner's art, but an end in itself for expression of ultimate human excellence - 'Self expression' - a capital 'S' -

nIvu lEkayE tanuvulu niratamugA naDucunu
nIvu lEkayE taruvulu nikkamugA molucunu
nIvu lEkayE vAnalu nityamugA kuriyunu
nIvu lEka tyAgarAju nI guNamulaneTu pADunu (nArada gAna lOla) (aThANa)

In my post, I was considering the art practitioners and not yuga purushas. Experimentation with art is the prerogative of every practitioner of art. But without knowing the purpose of the music, any experimentation will become only a cacophony. Who can stop the march of 'freedom of expression'? But not every experimentation becomes the crown jewel - most end up in WPB of human evolution. 'To solve a problem, one should become the problem itself' - an expression used in a TED video by a child mathematical 'genius' - who otherwise has learning disability. 'enda kuppaiyil enda mANikkamO'!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 06 Jun 2015, 18:57

VG,
Perfectly logical question!
But I would say music has less logic and more convention. In CM, we have seen the rigour of the 72 raga scheme and now have raga lists with Arohana and Avarohana of scales. But ragas transcend scales and are guided by prayogas - the practice and convention of it. And music is charming as it is... No need for mathematical rigour, as far as I am concerned.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 Jun 2015, 19:49

Thanks varsha!

vgv sir - rsachi has answered what I would have

. IMO, it is not the job of musicologists to define boundaries. In fact I do not think anyone has that authority (even if they and their fans/followers presume so). They are more like documentarians, who look into practices and explain them, and also then extract rules/patterns that explain the practice. IMO it doesn't mean you elevate them to laws and thus use it to prohibit deviation (evolution) from those rules (there are major exceptions like the theory that led to 72 melas, which in turn led to formation of new so called "Scalar" ragas).

To take a more iconoclastic view, IMO we need to even take this whole elevation to sastriya music (done in past historical works), thus leading to the notion that certain rules were codified by the Supreme (and thus not subject to change), with a whole fist (not a pinch

) of salt.

Music grows and evolves constantly and that does cause its boundaries change. But in an ironic way, the people who are most resistant to change are also needed, and as important as the people who are on the leading edge of change. It is kind of a checks-and-balance thing, which keeps the rate of evolution somehow "bounded".

About the question "how do we stop from degenerating completely if there are no rules", I humbly submit, that it is entirely within the control of our own minds. Many today think music has degenerated. Many thought so in 1930s. Many probably in 18th century as Tyagaraja was revolutionizing music. That side is always there, like the other side who is mesmerized of the then prevailing music.

Arun

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 06 Jun 2015, 21:06

Is it possibly like 'as it were' which is idiomatic, not grammatical? TMK has said there are non-scale based ragas. NSG has said how 'p' is brought in by a prayoga even in ragas that do not have 'p' in it. He gave a demonstration of two prayogas one without 'p' and another with 'p', both sounding similar. The talk of knowing the ragaswarupa is perhaps because the mere arohana-avarohana does not exhaust a raga.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 07 Jun 2015, 07:13

quote]I sincerely hope that musicologists brainstorm what you have said about 'classification of ragas as janyas of a mela' and define boundaries which are acceptable to and practiced by all.....
For yuga purushas, art is not practitioner's art, but an end in itself for expression of ultimate human excellence....[/quote]

A dry but very useful introduction to what concerns you here .The story of two yugapurushas of our times .
https://global.oup.com/academic/product ... in&lang=en&#

Elsewhere we talk of approximations and not-necessarily-linear progression from folk roots to present day rAga structures.
Here is a priceless interview with BGAK which touches upon few aspects . Most importantly the fact that it takes generations of top level practitioners to keep experimenting and refining a muse into what can NOW BE CANNED INTO A TIN WITH A RAGA LABEL
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/7h3ulvf ... erview.mp3

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 07 Jun 2015, 07:14

I sincerely hope that musicologists brainstorm what you have said about 'classification of ragas as janyas of a mela' and define boundaries which are acceptable to and practiced by all.....
For yuga purushas, art is not practitioner's art, but an end in itself for expression of ultimate human excellence....

A dry but very useful introduction to what concerns you here .The story of two yugapurushas of our times .
https://global.oup.com/academic/product ... in&lang=en&#

Elsewhere we talk of approximations and not-necessarily-linear progression from folk roots to present day rAga structures.
Here is a priceless interview with BGAK which touches upon few aspects . Most importantly the fact that it takes generations of top level practitioners to keep experimenting and refining a muse into what can NOW BE CANNED INTO A TIN WITH A RAGA LABEL
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/7h3ulvf ... erview.mp3

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 07 Jun 2015, 16:03

Varsha,
I do not get the thrust of your first link. From whatever little information that is available from the link, I believe that we are entering into a controversial and opaque area of politics of music. Therefore, I end my post in this thread here.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 07 Jun 2015, 17:47

From whatever little information that is available from the link, I believe that we are entering into a controversial and opaque area of politics of music

The reference to dryness was to the political part

And hence that was not the thrust of my post .Bhatkhande and VD Paluskars work was .
Going back to your opinions on going the hindusthani way , my effort was to show it was not an ugly free thinkers path .

carnaticwriter · Post by **carnaticwriter** » 08 Jun 2015, 09:59

Arun has really summed up the response beautifully.

I'd just like to add what my teacher Prof BK tries to drill (somewhat successfully) into my head every session: if one tries to decode the raga swarupa (consolidation of raga phrases) of a raga in terms of swaras, it'll only be chaotic and 'illogical'.

I think beyond swaras or notating a raga lies the form of the raga that is the raga swarupa which needs to listened to carefully to imbibe and adopt. Still fuzzy in that area, though.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jun 2015, 16:40

Isn't it all a matter of perception that there is a rAga (with Arohana and Avarohana), there is a rAga swarupa, there are swaras, there are swara sthAnas? Though these perceptions are valid in themselves, yet they are not absolute. They are valid in themselves to a particular segment of society who are accustomed to it. (In the second link provided by Varsha, the speaker relates this to the pahAdi dhun which sounds like an apaswara, yet it is sweet sounding for that region's auditory sensibilities.) Like there are shades and shades of grey, but human perception is limited to certain intensities only. And that too is not universal in nature. I have seen a video where the aborigines of Africa were not able to perceive certain colours because they did not have the need for such distinction. This is also being discussed in another thread about the limitations of human perception. In yet another thread, we discussed about the limitations of human auditory perception - in that it recognises a swara or a swara sthana only when there is a 'stay' in that sthana for a particular duration. That does not mean that the intervening swaras are not vocalised - they are heard-but-not-perceived. You cannot actually jump from one swara to another but only glide over the whole range - the nAda - the underlying reality of all sounds - which gets differentiated from the point of view of human auditory perception. Yogis seem to perceive even unuttered (anAhata) sound. If we delve more, we seem to enter into much deeper philosophy and psychic centres and stages from/through where the sound (nAda) originates and pass through before it becomes audible - (parA - paSyanti - madhyamA - vaikharI). There must be corresponding auditory centres and stages too. I wonder at the Indian (human)? wisdom which perceived (realised)? these before the sapta swaras were even 'discovered'.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 09 Jun 2015, 10:46

A TURKEY is more occult and awful than all the angels and archangels. In so far as God has partly revealed to us an angelic world, He has partly told us what an angel means. But God has never told us what a turkey means. And if you go and stare at a live turkey for an hour or two, you will find by the end of it that the enigma has rather increased than diminished. GKC

Same for raga I suppose
And if you go and stare at a raga for a day or two, you will find by the end of it that the enigma has rather increased than diminished.

carnaticwriter · Post by **carnaticwriter** » 09 Jun 2015, 13:48

Finding a raga's personality in a bunch of swaras forming different types of patterns may just be the tip of an iceberg. Factors such as raga bhava, short and long notes/phrases, modulation, etc., may need more excavation. But, if one is satisfied with swaras/notes, then, like the African aborgines, one doesn't need to go further. Normal human auditory perception can go beyond just 'stay' of swaras to oscialltion, modulation, fast briga patterns and identify subtle shruthis (I'm still in the process of sharpening my ears to these) too. To enjoy a raga, one doesn't need to hear the unheard - the Anahata or be a Yogi. More than a matter of perception, I think it is one of what one wants.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 09 Jun 2015, 17:00

My post is less about this wonderful world limited by our perceptions but more about the perception-unlimited and how wonderful that would be. In essence, turkey and angel are only a matter of grade.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 10 Jun 2015, 23:59

When the melakartha system came along and arohana avarohana started defining a raga, it completely reverse geared the very process of creation of a raga. Rather than finding a distinct identity from musical phrases and then crystallizing into swaras, it rather became the opposite altogether - start with a set pattern of notes, add gamaka, cook it in imagination and over time -- Raga soup.

The present melakartha system is "only" about 350 years old or so. In fact Thyagaraja and Dikshitar followed 2 different melakartha schemes and since then the M&A department of CM history has been quite active, which unfortunately resulted in us losing quite a few of the ragas and the prayogas of the Dikshitar school over time. I think our brains have become hardwired into seeing ragas from this perspective alone.

And then there is this arohana avarohana trend, that "seeks" to churn out as many ragas as the number of scales that can be derived using 7 notes -- creating a raga overpopulation problem. It takes more than a mere scale to make a raga -- much as a mere skeleton can't alone account for what makes us human beings.

In fact this system of "janya" and "mela" is a truly strange misnomer as many so called "janya" ragas have existed and evolved for several centuries prior to the discovery of the 72 scale possibilities. In fact 48 out of 72 melakartha scales were mathematically inferred from scale combinations a couple of centuries ago and it is only from the 18th-19th centuries on that these "math derived" scales (which were only scales until composers started composing in them) even started their evolution into full fledged ragas and I say, they have indeed come a very very long way since then.

However, it must be remembered - notes are more solid and crystallized and ragas formed out of notes do show signs of the "straight jacketing" effect caused by their arohana avarohana -- vakra ragas show an even more pronounced effect as starting from a twisted arohanam and avarohanam means you are instantly restricted from experimenting with all possible combinations of swaras. And if the arohanam avarohanam derivation is overdone, it will lead to a raga overpopulation problem -- where each scale can never truly expand into a raga without treading on some other raga's shoes.

The world of abstract phrases is much more fluid and subtle -- it is never so easy to derive a raga straight out of phrases and any raga that does do so will go through a tremendous amount of experimentation and evolution before it settles into a distinct identity. Many ragas like Kambhoji or even Bhairavi may never have existed had ragas been derived via the melakartha system. This very process gives them a truly incredible scope for elaboration and over time they acquire a truly unique personality very different from the "swara derived" ragas.

I would even go further and compare older phrase derived ragas to ice sculptures made directly out of water in any shape or form, --- while the arohanam avarohanam derived ragas are made out of <Cough Cough> ... LEGO BLOCKS (!!) which then slowly try to add on the curves. We have been building ragas out of lego blocks for a couple of hundred years now. Why? Well as we all know, building out of lego blocks is definitely easier. Although you can do marvelous things with Lego blocks if you are creative enough, it is different from painting out of raw paint on a blank canvas. Still, both are art once the creative genius manifests.

We need to sit down and see the various types of ragas (based on just how they were created) and how old they really are before attempting to fit them into Arohanams and avarohanams and melas. Just to know how many different systems of raga evolution have existed in history and what was their own approach to creating ragas would offer profound insights on this entity we call "The Raaga".

carnaticwriter · Post by **carnaticwriter** » 11 Jun 2015, 08:47

Srinath Sir

If there were a smily for bowing, I'd have clicked it rightaway - very comprehensive and insightful response.

Just a couple of doubts: 1. Wld you say that there may have been a Western influence for the evolution of the melakartha system? 2. What exactly wld you mean by abstract phrases? - is it something like fluid ones which don't stay at any particular swara? or phrases with shruthis like the oscillating ri of saveri.

When I practice, I want to get the phrases of ragas like Bhiaravi, Saveri, etc., right and only now my eyes are slowly opening into looking at them from the point of fluidity in swara/shruthi movement.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 11 Jun 2015, 08:48

What a wonderful post by Srinath !

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 Jun 2015, 09:01

As always.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 11 Jun 2015, 09:34

My second

DearieODearie What a lovely post

for this topic

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 11 Jun 2015, 09:37

Carnaticwriter, I have a feeling abstract phrases would be phrases drawn from concrete prayogas as seen in compositions and Other instances of common usage. The removal of tala and laya elements specific to the compositions from the prayogas may bring about the abstraction. Please do correct me if I have misunderstood.

I think he is talking about phrases that contribute, through tradition or convention, to the construction of a raga swarupa

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 11 Jun 2015, 15:54

Srinath,
Very insightful. I am indebted.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Jun 2015, 21:19

Srinath, well written, thanks for that. Aro/Ava is indeed a model which is reverse engineered from the raga. As with any model, it is not the reality, it is only an approximate portrayal which serves a purpose. A limited purpose. Abstraction is another word. When you create an abstract of a book, you leave out a lot of the stuff. It is there to serve a purpose, a limited purpose, and it should not be taken to be the book or to represent the full book.

(the word 'abstract' has two meanings which are often confusing. Something abstract is one whose form is not easy to visualize, see, describe etc. Raga is such an abstract thing. An abstraction, as used in the sense of 'abstract of a book' is the other meaning. Here we leave out a lot of details and create a 'model' of the real thing. The confusion goes into high gear when we create an abstraction for an abstract thing like a raga!! )

One thing that Arun taught us before and also in this thread is the (Arohana, Avarohana) of a raga does NOT define the sequence of swaras that are acceptable for that raga. Ranganayaki says the same thing as well. That is, the set of swaras in the arohana is not there to specify what swara follows a swara. It is actually a specification of whether you can ascend from that swara or not ( for swaras in the Arohana ) and whether you can descend from that swara or not ( for swaras in the Avarohana ). Since the typical practice is to sing all the swaras in the Aro/Ava in a sequence while learning the raga, we get the distorted impression that they specify what swara you ascend ( or descend ) to. That is really not the case. I have a feeling that this misconception is very widely held. Think of this use of those words as just syntax.

Once that concept is clear, another befuddlement is also removed. If you read the description of gamakas, there are two gamakas called Arohana and Avarohana. Here they really mean the sequence, an ascending sequence and a descending sequence. This is not any dry grammar per se (syntax) but they are vehicles for expressing meaning and usage ( semantics and pragmatics ). Characteristic phrases of a raga of course consists of ascending and descending sequences. Not all such sequences that are allowed by the syntax above are part of a raga.

In this context, a vakra technique can be thought of as a 'composite gamaka' consisting of 'an ascending sequence AND a descending sequence' as a unit and a vakra phrase itself is not grammar but a characteristic through which the raga expresses itself. That is, just like straight Aro/Ava gamaka is a building block for writing down the characteristic phrases of a raga, a vakra is a building block for the same purpose.

To reiterate the point, no matter which building block is used, they are all reverse engineered sequences from the raga. Raga itself does not care for any of these. These are there for our benefit to get a grasp of the raga. ( they are abstractions of an abstract thing! )

If we had held to these two separate views of Arohana and Avarohana, I think we could have avoided that confusion and moved the vakra related matters to the section that talks about characteristic phrases of the raga rather than the top line Aro/Ava title.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Jun 2015, 21:32

I would like to be iconoclastic again, and throw some cold water into this love-fest for old, "non-scalar"/"phrase-oriented" ragas, or perhaps the mela-system bashing. I have heard it often and I don't buy it wholesale.

Sure, I do like these non-scalar ones too but almost ALL music we hear and enjoy today (as well as for most of 20th century at least), were composed in the last 300 years, and the four of the major six (todi, sankarabharanam, kalyani and kharaharapriya) are melas. Of these one is completely absent in venkatamakhin's work, and two (todi and kalyani) explicitly do not enjoy major status (they are deemed somewhat minor). This implies that one could argue that most of the evolution of these 4 we enjoy so much today happened post mela-system introduction, and no one questions that these aren't major, major ragas in our system. There are also indicators that todi itself was quite "different" (not as gamaka heavy) as recent as 100 years ago.

Sure todi isnt simply run up and down the scale but it doesn't employ any special vakra status/rules with swaras that isn't representable by aro/avaro (yet a aro/avaro certainly doesn't tell its whole story either). It simply not only had enough soak time, but also probably has something innate in its specific combination of swaras (as well as a magnetic influence on practitioners) that allowed for very highly refined evolution. (but also want to note that certain gamakas say of r1, start at r2 - so it does go beyond).

So let us not (yet again) dream up an utopian system that we think must have existed before 17th century, that was pristine and clear off the degenerative influence of "mere" "scalar" ragas. I do not think it was quite that way.

I certainly do like the charm and the concept of the non-scalar ragas e.g. natakuranji and sahana but not all aren't necessarily that ancient if you go by mention in historical works. But you also have say a raga like mohanam which has existed for quite some time (not necessarily named so) - just 5 notes up/down but soak-time has given it more shape. You also have ragas like say dhanyasi, abheri (both versions), and heck even saveri, which are like todi who do have an underlying structure representable in aro/avaro, but have more to them. Is it because they somehow defy that structure? Or is it because of enough soak time? Or is it because besides that they have some other X factor that does allow that soak time to lead to high refinement (IMO it is probably the last)

In other words, the charm/worth of ragas (which BTW, to me is always subjective even coming from the mouth/pen of a experienced musician/rasika/musicologist) need not be classified based on whether "is it phrase based" vs "is it mainly based on aro/avaro". To me. simply dismiss or lower-the-worth any raga whose structure is entirely capturable from aro/avarro or one that is purely derived from a mela system is intellectually lazy, and simply prejudicial.

Arun

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 12 Jun 2015, 01:01

Reading the posts before ArunK, i did not get the impression that scalar/mela ragas were inferior (TMK may hold that view). I thought it was trying to explain vakra ragas, ragas that do not get expressed quite in an aro-avaro scale. The explanation appears to have come in that context that any aro-avaro is a map and not the territory, without even obliquely implying anything about the standard of a raga that seems amenable to an orderly grammar.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 12 Jun 2015, 20:42

So let us not (yet again) dream up an utopian system that we think must have existed before 17th century, that was pristine and clear off the degenerative influence of "mere" "scalar" ragas. I do not think it was quite that way.

No system is utopic or perfect. But come on, if Google did a "raga analytics" algorithm, I am sure the first thing they would go for is to analyze it's ascending and descending sequences and try to identify it and I will not be surprised if in the future you type "Thodi" and you get links to Youtube where the raga name isn't in the video title or description or comments. Then you'd probably try to analyze it's gamakas. Speaking of which, there has been a kind of "gamaka explosion" (comparable to the Cambrian explosion if I might say) in the last 200 years or so and I for one don't think that Thodi as sung 300 years ago is remotely close to what it is today.

All systems have their benefits and limitations. Yesterday I tried singing several phrases with gamakas and try to discover something new I (think) haven't heard. I ended up with some mix-mashing of quite a few ragas, but then immediately I noticed some refreshingly different possibilities coming up. Complex patterns, gamaka variations, phrases with bhashanga notes (in all sorts of proportions to the point where musicologists would give up trying to find one mela to put it under) immediately sprung up. But...

There were issues. The trouble (and this is BIG trouble) is putting all sorts of ideas into a coherent and distinctive enough form that you can call it a "well evolved distinctive raga" -- it's bewildering. I have no idea how nature manages to create so many varieties of species from what -- Atoms ? Frequencies?

When you try taking combinations of swaras, it's easier to find a form, but still, swaras also have huge variety and it is always a rather difficult exercise trying to express raga phrases with lots of gamakas in the form of swaras. At least you have some parts to build with here.

With an arohanam - avarohanam or starting from swaras, you have "easy form" -- it's an instant template and you can always go and build beyond it if it is not too knotted or complicated and it's not at all a difficult thing to just come up with a new scale. But in this, there is something which one has to keep in mind -- take for example the chittaswaras in "Jagadanandakaraka". The use of Nattai can fit quite a few aro-avaro scales like these:

1) S R3 G3 M1 P N3 S S N3 P M1 G3 M1 R3 S
2) S R3 G3 M1 P N3 S S N3 P M1 R3 S
3) S R3 G3 M1 P S S N3 P M1 R3 S
4) S R3 G3 M1 P N P S S N3 P M1 G3 P M1 R3 S

So where do you draw the line? In ragas with twisted scales, you explicitly imply that you cannot have any other possibilities whereas in straight scales there is a possibility of both straight and twisted phrases. In fact if someone actually created 4 ragas out of the above 4 scales, we can take it for granted that each raga will be limited in it's scope as compared to the original Nattai because each scale cannot "expand" or evolve for long before it runs into another scale and will have to restrain itself. We have seen Harikambhoji run into a similar issue.

And, none of the 4 scales can describe the original Nattai raga completely, and if all 4 existed as separate ragas, none of them could become comparable in scope to Nattai because to do that, they would all have to merge into one raga some day. The raga therefore includes, but also lies beyond the range of the scale.

Arohanam Avarohanams generally don't include Jantas in the scale (it is by default understood as a gamaka), but then there is Darbar with it's G, G, RS which if it were a biological species might have 2 hearts or it might be a tree with 2 trunks. So how is one going to explain that?

So while the aro-avaro system gives easy templates to build a raga on, sometimes (if overdone) it gives the problem of "too much form" and it has the potential to churn out tons and tons of scales en masse. If ragas are created recklessly, we will have a raga overpopulation problem to deal with -- it will be almost as if we've started mass producing "factory made" ragas, as opposed to the unique exclusivity of a custom made hypercar whose value never depreciates (yes), worthy of a spot in "history's greatest". Speaking of supercars, you can see that creating a unique one isn't that different from making a raga at the heart of it. There are factory made violins and then there are Stradivarius and Guarneri and the best of modern violins.

That is not to say that a raga derived from a scale cannot be great -- It can indeed be just as great. But it must go through a similar amount of growth and evolution and branching or else the shoot will never become the tree. The major criticism of the mela and aro-avaro system has less to do with the system and more to do with our understanding of what it can and cannot do and our dependence on it without that understanding.

The reverse process on the other hand, has too much (nearly unlimited) possibility -- it's too open and it needs to be given unique form(s) from a sea of phrases and presents to us the task of reinventing civilization from the wheel, but if one had the creative powers to do it, one could create a whole planet of ragas out of phrases (which fact of the matter is, we have done today with the help of God knows how many geniuses). It's all too easy to see the pluses and minuses of creating in a void where we must ourselves create the questions and the answers.

A calculative genius (lakshana oriented) might prefer the former method while an intuitive genius might prefer the latter (lakshya oriented). The problem happens when calculated creation becomes "mass production" and when intuitive creation gets lost without direction in the jungle.

Somewhere in between, the two processes must meet and come to a settlement and that settlement will be different for each and every raga and even from one person to another's understanding. This subjectivity is not necessarily a defect -- after all the most important part of the art is the subject who experiences the art. This balance need not be fixed over time either if nature is anything to learn from. As LGJ once put it in a lec dem, he was so inspired by nature because "Nature is God's art".

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 13 Jun 2015, 00:09

I have referred to an interesting book on 'Grammar of Carnatic Music' - by KG Vijayakrishnan
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25597

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Jun 2015, 01:15

Srinath.

Yes - I do agree that the explosion of ragas does mean each existing raga has somewhat smaller "localized space" so to speak. Whether that happened because of mela system leading to an easier path to form new ragas (i can see the logic), or is simply an inevitability no matter what the system is that allows for new ragas (more ragas => total space is smaller), I do not know.

Arun

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Jun 2015, 09:50

paN jAti irendozhiya vErillai kaNakkiDAtOr periyOr kaNakkiTTOr izhikulatOr

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Jun 2015, 10:26

Bhairavi and bEgada were begging to be discovered - as looking backwards from mELa perspective they exploit anuvAdi/samvAdi from two mELas. lakshyA or the blind watch maker is perfectly capable of stumbling on them. The vakra sampUrNam only helps the case even better. There is a publication on implied samvaditvA of gamakas also in music research site.

karaharapriyA seems to have been developed using virtuosity of instrumentalists - and does it lend itself to the famed 3 minute gist or summary ?

That makes Bhairavi which overcomes deficiencies of two mElas - the rAga of carnatic music and koluvai the song of it - where tyAgaraja ( whoever of his descendents that polished it) puts to shame his two other viSrAnti obsessed counterparts just on how the syllable time gaps proceed.

This is a music of the bones not the ears and some of the faculties we had it in us as we roamed the forests escaping dangers of falling rocks and trees.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 13 Jun 2015, 10:36

There isn't that much of a raga explosion yet. I only said there is the potential to manufacture scales en masse with today's system. When we are still discovering the ragas that we have (which are already so many to remember). The melakartha ragas are still evolving and while we have decided to sing the G3 of Shankarabharanam plain and oscillate the G3 of Kalyani, many other melas still have questions like these to answer.

For one I can say that Bhairavi seems to have finally hit a limit in how far it can lean on it's D2 note without crossing over into Manjhi or Kharaharapriya's territory.

Again with regards to vakra phrases in ragas, we can't truly define hard and fast rules or call it a disadvantage either -- the phrases are critical in defining the identity of ragas like Bhairavi, or Varali or Mukhari and with simple arohana - avarohana derivation, we would probably not have those ragas. While S G3 R1 M1 can be sung as a Dhattu in Mayamalavagowla, the G2 R2 M1 phrase is actually a critical phrase to identify Mukhari and a close raga like Bhairavi sharing the same notes will not use this.

@shankarank I do not believe "Bala Gopala" is inferior in any way to "Koluvaiyunnade"

Shankarabharanam uses a D2 N3 S - D2, P and G3 M1 P - (G3) R2, S --- but then so does Garudadhwani. And Garudadhwani is a surprisingly scalar raga with a lot of plain notes and simple slides that we do not mistake for Shankarabharanam. There are subtleties and more subtleties.

Evolution itself slowly defines and redefines a raga's domain -- it's a self correcting equilibrium.

@carnaticwriter , I only now noticed what you had asked. First of all, even "Western music" (not only WCM, but a whole bunch of genres) has been evolving too. If you take WCM, I say it has been evolving at least since the Greeks and Sumerians and there would definitely have been cross cultural exchanges over time -- but I believe the mela system is an original product of "raga research and analytics".

Regarding abstract phrases, you are right. I feel that "fluid" is a better term to use. The highest form of abstraction in music is in fact -- silence! And from there comes out all musical creations.