(Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

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shibi
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Joined: 11 Apr 2010, 21:06

(Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by shibi »

What are the Carnatic raaga(s) (apart from the story of Amrutavarshini producing rains) that evoke the feeling of monsoon, rain, thunder, downpour? Hindustani music has this raagam called Malhar (and it's variants) commonly associated with rains and monsoon. Does Carnatic music have something similar / equivalent?

arasi
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by arasi »

vEga vAhini is somewhat close, perhaps? At least in name?

Rsachi
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by Rsachi »

Arasi, vEgavAhinI would fit the name of river. Monsoonfed or snowfed, rushing to her lover, the ocean! But anoyher name for her is Chakravaka, the bird pining for the beloved:

चक्रवाक

m. the चक्र bird (Anas Casarca ; the couples are supposed to be separated and to mourn during night) Rigveda...

RaviSri
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Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 11:31

Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by RaviSri »

another name for her is Chakravaka
It is not. Both, though allied ragas, have certain differences. Otherwise, if they were the same, why would Thyagaraja compose in both chakravAkam as well as in vEgavAhini?

bhakthim dehi
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Actually Tyagarajayya krithi callaga natho was not set to vegavahini. It was converted to the mentioned raga to be in suit with the lexicon Sangrahachudamani!!

RaviSri
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by RaviSri »

Then what raga was challaga nAtO composed in? And changed by whom?

bhakthim dehi
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by bhakthim dehi »

According to Valajapet tradition, the scale goes like this: srgmpds sndpmgrs. Though KVS says the scale for this krithi as srgmdnds sndpmgrs, phrases like mpm seems to occur. With this evidence we can only conclude it to be a Janya of chakravakam.
How we determine who changed this? Ravisri, can you suggest a method to point a person who changed this?

HarishankarK
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by HarishankarK »

shibi wrote:Does Carnatic music have something similar / equivalent?
Madhyamavathi
Sri Ragam
Amrutha Behag (GNB Creation)
Sarangamalhar (HMB creation)
Ramapriya ( Ilayaraja has used this Ragam for a rainy sequence beautiful song. It really matches the mood- Song is Neelakuyile from movie Magudi)

Vegavahini/ Chakravaham does not evoke rainy mood.

RaviSri
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by RaviSri »

With this evidence we can only conclude it to be a Janya of chakravakam.
How, when Venkatanakhi has vEgavAhini as the 16th mELa and Dikshitar has composed 'vINApustaka dhArinIm in it? This so called sangaraha chUDAmaNi's sampUrNa mELAs designed like a ladder is rather unscientific when it comes to actual delineation of many ragas. Scales like karaharapriyA, kIravANi, chakravAkam etc., were taken by Thyagraja and converted to pleasurable rAgas. Where were these ragas before? Only as mere dry scales. The Wallajapet list which I have been referring to has challaganatO in vEgavahini. I can't imagine anyone changing the song from chakravAkam to vEgavAhini. The important difference between the two ragas is that in vEgavAhini M is an important swara. it is so in R.K.Srikantan's rendition of 'challaganAtO, though the rendition is not perfectly vEgavAhini and smacks of chakravAkam in certain places.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Let me be clear. I dont want to enter into an argument regarding the perfectness of sampoorna or asmpoorna mela scheme; or to call Vegavahini as a mela or a janya of Chakravakam.
By quoting " we can only conclude it to be a janya of Chakravakam", I meant the raga of the kriti callagnatho can be considered as one of the janya of Chakravakam with the mentioned arohanam avarohana kramam ( acc to Valajapet school). When the given scale itself does not confirm with the lakshana of Vegavahini ( as given in Chudamani or SSP), how will I accept it to be called as Vegavahini? On the other side, since it is a shadava-sampoorna, it cannot be placed under Chakravakam. Now, I hope my statement is clear.
To conclude, no one changed this krithi from vegavahini to chakravakam or viceversa. It has been wrongly named as Vegavahini by a person(s)who knows only about Chudamani and totally unaware of other lexicons. But, unfortunately, this name got standardized.
Scales like karaharapriyA, kIravANi, chakravAkam etc., were taken by Thyagraja and converted to pleasurable rAgas.
Not only he gave melodic shape to these ragas, he also gave life to some skeletons present in the lexicons. I have Chenchukambodhi to support my statement. This is not mentioned in Chudamani, Sarvartha sara sangrahamu, Mahabharatha Chudamani or Raga lakshana manuscript. Needless to say, it (Chenchukambohi) was not mentioned by Venkatamkhi, Shahaji or Tulaja. It is very much clear that he referred to some other lexicon(s) to compose a krithi in this ragam. ( I can cite many examples like this).

Unless we get to see a lexicon(s) which gives a name to this scale srgmpds sndpmgrs under Chakravakam we cannot assign a specific raga to this krithi.

RaviSri
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by RaviSri »

Unless we get to see a lexicon(s) which gives a name to this scale srgmpds sndpmgrs under Chakravakam we cannot assign a specific raga to this krithi.
When we talk of lexicons we assume that Thyagaraja must have consulted some book or the other to compose. I dont believe in this. Scholars like K.V.Ramachandran have opined that the Sangraha Chudamani is a latter day work and it and the Wallajapet father son duo gave names for the ragas of Thyagaraja kritis, i.e., those that they could not place. Such ragas include ranjani, pUrNashaDjam, saraswati manOhari, rasALi, saraswati and many, many other melodies which didn't have any song in it before Thyagaraja. These and many others, including KVR considered these melodies to be Thyagaraja's own creations.

I also personally don't rely on just scales to determine a raga. A raga is much more than mere scale. It has its ranjaka swaras, prayogas, mUrchanas etc.

And finally, a raga like vEgavAhini cannot be just limited to a scale as witness Dikshitr's maaterpeice. I personally believe that challaga nAtO is in vEgavAhini. I can discern shades of Dikshitar's vEgavAhini in it. The Wallajapet duo and KVS were not above making mistakes, supposing certain things and making up stories. I also personally do not take the Wallajapet notations and KVS's notations in toto. I have my reservations.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by bhakthim dehi »

When we talk of lexicons we assume that Thyagaraja must have consulted some book or the other to compose. I dont believe in this. Scholars like K.V.Ramachandran have opined that the Sangraha Chudamani is a latter day work
I too agree that there is a possibility that he might have created some new ragas. I never said anywhere that Chudamani ia an oldest treatise and is to be relied on.
the Wallajapet father son duo gave names for the ragas of Thyagaraja kritis, i.e., those that they could not place.
KVR and others always blamed Taccur brothers to be involved in naming apurva ragas. But you are the first one to blame Valajapet father-son duo. Is this based on any evidence or one of your subjective comments? Even Prof Sambamurthy has mentioned Sri KK Ramaswamy Bhagavathar (grandson of Sri Venkataramana Bhagavathar) has regretted (to him) that the names of many apurva krithis were wrongly named by others and he too accepted (KKR) without any repentence.
Such ragas include ranjani, pUrNashaDjam, saraswati manOhari, rasALi, saraswati and many, many other melodies which didn't have any song in it before Thyagaraja.These and many others, including KVR considered these melodies to be Thyagaraja's own creations.
It is true that Sri Thyagaraja was the pioneer in getting these ragas into our system. Just because we dont get to see any compositions in these ragams , can we conclude those were his own creations (I am not belittling the imaginative power of the composer by saying this)?
Atleast there ragas find its presence in Chudamani. But, there are others like Chenchukambodhi, Jayamanohari et al, for which we cannot point a source. We can consider only two possibilities: one, his own creation and second, taken from some other unidentified lexicon(s). Second possibility is not an impossible event. Shruthinata is an example. It is not found in Chudamani or any other lexicons known to us. It was located in one of the manuscripts in Sarasvathi mahal library!! It is always wise to think some unknown quotient exist in the world (any field it may pertain to).
And finally, a raga like vEgavAhini cannot be just limited to a scale as witness Dikshitr's maaterpeice. I personally believe that challaga nAtO is in vEgavAhini.
I never tried to argue a raga need to faithfully adhere to its scale. But this rule is applicable only for time tested ragas and not for ragas like amruthavahini, chenchukambodhi and the unknown raga of this krithi callaganatho. To cite an example for the former, though sggm, sgm is only seen in the arohana of Hindolavasantha, grgm is allowed;but not rgmp (i can cite several examples like this). But these kind of ragas are with rich oral and textual tradition which cannot be applied to ragas like Amrutavahini (puliya paarthu poonai soodu pottu konda madiri).

Vegavahini, predominantly takes sm, but occasional srgm is not prohibited. Any which way, dns , pdns, pdnd are all allowed. In Callaganatho, Valajapet version, there is srgm, pds and there is no sm. In KVS version (obviously from an Umayalpuram source), only dnd is seen. phrases like mpd are seen. Again it is only srgm and not sm, characteristic of Vegavahini. I dont want to comment on the present versions as they all are mangled and mutilated.
I can discern shades of Dikshitar's vEgavAhini in it. I personally believe that challaga nAtO is in vEgavAhini
I am not arguing against subjective and personal choices. If you feel happy calling it as Vegavahini, it is your personal, probably a biased opinion. But musicologically, the older, near correct versions cannot be called as Vegavahini.
The Wallajapet duo and KVS were not above making mistakes, supposing certain things and making up stories. I also personally do not take the Wallajapet notations.
Your view can be considered only if you read and more importantly analyse the notations in a scientific and unbiased manner.

RaviSri
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by RaviSri »

Since you have called my opinions as biased andd subjective, I don't want to say anything further.But, only that, there is such a thing as discerning listening for decades, learning both from a great paramparA and from notations for many years. I personally don't like to argue anymore on theory. I prefer to utilise the time singing instead.

Only one thing. Wallajapet Krishnaswami Bhagavatar and his son had expanded Thyagaraja's biography into hagiography and incorporated incredible incidents in the bard's life. That's proof enough of their "objectivity". They were not above making up. I have also been told by T.Sankaran that Jalatarangam Ramanayya Chettiar himself that there were a lot of 'mistakes' in the raga descriptions of the father-son duo. I rest my case here.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: (Carnatic) raga(s) evoking the feeling of monsoon

Post by bhakthim dehi »

I never expected you will take my comments personally. I apologise if you are hurt in any manner. I want to say a thing here. In music research, every single evidence must be viewed without any presumtions. This is what I meant.
TSParthasarathy has clearly translated the biography written by the father son duo. No hagiography there. Actually those incredible stories were introduced by harikatha exponents . Since you have your own reservations about the duo I don't want to sayanything more.
I have personally perused those manuscripts; to my knowledge raga lakshanas were genuinely portrayed in those versions. Anyone interested can do that and sense the credibility of my statement.

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